Guild Wars 2

I’m a level 80 engineer specced offensively for wvw.

I got a visual on a thief.

Hit him with net shot and got off one single round from hip shot.

Next thing I know I’m dead.

He hit me with a 3,387 steal, 8,294 cloak and dagger, followed by a 13,798 backstab. It was instantaneous damage, with no way to even react, unless of course you include clicking the waypoint in your definition of react.

This isn’t a QQ post. I get it, I’m squishy.

But I’m here on your forum asking for some guidance.

How do I counter that?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

you need to get better gear man, though numbers are HUGE and only possible on squishie target with poor gear

I’m in full berserker’s… I also have a full exotic power, toughness, vitality set, which doesn’t make me any more survivable, but completely kittens my damage.

I am a full zerker Thief. And my damage is far from that.

I have red other posts like that.I am little concerned by anything,which is not related to SPvP and i am not familiar with top PvE/WvW gear. Is it the problem of gear stats,like the exotic gear give way more damage then toughness maybe.Because in SPvP the “one hit wonder” builds are far less dangerous?

your first mistake was complaining about WvWvW

anet said they wont be balancing it, so complaining about it is pointless

second, that specific spec the thief is using is on the chopping block, so dont worry

i’m not an engineer, so i’m just figuring out (also due to the lack of informations provided).
i think you could have used:
- smoke bomb
- flash granade
- static shot
or trait I of invention.

Stun Breaker or Port skill he’ll be out of endurance you should be able to burst him down then. However if your glass too good luck. The other thing like what has already been mentioned is that WvWvW is naturally unfair.

I’m not an Engineer so I’m not sure what your counters are but as a Thief to counter this I use two things (I’m sure eng has comparable stuff).

1. 30 point Acrobatics trait that instantly teleports me away whenever I am CC’d. These builds will almost always apply some sort of CC poison to their weapons to line up the Backstab. This is i-win vs them whenever it is up which is every minute or so since they need to pre-cast and blow all their cooldowns before the backstab.

2. Blinding powder. As soon as I hear their dagger I hit this. Instant AoE blind + stealth. They miss the backstab and I get to open on them.

I’m not a glass thief but both of those are hard counters to them.

The only time I can’t counter them is when I’m distracted or fighting someone else and CD’s are on cooldown. In that case I feel a glass thief is doing what they are designed to do.

I personally don’t play a backstab spec,

and as to singularities comment, he’s doing the sensible thing instead of wining he’s asking thieves for feedback on what he seems an impossible situation.

I don’t play a backstab build I don’t even equip daggers in WvW. the simple reason is that 1v1 we are an OP class with a specific build and utility skills that can insta kill a lot of targets.

I have played against thieves that use this, I normally win as well, one of the key elements of this is fighting against them when they are in stealth. constantly moving and aoeing at your own location is the best form of defence, you’d be surprised how glass these guys are. Since I am a thief I simply cluster bomb at my feet, I obviously have the luxury of stealthing as well to simply counter there stealth. One other important element is when you see one vanish, dodge! they might be mugging on steal. Also look for little black puffs of smoke that indicate stealth abut to break.

In short though, yeah against this build in some situations there isn’t a lot you can do. If you dodge, avoid or negate the first attack (I use signet of shadow which allows me to blind when imbolised and shadowshot which also allows me to blind on my current location) then the thief isn’t much use and will likely skulk off. If anyone tells you this requires skill, it doesn’t its a really really easy build to setup and utilise. I did so during beta.

I will say that on the whole this backstab insta kill build is relatively useless in WvW in the grand shceme of things, it is an issue in Spvp but I don’t play that much. In WvW as a thief I prefer my shortbow but I run with a dedicated guild with a specific role.

OP try and sort through my ramblings. I’d suggest a grenade build instant quick burst aoe. these glass thieves often don’t take many blinds with them and they drop so so so fast. hope you found this constructive as I think the engi kicks kitten and isn’t a free kill like a ranger.

I appreciate all of the responses. Thank you!

Although I am mostly specced offensively, I do have some defensive traits. Specifically, auto-defense bomb dispenser: drop a smoke bomb whenever you are disabled. It has a 60 second cool-down however, and may have been down when I was attacked.

