How far is too far?
I think nerf bat hit too hard. We can only hope for a future buff.
Black Thunders [BT] – Gandara
There was me thinking steal and initiative were a thiefs core mechanics.
I know many mesmers and Rangers would happily exchange their damage shared with AI pets to have “while in stealth” or “from stealth” mechanics. You know, those that have real core mechanics very easily shut down by there being more than 2 people with any form of cleave.
The real problems with thief has and always has been the spammy nature and how stealth has not had a whole lot of counters. Sure I know you were where that smoke field was but for the next 4-9s I don’t know if you’re here, gone away or waiting for me to use cool downs to attack.
As someone who does play thief and mesmer, I do welcome the more counter play to stealth, this was a long time coming and now thief might possibly get buffs to things it needs like cool down reductions on haste and roll for initiative.
Incidentally the trait for haste on attacking from behind has double cool down reduction with the trickster trait and ends up with an ICD of 36s which I’ll be honest is a better place.
Stealth is not thief core mechanic.
There was me thinking steal and initiative were a thiefs core mechanics.
So if this is the case why are 3 traits that modify dodges for daredevil considered a new mechanic? Core mechanics aren’t just a resource and f1 it is the entire kit of a class and how it functions.
Stealth is important on several weapon sets for thief you cant access backstab or any other “stealth skill” without it.
Honestly ask yourself why you even have an attack skill from stealth if its not part of the “Core design” of the class, when no other classes have this ability?
Mesmer also has stealth :P
Yes, stealth attacks are unique thief “core” mechanic. However other professions have loads of access to stealth thus making it just a game mechanic not a thief only mechanic.
Most thieves just got used to being as strong as mesmers are now pre-trait patch thus this QQ. Also everyday I see very able thieves so we all know these QQ threads are mostly over exaggerated.
Yes, stealth attacks are unique thief “core” mechanic. However other professions have loads of access to stealth thus making it just a game mechanic not a thief only mechanic.
Most thieves just got used to being as strong as mesmers are now pre-trait patch thus this QQ. Also everyday I see very able thieves so we all know these QQ threads are mostly over exaggerated.
- Thief has, by far, the most access to stealth
- Thief is the only class to have access to special attacks in stealth, which their weaponsets DPS/utilities are designed around. This makes thief the only class that loses Damage/utility potential when denied stealth.
- Thief has, by far, the most traits dedicated to stealth. An entire line where every minor traitwhile and every worthwhile (pvp) major trait is dedicated to stealth, and then a smattering of other traits in other lines (revealed training, hidden killer, fleet shadow)
- Stealth is also supposed to be a defensive mechanic for thieves. Whereas other classes get stability, damage immunities, larger healthpools/great healing sustain, thieves are supposed to rely on stealth (or evade) and blinds.
Stealth is a Thief mechanic – other classes have access to stealth, but for thieves,
it’s a mechanic. If that wasn’t apparent to you, I’m not sure how you feel yourself qualified to talk about the class.
If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
(edited by evilapprentice.6379)
There being more counter play to stealth could certainly be used to get reduced cool downs on some utilities that are not very competitive.
Lets be honest as 2 thieves to one another, we both know we’re not allowed to have nice things lol.
- Roll for Ini should be way shorter in cd but most likely wont be
- SR will be useless against glint Revs, which will be essentially almost every single Rev.
- Wont change the fact that Reveal is poorly designed and invalidates entire trait-lines which isn’t counter play. It’s more like if we were playing rock,paper,scissors and someone came along and cut our hands off. They proceed to say “Hey you can still play just work around the whole lack of hands thing!”
- Smoke-screen could use the Revenant Tech to glue it to your thief to make it more appealing but again, it prolly wont be.
- Venoms have always needed a stun break on one of them to be actually viable in solo-full venom builds otherwise you need to cover it with stealth or trying to be “tanky” which isn’t feasible in reality on a thief.
