Guild Wars 2

Honestly, This self revealed bullkitten is absolute cancer. I know others have said it before. But how the kitten can one think as a pvp desginer/balance team/progammer and still not adress this reveale issue. On top of this u even dare to not get rid of the kitten area marker when using shadow refuge? And then there is the revealed. Stealth with all this AOE pulsing CC is already kittening hard to pull off. Blinding power and shadow refuge already have a kittening long cd. What I absolute hate is that when I’m so close to actually getting away or finishing off, my gokitten stealth isn’t working.

It’s already kittening ridiculous how easy shadow refuge is countered. Not only by new gameplay mechanics. But just general knowledge by know. It’s like the kittening sharigan in naruto, Do not kittening stare an Uchiha in the kittening eyes and keep an eye out on your chakra. But u don’t kittening see masashi kishimoto give all the kittening uchiha’s some ridiculous weakness like, for every illulsion used. U cannot use sharigan or any of it’s related abilitiy for half an hour. Not even the ability to predict movements. None of this kitten.

Never even took a single look at stealth with thiefs, never, But are perfectly contend with this bullkitten powercreep and bunkering. To think that classes can be perfect hybrids now, A thief has to give up so much kitten to actuall compare damage wise. And u couldn’t even get rid of self revealed.

This so kittened, to think that I was kittened over by downstate reaper. Cause my gokitten stealth wouldn’t work when i needed it. Man I absolutely depise who ever came up with these ’’thief changes. I might not know u personally, But I hate you random A-net desginer/progammer/balance team. I absolutely despise you.

end rant.

I have no qualm with the revealed debuff, and having played early release before it was implemented, completely agree with its implementation. Stealth was simply way too strong prior.

Frankly, I actually prefer having stealth, particularly long-lasting effects, have counterplay. I would distinctly argue that the stealth that other classes are getting, and the revealing capabilities of other classes compounded on the notion that stealth should be the be-all-end-all defense of the thief is what’s really hurting the class balance-wise when both encountering and comparing it to others. Stealth can be quickly dismissed with strong counterplay and high skill when playing against a thief. A scrapper or chronomancer, however, have much better mechanisms to prevent such countering, and arguably stronger in-combat stealth abilities.

I love the thief, but exploitative mechanics game-wide, including what the thief is able to do such as D/D condi evasion spam or D/P ghost, are overly-problematic and hurting the integrity of the game in general.

DeceiverX.8361:

I have no qualm with the revealed debuff, and having played early release before it was implemented, completely agree with its implementation. Stealth was simply way too strong prior.

Frankly, I actually prefer having stealth, particularly long-lasting effects, have counterplay. I would distinctly argue that the stealth that other classes are getting, and the revealing capabilities of other classes compounded on the notion that stealth should be the be-all-end-all defense of the thief is what’s really hurting the class balance-wise when both encountering and comparing it to others. Stealth can be quickly dismissed with strong counterplay and high skill when playing against a thief. A scrapper or chronomancer, however, have much better mechanisms to prevent such countering, and arguably stronger in-combat stealth abilities.

I love the thief, but exploitative mechanics game-wide, including what the thief is able to do such as D/D condi evasion spam or D/P ghost, are overly-problematic and hurting the integrity of the game in general.

‘’Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit. ’’

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thief

And why shouldn’t stealth be the all end defence? It’s advocated as bieng thier specialty. speedphantoms and hard to hit in general. For that reason thier sustain is absolute crap. Bassically they are the fast guy who take lots of damage when u hit them. U act as if thief relying on stealth is a bad thing.

U act as if self revealed woudl al of a sudden make the thief devoid of counterplay even tough just so listed all the revealed abilities and admitting thier overal class weakness. How in the world can u be contend with thief when. There is so much ways to counter it already? Like seriously at this point in time there is so many launches and knock backs that even shadow refuge isn’t a surefire way.

And seriously D/D condi spam is an exploit? it uses 4 iniative for crying out loud and eve then it’s not even that impressive damage wise. in 10 secs it does 3 k damage, U stack 12 stacks assuming u hit them. And then u do it 4 times maximally and then only then u can do 1.2 k condi damage per second roughly which rarely happens thanx to blinds blocks and immunities.

Dagger pistol hits average now. there is atm noting exploitable about thiefs.What do you expect a thief to do? Be a kittening Chaith? the fact that u even have a problem with dagger/dagger evasion in a meta with so much aoe skill. Even channeled skills which lock u down on stealth really makes me think u haven’t played this game for as long as u claim.

there is nothing wrong with an class described for deception and trickery bieng reliable on stealth for defensive measures.