I guess I simply have to come to terms with the fact that I can be one-shotted by thieves, and move on.

Thanks again!

Hey MrSilver.5269 want to see something? same thing happend to me.

I’m an engineer and I can barely defeat thieves in PvP. I think engineers are bad against them.

You need to use something to prevent him from cloaking, or from hitting you while he’s cloaked.

Remember thieves have a signet which removes all conditions, and two abilities which remove stun too. So have a few condition-causing abilities ready.

Your sure-fire bet though is to travel with a group. Engineers are mostly support from what I gather about their abilities and thieves specialize in 1-on-1 combat. The deck is stacked in our favor from the start.

Just run away it’s a kitten class atm. Even if you beat them to 5% hp they use SB, stealth+Signet of 25% speed and run away, heal back and come back at you full of hp and initiative rdy to crit you for crazy amounts again. You don’t win against a good thief.

Shintai.5618:

I am a full zerker Thief. And my damage is far from that.

Its not all about your gear.. its about your exact spec. Certain points going in with certain skills produces this damage

There are some problems with wvwvw in this game, they have nothing to do with thieves although we benefit mightily from them. Those are not instant moves he did on you, steal doesn’t teleport you behind the target and backstab doesn’t do crap unless he is behind you. The counter to what that thief did to you is to dodge immediately as he stealths and don’t give him access to your back. Dodge twice even, use survival skills. I don’t know what engineers can do honestly but a teleport/stealth is a completely telegraphed set up for a massive backstab hit. Now, i understand with the way wvwvw currently works with invisible enemies and such it might not be easy to avoid, but that is not a problem with thieves.

Thank you for your response Tremain. In the situation I mentioned I engaged the thief who was in front of me in visual range. I opened first with a CC (net shot), he disappeared, and the next thing I knew I was dead. The moment his was gone from in front of me I should have dodged, turned around, and hit slick shoes, rather than panning my camera. This is very helpful, and I’ll definitely try that next time. It at least may solve the problem in situations where you see the thief first. As for situations where the thief gets the jump… I’m still at a loss.

But thank you!

Right, the main thing is the moment you see a thief disappear on you to expect a backstab and act accordingly. Also keep in mind most thieves who focus on that build will also try to CC you.

If you are all Power/Precision/Critical% gear you will get stomped by not only Thieves but any player who catches you. Not sure the complaint really. You are trading off survival for more damage. If someone is spec’d the same way and catches you, you get owned, and if you catch them, they get owned. It’s a coin toss, and although that Thief got you this time, I’m sure he died to a tanky Guardian 5 minutes later.

Get Power/Toughness/Vitality gear. I post about this all the time. I wreck groups of players using this. You have to find what works with that gear, but I guarantee something does work. I’ve seen tanky Guardians dish out more damage over time than their bursty counterparts because they don’t die as fast = more damage output. Wrap your head around this! I am not sure why I should give away this super obvious secret but, PvP gear has a certain stat combo for a reason!

Shooopa.5632:
Remember thieves have a signet which removes all conditions…

I assume you were referencing signet of agility, in which case, that is false. It removes based on amount of allies around the player. True, it could cure all conditions if the player is surrounded by allies, but in that case you’re either in a large group fight or already dead because you were ran over by a zerg (w3). The signet will not cure all conditions in a situation like a 1v1 that I assume the OP was referencing. That being said, the thief does have numerous other ways to remove conditions.

http://www.gw2db.com/skills/3999-signet-of-agility

Yea I agree, I personally am building towards PvP stats on my armor (power/vit/tough) and Carrion (power/vit/condmg) on all else with 30 points in the vit/toughness/healing traits. Having vit everywhere with toughness thrown in is very noticeable.

There is no way to counter a Thief on a glass cannon character.
Thieves are born to shred people wearing no toughness.
With toughness, Thieves will be without initiative and you still alive.

Lol’d at 8k c&d btw.
My Warrior would probably one shot you at full health with Killshot.

Specific to this situation, Slick Shoes would be a great counter. If you used it after they use C&D, they should get knocked down and blinded, so they won’t be able to use the backstab attack at all.

EDIT: Wait the blind is only underwater. One second I’ll keep looking. Although the knockdown is still good.

