Guild Wars 2

I’d like to hear your thoughts on this. I believe that to make d/d viable the following needs to happen:
-Blind added to CnD
-Hit radius of CnD increased so it’s more reliable
-Shadow shot damage nerfed (d/d will never be a top build while d/p is allowed to dominate the thief section of the game. And don’t say d/p is hard, it is easy and any thief worth their salt will tell you the same thing, it is cancerous in it’s current state and must be dealt with)
-Dagger #4 damage increased
-Pulmonary impact damage reduced by 50% and icd of 5 sec applied (again reducing d/p dominance will allow people to experiment with other sets without being shut down by every d/p thief in the game)
-Revealed duration reduced to 3 sec in pvp so d/d can be utilized the same way in every part of the game
-Removing aoe reveal from scrapper, rev, and dh. (If there are going to be reveal skills they need to work like sic em where you target the thief and apply it, not just shut down someone’s build instantly because you spammed your skills. Also reveal application skills will be dodgeable)

That’s just stuff I threw together, it’s been a bit of a rough night so if the stuff seems overreactive then that’s why. Otherwise, discuss!

Buffing Cloak and Dagger wouldn’t be a good thing. A stealth without any real CD is already strong enough. There need to be counters to it and that counter is reveal.
Last I check, the other classes can’t spam their reveal because they have a CD on it.
Dagger #4 isn’t meant to deal damage. It’s meant to cripple a foe at range.
And you didn’t mention #3, which is the most important part of D/D.

D/P is meant for power damage.
D/D is meant for condition damage.

Try this if you want to play D/D.

staff thief destroys d/p thief any day of the year

snaplemouton.1294:

Buffing Cloak and Dagger wouldn’t be a good thing. A stealth without any real CD is already strong enough. There need to be counters to it and that counter is reveal.
Last I check, the other classes can’t spam their reveal because they have a CD on it.
Dagger #4 isn’t meant to deal damage. It’s meant to cripple a foe at range.
And you didn’t mention #3, which is the most important part of D/D.

D/P is meant for power damage.
D/D is meant for condition damage.

Try this if you want to play D/D.

Not really.

D/P is meant to stack stealth and control between stealth, D/D is meant to have better burst and ways to stay alive while revealed.

D/D is just ineffective because DB and Dancing Dagger are strictly terrible skills for power when compared to D/P, DrD brought in free leap finishers potentially for D/P to get cheaper and more consistent stealth access, and CnD is overly-expensive for how difficult it is to land these days when half of the professions have spammable blocks, evades, invulns, etc.

D/P’s better because it’s pretty much carried by Shadow Shot and has utility coming from blind pressure and interrupt potential.

D/D is intended to be a hybrid set. As such, it should be dependent on traits for its performance. As it is, D/D condi’s baseline performance is too high due to how strong DB is in tandem with lots of active evasion options available via Acro and DrD, while power is dependent on high-risk/low-reward CnD, poor defensive options, poor chasing options, and lower coefficients and utility, and is thus dependent on building very heavily just for the set.

If CnD and DB took substantial overhauls to unify how the sets play more, while bolstering trait dependency on condi DD but upping its potential, we’d see both sets do well for themselves.

I’ll reference my post here for more specific details for how this could be approached:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dagger-and-crit-strikes-tweaks/first#post6220602

CnD needs to be unblockable, cost less (4 or 5) and when it doesn’t stealth cost less init (2 or 3). Dancing Dagger needs to immobilize not cripple.

Nerfing D/P is not a solution as the thief already is a relatively weak class outside of roaming and +1. Removing player reveal options is also a bad idea since players need a counter play to stealth and there are so few already.

Lexander.4579:

staff thief destroys d/p thief any day of the year

Shadow Shot is crazy good, the dagger AA is stronger than staff and quasi perma-invis is far more utility than staff has. Staff’s strong point is multiple enemies but single target, D/P is clearly stronger. Course the D/P Staff combo is indeed stronger than D/P SB.

CnD spam needs to be punishable. BV provides unblockable attacks, and as such, making CnD unblockable and redundant and punish the Guardian too heavily. If you whiff, you whiff. 6 init is too much for the effect gained, and the skill should be a dependency for condition D/D just as it is for power. D/D is not fixed as a whole by just buffing CnD. Skills 3 – 5 need a rework in conjunction with some traits, too.

Shadow Shot needs a nerf. There is no justification for its damage output for how much the skill itself does. D/P players are often carried by this skill alone, especially since it and a few AA’s often is enough to kill people.

When comparing damage alone, the staff AA is still stronger than dagger AA. Staff AA is the best possible damage source per unit of time the thief has. D/D is also objectively better DPS than D/P because the OH pistol causes a DPS loss since pistols have lower base weapon damage than daggers. However, from a PvP perspective, there is little reason to need high DPS, just consistency and burst. Both Staff and D/P are dominant options available to the thief, however I believe staff requires more skill to perform as well as D/P in competitive environments, and it is highly dependent on the Daredevil; should DrD be nerfed, staff indirectly takes a hit, too, while D/P operates independently of the ES.

DeceiverX.8361:

CnD spam needs to be punishable. BV provides unblockable attacks, and as such, making CnD unblockable and redundant and punish the Guardian too heavily. If you whiff, you whiff.

The thief is a dueling class built around single target skills that basically cannot handle a decently played group based DH or Guardian even when running the self described OP D/P weaponset. It has no prayer with main D/D in its current state. It would only have a moderate chance with the proposed changes.

Thieves should be able to tear apart a group based Guardian and right now outside of some very specific builds (D/P not being one of them) cannot even get near one.

DeceiverX.8361:

Shadow Shot needs a nerf. There is no justification for its damage output for how much the skill itself does. D/P players are often carried by this skill alone, especially since it and a few AA’s often is enough to kill people.

Keep in mind D/P is a single target skill that damage wise isn’t even comparable to the AA rotation or Heart Seeker. Its main advantage is the teleport/blind. Anyone using Shadow Shot for spam damage on a non-blocking opponent needs to go back to L2P school.

DeceiverX.8361:

When comparing damage alone, the staff AA is still stronger than dagger AA. Staff AA is the best possible damage source per unit of time the thief has.

In a single rotation, Staff does more damage. However, the Staff rotation is roughly 20 percent slower. This makes them comparable on DPS on paper. However the dagger will spike more crits and applies poison while the Staff does a vuln and has a lightweight reflect for added damage.

The math with 3k power against 2.5k armor (hopefully I am not off somewhere):

Damage done = (Skill coefficient * Weapon strength * Power) / Armor
Damage done = (Skill coefficient * Weapon strength * 3000) / 2500

Dagger: (0.8*1200) + (0.85*1200) + (1.1*1200) = 3300
Staff: (0.75*1320) + (0.75*1320) + (1.75*1320) = 4290
Sword: (0.8*1200) + (0.8*1200) + (1.3*1200) = 3480
Shortbow: (0.55*1200) = 660
Pistol: (0.5*1200) = 600

Now factor in the rotation speed with Dagger as the baseline:

Dagger: 3300 * 1 = 3300
Staff: 4290 * 0.785 = 3368
Sword: 3480 * 0.893 = 3108
Shortbow: 660 * 1.768 = 1167
Pistol: 600 * 2.47 = 1482

Even with the bleeds, Pistol looks absolutely anemic since it is the only single target AA here. Shortbow is also poor since it has no AA damage component and it doesn’t hit that many more targets than the other AAs.

In sPvP the thief will always be weak in 1v1 until stats are changed or the entire class design is redone. Period. Scalar-based damage strictly does not work with such low stats. If you go into WvW, the tables turn and the thief is capable since it can scale as needed.