“Nurf stealth” nab whine is everywhere. I play a lot of HotS and “Nurf Nova” whinethreads are popping there every day. But Blizz haves willpower to ignore them. Anet doesnt. Too much kitten.

Revealed is fine how it is. Just learn to use it well.

Thief is in bad spot not because of self-revealed
Because of …
Some weapons are bad
Some utilities are buggy, long cooldown and not effective
Some of our traits are stupidly designed (ex, self revealed should be in shadow arts)
Need to rely on trickery to have 15 initiative
We are the only class that has no access to burning while our poison mech suck
We are the only class that has no defesive boons mech except for vigor that anet nerf it
I can list the flaw of thief design for day

Self Revealed is okay for me than what i have listed

Ohoni.6057:

Revealed is fine how it is. Just learn to use it well.

Oh no, I’m not some thief noob that knows absolutely nothing about the class. I can win fights, Infact I’m doing pretty well with thief at stronghold with certain builds. But at conquest. It’s almost impossible to actually be viable. only a handfew of experienced thiefs can play thief. they pretty much have to play thier build completely flawless. And that is completel bullkitten. But trying to contribute in a fight, and yes i know thiefs aren’t meant to constantly go mid but focus on decaping, picking out people on low health(try doing that against classes who get thier healt back up in a second or are so ridiculously powerfull in downstate u cannot finish them, without either dying or almost losing all of your health yourself.).. I just find that revealed on top of having crappy damage for the risk you are putting yourself in. U should atleast have a viable defence here.

This entire revealed bullkitten feels like a slap in the face. the feeling u get when u actually need 1 or 2 hits to beat scrapper, dragonhunters, chronomancers. And u kittening lose the fight cause u slipped once by simply not paying attention to revealed? And if you disenage, those kitteners get thier health back up in seconds. And you gotta try again.

Nowadays u need to be flawless to utilize thief. I do genuinely respect those thiefs that can actually pull this off.

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

DeceiverX.8361:

I have no qualm with the revealed debuff, and having played early release before it was implemented, completely agree with its implementation. Stealth was simply way too strong prior.

Frankly, I actually prefer having stealth, particularly long-lasting effects, have counterplay. I would distinctly argue that the stealth that other classes are getting, and the revealing capabilities of other classes compounded on the notion that stealth should be the be-all-end-all defense of the thief is what’s really hurting the class balance-wise when both encountering and comparing it to others. Stealth can be quickly dismissed with strong counterplay and high skill when playing against a thief. A scrapper or chronomancer, however, have much better mechanisms to prevent such countering, and arguably stronger in-combat stealth abilities.

I love the thief, but exploitative mechanics game-wide, including what the thief is able to do such as D/D condi evasion spam or D/P ghost, are overly-problematic and hurting the integrity of the game in general.

’’Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit. ’ "

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thief

And why shouldn’t stealth be the all end defence? It’s advocated as bieng thier specialty. speedphantoms and hard to hit in general. For that reason thier sustain is absolute crap. Bassically they are the fast guy who take lots of damage when u hit them. U act as if thief relying on stealth is a bad thing.

U act as if self revealed woudl al of a sudden make the thief devoid of counterplay even tough just so listed all the revealed abilities and admitting thier overal class weakness. How in the world can u be contend with thief when. There is so much ways to counter it already? Like seriously at this point in time there is so many launches and knock backs that even shadow refuge isn’t a surefire way.

And seriously D/D condi spam is an exploit? it uses 4 iniative for crying out loud and eve then it’s not even that impressive damage wise. in 10 secs it does 3 k damage, U stack 12 stacks assuming u hit them. And then u do it 4 times maximally and then only then u can do 1.2 k condi damage per second roughly which rarely happens thanx to blinds blocks and immunities.

Dagger pistol hits average now. there is atm noting exploitable about thiefs.What do you expect a thief to do? Be a kittening Chaith? the fact that u even have a problem with dagger/dagger evasion in a meta with so much aoe skill. Even channeled skills which lock u down on stealth really makes me think u haven’t played this game for as long as u claim.

there is nothing wrong with an class described for deception and trickery bieng reliable on stealth for defensive measures.

See the highlighted text. I see no such dependency on the description that stealth is the only defense the class should have.