Counter play has existed for stealth for a long time players just chose to panic, complain or pretend it doesn’t exist.
If someone is stealth you know they’re either going to open up on you or run away.
You don’t at this point stop attacking, but start planning how to react place AoEs traps w.e you got to plan for their next move.
If you’re a guardian you can literally throw binding blade out and track them with it but most people aren’t even aware of things like that because they never took the time to learn. But I’ve gone far enough off topic at this point.
I get very annoyed with the reveal traits etc as while stealth is an easy defence for thief, reveal is just a brainless way to counter it. For example, when roaming with a ranger friend last night the necro and guard we fought stealth trapped me after we killed the necro a couple times. I was running S/P, my friend was playing melee ranger. GG.
That being said, I welcome the reveal skills provided we get some buffs to base survivability. I’m fine with being the glassy type that hides when pressured, but if hiding isn’t going to be an option anymore then we really need something done about that.
Critical Kit, Thief.
Don’t follow me, unless you enjoy being chased by angry men with sticks.
Power Build Condi Build
Don’t follow me, unless you enjoy being chased by angry men with sticks.
Power Build Condi Build
Thief stealth has always had plenty of counterplay. Knockback, fear etc for SR, stand in black powder so they are revealed when trying to do multiple leap finishers, block or evade CnD, interrupt HiS. The only thing you can’t counter is blinding powder, which is 4s traited on a kitten cooldown.
You can already counter a thief trying to enter stealth, now you can also screw one that made it in with 8s reveal. There are two kinds of counters to stealth, we should get at least one good way to deal with reveal.
Edit: why is 4 5 seconds censored?
There being more counter play to stealth could certainly be used to get reduced cool downs on some utilities that are not very competitive.
Lets be honest as 2 thieves to one another, we both know we’re not allowed to have nice things lol.
- Roll for Ini should be way shorter in cd but most likely wont be
- SR will be useless against glint Revs, which will be essentially almost every single Rev.
- Wont change the fact that Reveal is poorly designed and invalidates entire trait-lines which isn’t counter play. It’s more like if we were playing rock,paper,scissors and someone came along and cut our hands off. They proceed to say “Hey you can still play just work around the whole lack of hands thing!”
- Smoke-screen could use the Revenant Tech to glue it to your thief to make it more appealing but again, it prolly wont be.
- Venoms have always needed a stun break on one of them to be actually viable in solo-full venom builds otherwise you need to cover it with stealth or trying to be “tanky” which isn’t feasible in reality on a thief.
Counter play has existed for stealth for a long time players just chose to panic, complain or pretend it doesn’t exist.
If someone is stealth you know they’re either going to open up on you or run away.
You don’t at this point stop attacking, but start planning how to react place AoEs traps w.e you got to plan for their next move.
If you’re a guardian you can literally throw binding blade out and track them with it but most people aren’t even aware of things like that because they never took the time to learn. But I’ve gone far enough off topic at this point.
My previous post got deleted for quoting a deleted post =S
Anyway, try asking for a CD reduction on roll for initiative, devs are making changes right now, it’s the time to ask.
SR does have counter play when it goes down I do agree just as mass invis also has counters due to long channel. The problem is when you have stealth openers using these where the opponent is pretty much defenceless other than standing somewhere where you can’t get to easily.
The glint gaze of darkness I find is more of a counterplay thing to prevent escape or when you need to make sure they can’t get an untelegraphed burst on you. Both thieves and mesmers.
Reveal is short and complaining about the way it invalidates a whole trait line is like complaining poison invalidates or massively reduces healing support. Additionally you’re not acknowledging why reveal is there in the first place, as in to prevent backstab spamming.
Against bad thieves, sure sitting in black powder works but any competent thief (as in they don’t use auto target) can easily HS through it if someone sits in it. Better still the target just made themselves a sitting duck by being blinded and coming to you for BS.