Basically you want a blind on them, since this sort of build (Assassin’s Signet and Backstab, among other things) is based on building up to one big attack. So if you can deny that attack, you’ve destroyed their build and damage and can retaliate further.

If you could quickly swap to Grenade Kit or Flamethrower, you have a few blinds that you can apply to nearby foes. Or just having a flame turret out, which could be good for punishing a thief the moment they pop out of stealth. (I’m not sure how fast turrets are to react, I’m unfamiliar with Engineer.)

Obviously it’s a lot to think of the first time you see a thief (who may not be running a one-shot style build at all!) but it could save you from your second or third death against them.

Knowing the mechanics of the trick should help you find your own solutions specific to your class.

The Thief is using Dagger/Dagger, which is a melee weapon setup. He begins to cast Cloak and Dagger which is a melee range attack with a long wind up, from range. Before the animation for the CnD finishes, the Thief uses Steal which will teleport him to you without interupting the CnD cast. If the CnD connects, the Thief goes into stealth, and can then try to backstab you.

Tells to remember:

- If you see a Thief at range with D/D it’s almost a given that they’re going to try and do this once they get inside 900 range.

- If you see a Thief with Assassin’s Signet buff visible, this is also only used with this type of build so you again know that they’re going to go for this trick as soon as they can

- CnD is a melee attack with a visible animation – if you see a D/D thief go into any sort of casting animation from range it’s possible to dodge it on reaction to avoid the setup. If you dodge the CnD then the Thief will not stealth, and cannot backstab you. Dodging this is made easier because seeing D/D and the signet should tell you straight away that they’re going to go for this combo.

- If you see a D/D Thief dissapear from range then you may have been too slow to avoid the CnD, but it’s still possible to dodge the Backstab which is the meat of the damage. The build is often paired with poison that will stun or immobilise, so you will need to use a CC breaker followed by an immediate dodge. Again reacting to this is easier because if you see the Thief from range you will know in advance that they’re using this build.

The versions of these builds that pull out the numbers you’re quoting are all-in gimmicks, that blow all their cooldowns on an opener, and are very squishy with zero survivability traits. As such, if you dodge the opener you win. Dealing with this is simply something you need to learn, just like you have to learn to dodge or break glass Warrior stun into 100b.

Numbers are inflated in WvW compared to SPvP because of Orbs, and because full exotics give you more stats to play with than PvP gear. Those extra stats could be put into damage mitigation… but nobody does that.

I’ve found equipping a bomb kit and running away placing bombs is a good counter to backstab. Stealth doesn’t block damage, and bombs don’t care if you can’t target anything.

bwillb.2165:

I’ve found equipping a bomb kit and running away placing bombs is a good counter to backstab. Stealth doesn’t block damage, and bombs don’t care if you can’t target anything.

Actually, nothing cares that you don’t have a target. Abilities in GW2 can all be fired without anything targetted and will all hit people in stealth if they happen to be in the way. Just point your shots at where you think the Thief is.

That includes single target ranged and melee attacks, stuns and interupts, snares whatever. As long as they’re fired in the general direction of the Thief it doesn’t matter that they are in stealth. The only thing that stealth does is prevent tab targetting and hide their position, that’s it.

Honestly we all know the best counter is a balanced toon. One stun break and they can kiss their dps chain good bye. About running away with a bow. Elixir B and engi’s with alchemy trait can have Swiftness up all the time with CC and the fact he will run out of initiative there should be no successful running.

If the thief is using Devourer Venom or Basilisk Venom, all you can really do is try to have a removal ready whenever you see the thief. If he’s not using those two venoms, dodge. After Steal is on CD, it’s much, much harder to land CnD and effectively Backstab. You have to keep moving and dodging whenever the thief is in stealth. Backstab has a .25 second cast time and has 130 range. If you constantly move, it’s much harder to land Backstab.

Honestly, a nerf is coming, and if they nerf thief the way the players want, you’re not going to have much to worry about with thieves anymore.

Stealth doesn’t remove roots. Also the Steal skill doesn’t place the thief in your back which is required for backstab to do heavy damage. It’s impossible to you to have died instantly like that unless you specifically put your back to the rooted thief.

Honestly, a nerf is coming, and if they nerf thief the way the players want, you’re not going to have much to worry about with thieves anymore.