Almost everything in your post indicates you actually have a lot to learn about the class. There wasn’t revealed in the game early on. It was really, really, really overpowered. With more classes getting stealth access, imagine a scrapper or mesmer bursting without being revealed. It’s necessary as a mechanic. What isn’t necessary is the number and ease of access of skills and traits that inflict Revealed without a cost; Sic ‘Em is a fine example of a skill which inflicts Revealed in a reasonable manner. Revenant, DH, and Scrapper, though, shouldn’t have so many options to do so that really don’t require much risk. Fair skills like Sic ‘Em which require a target wouldn’t work at all, because a thief that didn’t get revealed would chain stealth forever while performing attacks. This is how it used to be, and this was dumb. Especially so on other classes.

AOE’s/AOE CC effects do punish the thief. And that’s an entirely different problem which not being revealed wouldn’t help. I kill a lot of thieves while they’re in stealth. I die a lot while I’m in stealth. Not getting revealed after an attack won’t do anything in either the current meta or against competent players.

And Shadow Refuge shouldn’t be a “surefire way.” It’s meant as a long-duration stealth, and it’s meant to be countered in multiple ways. Other classes have overpowered stealth abilities. I’m saying that outright. It doesn’t justify even more power creep in the game, because every profession has been screaming “We’re underpowered!”, and has been buffed, and most majorly overpowered skills and abilities causing the core problems in the game’s balance have been unaddressed or buffed as a consequence. More buffs aren’t the answer. We’ve already hit the point where things are so power-creeped and have spiraled so out of control the PvP formats are being scoffed at by the professionals who play them.

D/D condi evasion doesn’t get countered by AOE’s. There is no delay or aftercast on the evades anymore. Spamming 3 is frankly just the same as being invuln assuming you don’t put delay in your input. D/P is still better-used in competitive games for its engage speed and utility for +1’s. Otherwise, D/D condi spam is better at holding points, better at team fights, and just as good at moving around the map. I’d also mention that conditions still tick through blinds and blocks, and the ticks can be made much more substantial if you actually say, build for the condition damage and use Daredevil evades properly. I’d also like to mention you can do it five times consecutively due to natural initiative regeneration occurring mid-animation, and a steal will reset an additional three. A build using Acrobatics will regenerate an additional four initiative over this duration. Paired with vigor, the dodges from DD, and DD’s endurance recovery, you can maintain almost permanent evasion uptime while dealing damage.

Shadow Shot continues to be one of the best skills in the game despite the thief’s relative poor performance as a class. It offers the fourth-highest damage on the core thief’s kit, first being unload, second being backstab, Third being larcenous Strike, it costs less initiative, is unblockable (counters blocks which are now a huge part of the game), blinds, and teleports. D/P is the most versatile set the thief has in regards to its utility per damage, so it shouldn’t offer peak damage such as say, D/D. It also already does more.

The entirety of what makes the thief competitive is effectively defined as taking advantages of exploiting a facet of the game or class’ mechanics. Shortbow 5 on initiative lets the thief be the most mobile profession in the game. If they nerf IArrow even slightly, thief as profession takes a huge blow here. If they nerf DD dodges, the profession no longer has necessary staying power. If they nerf unload spam, P/P as a weapon loses all use. The thief right now is getting by on gimmicky exploitation alone and not through good design or balance decisions, pertaining to not just the thief but the entire game’s classes.

Combat has been largely trivialized with the specializations and arbitrary buffs and lack of essential reworks necessary for the class and game to move on. Removing the Revealed effect will do nothing to help the thief except inspire more exploitative builds
with the end result causing the thief to gain nothing in the process in terms of use or viability.

All I’m getting out of your posts is you’re dying when you become revealed and not because of people playing well to counter stealth. If people aren’t playing well to counter stealth and you’re dying on being revealed, this isn’t a problem with Revealed being too punishing but you and your opponents not playing well.

Oh no, I’m not some thief noob that knows absolutely nothing about the class. I can win fights, Infact I’m doing pretty well with thief at stronghold with certain builds. But at conquest. It’s almost impossible to actually be viable. only a handfew of experienced thiefs can play thief. they pretty much have to play thier build completely flawless. And that is completel bullkitten.

I’m not saying that the Thief is fine, NOBODY thinks that the Thief is fine, I’m just saying that revealed is not the problem. A class that can stay completely invisible except the instants where they hit is just not a viable option. Thieves should be abler to stealth in, they should be able to stealth out, but they should not be able to pop constantly in and out of stealth, nor should they need that gameplay in order to be successful. Their balance needs to be based around being visible for at least most of a fight.

DeceiverX.8361:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

DeceiverX.8361:

I have no qualm with the revealed debuff, and having played early release before it was implemented, completely agree with its implementation. Stealth was simply way too strong prior.

