Guild Wars 2

Hello.

I play WvW and sPvP both on equal base. I started with a thief main when this game was launched and decided to try out different classes. Now I finally played any class with almost any spec i could get my hands on. Currently I switched my main character to a mesmer (stealthy phantasm mesmer) and I have good success against almost any class/spec.

There is just 1 spec i never managed to win against unless my foes were complete morons: the P/D thief. I even played that spec for myself to see if there is a weak spot, without any success.

I’m clueless and can’t seem to find an answer. Maybe some more P/D veterans could give me some insight on this?

Run s/x with a high health pool. He’ll either give up or die trying every time.

I find mesmers with S/P and GS annoying no matter what build I play on thief.
Never played mesmer, but I’d say something like.

Phantasmal Duelist > Magic Bullet > Blurred Frenzy
Phantasmal Berserker > Illusionary Wave the BP>HS combo

Use clones as shield from backstab.
Also try save and use stealth after the thief stealths, and while in stealth
be hard to predict, I’ve too many times been able to pull off successful backstabs
on stealthed mesmers because they usually stealth and go and stand on the middle
of the capture point turned towards the area where I stealthed.

Also, you need lots of burst if the thief is deep in shadow arts.

Edit: ah mixed the title with D/P, my bad.

Do your best to keep them out of range but close enough that you can hit them. they’re going to kite you and kite you alot and when they start coming towards you they’re readying to cloak and dagger so always be ready to dodge/blind/block. good chance they have caltrops so also stay at a safe distance so that you remain mobile and not crippled. (you shouldn’t remain stationary no matter what anyway)

Phantasms and clones actually give them an advantage since they can stealth off of them leaving you open for numerous sneak shots and a very quick stack of bleeds on you. Thieves obviously have numerous ways to stealth but in pistol dagger chances are their only other access to stealth outside of cloak and dagger will be blinding powder.

I dont know much about mesmers so I cant suggest what skills and such to use but I do know stuns/dazes are your friend. I’ve personally only beaten a few mesmers but accept that I dont think they knew how to counter me where as the ones that did simply melted me in a few seconds. I know we’re annoying but we aren’t unkillable. This is really the only advice I can give you, every thief might play this weaponset differently so there is no sure fire “I win buttons” I can offer you.

p.s. I’m no veteran and certainly need to get better myself, only offering my personal advice on how I would counter this if I were another class with an idea on what a pistol dagger thief would be using and how they’re trying to win a fight. Wish I could help you further silvershadez, you arent on storm bluff isle by chance are you?

as a P/D player i have to say the worst thing to deal with is blinds…..blinds and aegis/blocks. these are incredibly tough to get around as p/d isnt a high init gaining build. if u can make a p/d miss 2 CNDs you just took the lead in the duel. he now has to use his utilities for stealth and play perfect there after or he will be in huge trouble and a sitting duck. see if u can dodge or block/blind those CNDs…… you have to TIME it though bc if u do it too early he will use auto attack to drop blind. hope this helps.

Also ive never lost to a sword player …actually thats a lie i lost to trigger once out of 8 duels on his sword build. when i played s/d or d/p against his sword it was like 50 50 ish. high hp isnt a big deal but condi removal def is. ok here is what u r facing.

usually a tick is doing 128 dmg per sec per stack on a decent condi thief. high end is 155 low end is usually 110.

sooooooooooo…..at 128 dmg per stack per sec and lets say hes average 8 stacks on you which is being conservative…(high end average is 11 ish low end is 5 ish) this means you are taking 1024 dmg per second REGARDLESS of armor. this means that a thief has to maintain this for probably around 11-12 seconds for a kill. if no other dmg was being done it would be 20 seconds. sneak attack is 1k – 1.5k depending and then auto attack is 350-450 if i rmember right sometimes higher if an occaisonal crit. count on 3 x sneak attacks per 20 seconds MINIMUM and about 6-8 auto attacks and about 2 CND’s for about 1500 each. so adding these up gets us to 10350 direct dmg per 20 secs. so you are looking at roughly 30,830 dmg…… CONDI REMOVAL is the key. block CNDs …cause blinds…..also CCs are without saying.

hope this helps…..just my perspective of what i hate to see as a bleed thief.