That’s a baseless assumption, i don’t see you producing any reasoning as to why they would change backstab.

TeoH.2098:

Honestly, a nerf is coming, and if they nerf thief the way the players want, you’re not going to have much to worry about with thieves anymore.

That’s a baseless assumption, i don’t see you producing any reasoning as to why they would change backstab.

Constant complaints. I don’t know if you have seen any of the threads on the WvW section or sPvP section, but thief is the most complained about class. I don’t want them to, but they’re going to nerf it. Pistol Whip was hit hard to the point where it’s not even worth using over auto attack anymore unless you’re using Haste.

If you don’t think thief is going to get nerfed, you’re in denial.

Krathalos.3461:

Constant complaints.

First rule of MMOs, everyone complains about the Rogue.

You’re assuming the devs are stupid enough to base their class design on that. The changes made so far are not unreasonable, Pistol Whip’s adjustment reflects the fact that S/P as a whole had everything going for it and stood well above other setups for competitive play.

D/D lacks the utility of that build and primarily brings single target burst damage. It doesn’t cleave multiple targets, it doesn’t have easy access to repeated interupts from any distance, it doesn’t have a gap closer and stun break escape with no cooldown that cures conditions. S/P was not simply ‘the Pistol Whip build’, and their change backs that up. It was a genuinely strong rounded build at high levels of play, while all-in backstab opener builds are simply a gimmick that annoys people in WvW.

Reducing backstab base damage would hurt all mainhand dagger builds including ones which aren’t attempting to throw everything they have into a one shot opener. If any adjustments are made they are likely to be to the stacking cooldowns, signet and associated talents that are used to boost backstab damage for that gimmick. However i wouldn’t bet on such a change as there is no genuine class balance issue there in the first place.

Highlet.8039:

The signet will not cure all conditions in a situation like a 1v1 that I assume the OP was referencing. That being said, the thief does have numerous other ways to remove conditions.

http://www.gw2db.com/skills/3999-signet-of-agility

It doesn’t work on the player themselves unless there’s someone else near them?

Well that’s just head-scratchingly poor design I think. Then the only utility that’s good for it is Shadow Step and Return.

At least you can use Shadow Refuge in a pinch though.

Actually, nothing cares that you don’t have a target. Abilities in GW2 can all be fired without anything targetted and will all hit people in stealth if they happen to be in the way. Just point your shots at where you think the Thief is.
That includes single target ranged and melee attacks, stuns and interupts, snares whatever. As long as they’re fired in the general direction of the Thief it doesn’t matter that they are in stealth. The only thing that stealth does is prevent tab targetting and hide their position, that’s it.

Actually, a good amount of abilities do require a target. A lot of mesmer spells, for instance.

Thank you EVERYONE. Some really fantastic information has been provided.

I’ve started running with a more balanced build equipping power/toughness/vitality gear in my equipment slots, and keeping berserker’s for trinkets.

I found that I’m able to avoid the instant kill now, but the reality is that killing a d/d thief is still extremely difficult because, well let’s be honest, a good thief can reset virtually any 1v1 fight.

In any event, thanks again.

You counter this by dodging towards the Thief as soon as he gets close to the 900 Steal Range.

Since Steal is an instant Shadowstep this will teleport him right to you but looking in the wrong direction. This will also negate the Mug damage which is a big part of the burst combo. This may not even trigger Thrill of the Crime , not sure.

This might even waste his Basilisk Venom, which would be crucial.

Without his Steal he can’t close a gap and can’t use C&D. His only Stealth will be Hide in the Shadows and potentially Shadow Refuge if he has it. Then you just kite him about blasting him with damage which shouldn’t take long considering their HP.

It’s not easy to see a Thief coming in the heat of battle, but in a 1v1 just chaining those Dodges just before the Steal will almost completely break his burst.

I found that I’m able to avoid the instant kill now, but the reality is that killing a d/d thief is still extremely difficult because, well let’s be honest, a good thief can reset virtually any 1v1 fight.

Well, the counter to that is to not allow the thief a 1v1 fight. You’ve got a team, use them. The game was never meant to be balanced in 1v1, that’s why there is no dueling option.