Frankly, I actually prefer having stealth, particularly long-lasting effects, have counterplay. I would distinctly argue that the stealth that other classes are getting, and the revealing capabilities of other classes compounded on the notion that stealth should be the be-all-end-all defense of the thief is what’s really hurting the class balance-wise when both encountering and comparing it to others. Stealth can be quickly dismissed with strong counterplay and high skill when playing against a thief. A scrapper or chronomancer, however, have much better mechanisms to prevent such countering, and arguably stronger in-combat stealth abilities.

I love the thief, but exploitative mechanics game-wide, including what the thief is able to do such as D/D condi evasion spam or D/P ghost, are overly-problematic and hurting the integrity of the game in general.

’’Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit. ’ "

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thief

And why shouldn’t stealth be the all end defence? It’s advocated as bieng thier specialty. speedphantoms and hard to hit in general. For that reason thier sustain is absolute crap. Bassically they are the fast guy who take lots of damage when u hit them. U act as if thief relying on stealth is a bad thing.

U act as if self revealed woudl al of a sudden make the thief devoid of counterplay even tough just so listed all the revealed abilities and admitting thier overal class weakness. How in the world can u be contend with thief when. There is so much ways to counter it already? Like seriously at this point in time there is so many launches and knock backs that even shadow refuge isn’t a surefire way.

And seriously D/D condi spam is an exploit? it uses 4 iniative for crying out loud and eve then it’s not even that impressive damage wise. in 10 secs it does 3 k damage, U stack 12 stacks assuming u hit them. And then u do it 4 times maximally and then only then u can do 1.2 k condi damage per second roughly which rarely happens thanx to blinds blocks and immunities.

Dagger pistol hits average now. there is atm noting exploitable about thiefs.What do you expect a thief to do? Be a kittening Chaith? the fact that u even have a problem with dagger/dagger evasion in a meta with so much aoe skill. Even channeled skills which lock u down on stealth really makes me think u haven’t played this game for as long as u claim.

there is nothing wrong with an class described for deception and trickery bieng reliable on stealth for defensive measures.

See the highlighted text. I see no such dependency on the description that stealth is the only defense the class should have.

Almost everything in your post indicates you actually have a lot to learn about the class. There wasn’t revealed in the game early on. It was really, really, really overpowered. With more classes getting stealth access, imagine a scrapper or mesmer bursting without being revealed. It’s necessary as a mechanic. What isn’t necessary is the number and ease of access of skills and traits that inflict Revealed without a cost; Sic ‘Em is a fine example of a skill which inflicts Revealed in a reasonable manner. Revenant, DH, and Scrapper, though, shouldn’t have so many options to do so that really don’t require much risk. Fair skills like Sic ‘Em which require a target wouldn’t work at all, because a thief that didn’t get revealed would chain stealth forever while performing attacks. This is how it used to be, and this was dumb. Especially so on other classes.

AOE’s/AOE CC effects do punish the thief. And that’s an entirely different problem which not being revealed wouldn’t help. I kill a lot of thieves while they’re in stealth. I die a lot while I’m in stealth. Not getting revealed after an attack won’t do anything in either the current meta or against competent players.

And Shadow Refuge shouldn’t be a “surefire way.” It’s meant as a long-duration stealth, and it’s meant to be countered in multiple ways. Other classes have overpowered stealth abilities. I’m saying that outright. It doesn’t justify even more power creep in the game, because every profession has been screaming “We’re underpowered!”, and has been buffed, and most majorly overpowered skills and abilities causing the core problems in the game’s balance have been unaddressed or buffed as a consequence. More buffs aren’t the answer. We’ve already hit the point where things are so power-creeped and have spiraled so out of control the PvP formats are being scoffed at by the professionals who play them.

D/D condi evasion doesn’t get countered by AOE’s. There is no delay or aftercast on the evades anymore. Spamming 3 is frankly just the same as being invuln assuming you don’t put delay in your input. D/P is still better-used in competitive games for its engage speed and utility for +1’s. Otherwise, D/D condi spam is better at holding points, better at team fights, and just as good at moving around the map. I’d also mention that conditions still tick through blinds and blocks, and the ticks can be made much more substantial if you actually say, build for the condition damage and use Daredevil evades properly. I’d also like to mention you can do it five times consecutively due to natural initiative regeneration occurring mid-animation, and a steal will reset an additional three. A build using Acrobatics will regenerate an additional four initiative over this duration. Paired with vigor, the dodges from DD, and DD’s endurance recovery, you can maintain almost permanent evasion uptime while dealing damage.

