Guild Wars 2

So’s it just me, or does the Pistol Whip build kill faster than the standard dagger/dagger build which was designed to kill fast in the first place?

I’m keeping my build largely the same as what Arenanet gave to me when I entered SPVP. Recently I played around with Pistol Whip and wow…it seems like this build, meant to be more tactical, is actually assassinating faster than dual daggers. Assassination has always been the “theme” of dual daggers.

Maybe I’m just doing d/d wrong?

Depends.

Have you been putting points into your first trait path for physical damage? Dual daggers kill by causing massive bleeding to the enemy which is condition damage.

When I use dual daggers I use a mix of power/precision with a slight side helping of Condition Damage. I use Death Blossom here and there but I don’t spam it. I use Cloak and Dagger with an Assassin’s Signet enhanced Backstab.

Shooopa.5632:

Depends.

Have you been putting points into your first trait path for physical damage? Dual daggers kill by causing massive bleeding to the enemy which is condition damage.

how so? the only skill that relies on condition damage is death blossom, heart seeker and backstab (and cnd) are all power reliant.

its a problem i think dagger needs some rework to identify itself. be condition or power based, not have skills that rely on both, it just means youll have skills that arent worth using.

In my opinion Pistol Whip build has the best burst of the Thief Builds.

Wolfe.3097:

Shooopa.5632:

Depends.

Have you been putting points into your first trait path for physical damage? Dual daggers kill by causing massive bleeding to the enemy which is condition damage.

how so? the only skill that relies on condition damage is death blossom, heart seeker and backstab (and cnd) are all power reliant.

its a problem i think dagger needs some rework to identify itself. be condition or power based, not have skills that rely on both, it just means youll have skills that arent worth using.

No thanks, Dagger/Dagger is fine. The only ability that needs rework is C&D, not Leaping Death Blossom!

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

Wolfe.3097:

Shooopa.5632:

Depends.

Have you been putting points into your first trait path for physical damage? Dual daggers kill by causing massive bleeding to the enemy which is condition damage.

how so? the only skill that relies on condition damage is death blossom, heart seeker and backstab (and cnd) are all power reliant.

its a problem i think dagger needs some rework to identify itself. be condition or power based, not have skills that rely on both, it just means youll have skills that arent worth using.

No thanks, Dagger/Dagger is fine. The only ability that needs rework is C&D, not Leaping Death Blossom!

disagree, i love C&D! if anything needs changing on it, decrease the initiative cost.

i understand, your a condition D/D deathblossom specced thief and you enjoy it. i have a set for that too, i enjoy it also, but it doesnt change the fact that D/D right now is split, and weaker for it. your either power/crit and ignore death blossom outside of a ditch effort dodge, or your condition focused and your heartseeker/CnD/backstab hit for crap.

it needs fixed, just cuz your biased one way doesnt mean it doesnt need fixing

I think pistol whip is a defining thief maneuver. It’s just fun to use. I like it in balanced power, precision, healing and vitality resilience/survival build

Wolfe.3097:

how so? the only skill that relies on condition damage is death blossom, heart seeker and backstab (and cnd) are all power reliant.

its a problem i think dagger needs some rework to identify itself. be condition or power based, not have skills that rely on both, it just means youll have skills that arent worth using.

Death blossom is how you’re supposed to be using dual daggers mostly. It not only inflicts massive bleeding but puts you behind your enemy so they can’t counterattack right away. Then when they loose enough HP you can use heartseeker to finish the job or just let them chase you until they bleed to death.

Shooopa.5632:

Wolfe.3097:

how so? the only skill that relies on condition damage is death blossom, heart seeker and backstab (and cnd) are all power reliant.

its a problem i think dagger needs some rework to identify itself. be condition or power based, not have skills that rely on both, it just means youll have skills that arent worth using.

Death blossom is how you’re supposed to be using dual daggers mostly. It not only inflicts massive bleeding but puts you behind your enemy so they can’t counterattack right away. Then when they loose enough HP you can use heartseeker to finish the job or just let them chase you until they bleed to death.

and I think stealth and backstab is how your supposed to use dual daggers, beacuse you cant backstab without a dagger in mainhand, and you cant CnD without dagger in offhand.

not too mention in order to make a build that can use death blossom more then maybe 2-3 times you need a highly specialized spec with very specific traits/skills.

its a fun spec to be sure, i enjoy it when i play it. but dual daggers is still split between power/crit and condition because of death blossom. you spec one the other is crap.

Wolfe.3097:

and I think stealth and backstab is how your supposed to use dual daggers, beacuse you cant backstab without a dagger in mainhand, and you cant CnD without dagger in offhand.

not too mention in order to make a build that can use death blossom more then maybe 2-3 times you need a highly specialized spec with very specific traits/skills.

its a fun spec to be sure, i enjoy it when i play it. but dual daggers is still split between power/crit and condition because of death blossom. you spec one the other is crap.

You can backstab with pistol/dagger though – black powder shot followed by heartseeker stealths you.

Shooopa.5632:

Wolfe.3097:

and I think stealth and backstab is how your supposed to use dual daggers, beacuse you cant backstab without a dagger in mainhand, and you cant CnD without dagger in offhand.

not too mention in order to make a build that can use death blossom more then maybe 2-3 times you need a highly specialized spec with very specific traits/skills.

its a fun spec to be sure, i enjoy it when i play it. but dual daggers is still split between power/crit and condition because of death blossom. you spec one the other is crap.