I can consistently spike a group-oriented guardian in WvW. Full sentinel, nomad, whatever. It doesn’t matter. And I run core thief DA/CS/Tr signets. That shouldn’t be a build winning against our supposed hard-counter. Power DH gives me some trouble when played well due to the passive aegis preventing the reliability of my backstab, but still, it is not a particularly awful matchup like people often complain it is. A lot of thieves get hung up that when they Shadow Shot into a DH they get burned by the traps he’s standing on. Re-think the engage and everything goes nicely. As a power D/D main for over three years now, I can say that a large portion of the source of complaint from people who have tried to play D/D power is a lack of expertise with the set and using its abilities to their fullest. That’s not to say DH isn’t strong against the thief or that D/D isn’t weaker than it should be, no; it’s that a guard needs those invulns and blocks to stay alive against virtually anything, especially an offensively-minded thief. If CnD was unblockable, I’m almost absolutely certain I’d never lose to a guardian in a fight ever again. If it ignored invulns, it’s need to see its initiative cost put to at minimum 10. Like any other weapon skill, if a guard sees it coming, he deserves to get the block if he times his virtue or shout well for a clutch aegis. A high-hitting stealth-gaining ability is not exception, even if the set is relatively weak.

Shadow Shot does too much damage. I’ve actually OHKO’d people with it in WvW. I’ve fought other thieves with relative success using only that skill and no AA. The best thieves in the game will tell you the ability is overtuned. People don’t like playing D/P because this skill is a crutch that lets bad thieves do way better than they should. It’s single target, but so is Heartseeker. And Shadow Shot has a coefficient rivaling the damage of < 50% Heartseeker, with double the effective range, an unblockable blind with negatable attack into a backstab (unlike HS), and a shadowstep component. It’s simply too much for its initiative cost. At 6 init? Okay, I can see it. At 4? No way.

Regarding staff DPS, I speak for group environments where DPS actually matters; the staff is dominant per hit when also paired with a plethora of other modifiers. I don’t mean to say the gap is large – it isn’t – but it still is there.

-Pulmonary impact damage reduced by 50% and icd of 5 sec applied (again reducing d/p dominance will allow people to experiment with other sets without being shut down by every d/p thief in the game)

i completely disagree with this change that trait is not OP if anything head shot should be nerf. to have a cast time. but thief not strong enough class for them to nerf even a broken mech on thief.

WTH… suggesting nerfs to an already fairly weak competitive class? Nerfing a skill or trait doesn’t make everything around it stronger.

Pulmonary Impact too strong? It doesn’t crit and relies solely on power. All it does is turn a Head Shot which is completely foiled by stab, blocks, evasion, etc into a moderate boost in overall damage. Unload actually hits much harder all the time. A Daggers AA rotation hits harder.

Blind on CnD could be interesting but I doubt it would change much in regards to off-hand dagger’s use – increasing cleave range would be a good idea.

I agree a Shadow Shot nerf is needed, although not necessarily the damage. I think an increased initiative cost or perhaps even a range nerf so it’s not so relentlessly spammy as a gap closer with large damage.

Dancing Dagger is pretty great since the projectile speed has been increased. I don’t think it needs anything else really.

Pulmonary Impact is a weird one. For the most part it’s fine, but when combined with Head Shot it becomes a bit too oppressive – kind of like Confounding Suggestions with Mantra of Distraction. Think you just have live with these things really.

The AoE reveal skills are all wrong and obvious band-aids from Anet to facilitate new players struggling with stealth attacks. Ideally, Anet would have designed a more robust system for revealing stealthed players that was all about a patient, aware Thief (or other class) that is actively monitoring its opponents actions before attempting an attack from stealth VS. the opponent anticipating a well timed active block to avoid the damage whilst also revealing the stealthed attacker. What we actually got was a wobbly system where revealed is only applied through eating damage from a stealthed attacker or using a ridiculous AoE reveal skill. Neither of these solutions are very good, but its too late to change anything now with all the HoT nonsense having escalated things to a point of no return.

D/D is already viable and needs no buffs.

D/P is fine and needs no nerfs

Condi d/d is how you play it now. Stop asking for buffs on a weaponset that is such a low skill set

Condi D/D is cheesy and spammy. It requires some good timing to make the best of it, however, it’s still pretty bad considering what else you can do (p/d). If death blossom was power based and evaded the full duration, d/d would be stronger. Dancing dagger should be replaced entirely because thieves don’t need to cripple enemies when they can teleport to them.

So I’ve been running this.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn0MB9OhFOBOmCkmiFqiaO77+wvLCCgDw7CGytD-TJRAQBL4RAAgzAwELDkl9HAA

In PVP. It’s effective. When you kill a foe you get you endurance back, but you don’t have to stomp them. if they die after you hit them you still get the endurance. I have fought 4v1, and never run out of endurance before. Dragon hunters tend to shut it down, because for some reason even if you make a trap miss by dodging through it, the daze still hits you. have not figured that out yet. there’s that stupid ranger bug that makes you not be able to move at all (even after clearing immobilize) but other than that the build works great.

Cecilia.5179:

X ability should be replaced entirely because Y class don’t need to do Z thing when they can do W stuff.

Fixed it for you.

Azukas.1426:

D/D is already viable and needs no buffs.

D/P is fine and needs no nerfs

Condi d/d is how you play it now. Stop asking for buffs on a weaponset that is such a low skill set

Condi d/d should have never existed to begin with. The set was designed with a power setup in mind as is evident by 4 out of the 5 skills on the set. The issue happened when they created the ability to apply multiple condis on a dodge and refill dodges constantly.

D/D power is some of the highest skill play you ever see on a thief which is why nobody uses it outside of gimmick 1 shots which are still done better and safer with d/p. What I am asking for is buffs to a set that requires significant skill and timing. I’ve posted enough times how much I hate condi evade builds and how if I had it my way I’d gut them without regret or a second thought. D/D power viability is being discussed not condi noob carry builds.

Cecilia.5179:

Condi D/D is cheesy and spammy. It requires some good timing to make the best of it, however, it’s still pretty bad considering what else you can do (p/d). If death blossom was power based and evaded the full duration, d/d would be stronger. Dancing dagger should be replaced entirely because thieves don’t need to cripple enemies when they can teleport to them.

In the case of d/d though you don’t have a ton of access to teleports. Granted the cripple duration isn’t much so it doesn’t have a huge effect but it imo is needed so d/d can have the ability to finish a kill without having to hs spam to their target to catch up. Unless they added a teleport to dancing dagger which I doubt they’d do.

Taobella.6597:

-Pulmonary impact damage reduced by 50% and icd of 5 sec applied (again reducing d/p dominance will allow people to experiment with other sets without being shut down by every d/p thief in the game)

i completely disagree with this change that trait is not OP if anything head shot should be nerf. to have a cast time. but thief not strong enough class for them to nerf even a broken mech on thief.

I agree headshot makes pulm too oppressive but 4k with no cd seems over the top to me so I’d rather see it down to something like 2k on a 5 sec cd.

Ario.8964:

Taobella.6597:

-Pulmonary impact damage reduced by 50% and icd of 5 sec applied (again reducing d/p dominance will allow people to experiment with other sets without being shut down by every d/p thief in the game)

i completely disagree with this change that trait is not OP if anything head shot should be nerf. to have a cast time. but thief not strong enough class for them to nerf even a broken mech on thief.

I agree headshot makes pulm too oppressive but 4k with no cd seems over the top to me so I’d rather see it down to something like 2k on a 5 sec cd.

but it was design to be stacked. only weapon that make it seem strong is head shot. we should solve core problem not nerf thief simply because d/p is strong.

if anet really wanted to they could change how mech of how it scale on dmg based on how you stun someone say something like.

1x dmg main hand cc being first 1 – 3 skills
.5x dmg on offhand weapon cc 4 -5 skills
1.5x on uility cc. 6 – 9 skills
2x on elite 10 skills

this would globally nerf D/P itself but raise overall usefulness of the trait with all other weapon set.