Shadow Shot continues to be one of the best skills in the game despite the thief’s relative poor performance as a class. It offers the fourth-highest damage on the core thief’s kit, first being unload, second being backstab, Third being larcenous Strike, it costs less initiative, is unblockable (counters blocks which are now a huge part of the game), blinds, and teleports. D/P is the most versatile set the thief has in regards to its utility per damage, so it shouldn’t offer peak damage such as say, D/D. It also already does more.

The entirety of what makes the thief competitive is effectively defined as taking advantages of exploiting a facet of the game or class’ mechanics. Shortbow 5 on initiative lets the thief be the most mobile profession in the game. If they nerf IArrow even slightly, thief as profession takes a huge blow here. If they nerf DD dodges, the profession no longer has necessary staying power. If they nerf unload spam, P/P as a weapon loses all use. The thief right now is getting by on gimmicky exploitation alone and not through good design or balance decisions, pertaining to not just the thief but the entire game’s classes.

Combat has been largely trivialized with the specializations and arbitrary buffs and lack of essential reworks necessary for the class and game to move on. Removing the Revealed effect will do nothing to help the thief except inspire more exploitative builds
with the end result causing the thief to gain nothing in the process in terms of use or viability.

All I’m getting out of your posts is you’re dying when you become revealed and not because of people playing well to counter stealth. If people aren’t playing well to counter stealth and you’re dying on being revealed, this isn’t a problem with Revealed being too punishing but you and your opponents not playing well.

Fair enough, the description does advocate agility and speed as an active defence. Which it arguebly excelled at pre HOT patch. But at the moment that very speed makes no difference anymore.

I’m aware that thiefs in the past without revealed and other classes made it an overpowered traits. But what I’m arguing is that having revealed while doing absolutely nothing else for thief, With so much AOE and pbAOE and stuns going on is absolutely not fine. What you are arguing here is that revealed was overpowered in the past when the meta was different. So therefore implementing it now would make it overpowered, BTW Why are you bringing scrappers and other classes here. Don’t strawman me. I’m arguing for thief. Self revealed on this is horrible atm.

Shadow refuge definately should be easier to access. this skill is useless atm, no need to have it become a ’’surefire’’ way. But with already the plethora ways to counter this, which became worse and worse espically now. I see no reason to make it so kittened that if u get pushed out, u lose all of your stealth and you get an extra fine batch of revealed. The Skill is also tailored so that u bassically have to sit inside, move out earlier and boom u just waisted a 60 sec to 48 CD skill. This skill is meant to act as an refuge. Having everybody and their mother go to town on our refuge is not ok. Remeber thief have almost no acces to stability, getting forced out of shadow refuge is incredibly easy to do. It’s not worth it’s long CD atm, maby in earlier times.

Again dagger 3 spam is not an exploit. the bleeding damage is not that much to cry home about. even with full acrobatics and a 5 times dagger spam. What you are arguing from is pretty much going off of the worst situation. Not what actually happens normally. This is ridiculous that we are even arguing wheter dagger spam 3 is an exploit. It’s even more mindboggeling that u argue that thiefs stealth shouldn’t be the only viable way to defend at. And now u are litterally attacking a skill that actually gives the thief evades? Come on man. Nobody atm takes a full dagger 3 condi spam anymore. It can be counterd in so many ways, cleansing,blocking invulnerabilties or the fact that thiefs spend iniative on thier spam making them low on it in the end, it really doesn’t contribute to much here. . This is getting ridiculous here.

You and I seem to have quie a different view on what is an exploit and what is not. Just because something can be spammed, or is repeatable doesn’t make it exploitive. Stealth is really the only game mechanic a thief is reliable on. But dodges? Hardly, Even with daredevil u actually need to tailor your build so that u can dodge even tough it was advertised as bieng an more physical sub class.

Shortbow is nothing wrong here. Again u argue against a facet of the thief what it’s meant to excell at: Mobility.

Do you want the thief to just be as every other class? So far u have argued against the thief mobility and it’s evades.

And if you are getting out of my posts that I die when i get of revealed because of my lack of skill, Rather then the other classes bieng just outright stronger, more sustain and cc’s on thier side and overall lack of defence. Then yeah I’m not sure wheter you really that experienced with thiefs as your posting style suggest. This is not a L2P issue when facing odds such as classes with insane protection uptime or migh, or invulnerbailties such as the revenant. Do you realise how annoying it is when u actually have a revenant almost down and he just goes into invulnerable mode and boom. U gotta start the fight again.

