Guild Wars 2

I’m curious mostly due to the impending backstab nerf. Being as I play a backstab thief I’m sort of just wondering what my alternatives are. I know that condition build is a possibility, but I’m wondering about others. It seems like if they nerf backstab it’ll have to either remain a viable build as a whole, which would mean buffs to other areas of the build (of which there are none because of the nature of the build) or compensate by buffing skills in a manner that would create entirely new build options. we can’t possibly have just two viable choices, but somehow they’re all i hear about.

I don’t want specifics, more just general build archetypes such as what skill a build might be centered around. thoughts on what could be buffed to provide more options would be welcome as well.

Damage:
Great builds:
D/D death blossom condition build
D/D backstab build
Good builds:
P/D condition thief
Viable builds:
P/P unload spam
Utility:
Great:
None
Good:
S/P with venom sharing
Viable:
S/D with venom sharing
D/P with venom sharing
Support:
None
General:
Anything with shortbow

Don’t forget “Dazychain” S/D, combat medic with venom share heals + stealth heals/revives, and bunker stealth builds. There’s also a lot of Acrobatics+Trickery dodge/might synergy that can be pushed into most builds to completely change their playstyle.

As I’ve said in other threads, I’d like to see the backstab nerf come in the form of endurance play. Maybe stealing endurance from the enemy.

S/D dazes by themselves do not bring enough utility to be a separate viable build really.
Venom share build includes mass stealth things.
Stealth bunkers should really disappear. Acrobatics/trickery and dodges are part of db build.
And I only listed general directions of builds for spvp and wvw. PvE is much more demanding to hard effects than raw skill of player so it is pointless to try to discuss. For any given pve situation there will be exactly one build most suited for it no matter the skill level.

Ichishi.9613:

S/D dazes by themselves do not bring enough utility to be a separate viable build really.

Depends on your number of targets really. I mentioned it because going heavy C&D and daze duration is a big departure in traits and playstyle from other S/D setups, they don’t work the same at all.

I would rate S/D highter actualy, since its much better then d/p. Probably on same scale as pistol whip, if you play well with your invisibiitys.

Stin.9781:

I would rate S/D highter actualy, since its much better then d/p. Probably on same scale as pistol whip, if you play well with your invisibiitys.

This is why I don’t think he should’ve tried to rank the builds, just listed viable ones. Lets not get caught up in the arguing over subjective rankings.

Wouldnt consider D/D a great build for DB condition, and that is even the main one I run. The set needs more bleed/condition stacking ability for less init. More of a so so build

Hey, I am not a wiki with builds. I merely stated my opinions. I tried all of those with a sole exception I could not try all of those on every gear stat combination.
I would personally never consider any condition build great due to their limitations, but DB is simply too good by itself.

I run a condition control build. It eats any opponents I seem to encounter. Most people are too impatient for control builds it seems though.

I was really waiting for this kind of thread to arise.

I’m playing an S/D 10-30-30-0-0 build.

Damage builds:

D/D

Works well both as a glass cannon ( 30-30-0-0-10) and as a stealth bunker cannon ( 10-30-30-0-0 with condition removal and heal on stealth).

Any point spent in acrobatic is really a waste on a power build.

Works well also as a bunker bleed build ( 0-0-30-20-20) with caltrops, heal on stealth and vigor spam.

One of the few high survivability build the thief has.

S/P

Not viable at all, no matter how you build. After the nerf on pistol whip, the damage is worse than simply autoattacking, and you won’t even bring down a brainless monkey with this set, as long as he slots a stunbreaker ( something any people with half a brain does).

If you want to venom share, condition builds are by far better.

P/D

Good set for condition builds with venom share in every shape. Sadly current meta is developed on bunkers on points, and a venom share thief doesn’t offer as much support as a bunker ele, since it’s less resilient.

According to meta shifting, this could change and become one of the most competitive thief set ups

D/P

Not viable. There’s nothing D/P does which D/D can’t do better, if not soloing NPCs in nifhel and foefire.

But we still have weapon switching outside of combat, so you can easily switch to a pistol and be fabolous.

P/P

Absolutely a horrible set. No sinergy with traits, not enough ways to kite, the damage is mediocre and your survivability is laughable.

By far the worst set, currently.

The shortbow is capable to deal a lot more damage, have more utility and more kiting options.

S/D

This is my favourite set.

But there’s only ONE way to play it effectively ( maximizing everything), or rather power/crit 10-30-30-0-0 stealth bunker build, with runes of the mesmer/sigil of paralyzation.