Sure guards have a lot of ways to counter thieves with lines, rings, GS5 bullkitten but what of other classes? Rangers can rapid fire you as you go in otherwise more or less hit thin air, same for mesmers, warriors and a lot of other classes. The tactic is to hit that area with cleave/AoE and hope you’re hitting them which any competent thief can easily avoid. Though in general I don’t stealth up that close to enemies (usually 600 range away so they can’t do it easily)
Ranger lost moving spirits and thrown traps.. I hope we get them back with druid
Reveal is short and complaining about the way it invalidates a whole trait line is like complaining poison invalidates or massively reduces healing support.
Except it isn’t, at all. Poison can be cleansed, Reveal can’t. In fact, if you look at some recent past meta’s and even the current one, any class who specs for heavy healing sustain also has copious access to condition cleansing – they’re given tons of tools to counter their counter – thieves using stealth aren’t given those same tools.
Additionally you’re not acknowledging why reveal is there in the first place, as in to prevent backstab spamming.
I don’t think revealed/stealth attacks were well designed in the first place, but when it’s the thief applying it to themselves it at least gives the thief player the choice between doing damage and taking advantage of their traits.
Against bad thieves, sure sitting in black powder works but any competent thief (as in they don’t use auto target) can easily HS through it if someone sits in it. Better still the target just made themselves a sitting duck by being blinded and coming to you for BS.
Sure guards have a lot of ways to counter thieves with lines, rings, GS5 bullkitten but what of other classes? Rangers can rapid fire you as you go in otherwise more or less hit thin air, same for mesmers, warriors and a lot of other classes. The tactic is to hit that area with cleave/AoE and hope you’re hitting them which any competent thief can easily avoid.
The tactic isn’t to blindly AoE and hope you hit the thief. The tactic is “You know where the thief is trying to go(Hint, it’s behind you, in melee range)” so you either punish them heavily with your own high DPS skills or avoid their backstab all together via maneuvering/cc/etc." If thieves had a high damage ranged attack option(you know, like mesmers) while in stealth, it’d be a different story…but they don’t.
If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
SR also requires you to blow a dodge against good players to get worth out of it as well, and you currently cant dodge a pet taunt it goes through all evades with its bug.
“Reveal is short” if you don’t think 6 seconds matters in a fight I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe you’re playing against bad players or are built more tanky compared to normal zerk thieves.
Poison can be cleared reveal cannot be. In-fact Reveal can be stacked on you repeatedly until you are down/dead. Even if it is there to prevent you from “spamming backstab” it doesn’t change the fact its done poorly and that your self reveal can be chained off greatly hindering you.
At the very least it should have diminishing returns but so should plenty of other things in the game.
It’s also not always short if they put down a stealth trap or something you are looking at 30 seconds of revealed time.
They can lay this trap from stealth as well which has 0 counter play unless you saw them put it down.
If you want something with absolutely 0 counter-play that’s not a consumable, look no further to warrior’s berserker stance.
For all intents and purposes, this should be changed to gain resistance boon for X amount of time to provide counter play, but it has not and will not be changed in all likely hood.
People also like to pretend thieves are immune to stealth ganks themselves which is not the case at all.
More counters against thieves
- Cele D/D ele doesn’t need to worry about them, staff eles should be casting aoes on themselves and using their line to interrupt the evades if they’re evade spamming thieves. After all you’re the target so you prevent the thief from safely backstabbing you creating an area of denial.
- Warrior’s are usually fine against thieves they can literally delete them with a well timed rampage after some back and forth between them.
- Guardians we already explained
- Mesmer’s Mirror lets you open on them as they either bas venom or daze steal you which in turn stuns them
- Ranger can and often opens with sic’em rapid fire and the better rangers also have the pet taunt which counters all evades and will force you to de-stealth. Put several traps at their feet if they wanted or use them to stealth with trapper runes.
- Engineer has plenty of blocks cc and reveals hell they can even moa em if they really want to.