High HP is inherently good against conditions because they don’t tick a percentage of your health and armor isn’t an issue because conditions ignore armor. Any good s/x thief can beat a p/d thief using their IS, teleports, and stuns/dazed correctly. Each time you teleport using sword 2 you remove a condition. Since p/d thieves have limited access to more than 2 conditions this puts a lot of pressure, especially when you’re built for initiative regen to do this repeatedly. Sword thieves are an inherent direct counter to the p/d thief, and I’ve explained why above.

Chiming in as another P/D Thief, blinds and blocks cause us to suffer greatly on CnD. Immobilize and Stun as well, depending on what stun breakers the P/D Thief has access to. (I don’t run any, but hey, it’s a trade off.)

Travlane.5948:

as a P/D player i have to say the worst thing to deal with is blinds…..blinds and aegis/blocks. these are incredibly tough to get around as p/d isnt a high init gaining build. if u can make a p/d miss 2 CNDs you just took the lead in the duel. he now has to use his utilities for stealth and play perfect there after or he will be in huge trouble and a sitting duck. see if u can dodge or block/blind those CNDs…… you have to TIME it though bc if u do it too early he will use auto attack to drop blind. hope this helps.

Blocks, and for sure reflects will trip up a p/d build’s combo flow any day of the week. Also having on-deman condition removal, or having a crazy high condition duration reduction will reduce the overall dps of the build as well.

Chain CC and Immobilize, combined with spike damage.
I ran a P/D condition build, too. They have 1 stun breaker at most:
Signet of Shadows / Caltrops or Venom / Stunbreak or Venom / Basilisk Venom
If it’s a venom build, it already got problems with a simple 100blades frenzy bullrush warrior and if it’s a caltrop build, you don’t even need THAT much spike, because he will have way less control abilities. It’s still the same, tho: Pin him down and spike him.

Some examples:

Thief: D/P probably eats P/D alive for totally different reasons as stated above. P/D depends on outmaneuvering your opponent, while it actually has up to no maneuverability outside stealth. D/P is simply superior in maneuverability, positioning and blind application. P/D can pile up more pressure than D/P, but not against that constant heal and CR.
Mesmer: Offhand pistol by itself is already a great counter to P/D. IDuelist, combined with an on-demand interrupt will melt P/D. Apart from that, a standard issue shattercat will also put some pressure on P/D thieves, but it will be risky.
Warrior: If you really want to hard counter a P/D thief: Mace+Shield, Greatsword, Bullrush, reflect trait. There. He won’t ever kill you, while you can spike him within 2 seconds, during which he is stunned.

I ran into a P/D thief while roaming as S/D one day. The P/D thief got the jump on me…got me to about half HP i used hide in shadows to regain full HP i ran a bit he followed so I decided to engage. Then it basically comes down to the timing of infiltrator strike. Always have it up so you have on-demand condi removal. It was a pretty close battle I mean I was losing HP and he was too since I was abusing infiltrator strike for the condi removal, immobilize and I guess probably panic strike kicked in and I locked him in for the kill. I also got hit by mortars like twice but I still beat him in downed state.

Anyways, probably wasn’t the best P/D thief but don’t really see what else they can do. The only condi removal I used was just IS and HiS.

Note: I didn’t notice caltrops so he probably used a venom.

like i said ive never lost to a sword using in wvw….only one i ever lost to was an amazing duelist so :P. i carry 3 blinding skills in my utilies…3 invis….3heals….1 stun breaks and TG or DS. and 3 of them also remove 2 condis. the blinds the p/d uses are just as strong oon the s/d user as they are on himself. save your stun for the HIS….about half of p/d use HIS. you also need high dodges….u prolly dont have much stealth on demand for condi removal or any at all depending on your build so you really need to dodge those sneak attacks. also with my build i Kinda have 3 stun breakers. 2 on SS….and 1 on steal. steal of mine causes a 1500 range 2 sec stun. if i stun my opponent for 2 secs my stun wears of with enough time to use CND and sneak attack. just a heads up.

well neither S/D or P/D are all that common for roaming in WvW to begin with. I mean I don’t think I’ve ever run into another S/D and that’s the first and last P/D I ran into while roaming. Ofcourse I don’t roam all the time either.

I’d say dagger thieves are definately a lot more common for roaming at least where I’m at (Tarnished coast)

So I guess I can also say I’ve never lost to a P/D thief even though I only ever encountered 1 xD

I also use sigil of earth as a cover condition so pretty sure you won’t be able to remove immobilize. Though I can say if the sword user spams flanking strike that’s just wasting his ini which should be used for IS instead. There is literally no boon to steal and nothing worth evading.