Otherwise you don’t have enough damage to bring down bunkers ( still usually against a guardian it comes with a draw) or enough survivability against other builds, especially heavy condition ones.

FS is an absolutely horrible skill which needs reahuling asap: there’s no point in using it over the C&D+ tactical strike spam if not in very, VERY specific situations ( cough cough GUARDIANS OR WARRIORS cough cough).

That’s it.

Mrbig.8019:

S/D

This is my favourite set.

But there’s only ONE way to play it effectively ( maximizing everything), or rather power/crit 10-30-30-0-0 stealth bunker build, with runes of the mesmer/sigil of paralyzation.

Otherwise you don’t have enough damage to bring down bunkers ( still usually against a guardian it comes with a draw) or enough survivability against other builds, especially heavy condition ones.

FS is an absolutely horrible skill which needs reahuling asap: there’s no point in using it over the C&D+ tactical strike spam if not in very, VERY specific situations ( cough cough GUARDIANS OR WARRIORS cough cough).

Only one way to play S/D? I run a 0/30/20/20/0 build and centre around consistent dodges, stealth, stunbreaks and control (immobilise + daze + boon strip + blinds) while dealing hard damage (full power/crit gear). It’s extremely survivable and powerful, even against superior numbers.

Also disagree with FS being completely useless. It needs improvement, but the boon strip is EXTREMELY useful against bunkers and the attack itself is lovely against players that attempt to root burst at close range eg. 100b. I run with Withdraw, BP, SR and Infiltrator’s Signet with Thieves Guild and Golemancer runes (the golem is underrated). It’s a blast.

Mrbig.8019:

S/D

This is my favourite set.

But there’s only ONE way to play it effectively ( maximizing everything), or rather power/crit 10-30-30-0-0 stealth bunker build, with runes of the mesmer/sigil of paralyzation.

S/D is my favourite set too, and I have been using it since day 1 I play my thief. But of course you don’t be mean it when you said 10/30/30/0/0 is the only way to play S/D effectively right? your build is a good build. if it fits your playstyle, and then all power to you, but there will always people play things differently, and achieve the same effectiveness. so yeah, S/D have more than only one build to be effective.

Here let me compile couple of S/D build:
Mrbig S/D with 10/30/30/0/0
I can see the good point of Auesis’s build with 0/30/20/20/0.
or maybe Kutsus’s build with 25/30/0/15/0.
or maybe Rainy’s build with 10/30/10/0/20
or maybe my current preferred build with 10/30/0/15/15.
or maybe 0/30/0/25/15

the only same point of all the above is 30 in critical strike, and that’s a staple traits for S/D. the rest, just play around and find what suits you the best.

5/15/10/20/20 S/P & SB – Is what iv been running & never had a problem in PvE or PvP.

I stack Vit, Pre, Pow, Crit Dmg on my gear and trinkets.

Dont know why people are so focused on having to max one or the other. With this build i can be quite effective in dungeons without getting crushed in one hit and i basically crit most of the time so my initiative is never drained for long, which means i can keep blind/daze or whatever im doing going. Combind it with high crit dmg, well yummy!.

Either way there is plenty of ways to play your thief. :-)

Auesis.7301:

Mrbig.8019:

S/D

This is my favourite set.

But there’s only ONE way to play it effectively ( maximizing everything), or rather power/crit 10-30-30-0-0 stealth bunker build, with runes of the mesmer/sigil of paralyzation.

Otherwise you don’t have enough damage to bring down bunkers ( still usually against a guardian it comes with a draw) or enough survivability against other builds, especially heavy condition ones.

FS is an absolutely horrible skill which needs reahuling asap: there’s no point in using it over the C&D+ tactical strike spam if not in very, VERY specific situations ( cough cough GUARDIANS OR WARRIORS cough cough).

Only one way to play S/D? I run a 0/30/20/20/0 build and centre around consistent dodges, stealth, stunbreaks and control (immobilise + daze + boon strip + blinds) while dealing hard damage (full power/crit gear). It’s extremely survivable and powerful, even against superior numbers.

Also disagree with FS being completely useless. It needs improvement, but the boon strip is EXTREMELY useful against bunkers and the attack itself is lovely against players that attempt to root burst at close range eg. 100b. I run with Withdraw, BP, SR and Infiltrator’s Signet with Thieves Guild and Golemancer runes (the golem is underrated). It’s a blast.

semutant.2984:

S/D is my favourite set too, and I have been using it since day 1 I play my thief. But of course you don’t be mean it when you said 10/30/30/0/0 is the only way to play S/D effectively right? your build is a good build. if it fits your playstyle, and then all power to you, but there will always people play things differently, and achieve the same effectiveness. so yeah, S/D have more than only one build to be effective.