Or should only be the select few bieng capable of navigating through all of that mess be able to handle thiefs?

I don’t mind self reveal, it is kind of necessary. Reveal applied by other classes is straight out moronic implementation given how much aoe is already flying around.

You know, while I don’t think that the vanilla Thief build should be able to perma-stealth, I actually could see a place for some sort of “Shadow Walker” elite spec, one that includes things like being able to actively shed Revealed, and making it easier to stay in Stealth most of the time, with certain associated costs.

In any cast, I do not see “give us more stealth availability” as the solution to the class’s problems, so I’m not swayed by the argument “but the Thief class is currently busted, so let us have this.” I still think that the solutions to the vanilla builds come from tweaking how the vanilla build functions and making those elements more useful, so that all builds are more viable. Stealth should give you an edge in combat, but it shouldn’t be the entire basis of everything you do.

Rainbowsand.2438:

“Nurf stealth” nab whine is everywhere. I play a lot of HotS and “Nurf Nova” whinethreads are popping there every day. But Blizz haves willpower to ignore them. Anet doesnt. Too much kitten.

You got things back to front dear, there once was a game studio that had ‘willpower’, they didn’t have stealth in their game because it was a bad mechanic that was impossible to balance, where as most game studios cave in to ‘nabs’ who want the easymode that is stealth and end up with the impossible balance issues that result.

Someone is suggesting removing revealed? lol wut
And what other nerfs do you propose to keep stealth from becoming grossly imbalanced?

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Fair enough, the description does advocate agility and speed as an active defence. Which it arguebly excelled at pre HOT patch. But at the moment that very speed makes no difference anymore.

I’m aware that thiefs in the past without revealed and other classes made it an overpowered traits. But what I’m arguing is that having revealed while doing absolutely nothing else for thief, With so much AOE and pbAOE and stuns going on is absolutely not fine. What you are arguing here is that revealed was overpowered in the past when the meta was different. So therefore implementing it now would make it overpowered, BTW Why are you bringing scrappers and other classes here. Don’t strawman me. I’m arguing for thief. Self revealed on this is horrible atm.

Shadow refuge definately should be easier to access. this skill is useless atm, no need to have it become a ’’surefire’’ way. But with already the plethora ways to counter this, which became worse and worse espically now. I see no reason to make it so kittened that if u get pushed out, u lose all of your stealth and you get an extra fine batch of revealed. The Skill is also tailored so that u bassically have to sit inside, move out earlier and boom u just waisted a 60 sec to 48 CD skill. This skill is meant to act as an refuge. Having everybody and their mother go to town on our refuge is not ok. Remeber thief have almost no acces to stability, getting forced out of shadow refuge is incredibly easy to do. It’s not worth it’s long CD atm, maby in earlier times.

Again dagger 3 spam is not an exploit. the bleeding damage is not that much to cry home about. even with full acrobatics and a 5 times dagger spam. What you are arguing from is pretty much going off of the worst situation. Not what actually happens normally. This is ridiculous that we are even arguing wheter dagger spam 3 is an exploit. It’s even more mindboggeling that u argue that thiefs stealth shouldn’t be the only viable way to defend at. And now u are litterally attacking a skill that actually gives the thief evades? Come on man. Nobody atm takes a full dagger 3 condi spam anymore. It can be counterd in so many ways, cleansing,blocking invulnerabilties or the fact that thiefs spend iniative on thier spam making them low on it in the end, it really doesn’t contribute to much here. . This is getting ridiculous here.

You and I seem to have quie a different view on what is an exploit and what is not. Just because something can be spammed, or is repeatable doesn’t make it exploitive. Stealth is really the only game mechanic a thief is reliable on. But dodges? Hardly, Even with daredevil u actually need to tailor your build so that u can dodge even tough it was advertised as bieng an more physical sub class.

Shortbow is nothing wrong here. Again u argue against a facet of the thief what it’s meant to excell at: Mobility.

Do you want the thief to just be as every other class? So far u have argued against the thief mobility and it’s evades.

And if you are getting out of my posts that I die when i get of revealed because of my lack of skill, Rather then the other classes bieng just outright stronger, more sustain and cc’s on thier side and overall lack of defence. Then yeah I’m not sure wheter you really that experienced with thiefs as your posting style suggest. This is not a L2P issue when facing odds such as classes with insane protection uptime or migh, or invulnerbailties such as the revenant. Do you realise how annoying it is when u actually have a revenant almost down and he just goes into invulnerable mode and boom. U gotta start the fight again.

Or should only be the select few bieng capable of navigating through all of that mess be able to handle thiefs?