All they need to do is give CnD a blind. D/P would still be better, but it would at least give D/D a chance to deal with the obscene power creep in this game. Until then, I guess we’re just supposed to play daredevil and spam dodges, stealth, and interrupts all day. Because that’s super fun to play as and against /s.

EDIT: Oh god, some of the things in this thread. D/D shouldn’t be balanced as a condi or hybrid spec. That’s absurd. We need less spam in this game- not more 3333333. Rework Death Blossom to make a condi route optional while not being completely brain dead, give CnD a blind, and call it a day. We don’t need unblockable skills. Dancing Dagger is fine. The set doesn’t need an immob or more damage or anything else. Jesus.

Ario.8964:

Azukas.1426:

D/D is already viable and needs no buffs.

D/P is fine and needs no nerfs

Condi d/d is how you play it now. Stop asking for buffs on a weaponset that is such a low skill set

Condi d/d should have never existed to begin with. The set was designed with a power setup in mind as is evident by 4 out of the 5 skills on the set. The issue happened when they created the ability to apply multiple condis on a dodge and refill dodges constantly.

D/D power is some of the highest skill play you ever see on a thief which is why nobody uses it outside of gimmick 1 shots which are still done better and safer with d/p. What I am asking for is buffs to a set that requires significant skill and timing. I’ve posted enough times how much I hate condi evade builds and how if I had it my way I’d gut them without regret or a second thought. D/D power viability is being discussed not condi noob carry builds.

This is completely opinion on your part. D/D condi has been,around well before daredevil was a thing. Just because you despise it doesn’t make it go away so any buff to D/D is a buff to the condi set as well. Please see why PD was never correctly buffed

As for it requiring the most skill….I don’t think so. You are really only using 2 skills in the set with maybe a 3rd in the form,of HS. The hardest part of the set in power is closing gaps and landing cnd.

Even then you can set up your skills for 3 shadow steps to ensure the cnd. It’s really a 1 track mind while playing it and if you sit down and think about it it requires minimal skill

A non combat/hit cnd to allow for stealth without being so close would do it well imo

Let it have blind and vuln but shift the damage to backstab

Let death blossom be a mix of port and evade

They could make d/d more viable if they lowered CnD ini Cost to 4 and it would MMR be overpowered since revealed is a thing……

Azukas.1426:

Ario.8964:

Azukas.1426:

D/D is already viable and needs no buffs.

D/P is fine and needs no nerfs

Condi d/d is how you play it now. Stop asking for buffs on a weaponset that is such a low skill set

Condi d/d should have never existed to begin with. The set was designed with a power setup in mind as is evident by 4 out of the 5 skills on the set. The issue happened when they created the ability to apply multiple condis on a dodge and refill dodges constantly.

D/D power is some of the highest skill play you ever see on a thief which is why nobody uses it outside of gimmick 1 shots which are still done better and safer with d/p. What I am asking for is buffs to a set that requires significant skill and timing. I’ve posted enough times how much I hate condi evade builds and how if I had it my way I’d gut them without regret or a second thought. D/D power viability is being discussed not condi noob carry builds.

This is completely opinion on your part. D/D condi has been,around well before daredevil was a thing. Just because you despise it doesn’t make it go away so any buff to D/D is a buff to the condi set as well. Please see why PD was never correctly buffed

As for it requiring the most skill….I don’t think so. You are really only using 2 skills in the set with maybe a 3rd in the form,of HS. The hardest part of the set in power is closing gaps and landing cnd.

Even then you can set up your skills for 3 shadow steps to ensure the cnd. It’s really a 1 track mind while playing it and if you sit down and think about it it requires minimal skill

Yes, the hardest part is landing CnD….. But that’s where the biggest problem lies in. D/P is far superior in this regards. It doesn’t require a target/hit. There is no comparison with the two. So yes, it does require much more skill.

Strictly speaking from WvW experience, I can’t count how many times I’ve missed CnD and have to use it again just to get a stealth off. It’s one of the reasons I have Black Powder on my bar. D/P doesn’t have that problem.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

They could make d/d more viable if they lowered CnD ini Cost to 4 and it would MMR be overpowered since revealed is a thing……

I think that would make miles of a difference. Personally, I’d love to see it not require a target to stealth at all.

What would be cool is to begin to see “on hit” things proc off of blocks because you still hit the target they just blocked the damage. It would still function as it currently does for evades and blinds because you failed to hit the target.

My issue with having CnD not require a target for stealth is you essentially give d/d thief free stealth stacking which takes the skill out of the set imo. Lowering ini cost and adding blind and extra hit radius would be great but removing target requirement is a bit too much imo.

@Azukas, yes condi d/d has been around but it was always a gimmick. It is just a deadly gimmick now which is why it needs to go. You should never have a build that is so carry mode a new player can pick up the build and go 1vX their first 10 minutes on it. Removing bleeds from death blossom and replacing it with an inhibiting condi like weakness, cripple, or chill but keeping overall damage low so power dodge spam doesn’t become a thing is all that needs to happen with #3. Having the on demand directional evade is crucial to allowing the set to survive when it can’t stealth but having bleeds on it makes faceroll condi d/d a thing. Don’t try to defend dodge spam builds, they are cancerous and we will never be able to balance things out if the class has a bunch of gimmicks preventing smart changes from happening.

As for skill, the set is all about patience and timing. You don’t get free stealths and ports to run away if you mess up a burst so you need the skill to do it right the first time every time. Ports don’t always ensure a successful CnD and without the ability to stealth stack you’re stuck out in the open until you land that CnD successfully. A good d/d thief will use every skill on the bar consistently. Only 1 trick ponies running full glass 1 shot gimmicks use only CnD with backstab. The skill required for this set to be mastered is the most of any set on the thief followed closely by any set with a sword. D/P is the lowest skill set a thief has because it’s so forgiving. Not saying it’s no skill involved but it’s ezmode compared to something like d/d.

Dancing dagger is pretty good. I care not for the cripple nor the dmg although it can crit for 2.3k on another low armoured build a d also air sigil procs. I use to burn enemy’s passive defence. Pop bv and throw a dagger. Good bye tempest defence, necro fear or even rev taunt. Most builds use signet of agility so most fear/taunt is removed instantly.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Azukas.1426:

Ario.8964:

Azukas.1426:

D/D is already viable and needs no buffs.

D/P is fine and needs no nerfs

Condi d/d is how you play it now. Stop asking for buffs on a weaponset that is such a low skill set

Condi d/d should have never existed to begin with. The set was designed with a power setup in mind as is evident by 4 out of the 5 skills on the set. The issue happened when they created the ability to apply multiple condis on a dodge and refill dodges constantly.

D/D power is some of the highest skill play you ever see on a thief which is why nobody uses it outside of gimmick 1 shots which are still done better and safer with d/p. What I am asking for is buffs to a set that requires significant skill and timing. I’ve posted enough times how much I hate condi evade builds and how if I had it my way I’d gut them without regret or a second thought. D/D power viability is being discussed not condi noob carry builds.

This is completely opinion on your part. D/D condi has been,around well before daredevil was a thing. Just because you despise it doesn’t make it go away so any buff to D/D is a buff to the condi set as well. Please see why PD was never correctly buffed

As for it requiring the most skill….I don’t think so. You are really only using 2 skills in the set with maybe a 3rd in the form,of HS. The hardest part of the set in power is closing gaps and landing cnd.

Even then you can set up your skills for 3 shadow steps to ensure the cnd. It’s really a 1 track mind while playing it and if you sit down and think about it it requires minimal skill

Yes, the hardest part is landing CnD….. But that’s where the biggest problem lies in. D/P is far superior in this regards. It doesn’t require a target/hit. There is no comparison with the two. So yes, it does require much more skill.