Here let me compile couple of S/D build:
Mrbig S/D with 10/30/30/0/0
I can see the good point of Auesis’s build with 0/30/20/20/0.
or maybe Kutsus’s build with 25/30/0/15/0.
or maybe Rainy’s build with 10/30/10/0/20
or maybe my current preferred build with 10/30/0/15/15.
or maybe 0/30/0/25/15

the only same point of all the above is 30 in critical strike, and that’s a staple traits for S/D. the rest, just play around and find what suits you the best.

there’s a reason why 10-30-30-0-0 is the ONLY way to play S/D, i’m not saying thing out of thin air.

S/D is a set relying on control, while dealing costant pressure with its high DPS.

30 in critical strike is really a no brainer, for executioner.

15 points in shadow arts are simply too important, since you’re supposed to stay stealthed a lot.

we have now 25 trait point to put.

By following Shadow arts, you can obtain a HUGE healing boost thanks to Shadow rejuvenation ( 340 heal per tick per sec while in stealth) PLUS the big condition removal while stealthed ( and since you’re supposed to stay stealthed a lot, cond removal+ heal totally SHUTS DOWN condition builds, and enge bunker with them).

With it, Hide in Shadows can heal you from 0 to 70 % hp. Shadow Refuge heals you for 5 k .

Moreover, you obtain 2 stacks of might for 15 secs every 2 secs you stay stealthed.

Again, it’s too much sinergy for a set DESIGNED for those who want to stay stealthed a lot.

this leaves you with 10 points.
Mug.
No brainer.
Huge burst damage ( when used under 50 % hp) to spike down a foe.

By going 0-30-20-20 ( a build i used tons of times) you lose not only the healing boost ( assassin’s reward is VERY inferior to shadow rejuvenation currently, even more since S/D builds usually have only 12 ini as a pool).

Surely you become a better roamer, but Signet of Shadow can give you the same mobility by only slotting a single signet, instead of losing so much survivability.

Yes, because PARADOXICALLY you lose survivability ( healing capacities) by going with acrobatics.

Not only that, you also lose the burst damage capability of Mug.

And only for some more dodges.

moreover….

Due to stealth not preventing capping, you can’t build a S/D bunker build effectively ( with pow-tuf-vit gear): the only way to go is high damage.

tl:dr;

S/D, since currently FS is kinda useless, is a set NATURALLY built on stealth: you should be out of stealth only while your daze expires ( perfectly possible since Tactical strike, with proper runes/sigils lasts EXACTLY like the revealed debuff), only to go again in stealth.

The set is based on chain-dazing, and HAVE to use stealth properly in order to do this.

Enhancing stealth at its max is the most efficient way tp build an S/D thief.

Other builds MAY be viable, but the most efficient and powerful is surely the pow/crit bunker 10-30-30-0-0- build.

By a long shot.

God I hate to put it this way…)

@MrBig – So what you are saying is it is like the Rogue stun builds of old vanillia WoW(cringe)

Honestly I like that play a lot more then the “BS burst and hope to god it lands, then hide for 1min.” I am not against burst builds and BS I just hate being worthless and blowing all my skills for 1 kill.

Build looks promising I must say, what extra skills are you using with it? 6-0 and then how does it work in WvW? I currently like Slic’s Wild Bill setup for WvW

Mrbig.8019:

I was really waiting for this kind of thread to arise.

I’m playing an S/D 10-30-30-0-0 build.

Damage builds:

D/D

Works well both as a glass cannon ( 30-30-0-0-10) and as a stealth bunker cannon ( 10-30-30-0-0 with condition removal and heal on stealth).

Any point spent in acrobatic is really a waste on a power build.

Works well also as a bunker bleed build ( 0-0-30-20-20) with caltrops, heal on stealth and vigor spam.

One of the few high survivability build the thief has.

Could you shed more light on these builds for me? I am not a huge fan of glass cannon builds I like to be able to survive and not have to hide out after blowing cool downs.