- Necro can put down lower cd marks they don’t need to get a feel of which way the thief will open on them. They are also naturally tanky and have “oh no save me traits”. They can put down the fear wall to counter evade builds
- All classes can use vamp runes to prevent the fatal burst and counter off of.
Except it isn’t, at all. Poison can be cleansed, Reveal can’t. In fact, if you look at some recent past meta’s and even the current one, any class who specs for heavy healing sustain also has copious access to condition cleansing – they’re given tons of tools to counter their counter – thieves using stealth aren’t given those same tools.
I get what you’re saying but I think other thieves are really over reacting when they say revealed completely negates their entire trait line which is what I was referring to. It doesn’t, it only temporarily does in the same way stability does to CC heavy players does, the way high amounts of poison does to healer specced characters does, like how resistance and berserker stance temporarily counters conditions.
The tactic isn’t to blindly AoE and hope you hit the thief. The tactic is “You know where the thief is trying to go(Hint, it’s behind you, in melee range)” so you either punish them heavily with your own high DPS skills or avoid their backstab all together via maneuvering/cc/etc." If thieves had a high damage ranged attack option(you know, like mesmers) while in stealth, it’d be a different story…but they don’t.
Firstly mesmer ranged option is as poor as thieves (hint: a mesmer shattering at ranged is taking a huge damage hit) though I would say thieves get the better utility. Additionally a Mesmer bursting from stealth needs to be next to you to come even close to backstab damage which isn’t really ranged.
Secondly I generally let them waste their skills doing that. Wait it out, re stealth and engage. I now have the upper hand as they wasted those AoE skills and I usually have full initiative by the time I need to restealth. The only thing the enemy accomplishes is buying time before the inevitable backstabbing happens…generally works well against things that are not DD eles or AI heavy builds, not that MM necro is a problem, just that pistol 5 generally won’t grant me the wide reaching protection from attacks it does to other builds.
Except it isn’t, at all. Poison can be cleansed, Reveal can’t. In fact, if you look at some recent past meta’s and even the current one, any class who specs for heavy healing sustain also has copious access to condition cleansing – they’re given tons of tools to counter their counter – thieves using stealth aren’t given those same tools.
I get what you’re saying but I think other thieves are really over reacting when they say revealed completely negates their entire trait line which is what I was referring to. It doesn’t, it only temporarily does in the same way stability does to CC heavy players does, the way high amounts of poison does to healer specced characters does, like how resistance and berserker stance temporarily counters conditions.
And again, all those things you keep mentioning have counters. CC has stunbreakers, immunities, and stability. Resistance can be stripped/corrupted, though I have no comment on berserker stance – that one makes no sense to me.
The tactic isn’t to blindly AoE and hope you hit the thief. The tactic is “You know where the thief is trying to go(Hint, it’s behind you, in melee range)” so you either punish them heavily with your own high DPS skills or avoid their backstab all together via maneuvering/cc/etc." If thieves had a high damage ranged attack option(you know, like mesmers) while in stealth, it’d be a different story…but they don’t.
Firstly mesmer ranged option is as poor as thieves (hint: a mesmer shattering at ranged is taking a huge damage hit) though I would say thieves get the better utility. Additionally a Mesmer bursting from stealth needs to be next to you to come even close to backstab damage which isn’t really ranged.
Secondly I generally let them waste their skills doing that. Wait it out, re stealth and engage. I now have the upper hand as they wasted those AoE skills and I usually have full initiative by the time I need to restealth. The only thing the enemy accomplishes is buying time before the inevitable backstabbing happens…generally works well against things that are not DD eles or AI heavy builds, not that MM necro is a problem, just that pistol 5 generally won’t grant me the wide reaching protection from attacks it does to other builds.
and while you “waited it out”, they captured the point and you lost “the fight”. The only current competitive pvp mode is capture point – killing someone (or not dying for that matter) don’t count nearly as much as capturing and holding points.
If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
I am not sure if our dev is actually reading all our threads.