D/D condi 3spam isn’t considered “as good” because of just how punishing and overpowered the current meta is right now. I’ve played the build; it was absurd against almost anything not strictly in the current meta. I’ve been saying for years this would happen if they buffed the evade and didn’t change its conditions application, and it did.

SR’s effect is incredibly potent, considering it heals baseline and offers what is literally a full heal for a thief using Rejuv if you stay in stealth for its duration. We’re not the only class facing the CC problems; even heavy-stability uptime classes like guardian and warrior are being phased out by the sheer amount of CC in the game right now. That’s indicative that the problem isn’t with the thief so much as it is the rest of the game and how much CC is being dealt. Pre-HoT, SR was functional, it did its job, and smart players would both not use it in blatant melee range and punish players by doing their best to bomb/knock the thief out using limited CC options that actually could knock the thief out.

And yes, there are also too many invuln effects. The pro players are making fun of the game because of it. Giving the thief more passive defenses won’t solve the problem, though. If the problem at hand is other classes having too high block/invuln uptime, those classes need to be toned down accordingly in that uptime. PvP is about bunkering down and they’re letting classes just straight up not die through these effects. This is innately bad design and pushing for the balance around this ideology will not help the thief or the state of the game as a whole; if nobody can ever die, sPvP trivializes to who can reach the points faster.

Ohoni.6057:

You know, while I don’t think that the vanilla Thief build should be able to perma-stealth, I actually could see a place for some sort of “Shadow Walker” elite spec, one that includes things like being able to actively shed Revealed, and making it easier to stay in Stealth most of the time, with certain associated costs.

In any cast, I do not see “give us more stealth availability” as the solution to the class’s problems, so I’m not swayed by the argument “but the Thief class is currently busted, so let us have this.” I still think that the solutions to the vanilla builds come from tweaking how the vanilla build functions and making those elements more useful, so that all builds are more viable. Stealth should give you an edge in combat, but it shouldn’t be the entire basis of everything you do.

Not to start up old arguments, but my Elite Specialization concept proposal, the Deadeye, also already had this kind of mechanic built-in as a GM trait with a 20s ICD for this style of play with the Reveal-heavy aspects of the rifle and class mechanic changes. This was intended to synergize with stealth-heavy melee builds when played properly, as the changes to Steal would prohibit a lot of easy-to-execute exploitation of a powerful mechanic, and also allow for some pretty devastating offensive and defense capabilities for the thief when taken advantage of.

The core thief does need work. Daredevil along most of the new ES have trivialized combat through blatant improvements to old styles or simply better numbers at what already existed. I feel a lot of the new elite specializations, Daredevil included, need substantial toning down, and a lot of the benefit they bring put into the core specializations as a compromise, to buff not only the diversity and issues with core specialization trait lines, but the viability of playing a core specialization in general compared to an elite specialization.

As a whole, I think we can all agree passive AOE reveal-bombs are overdone and over-punishing to the thief. Tone down the AOE reveal, tone down the stealth on other classes, and we see the thief and stealth as a mechanic in a better place.

I feel a lot of the new elite specializations, Daredevil included, need substantial toning down, and a lot of the benefit they bring put into the core specializations as a compromise, to buff not only the diversity and issues with core specialization trait lines, but the viability of playing a core specialization in general compared to an elite specialization.

I don’t think that’s where they intend Elite specs to be, and now that I’ve had time with them, I don’t think that’s where Elite specs should be. I think that they should be objectively “better” than the vanilla builds, at least at their specific role. The value in the vanilla builds shouldn’t be that you can continue to just use them and remain just as good as an Elite spec, but that you can mix and match them freely, while you can only have one Elite spec at a time.

So basically you aren’t meant to run three vanilla trait lines anymore, you’re meant to select two of them that best complement your chosen Elite spec. With DD, that isn’t likely to include Shadows, with a “Shadow Walker” style spec, that might definitely include Shadows and maybe not Acro, stuff like that.

I think that balancing the core thief is less about making the vanilla build competitive with Daredevil, and more about making the vanilla build competitive with other vanilla builds, and therefore giving each of those traitlines elements that would be beneficial to future Elite specs (whereas if they focused on buffing the DD traits then they would be back at square one when the next set of Elites came out).

I remember when thief was a major annoyance for tough autoattackers, stabbing them in the back and constantly recloaking. Now thief does his 19k burst rotation and gets stomped a second later because he cannot restealth.

I remember when thief was a major annoyance for tough autoattackers, stabbing them in the back and constantly recloaking. Now thief does his 19k burst rotation and gets stomped a second later because he cannot restealth.