Sneak attack does not need to be dodged….can just take it and if the bleeds stack to critical mass then just shadow return. Either way, we can just agree that both of these specs are totally niche for WvW roaming…you probably won’t see either.

On the other hand, I run into a lot of D/D and D/P thieves. I don’t really like to engage other thieves, and they don’t like to fight me either so usually what happens is we just kinda run off…. I mean for D/D you just need to dodge the CND and for D/P you can just leave them while they’re stacking stealth so pretty hard for another thief to force me to engage.

The way I see it, each build should have a counter more or less. Some builds are better at killing specific setups then others. If a build can always win 100% of time, IMO, that’s a broken build. This goes for all professions, not just mesmers.
I play a P/D thief, have been since day one of the release. There are counters to it, and people need to find those. Those who have posted above me have some great advice.

Keep in mind, every build in every profession has a weak spot, it’s all about finding it. P/D is no different. It’s great for killing some builds, and horrible for others. If OP is stating that he can kill ‘everything but’ there is something wrong there.

Condition removal is a slight challenge for a lot of mesmers, but as has been said, you can avoid a lot by neutering a P/D’s Cloak and Dagger. It’s a pretty predictable attack, since it’s our only melee ability. Pistol’s Sneak Attack is the primary bleed applicator, but it attacks five times. As such, it’s susceptible to retaliation (and technically confusion, but most P/Ds are going to be Shadow Arts specced and easily capable of removing or waiting out the stack). I believe Cry of Frustration gets you a healthy sized retaliation stack, but don’t blow it early. If I see it on you, I’m going to steal it and give it to all of my friends.

PS a trick I use to get a reliable HiS is to dodge roll then chain HiS. I don’t think HiS has ever failed for me when following a dodge roll. But yea otherwise it can be interrupted.

@excalibur…huh? how doesthat help HIS>? they can still hit u while HISing

Travlane.5948:

@excalibur…huh? how doesthat help HIS>? they can still hit u while HISing

If I had to guess I’d say the dodge gives you maybe 0.75s dodge after the dodge which would be enough time to chain the HiS since you can queue HiS during dodge so it will start right after.

really i figred it gave you about .25 secs tops….still leave HIS open
but idk ill go take a closer look

Travlane.5948:

really i figred it gave you about .25 secs tops….still leave HIS open
but idk ill go take a closer look

i dont know how much time it actually gives, but the combination of queueing HiS during dodge and the short invul after the dodge makes it pretty much impossible to intercept.

so u press HIS during dodge?

Travlane.5948:

so u press HIS during dodge?

Yes. press it right after dodge while you’re still dodging.

Im a crit/pow/vita thief and what I do is venom cc the kitten out of these trolls.
Lock them in place… and they are trivial kills.

Although ,the best counter is a GS Mesmer.

Edit: they are also really shoddy in water combat.

/2nd Ghostwolf

mesmers dont bother me unlesss its pvp. then i hate teh condi phants build

Well, thank you all for your advice.

A pro P/D thief won’t be hurt by me blocking / blinding / dodging his CnD, as he just uses my clones / phantasms to restealth and will try anything to keep a safe distance.

In a WvW scenario he utilizes the mobs around him.

Reflection might help, maybe even my focus phantasm (eats projectiles) but those skills have far too high CDs, too long for me to catch the thief, while he’s “helpless” (he still has almost infinite stealth possibilities).

My condition removal as a mesmer is limited. Still I run condi duration REDUCTION food + Melandru runes therefore, and 2 condi removal skills (null field, condi transfer).

In the current state I kind of just search for the stealthed thief, while his conditions slowly burn me down. Running away works some times. But no good thief will be outrun by a mesmer.

The only chance I have is when the thief gets too confident, ignoring my phantasms, or when i get a lucky knockback / stun in the middle of his CnD animation. But then again he has Refuge to reset the fight and start chasing me over …

Just tell me your mesmers build.
It might help :P

Just walk the other direction.

Very simple. Avoid c&d and p/d forced to run to nearest pack of mobs. If he don’t run to nearest rats to c&d off he is dead. If hi run and find some mobs to c&d off just walk away cause p/d is a troll and nothing more. p/d can kill only that players who use bad builds or new to the game.