I should play around more, but I am struggling with finding a build I can take some abuse with, pull some decent damage and be able to handle a 1v1+ situation…

Sorry mrbig, but it’s a little far-fetched to stamp down your build as the only build that dominates all others in its category because of what you personally think the weapon set is meant for. It’s a nice build, yes, and it works well, but so does mine, and so does everyone else’s. Everyone plays differently, and everyone builds their characters to fit how they play. I use stealth as combinations for my attacks and for repositions, and not as the focus of the build, and I’m multiple times as useful as I would be just chain-dazing because that’s simply how I fit my style of play. IS, FS and auto-attack are almost my bread and butter until I feel the need to reduce pressure and then the periodic (but not repeated) stealths come out. I combine my playstyle with Infiltrator’s Signet (the extra shadowstep comes in handy at certain points but I like to stack the +1/10s with the Quick Recovery trait passive), BP, RfI (if necessary, Shadow Refuge like I mention in my other post) and Withdraw. The insane amount of evades, blinds, immobilises and stunbreaks I can pull out are far more valuable to me than some more spike DPS. I also don’t feel the need for the benefits of stealth regen in my current style (and believe me, I’ve used it a lot before). I run the evasive and blind route so that most of the time I don’t get hit to begin with. If something goes wrong, since IS will be primed 100% of the time, quick escape and recovery is easy (especially with Withdraw’s quick CD, and also not to mention that IS’s return removes a condition, which can be re-triggered without movement by de-targeting, ergo, condition cleansing from a safe distance). I simply don’t need Mug’s burst. I run as part of a duo or a 3-man group and I’m about sustained, threatening damage while placing pressure and diverting enemy attention. My role is a pseudo-tank that operates by avoiding damage completely instead of absorbing it, with DPS to compliment. Going for 10 points in to a burst I’ll hardly ever concern myself with in a prolonged battle and missing out on more sustainable evade/shadowsteps from Quick Recovery/endurance gain is not something I’m going to ever consider.

Don’t go telling people that they should be only going down one route when other routes work just as well. Experimentation is key. The player matters, too.

S/P Signet Thief is viable as a damage/survivability thief (people saying PW’s damage is matched by auto attack aren’t building for Power/Toughness/Crit Dmg). It absolutely owns in PvE and with support it owns in PvP/WvW.

In a single WvW session I got 28 kills, trick is you need to immobilize or surprise them with shadow step, pop haste and then PW them. If done correctly you’ll do 14k+ damage in a very short period of time.

I prefer to rate my builds in accordance to situations in pvp where opponents are at same skill level.
This brings few things in into building:
Against organized bunch of players relying on staying in melee is before all a suicide even in stealth, and even if thief can survive in that position no adequate player will allow free melee move on himself except the ones thief can force on him – shadowstep/attack combos, immobile/basilisk venom. At best, thief in melee range can make 2-3 key attacks to land if he is not countered properly right away.
This tells us few things: in that short amount of time thief can be viable in melee to be useful he must be able to make significant amount of damage thus burst OR to be able to do damage after retreating thus conditions (if they are not removed). Anything less and thief’s effort is insignificant. The other way around is ranged attacks. While P/P does not have that much of a burst, it is a range option with a lot of sustained dps that benefits much more from being in a group than many melee options.
In my opinion, any kind of thief build that is not focused solely on damage must have a pistol offhand. On demand interrupt and an aoe blind makes it superior to any other option potential benefit and utility-wise.
Dagger offhand offers incredible spike and medium cripple in some of situations, but cloak and dagger being slow and melee range stealth ability requires a lot of investment just to be able to land it few guaranteed times.
Edit: D/P has incredible potential of having rather costly, but requirement-free gap-closing re-usable stealth.

BabelFish

(people saying PW’s damage is matched by auto attack aren’t building for Power/Toughness/Crit Dmg).

Both of these skills have 100 % power-based damage, they’ll scale exactly the same with power/precision/crit damage. If they’re the same naked (and they pretty much are), they’re the same with full Berserker’s exotic gear. Pistol Whip isn’t a damage increase, but it does have a place as a skill that does an interrupt, evades, and generates excellent hit volume.

Ichishi.9613:

Against organized bunch of players relying on staying in melee is before all a suicide even in stealth, and even if thief can survive in that position no adequate player will allow free melee move on himself except the ones thief can force on him – shadowstep/attack combos, immobile/basilisk venom. At best, thief in melee range can make 2-3 key attacks to land if he is not countered properly right away.

This is where heavy cripple comes into play. Cripple on auto, dancing dagger, and dodge caltrops allow you to dictate range without having to spam closing abilities.

Your stance on viable builds makes more sense after having explained your general engagement doctrine as a thief, but I think that doctrine is more a result of your opinions and playstyle than you want to believe.