You can backstab with pistol/dagger though – black powder shot followed by heartseeker stealths you.

which costs considerably more and takes more time then CnD

PW – Roots you in place for the duration of its channel. and outside of using it with haste allows room for your target to evade it. It deals considerable dmg, but you can just as easily die using the ability as your target. PW requires you to set up an immobilize or slow to ensure it deals max dmg. Though having a ranged interupt and stealth via combo/aoe blind ups its utility.

Daggers allow for more flow and flexibility, and DeathBlossm is great even if your not a condition build. DoT’s are still dmg, just because its 1900 and not 3500 doesnt mean you should just spam HS. and the best thing about Dag OH is that you get a Snare and a means to enter stealth, beit for the Backstab or to finish them off in stealth.

Classic.4072:

Daggers allow for more flow and flexibility, and DeathBlossm is great even if your not a condition build. DoT’s are still dmg, just because its 1900 and not 3500 doesnt mean you should just spam HS. and the best thing about Dag OH is that you get a Snare and a means to enter stealth, beit for the Backstab or to finish them off in stealth.

honestly i disagree, the ONLY good reason to use DB as a non condition spec is for the evasion (when your out of dodges)

it costs 5 initiative, even in a backstab build thats not initiative intensive that is a lot to blow on a skill.

dmg is dmg is misleading at best. even with the HS nerf id rather CnD or HS then DB, more damage per cost of initiative, better utility.

basically when your power specced, DB is only used for evasion, otherwise every single other skill on your bar has priority over it.

Wolfe.3097:

Classic.4072:

Daggers allow for more flow and flexibility, and DeathBlossm is great even if your not a condition build. DoT’s are still dmg, just because its 1900 and not 3500 doesnt mean you should just spam HS. and the best thing about Dag OH is that you get a Snare and a means to enter stealth, beit for the Backstab or to finish them off in stealth.

honestly i disagree, the ONLY good reason to use DB as a non condition spec is for the evasion (when your out of dodges)

it costs 5 initiative, even in a backstab build thats not initiative intensive that is a lot to blow on a skill.

dmg is dmg is misleading at best. even with the HS nerf id rather CnD or HS then DB, more damage per cost of initiative, better utility.

basically when your power specced, DB is only used for evasion, otherwise every single other skill on your bar has priority over it.

I went and I tested out S/P and D/D with the same power/perc/crit build (no condition damage)

Up front: S/P takes the lead by doing a bust damage but then it slows down and you begin getting hit more since the skill leaves you wide open. D/D allows you to evade while stacking bleed.

In the end: Both killed in about the same exact time, D/D just takes longer during the first 50% of the mobs life while you stack up the bleeds, then it drains them down which caught up to S/P shortly after.

I do have to disagree that the only reason to run DB is if you have condition damage. Does it add to it? Well sure! But even if you don’t spec condition damage, doesn’t make the bleed useless.

(Tested on PvE mobs)
I am also spec’d 30 DA, 30 CS, 10 Trickery.

But yes, having condition damage greatly improves your stacks

2.5 + (0.5 * Level) + (0.05 * Condition Damage)= per stack per second is bleed so
0 condition damage: 43 (42.5 rounded up) per stack/per second
500 condition damage: 68 (67.5 rounded up) per stack/per second

5 stacks in 5 seconds:
0 condition: 1075
500 condition: 1700

If you do not using DB at all because you think the bleed is nothing with no condition, you’re missing out on 1075 extra damage while you’re doing direct damage, but you are missing out more without the condition damage increase.

perhaps we are talking different avenues, im talking mainly a pvp perspective, pve i dont care much whats viable and whats not. doesnt seem as important.

with my spec the only initiative support i have is my spells that put me in stealth refund 2 initiative, essentially making CnD cost me 4 instead of 6.

my build requires the abuse of stealth to both blind my foes and get in backstabs.

explain to me a time it would be better for me to DB (other then the evasion when im out of dodges) rather then CnD (for my backstabs and blinds) or HS (for closing the gap to get my cnd off)

maybe if DB costed 3, MAYBE if it costed 4, but 5 is too much for too little. the fact that it has no additional utility other then damage (which im already putting my initiative to better use) and evade (which i have 3 of, and more often then not im too low on initiative for DB by the time im out of endurance with my spec)

i dont want to look at just damage, but damage per point of initiative

edit: saw you updated your post

1075 for 5 stacks…wait…db applies 3 stacks, how are you getting 5?, either way, im not “missing” out on 1075 damage, im using that initiative to get more damage then 1075 thats for sure.

in pvp at least, I don’t think any thief build can rival how fast a properly built backstab focused thief can kill a single target.

sword/pistol is lethal for sure.. but it has downsides, just like every other build.

Ruggy.7819:

in pvp at least, I don’t think any thief build can rival how fast a properly built backstab focused thief can kill a single target.

sword/pistol is lethal for sure.. but it has downsides, just like every other build.

S/P is all well in good, tho isnt the focus of my debate, its the application of DB in non condition based builds.

my build is more for sticking to the target and surviving while doing respectable damage then glass cannoning somine in .5 seconds then dying cuz you have no hp, toughness or mobility.