Strictly speaking from WvW experience, I can’t count how many times I’ve missed CnD and have to use it again just to get a stealth off. It’s one of the reasons I have Black Powder on my bar. D/P doesn’t have that problem.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

They could make d/d more viable if they lowered CnD ini Cost to 4 and it would MMR be overpowered since revealed is a thing……

I think that would make miles of a difference. Personally, I’d love to see it not require a target to stealth at all.

You want to talk WvW? Please don’t b/c you can CnD off countless creatures, walls, and mobs in WvW. Also I love when you face one of the BP HS thieves who rely solely on stealth. It’s the most telegraphed way to stealth in the entire game. If a thief uses Pistol 5 you KNOW wtf they are going to do so you interrupt it with ease. Heck try using scorpion wire when you fight a DP thief. I bet the free CnD BS will win you that fight.

Thieves are not a problem right now and in fact are under powered in the grand scheme of things. Y’all need to stop clamoring for nerfs on your own class when it’s not a problem. Also D/D meta >>>>> D/P meta 1v1. That’s the kitten truth too.

Azukas.1426:

You want to talk WvW? Please don’t b/c you can CnD off countless creatures, walls, and mobs in WvW. Also I love when you face one of the BP HS thieves who rely solely on stealth. It’s the most telegraphed way to stealth in the entire game. If a thief uses Pistol 5 you KNOW wtf they are going to do so you interrupt it with ease. Heck try using scorpion wire when you fight a DP thief. I bet the free CnD BS will win you that fight.

Thieves are not a problem right now and in fact are under powered in the grand scheme of things. Y’all need to stop clamoring for nerfs on your own class when it’s not a problem. Also D/D meta >>>>> D/P meta 1v1. That’s the kitten truth too.

You haven’t been in wvw as a thief for a very long time, right? But I bet you never played D/D anyway so my question is more than rhetorical.
Anyway: Good luck interrupting a D/P thief as a D/D thief – they will be able to stealth at least once, no matter whether or not you equip scorpion wire which won’t work ~50% of the time.

In general: As long as we don’t know what the devs are planning to do with the game it’s pretty hard to make a “plan” for D/D as 30% of D/Ds viability relies on what other classes can do, 30% on the traits which are locked behind merges or were removed altogether, 30% on wonky gameplay.

Ario.8964:

Azukas.1426:

D/D is already viable and needs no buffs.

D/P is fine and needs no nerfs

Condi d/d is how you play it now. Stop asking for buffs on a weaponset that is such a low skill set

Condi d/d should have never existed to begin with. The set was designed with a power setup in mind as is evident by 4 out of the 5 skills on the set. The issue happened when they created the ability to apply multiple condis on a dodge and refill dodges constantly.

D/D power is some of the highest skill play you ever see on a thief which is why nobody uses it outside of gimmick 1 shots which are still done better and safer with d/p. What I am asking for is buffs to a set that requires significant skill and timing. I’ve posted enough times how much I hate condi evade builds and how if I had it my way I’d gut them without regret or a second thought. D/D power viability is being discussed not condi noob carry builds.

Simply untrue . D/D was built as a hybrid set from day one. DB always applied bleeds on a dodge and in fact applied MORE of said bleeds in its early iteration. The fact it applied bleeds did not inhibit it in any way shape or from from being a power set. The Unicorn build is an old build, and not one that came about because of more dodges.
It coexisted with d/d power.

Claiming 4/5 of the skills in d/d as being power is proof it was intended as a power set is simply wrong. The nature of INI means a skill can be used over and over again. There no need to have multiples of the skills apply a condition.

That said AA on dagger applies Poison. #3 applies bleeds. This is as many applications off damaging conditions off the weapon set as p/d has. SB has two as well , one applying bleeds one applying poison. This does not mean conditions were never intended to be used on the SB set or on p/d.

What hurts d/d is not DB applying conditions. It is the number of blocks and AOES that exist in the game and the difficulty gaining stealth with the set as compared to the DP set which also has other more usable utility to deal with that namely the port off 3 with blind, and realtive ease of stealth compared to d/d.

Again nothing to do with DB as being used in a condition build.

The major reason there more people using this OLD build is because of those blocks and , invulnerabilities , and available AOES. It allows a person to protect themself as they apply damage. Easier to be sure , but if a person wants to play a low stealth build and rely on dodges to mitigate and cleanse damage instead than as a thief they are going to die pretty quickly unless they are able to dodge and evade the enemies attacks. The vitality pool of the thief has not increased. The toughness has not increased. The damage of all other professions including thief has gone UP. There now more reveal type skills in the game.

The counter to that is to dodge or evade more of those attacks or fail. That is the reality.

Your admittance that you just hate condition build and would just be rid of them clearly demonstrates your argument not from the perspective of game balance or making sets viable, it “I want everyone to like the same things i do and play the same way I do”. That is not going to happen.

Straegen.2938:

WTH… suggesting nerfs to an already fairly weak competitive class? Nerfing a skill or trait doesn’t make everything around it stronger.

Pulmonary Impact too strong? It doesn’t crit and relies solely on power. All it does is turn a Head Shot which is completely foiled by stab, blocks, evasion, etc into a moderate boost in overall damage. Unload actually hits much harder all the time. A Daggers AA rotation hits harder.

Unload also does not have to deal with stability. It generates might. It far superior to headshot for damage effectiveness. The majority of builds still use escapists for condition cleanse that I encounter. Those taking PI give that condition cleanse up. That is sufficient downside for that moderate increase in damage in my opinion. ICD on PI is not needed. It will only mean less PI and not a more balanced thief.

Less diversity.

babazhook.6805:

Ario.8964:

Azukas.1426:

D/D is already viable and needs no buffs.

D/P is fine and needs no nerfs

Condi d/d is how you play it now. Stop asking for buffs on a weaponset that is such a low skill set

Condi d/d should have never existed to begin with. The set was designed with a power setup in mind as is evident by 4 out of the 5 skills on the set. The issue happened when they created the ability to apply multiple condis on a dodge and refill dodges constantly.

D/D power is some of the highest skill play you ever see on a thief which is why nobody uses it outside of gimmick 1 shots which are still done better and safer with d/p. What I am asking for is buffs to a set that requires significant skill and timing. I’ve posted enough times how much I hate condi evade builds and how if I had it my way I’d gut them without regret or a second thought. D/D power viability is being discussed not condi noob carry builds.

Simply untrue . D/D was built as a hybrid set from day one. DB always applied bleeds on a dodge and in fact applied MORE of said bleeds in its early iteration. The fact it applied bleeds did not inhibit it in any way shape or from from being a power set. The Unicorn build is an old build, and not one that came about because of more dodges.
It coexisted with d/d power.

Claiming 4/5 of the skills in d/d as being power is proof it was intended as a power set is simply wrong. The nature of INI means a skill can be used over and over again. There no need to have multiples of the skills apply a condition.

That said AA on dagger applies Poison. #3 applies bleeds. This is as many applications off damaging conditions off the weapon set as p/d has. SB has two as well , one applying bleeds one applying poison. This does not mean conditions were never intended to be used on the SB set or on p/d.

What hurts d/d is not DB applying conditions. It is the number of blocks and AOES that exist in the game and the difficulty gaining stealth with the set as compared to the DP set which also has other more usable utility to deal with that namely the port off 3 with blind, and realtive ease of stealth compared to d/d.

Again nothing to do with DB as being used in a condition build.

The major reason there more people using this OLD build is because of those blocks and , invulnerabilities , and available AOES. It allows a person to protect themself as they apply damage. Easier to be sure , but if a person wants to play a low stealth build and rely on dodges to mitigate and cleanse damage instead than as a thief they are going to die pretty quickly unless they are able to dodge and evade the enemies attacks. The vitality pool of the thief has not increased. The toughness has not increased. The damage of all other professions including thief has gone UP. There now more reveal type skills in the game.

The counter to that is to dodge or evade more of those attacks or fail. That is the reality.