They have to fix our class. Please take sometime to read our issues and fix it.
I was meaning CC heavy players or those with interrupt builds can’t do much against people with stab, not the other way around. Last I checked boon strips aren’t that common outside of signet necros and shatter mesmers, the latter which has to hit you with the shatter (clones) to remove the boons which you should be dodging anyway.
Yeah I guess that’s where the differences lie as I don’t play PvP on premodern teams so I don’t end up against or in teams often where people will come and help someone out and they only notice when the point gets decapped/full capped.
Also there seems to be 2 different discussions going on, one about the way stealth and counters are in PvP and the other about WvW.
In WvW stealth is waaaayy too forgiving and abusive we all know that. To the gentleman implying I’m against unskilled opponents, no offence but if you’re getting beaten by a warrior I think it’s the other way around, they just don’t have anything going for them once you kite and wait out the stances. Again, speaking in WvW in this case as that’s the only place I’ve ever seen a ranger use sic em.
I am not sure if our dev is actually reading all our threads.
Probably.
They have to fix our class. Please take sometime to read our issues and fix it.
Unlikely.
I don’t get it either…. i understand if they wanted to tone down class a bit but they didn’t just do that. They nerfed many thief skills across the board over years and buffed other professions. Then there is revealed handled out like candy on Christmas to everyone.
Thief went from 1v1 threat to independent utility pet in pvp that can’t fight on its own but is there to decap points and rez teammates. If nothing changes, come HoT there might be no thieves really left in pvp (besides some die hards and new players).
Maybe they are trying to force us to into DrD or revenant so we buy expansion, but really what a destructive way of marketing. Besides DrD is bad. Period.
It is really frustrating. You look at mesmers that fill exact same role and they get silverspooned beyond comparison. I do not understand devs. I simply don’t. I don’t see any logic in their balancing besides blatant class discrimination aimed at thieves. Who can protect us from devs? Nobody. Only choice is to quit game or reroll.
All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>
[Teef] guild :>
(edited by Cynz.9437)
Mesmer also has stealth :P
But it can handle itself just fine without it.
. Only choice is to quit game or reroll.
Yep. Unfortunate but true.
Resident Disgruntled, Coffee-drinking Charr.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
It is really frustrating. You look at mesmers that fill exact same role and they get silverspooned beyond comparison. I do not understand devs. I simply don’t. I don’t see any logic in their balancing besides blatant class discrimination aimed at thieves. Who can protect us from devs? Nobody. Only choice is to quit game or reroll.
And yet Mesmer is still not taken over thief, because a thief does a better job at that role than Mesmer and you’re deluding yourself to think otherwise.
The problem with thief is it’s had massive forgiving mechanics and builds. Stealth has not really had a whole lot of counter play for a long time and generally it’s not been a problem on other classes because they haven’t had more than kitten without smoke field blasting.
Remember old SD before the flanking strike change? You just couldn’t hit the things as they were in evade frames 90% of the time. No-one wants a return to that brain dead spam dodge till the enemy runs out of skills play.
I still think the best way forward is to ask for buffs on skills that don’t have stealth tied to them and generally don’t affect mobility. It would be nice to see a venom rework. I’d love to see a better signet trait, maybe remove a condition on signet use and reduce the might to 3. Haste and roll for initiative dropped down to 40s cool downs so they’re competitive.
Generally more options to make the lacking utility skills better. Weird thing is the more I play around with the traits, the more I see why they’re feeling kinda meh. When you pair them with daredevil a lot more viable for sustain builds.
Oh and let the 2-5 weapon skills interrupt the blooming auto. If I hit flanking strikes or death blossom I want it to evade now not a few seconds later after its finished several attacks.
Oh and Cynz, if you want a laugh/cry check out the balance list on the PvP forum if it hasn’t been locked yet.
(edited by apharma.3741)
. Only choice is to quit game or reroll.
Yep. Unfortunate but true.