@DeeJay

Fantastic advice.

Thank you!

@bwillb

I often run solo in off hours when the rest of my guild isn’t playing and I run into a ton of 1v1 situations away from the zerg. The only class I’ve had a difficult time with is the thief, hence the reason for this thread.

…..“DODGE.”…..

MrSilver.5269:

I’m a level 80 engineer specced offensively for wvw.

I got a visual on a thief.

Hit him with net shot and got off one single round from hip shot.

Next thing I know I’m dead.

He hit me with a 3,387 steal, 8,294 cloak and dagger, followed by a 13,798 backstab. It was instantaneous damage, with no way to even react, unless of course you include clicking the waypoint in your definition of react.

This isn’t a QQ post. I get it, I’m squishy.

But I’m here on your forum asking for some guidance.

How do I counter that?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Keep your distance, and practice rolling.
Start using your skills only when needed.
Don’t waste skills unless it is for a good reason.
Get used to doing that and you’ll start to figure out better ideas/builds for your self.

Learn to predict their moves.

Fight a bunch, mess up a bunch, be spontaneous with your actions, it will allow you to make mistakes (which is the key factor to improving) and learn from it, you’ll get better.

Every player will do something drastically or subtly different.

So the OP is a “offense” spec Engineer (a class that is already a bit squishy) in Berserk gears….. and it’s a surprise that a Thief built completely for heavy, quick-hit opening…. blows him up?

Engineers have a few traits that can protect them when immobilized or stunned. But picking those would mean NOT picking “offense” spec.

Just wanted to point that out. The smoke bomb proc alone would practically neuter that glass cannon Thief blowing his wad on the initial contact.

But if the OP has found that his “offense” spec is keeping him more than competitive in small WvW fights with nearly every other class, then maybe being an easy kill for glass cannon single-shot Thieves is a tradeoff he’ll have to make.

Wolfe.3097:

your first mistake was complaining about WvWvW

anet said they wont be balancing it, so complaining about it is pointless

second, that specific spec the thief is using is on the chopping block, so dont worry

You must be new to Anet strats. They changed crap for a long time in GW1 and changes have already happened here. For good or bad, more will come.

Well…

With 2100 armor, defensive traits, 18K hps I just got hit with a 4,568 steal, 7,407 C&D, followed by a 10,759 BS.

I’m sorry, but there simply is not enough time to react. The second I got hit with the steal I tried to roll, but was dead before I could even hit the hot key.

Something really needs to be done, because 9 out of my last 10 deaths I have suffered have been exactly that combo: Steal, C&D, BS. And when I say 9 out of 10 deaths I’m serious. I’ve been keeping a log.

This has officially turned into a QQ post.

I want an iwin button too.

MrSilver.5269:

Well…

With 2100 armor, defensive traits, 18K hps I just got hit with a 4,568 steal, 7,407 C&D, followed by a 10,759 BS.

snip

Those defensive stats are not very high.

Besides, like it’s been said in this thread previously, if this is happening in WvW, there are a couple of stat multipliers that you need account for.

But seriously. If you want to defeat glass cannons, build more defensive gear. There’s a reason Badges of Honor purchase Power/Toughness/Vitality gear.

I am in full power toughness vitality gear.

2000 toughness. I died before I could dodge. It was either lag or some exploit. I litterally died in 1 sec on my screen.

So you saw the guy coming, saw him Steal… and did what?

You have been offered some advice about how to mess up this glass cannon build’s opening salvo.

You could also smoke bomb when you see him coming. If he Steals into you as the bomb goes off, he’s effed. Hit with pistol blind since he has to be in range to pull that Steal lead-off? Do you have Protective Shield trait to help if one of these hits is a critical?

Maybe you should ask at the Engineer boards for help. But it doesn’t seem like you want answers to help you, rather you just want blood.

Ive seen those numbers against glass cannons on my thief, use mini form when you see him steal, it will still hurt but not as bad. You probably wont beat a thief 1v1 tho, but atleast you can make him work for it.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Ive seen those numbers against glass cannons on my thief, use mini form when you see him steal, it will still hurt but not as bad. You probably wont beat a thief 1v1 tho, but atleast you can make him work for it.

That may work if you see the thief first…

But what about when you don’t?