Your admittance that you just hate condition build and would just be rid of them clearly demonstrates your argument not from the perspective of game balance or making sets viable, it “I want everyone to like the same things i do and play the same way I do”. That is not going to happen.

So you are completely for having a build that is highly successful for pressing 2 buttons over and over again?

I don’t have an issue with the idea of a condi thief but it should be something that requires more than 2 buttons. Old p/d condi was better than this because there was still timing involved with it and you had to condi burst at the correct time to successfully take down enemies. I love outside of stealth builds but they need to actually take skill not spamming 2 buttons over and over again. Even with the ini system letting use a skill more than once if we please it was never intended to have a dodge spam build.

Edit: I have put in other balance threads my proposal for buffing p/d to be a more competitive condi set so condi thief could be a thing for those who like the playstyle. It’s not that I just hate all condi, it’s I hate the dodge spam no skill condi build that exists right now.

Jana.6831:

Azukas.1426:

You want to talk WvW? Please don’t b/c you can CnD off countless creatures, walls, and mobs in WvW. Also I love when you face one of the BP HS thieves who rely solely on stealth. It’s the most telegraphed way to stealth in the entire game. If a thief uses Pistol 5 you KNOW wtf they are going to do so you interrupt it with ease. Heck try using scorpion wire when you fight a DP thief. I bet the free CnD BS will win you that fight.

Thieves are not a problem right now and in fact are under powered in the grand scheme of things. Y’all need to stop clamoring for nerfs on your own class when it’s not a problem. Also D/D meta >>>>> D/P meta 1v1. That’s the kitten truth too.

You haven’t been in wvw as a thief for a very long time, right? But I bet you never played D/D anyway so my question is more than rhetorical.
Anyway: Good luck interrupting a D/P thief as a D/D thief – they will be able to stealth at least once, no matter whether or not you equip scorpion wire which won’t work ~50% of the time.

In general: As long as we don’t know what the devs are planning to do with the game it’s pretty hard to make a “plan” for D/D as 30% of D/Ds viability relies on what other classes can do, 30% on the traits which are locked behind merges or were removed altogether, 30% on wonky gameplay.

The plan is D/D is fine and needs nothing.

Azukas.1426:

The plan is D/D is fine and needs nothing.

See, I had/have this one stalker, who came to my server and called me by my real name but not where I knew him from. To impress me he brought his friend who copied “my style”: D/D with one Incinerator. They followed me around for some time, and his friend was lying around more dead than alive. Then I pretty much quit wvw because it was kind of creeping me out to have these two guys around.
I now know who it was and the D/D thief is a thief main, but usually D/P (of course).

In short: If you’d knew wvw you’d know that stealthing off walls has been nerfed = pretty much impossible right now, you’d know that mobs were vastly reduced and you would also realize that a playstyle relying on RNG “I have to be around an enemy tower/mobs that aren’t killed by anyone else” is worse than D/P. But alas, yes, D/D is fine and needs nothing.

Jana.6831:

Azukas.1426:

The plan is D/D is fine and needs nothing.

See, I had/have this one stalker, who came to my server and called me by my real name but not where I knew him from. To impress me he brought his friend who copied “my style”: D/D with one Incinerator. They followed me around for some time, and his friend was lying around more dead than alive. Then I pretty much quit wvw because it was kind of creeping me out to have these two guys around.
I now know who it was and the D/D thief is a thief main, but usually D/P (of course).

In short: If you’d knew wvw you’d know that stealthing off walls has been nerfed = pretty much impossible right now, you’d know that mobs were vastly reduced and you would also realize that a playstyle relying on RNG “I have to be around an enemy tower/mobs that aren’t killed by anyone else” is worse than D/P. But alas, yes, D/D is fine and needs nothing.

you can still stealth off walls anet never fix it lol. it just says in patch note that it was fix.

Taobella.6597:

you can still stealth off walls anet never fix it lol. it just says in patch note that it was fix.

It only works on a few, not all.
I think I’m going to force all of you to play D/D before you’re allowed any further opinion.

ETA: But in the end; what matters is that the devs finally know what they’re doing. I somehow suspect they just leave D/D as it is as it’s too much work to a) play it b) fix it.

My take on d/d. I have played all sets through out my experience on thief wich is now close to 3k hours. D/x is fine I mean the aa is strong and Hs can crit for 7k as well so the dmg out put is I think good. Now, /d is also in a good spot although I think dancing dagger could do with a projectile movement polish up as quite often I am seeing “obstructed” or “out of range”for none of thows reasons, it’s just poor path findings anet has made. CnD should not cost 6 inatuve for what it does and how hard it ‘can be’ to land the skill, I would like to see no power creep on anything by the way but may be add another 2 vul stacks or lowing it to 5 inative would I think be a nice tweak.

This leads to combination of d/d, the #3 skill is flawed and premotes very poor and simply game play that anyone 1 can do with hardly any risk involved. I see a lot of there’s d/d condi spam videos and I just can not see the point of such trashy play style, is this what thief has become? You could probably write an Ai program to play the build for you in ranked pvp lol, back on topic…

I can not think of anything atm but I think that death blossom in today’s date of thief is srsly hurting the d/d weapon set as all other #3 duel skills do a lot of nasty things, I think a total rework on that skill alone is needed but it should fall into the wrong side like condi #3 spam is, I don’t think anyone wants to see a power version of repeating the same button over n over.

Jana.6831:

Taobella.6597:

you can still stealth off walls anet never fix it lol. it just says in patch note that it was fix.

It only works on a few, not all.
I think I’m going to force all of you to play D/D before you’re allowed any further opinion.

ETA: But in the end; what matters is that the devs finally know what they’re doing. I somehow suspect they just leave D/D as it is as it’s too much work to a) play it b) fix it.

it work on all tower walls all supply camp. i am not sure what walls you are referring to?.

Taobella.6597:

it work on all tower walls all supply camp. i am not sure what walls you are referring to?.

Not sure what game you’re playing.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

This leads to combination of d/d, the #3 skill is flawed and premotes very poor and simply game play that anyone 1 can do with hardly any risk involved. I see a lot of there’s d/d condi spam videos and I just can not see the point of such trashy play style, is this what thief has become?

D/P spams their #3 skill, S/D spams their #3 skill – back when I was a P/D thief I spammed my #3 skill. Never did that with D/D though. But D/D condi is only viable because of daredevil, so saying the weaponset is at fault is the wrong direction.

You don’t spam flanking strike at all…May be 3 years ago, it’s used defencevly and kiting. People who spam that are asking for trouble. It’s stupid but for what shadow shot does and how it cost ofc people spam it but that’s only because of the blind, as p/d condi? That was a cheap way to get torment up and I dunno how you spam it when you’re sent back 600/90 range? I forgot now.

Things have changed a lot as we all know, it’s the same thing with vualt spam, people will soon work out how to burst them and they will become trash again and can only kill tunnel vision people and or baddies.

Lotus training just made it stronger, people ran that build way before hot was even thought of.

Jana.6831:

Azukas.1426:

The plan is D/D is fine and needs nothing.

See, I had/have this one stalker, who came to my server and called me by my real name but not where I knew him from. To impress me he brought his friend who copied “my style”: D/D with one Incinerator. They followed me around for some time, and his friend was lying around more dead than alive. Then I pretty much quit wvw because it was kind of creeping me out to have these two guys around.
I now know who it was and the D/D thief is a thief main, but usually D/P (of course).

In short: If you’d knew wvw you’d know that stealthing off walls has been nerfed = pretty much impossible right now, you’d know that mobs were vastly reduced and you would also realize that a playstyle relying on RNG “I have to be around an enemy tower/mobs that aren’t killed by anyone else” is worse than D/P. But alas, yes, D/D is fine and needs nothing.