There is a third choice offered by “he who knows his name”. Buy HoT and wait till staff can compete it was all a scheme I underestimated their work of balance as team. I kind of rerolled already I do have all classes after all.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread
The Dhuumfire thread
Good move. I have no hope since they haven’t done anything for more than a year. And the elite spec is a joke. I am glad I got my refund.
Good move. I have no hope since they haven’t done anything for more than a year. And the elite spec is a joke. I am glad I got my refund.
Did they fight you on the refund? I want one so I can move on to a new game.
Baer
No, they asked for my order number and other normal stuff. I have also mentioned the reason I am getting the refund.
. Only choice is to quit game or reroll.
Yep. Unfortunate but true.
There is a third choice offered by “he who knows his name”. Buy HoT and wait till staff can compete it was all a scheme I underestimated their work of balance as team. I kind of rerolled already I do have all classes after all.
Wait
vs
Pay money and wait
Lol ok
Just saying, if you want players to pay to be competent at a game with a specific class, you just moved into pay to win territory.
Resident Disgruntled, Coffee-drinking Charr.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
we are going too far
Black Thunders [BT] – Gandara
you guys did kind of take this out of proportion, i love this game for many things, and while thief is one of them i am confident that one day it will return to the fast paced 1v1 competent class we all came to love. have a little patience, because the thief forums are overflowing with backlash at the new engineer stuff, and the devs are surely working on everything as we speak.
although, a reassuring “yes we hear your voices and are working on xxxxx” would be very nice :/
i am confident that one day it will return to the fast paced 1v1 competent class we all came to love.
This was your first mistake.
Resident Disgruntled, Coffee-drinking Charr.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
. Only choice is to quit game or reroll.
Yep. Unfortunate but true.
There is a third choice offered by “he who knows his name”. Buy HoT and wait till staff can compete it was all a scheme I underestimated their work of balance as team. I kind of rerolled already I do have all classes after all.
Wait
vs
Pay money and wait
Lol ok
Just saying, if you want players to pay to be competent at a game with a specific class, you just moved into pay to win territory.
They didn’t by any means move to a p2w territory. That term is used way too lightly now a days… Best example of p2w is Archage on the NA side, just go have a look at their cash-shop. Or any other korean game, on the korean side.
Their actions (weird nerfs, gutting a trait line for elite, …) and inactions (not really fixing anything) have given them the bad rep. That and how they handled certain things, like the bundling of the core game and veteran rewards…
Like if you get past the hype they build up every so often to cover something up and look at the development/releasing of HoT, they really aren’t making too many good moves.
. Only choice is to quit game or reroll.
Yep. Unfortunate but true.
There is a third choice offered by “he who knows his name”. Buy HoT and wait till staff can compete it was all a scheme I underestimated their work of balance as team. I kind of rerolled already I do have all classes after all.
Wait
vs
Pay money and wait
Lol ok
Just saying, if you want players to pay to be competent at a game with a specific class, you just moved into pay to win territory.
That’s a risk they will take at each expansion and it seems that the base class is balanced around the elite spec instead of the other way around so some players will be lost in the process.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread
The Dhuumfire thread
. Only choice is to quit game or reroll.
Yep. Unfortunate but true.
There is a third choice offered by “he who knows his name”. Buy HoT and wait till staff can compete it was all a scheme I underestimated their work of balance as team. I kind of rerolled already I do have all classes after all.
Wait
vs
Pay money and wait
Lol ok
Just saying, if you want players to pay to be competent at a game with a specific class, you just moved into pay to win territory.
That’s a risk they will take at each expansion and it seems that the base class is balanced around the elite spec instead of the other way around so some players will be lost in the process.
But fear not! The new wave of blood will wash away the old and bring in waves of revenue through the gem-store (since new poeple don’t have skins).
Still having fun and strong as s/d thief,tho I totally agree and asks for the reasons anet let the cele elem plauge rage on and yet nerf the s/d spec which was not that common in first place.