Good to see you’re in agrrement

Fat Disgrace.4275:

You don’t spam flanking strike at all…May be 3 years ago, it’s used defencevly and kiting. People who spam that are asking for trouble. It’s stupid but for what shadow shot does and how it cost ofc people spam it but that’s only because of the blind, as p/d condi? That was a cheap way to get torment up and I dunno how you spam it when you’re sent back 600/90 range? I forgot now.

Things have changed a lot as we all know, it’s the same thing with vualt spam, people will soon work out how to burst them and they will become trash again and can only kill tunnel vision people and or baddies.

Lotus training just made it stronger, people ran that build way before hot was even thought of.

Then show me one video of a condi D/D thief before HoT or after HoT who isn’t running DrD.
A range of 600 or whatever that skill has is nothing, besides you have to get close to your opponent with P/D and D/D anyway, all other sets have got teleports. (ETA: That setback is the best part of that skill anyway as people usually run after you).
Let me think when my poor D/D thief has been killed by a staff thief.. umm.. never. So you say vault spam is a thing?
Lets just agree to disagree and probably also agree on that no further nerfs should be done to D/D unless we know what nerfs are about to come, as DrD, along with every other elite, has got to be nerfed.

You don’t have to get to your enemy, in fact I let people come to me, that’s how I used p/d same as d/d I dunno why you think it is vice versa, may be that is you who had issues fighting people now. Refusing to adapt and constantly sulking because d/d is trash teir when in fact it’s the as it is before hot it’s just dd line is so much stronger as a defence and offensive.

Why would i of wanted to record condi d/d thives in the first place, let alone pre hot but i can asure you that they did exist. Perhaps it is you who should be posting videos to us and show how hard you have it?

Fat Disgrace.4275:

You don’t have to get to your enemy, in fact I let people come to me, that’s how I used p/d same as d/d I dunno why you think it is vice versa, may be that is you who had issues fighting people now.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

and I dunno how you spam it when you’re sent back 600/90 range? I forgot now.

It was you who brought that point up.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Why would i of wanted to record condi d/d thives in the first place, let alone pre hot but i can asure you that they did exist. Perhaps it is you who should be posting videos to us and show how hard you have it?

You said you saw that many videos of D/D condi spamming 3 that it has got to be nerfed and also claimed that condi D/D has always been around and has got nothing to do with DrD – I’d like some proof to that claim.

ETA: And to the rest: This game has changed, yes, into a very unhealthy uncompetitive boring cookie cutter game. No idea whether or not anet are planning to make the rest of their game viable again but if they plan to do so they will have to nerf every single elite. If they nerf elite x, they will also have to nerf elite y. And with that the “new progressive” DrD will also have to be nerfed as it has got too many evades, especially when paired with acrobatics. DrD does nothing for D/D that’s why I’m not running it. Adapting in my case would be to go D/P and I refuse to do so. I live with the consequences but don’t want people who have got no idea about D/D to ruin that set beyond repair, that’s why I’m arguing with you guys.

Yeah i did bring that point up lol, that’s the whole point of p/d because you know, shadow strike gives torment and they have to chase use, (asuming they are melee) Oh what ever. No, going d/p is the easy way out. I practice s/d with out using #2 so I have the same mobilty as you apart from that now I have 4 skills instead of 5 but I will use #2 to clear a condition.

Now I see why people lose intresting in you, you put words into other people’s mouths wich are completely opisite to what’s originally been said. I never said condi d/d had nothing g to do with hot, I said lotus training made it stronger wich it did. I also said pre hot condi d/d was arpund but i also didnt say it was as common, if anything it was a rare site. I don’t need to prove to you anything because I have seen it with my own eyes.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Yeah i did bring that point up lol, that’s the whole point of p/d because you know, shadow strike gives torment and they have to chase use, (asuming they are melee) Oh what ever. No, going d/p is the easy way out. I practice s/d with out using #2 so I have the same mobilty as you apart from that now I have 4 skills instead of 5 but I will use #2 to clear a condition.

Now I see why people lose intresting in you, you put words into other people’s mouths wich are completely opisite to what’s originally been said. I never said condi d/d had nothing g to do with hot, I said lotus training made it stronger wich it did. I also said pre hot condi d/d was arpund but i also didnt say it was as common, if anything it was a rare site. I don’t need to prove to you anything because I have seen it with my own eyes.

I actually feel as if you’re putting words into my mouth and on the other hand forgot what you said. But it’s good to know that people lose interest in me – for whatever it’s worth. Important point, cabbage! What was your point again?

ETA: A try, although I guess my intelligence is wasted on this:

You said D/D condi has always been around (yes occassionally people tried to make it work) and at first that DrD had nothing to do with it, then that DrD DID make it a thing and also said I’m a stupid kitten for not running DrD as I have to adapt to the changes and DrD is just soooo much better than the rest of the traitlines (I can quote you all of this in case you forgot what you wrote one hour ago). You want skill 3 of D/D to be nerfed because of condi D/D – albeit you already said that DrD is the reason why people are running it/why it works.
So you want to possibly ruin a weaponset because of a traitline which is likely to be nerfed. We could talk about what DrD does to D/P and S/D and think about how that line should be changed to bring it into line with vanilla builds.

Lexander.4579:

staff thief destroys d/p thief any day of the year

Staff thief is like a disabled thief they look so slow and so easy to dodge out of their skills.

Never like staff thief s/d or d/p rest is not my cup

Ario.8964:

babazhook.6805:

Ario.8964:

Azukas.1426:

D/D is already viable and needs no buffs.

D/P is fine and needs no nerfs

Condi d/d is how you play it now. Stop asking for buffs on a weaponset that is such a low skill set

Condi d/d should have never existed to begin with. The set was designed with a power setup in mind as is evident by 4 out of the 5 skills on the set. The issue happened when they created the ability to apply multiple condis on a dodge and refill dodges constantly.

D/D power is some of the highest skill play you ever see on a thief which is why nobody uses it outside of gimmick 1 shots which are still done better and safer with d/p. What I am asking for is buffs to a set that requires significant skill and timing. I’ve posted enough times how much I hate condi evade builds and how if I had it my way I’d gut them without regret or a second thought. D/D power viability is being discussed not condi noob carry builds.

Simply untrue . D/D was built as a hybrid set from day one. DB always applied bleeds on a dodge and in fact applied MORE of said bleeds in its early iteration. The fact it applied bleeds did not inhibit it in any way shape or from from being a power set. The Unicorn build is an old build, and not one that came about because of more dodges.
It coexisted with d/d power.

Claiming 4/5 of the skills in d/d as being power is proof it was intended as a power set is simply wrong. The nature of INI means a skill can be used over and over again. There no need to have multiples of the skills apply a condition.

That said AA on dagger applies Poison. #3 applies bleeds. This is as many applications off damaging conditions off the weapon set as p/d has. SB has two as well , one applying bleeds one applying poison. This does not mean conditions were never intended to be used on the SB set or on p/d.

What hurts d/d is not DB applying conditions. It is the number of blocks and AOES that exist in the game and the difficulty gaining stealth with the set as compared to the DP set which also has other more usable utility to deal with that namely the port off 3 with blind, and realtive ease of stealth compared to d/d.

Again nothing to do with DB as being used in a condition build.

The major reason there more people using this OLD build is because of those blocks and , invulnerabilities , and available AOES. It allows a person to protect themself as they apply damage. Easier to be sure , but if a person wants to play a low stealth build and rely on dodges to mitigate and cleanse damage instead than as a thief they are going to die pretty quickly unless they are able to dodge and evade the enemies attacks. The vitality pool of the thief has not increased. The toughness has not increased. The damage of all other professions including thief has gone UP. There now more reveal type skills in the game.

The counter to that is to dodge or evade more of those attacks or fail. That is the reality.

Your admittance that you just hate condition build and would just be rid of them clearly demonstrates your argument not from the perspective of game balance or making sets viable, it “I want everyone to like the same things i do and play the same way I do”. That is not going to happen.

So you are completely for having a build that is highly successful for pressing 2 buttons over and over again?

I don’t have an issue with the idea of a condi thief but it should be something that requires more than 2 buttons. Old p/d condi was better than this because there was still timing involved with it and you had to condi burst at the correct time to successfully take down enemies. I love outside of stealth builds but they need to actually take skill not spamming 2 buttons over and over again. Even with the ini system letting use a skill more than once if we please it was never intended to have a dodge spam build.

Edit: I have put in other balance threads my proposal for buffing p/d to be a more competitive condi set so condi thief could be a thing for those who like the playstyle. It’s not that I just hate all condi, it’s I hate the dodge spam no skill condi build that exists right now.

You stated that d/d was never intended as a condition set, which is clearer false. If you are going to make an argument for changing a weaponsets attributes you can not base it on false premises.

Now to that “using only two buttons over and over again”. Yes it rather one dimensional gameplay but that is the a direct consequence of INI in the game over the other cooldown skills and of the thief having to rely on dodges and or stealth over blocks and other means in order to survive. The fact is that the db thief uses skills 5 through 10 as often as any other build and when it comes to 1-5 when compared to say s/d you are talking one or two less buttons used.

If a #4 offered more to a condition build did you ever think it might be used more?

The fact is every second week there someone starting another topic about “spam” used in a build , be it stealth spam, dodge spam blind spam or headshot spam. This is not the result of deathblossom whatsoever. It is because that given skill is the best at applying damage at a given time for a specific build.

As others have stated , outside of d/p , which by the way does not take a lot more skill then a person using db in a build, all thief builds rely on using fewer of the buttons being pressed and pressing fewer buttons does not mean a person less skilful.

d/d DB condition build has its own inherent limitations. There no need to remove it as a skill just because you personaly do not like a skill being spammed anymore then blinding powder has to be removed in order to end “blind spam” .

You spoke of giving more utility to p/d as a condition build. This again shows an inherent bias towards conditions.

People want a melee set for conditions and do not want to be funneled in to one weapon set if the want a condition build. You are just removing diversity when you do that.

Recent changes were made to p/p in that might was added to unload. Recent changes were made to lead attacks in that the damage component leads to more damage across all given skills in a weaponset. SOME people use this as a reason to just spam unload but that does not mean there was a problem with those additions or changes. I have been playing with p/p of late in a hybrid build and the fact is the build much more effective when you do NOT just spam unload. That is because that extra might in combination with lead attacks . makes those other less used in the set more usable. It also makes venoms and traits like PI much more usable.

For conditions only the AA applies condition damage on the set yet p/p can be used very effectively to deliver conditions. This does not translate to “let us remove bleed from the AA as PP obviously a power set”.

What you promote is in fact less diversity and not more. It is locking a build type into fewer weaponsets. That d/d power is harder to play then it was has nothing to do with the fact people use db to apply conditions. You suggest robbing Peter to pay Paul.

babazhook.6805:

Ario.8964:

babazhook.6805:

Ario.8964:

Azukas.1426:

D/D is already viable and needs no buffs.

D/P is fine and needs no nerfs

Condi d/d is how you play it now. Stop asking for buffs on a weaponset that is such a low skill set

Condi d/d should have never existed to begin with. The set was designed with a power setup in mind as is evident by 4 out of the 5 skills on the set. The issue happened when they created the ability to apply multiple condis on a dodge and refill dodges constantly.

D/D power is some of the highest skill play you ever see on a thief which is why nobody uses it outside of gimmick 1 shots which are still done better and safer with d/p. What I am asking for is buffs to a set that requires significant skill and timing. I’ve posted enough times how much I hate condi evade builds and how if I had it my way I’d gut them without regret or a second thought. D/D power viability is being discussed not condi noob carry builds.

Simply untrue . D/D was built as a hybrid set from day one. DB always applied bleeds on a dodge and in fact applied MORE of said bleeds in its early iteration. The fact it applied bleeds did not inhibit it in any way shape or from from being a power set. The Unicorn build is an old build, and not one that came about because of more dodges.
It coexisted with d/d power.

Claiming 4/5 of the skills in d/d as being power is proof it was intended as a power set is simply wrong. The nature of INI means a skill can be used over and over again. There no need to have multiples of the skills apply a condition.

That said AA on dagger applies Poison. #3 applies bleeds. This is as many applications off damaging conditions off the weapon set as p/d has. SB has two as well , one applying bleeds one applying poison. This does not mean conditions were never intended to be used on the SB set or on p/d.

What hurts d/d is not DB applying conditions. It is the number of blocks and AOES that exist in the game and the difficulty gaining stealth with the set as compared to the DP set which also has other more usable utility to deal with that namely the port off 3 with blind, and realtive ease of stealth compared to d/d.

Again nothing to do with DB as being used in a condition build.

The major reason there more people using this OLD build is because of those blocks and , invulnerabilities , and available AOES. It allows a person to protect themself as they apply damage. Easier to be sure , but if a person wants to play a low stealth build and rely on dodges to mitigate and cleanse damage instead than as a thief they are going to die pretty quickly unless they are able to dodge and evade the enemies attacks. The vitality pool of the thief has not increased. The toughness has not increased. The damage of all other professions including thief has gone UP. There now more reveal type skills in the game.

The counter to that is to dodge or evade more of those attacks or fail. That is the reality.

Your admittance that you just hate condition build and would just be rid of them clearly demonstrates your argument not from the perspective of game balance or making sets viable, it “I want everyone to like the same things i do and play the same way I do”. That is not going to happen.

So you are completely for having a build that is highly successful for pressing 2 buttons over and over again?

I don’t have an issue with the idea of a condi thief but it should be something that requires more than 2 buttons. Old p/d condi was better than this because there was still timing involved with it and you had to condi burst at the correct time to successfully take down enemies. I love outside of stealth builds but they need to actually take skill not spamming 2 buttons over and over again. Even with the ini system letting use a skill more than once if we please it was never intended to have a dodge spam build.

Edit: I have put in other balance threads my proposal for buffing p/d to be a more competitive condi set so condi thief could be a thing for those who like the playstyle. It’s not that I just hate all condi, it’s I hate the dodge spam no skill condi build that exists right now.

You stated that d/d was never intended as a condition set, which is clearer false. If you are going to make an argument for changing a weaponsets attributes you can not base it on false premises.

Now to that “using only two buttons over and over again”. Yes it rather one dimensional gameplay but that is the a direct consequence of INI in the game over the other cooldown skills and of the thief having to rely on dodges and or stealth over blocks and other means in order to survive. The fact is that the db thief uses skills 5 through 10 as often as any other build and when it comes to 1-5 when compared to say s/d you are talking one or two less buttons used.

If a #4 offered more to a condition build did you ever think it might be used more?

The fact is every second week there someone starting another topic about “spam” used in a build , be it stealth spam, dodge spam blind spam or headshot spam. This is not the result of deathblossom whatsoever. It is because that given skill is the best at applying damage at a given time for a specific build.

As others have stated , outside of d/p , which by the way does not take a lot more skill then a person using db in a build, all thief builds rely on using fewer of the buttons being pressed and pressing fewer buttons does not mean a person less skillful.

d/d DB condition build has its own inherent limitations. There no need to remove it as a skill just because you personally do not like a skill being spammed anymore then blinding powder has to be removed in order to end “blind spam” .

You spoke of giving more utility to p/d as a condition build. This again shows an inherent bias towards conditions.

People want a melee set for conditions and do not want to be funneled in to one weapon set if the want a condition build. You are just removing diversity when you do that.

Recent changes were made to p/p in that might was added to unload. Recent changes were made to lead attacks in that the damage component leads to more damage across all given skills in a weaponset. SOME people use this as a reason to just spam unload but that does not mean there was a problem with those additions or changes. I have been playing with p/p of late in a hybrid build and the fact is the build much more effective when you do NOT just spam unload. That is because that extra might in combination with lead attacks . makes those other less used in the set more usable. It also makes venoms and traits like PI much more usable.

For conditions only the AA applies condition damage on the set yet p/p can be used very effectively to deliver conditions. This does not translate to “let us remove bleed from the AA as PP obviously a power set”.

What you promote is in fact less diversity and not more. It is locking a build type into fewer weaponsets. That d/d power is harder to play then it was has nothing to do with the fact people use db to apply conditions. You suggest robbing Peter to pay Paul.

If you’re so determined to keep d/d condi in game then spread the conditions around on the set. D/D would be a cool hybrid made set but you can’t stack all the conditions on 1 skill AND give that skill an evade. Imo, huge damage should never be tied to an evade which is why vault, bound, lotus, and db all need to be looked at.

Using a skill more than once as granted by the ini system is different than spam 3 and dodge. What should happen with initiative usage is skills should be used according to the situation and should be able to be used multiple times if the situation demands it. What should not happen is builds that are made for the sole purpose of spamming a single skill and a dodge being allowed to be effective outside of small situations where you would want to rotate between weapon evades and dodges to survive for a bit.

How does wanting to make p/d a more competitive condi set in the game show a bias against condi? That makes no sense.

When I suggested your bias against conditions I used the fact you wanted to remove D/D as a condition set entirely and funnel all condition builds into p/d. Power builds already have the advantage in virtually every other weaponset, they do not need another exclusive to them.

Again this type of game design leads to less diverse builds.

D/D can be reworked to make it more favorable to power when compared to staff and to d/p and to make it so that a condition build using the set is not stuck to one or two skills.

Further to that in retuning /d/d as a weaponset I do not want to see it just become a copy of d/p. In other words adding a port (so it like d/p three) adding an interrupt (so it like d/p headshot) and adding a blind (so it becomes like d/p Black powder) is not good game design . It should play differently.

So as example and while I acknoweldge this might not work in game terms this an idea of what could be done.

1>The AA chain. It fine for the power set but the one poison stack with endurance gain in the chain not worth it for most condition builds. Suggestion on Lotus strike add a stack of poison. Lower duration of the two stacks to 5 seconds. This will reward the Condition builds more for using the AA chain. Coupled with potent poison this can add nice poison damage to the condition user while at the same time increasing their risk as they do so.

2>Heartseeker. leave as is. There no fundamental reason every skill must have a condition component for a condition build. This will favor power builds.

3>Deathblossom. Leave as is. There no reason to change it. Power d/d builds can still use the evade to avoid damage. An evade that can be used when one out of dodges or can not stealth is useful to any build including power.

4>Dancing dagger. This a suggestion. Add to the skill “when an enemy struck gain two seconds of quickness”. This will help both a Condition and Power build. It will also help s/d and p/d in comparitive terms. A condition build can followup with an AA chain to apply more poison. A power build will get attacks off quicker then would a d/p build using that AA. The s/d AA chain will run quicker.

5>Cloak and Dagger. Lower initiative cost by one to 5. This is hard to land in the current verion of the game and it should not be this expensive in INI terms. Increase vulnerability stacks to 5.

Quickness on the #4 skill can also help with the CND making it faster. Lower INI costs and higher vulnerability stacks will help make the d/d backstab superior to that of d/p.
Lower INI and more vuln stacks can also help a condition build and see it more used and given Condition builds tend to have added condition durations so there some tactical advantage to using this in a d/d condition build.

Now this may or may not work but the point is these suggested changes try and address the issues with d/d AND x/d without just copying another sets abilities or limiting the build to power or condition only.

Others might well come up with ideas that would work better, I am not stuck on these but I want the set to play differently and have its own advantages over other sets.

When I came to GW2 my first toon was a thief. I tend to favor Thieves in all the games I join and d/d was the first weaponset I tried simply because I liked the theme. The theme I envisioned on that first try was not that hit from stealth for uber damage so prevalenet in so many of the same type games (although I have nothing against such a build) but one of a thief that dodged and rolled from attacks as he bled and poisoned his opponent to death with his daggers.

babazhook.6805:

When I suggested your bias against conditions I used the fact you wanted to remove D/D as a condition set entirely and funnel all condition builds into p/d. Power builds already have the advantage in virtually every other weaponset, they do not need another exclusive to them.

Again this type of game design leads to less diverse builds.

D/D can be reworked to make it more favorable to power when compared to staff and to d/p and to make it so that a condition build using the set is not stuck to one or two skills.

Further to that in retuning /d/d as a weaponset I do not want to see it just become a copy of d/p. In other words adding a port (so it like d/p three) adding an interrupt (so it like d/p headshot) and adding a blind (so it becomes like d/p Black powder) is not good game design . It should play differently.

So as example and while I acknoweldge this might not work in game terms this an idea of what could be done.

1>The AA chain. It fine for the power set but the one poison stack with endurance gain in the chain not worth it for most condition builds. Suggestion on Lotus strike add a stack of poison. Lower duration of the two stacks to 5 seconds. This will reward the Condition builds more for using the AA chain. Coupled with potent poison this can add nice poison damage to the condition user while at the same time increasing their risk as they do so.

2>Heartseeker. leave as is. There no fundamental reason every skill must have a condition component for a condition build. This will favor power builds.

3>Deathblossom. Leave as is. There no reason to change it. Power d/d builds can still use the evade to avoid damage. An evade that can be used when one out of dodges or can not stealth is useful to any build including power.

4>Dancing dagger. This a suggestion. Add to the skill “when an enemy struck gain two seconds of quickness”. This will help both a Condition and Power build. It will also help s/d and p/d in comparitive terms. A condition build can followup with an AA chain to apply more bleeds. A power build will get attacks off quicker then would a d/p build using that AA. The s/d AA chain will run quicker.

5>Cloak and Dagger. Lower initiative cost by one to 5. This is hard to land in the current verion of the game and it should not be this expensive in INI terms. Increase vulnerability stacks to 5.

Quickness on the #4 skill can also help with the CND making it faster. Lower INI costs and higher vulnerability stacks will help make the d/d backstab superior to that of d/p.
Lower INI and more vuln stacks can also help a condition build and see it more used and given Condition builds tend to have added condition durations so there some tactical advantage to using this in a d/d condition build.

Now this may or may not work but the point is these suggested changes try and address the issues with d/d AND x/d without just copying another sets abilities or limiting the build to power or condition only.

Others might well come up with ideas that would work better, I am not stuck on these but I want the set to play differently and have its own advantages over other sets.

When I came to GW2 my first toon was a thief. I tend to favor Thieves in all the games I join and d/d was the first weaponset I tried simply because I liked the theme. The theme I envisioned on that first try was not that hit from stealth for uber damage so prevalenet in so many of the same type games (although I have nothing against such a build) but one of a thief that dodged and rolled from attacks as he bled and poisoned his opponent to death with his daggers.

Ok the statement makes sense now haha.

I agree it needs to be different from d/p but Imo there needs to be an aegis buff or a blind put onto CnD so that you don’t get hit when landing the CnD. Now I don’t believe ports are needed at all and I don’t think interrupts are needed but some form of a getaway defense would be great for the set.

1) I think that could be nice. Allowing aa to benefit condi and power builds is a great first step to building a balanced set.

3) Personally I’d like to see deathblossom have a small duration decrease on bleeds so they don’t stack as high as they can currently but that may be a skewed view of the set given my personal feelings about it. On demand evade is amazing and imo the damage atm is fine as is.

4) This would have to be monitored closely to make sure we don’t have too much quickness present but it sounds like a cool idea.

5) That could be nice combined with either aegis or blind on landing the CnD to make the skill have a reasonable cost given how difficult it can be to land.