Right, but the solution is not to turn back the clock, it’s to help better balance the Thief so that he doesn’t get stomped when he can’t restealth.

Ohoni.6057:

I feel a lot of the new elite specializations, Daredevil included, need substantial toning down, and a lot of the benefit they bring put into the core specializations as a compromise, to buff not only the diversity and issues with core specialization trait lines, but the viability of playing a core specialization in general compared to an elite specialization.

I don’t think that’s where they intend Elite specs to be, and now that I’ve had time with them, I don’t think that’s where Elite specs should be. I think that they should be objectively “better” than the vanilla builds, at least at their specific role. The value in the vanilla builds shouldn’t be that you can continue to just use them and remain just as good as an Elite spec, but that you can mix and match them freely, while you can only have one Elite spec at a time.

So basically you aren’t meant to run three vanilla trait lines anymore, you’re meant to select two of them that best complement your chosen Elite spec. With DD, that isn’t likely to include Shadows, with a “Shadow Walker” style spec, that might definitely include Shadows and maybe not Acro, stuff like that.

I think that balancing the core thief is less about making the vanilla build competitive with Daredevil, and more about making the vanilla build competitive with other vanilla builds, and therefore giving each of those traitlines elements that would be beneficial to future Elite specs (whereas if they focused on buffing the DD traits then they would be back at square one when the next set of Elites came out).

In Colin and Mike’s own words on the announcement of the expansion at PAX South, the Elite specializations are not meant to invoke extra power or cause the profession to excel any amount further than combinations of the core specializations. They were announced and advertised with the design intent of changing the way the classes can be played.

Consider if Critical Strikes was never a trait line. Or SA. These lines define a particular style of play or award benefits or apply synergy to using certain styles of play. Yes, some trait lines are “stronger” than others, but it’s the combination of many that defines a build and overarching style of play. DA/CS/Tr plays much differently than DA/CS/SA and CS/SA/Tr.

It is for this reason I distinctly argue that the Reaper is the closest-to-balanced elite specialization. It did what it was intended to do: change the way necromancer played. Reaper is considered as being objectively stronger than the base Necro in the sPvP and PvE scenes for totally different reasons; sPvP declares it stronger for condition application and stability in shroud in a format with an excess of CC, and in PvE, the Reaper lets the necromancer deal considerable cleave and DPS instead of intermittent single-target burst. Reapers sacrifice innate durability to maintain their damage, and sacrifice a strong ranged option for a more potent melee one. The core necromancer definitely has issues that should be looked into, such as potentially providing stability access in shroud for consistency in sPvP if the CC doesn’t get reduced, but the backline burst well-o-mancer is still an extremely strong build, and the base necro is definitely stronger as a counter-condition spec over the reaper.

In the case of the thief, Daredevil is just a straight upgrade to almost every trait line with next to no trade-offs. It also doesn’t carry the design change that the Reaper does; it’s functionally identical to Acrobatics’ intent, and is arguably better than Acrobatics was pre-nerf. The Daredevil simply doesn’t change anything for the thief in this regard, and therefore imho is poorly-designed and just as poorly-implemented for how it overshadows almost all other trait lines and styles of play through what is a more versatile and objectively improved arrangement of traits.

If all trait lines were designed this way, with global synergies and overlaps (as I have proposed in the past) with a bit of specialization, then there wouldn’t be a problem. The problem is that many trait lines are extremely linear in design, and half-baked implementation to resolve this by not reworking all existing trait lines and classes results in the E-spec disparity and over-dependence we have now.

Ohoni.6057:

I remember when thief was a major annoyance for tough autoattackers, stabbing them in the back and constantly recloaking. Now thief does his 19k burst rotation and gets stomped a second later because he cannot restealth.

Right, but the solution is not to turn back the clock, it’s to help better balance the Thief so that he doesn’t get stomped when he can’t restealth.

Absolutely. Additionally, it’s important to know just how few or many baskets you’re putting your eggs into; my Signet build has definitive and very extreme weaknesses, but also very definitive and extreme strengths. Building entirely around stealth should only imply that one faces massive penalties while out of stealth and needs to use the rest of their utilities, weapons, or in general game knowledge and skill to overcome obstacles, or simply accept losses or not anticipate a win. The more heavily you specialize, the more heavily you should be able to be countered by people built to counter that style.

Daredevil as a whole minimizes a lot of these counters (as per most elite specializations), and as I mentioned above, the existing AOE reveal effects coming from other classes are a bit overtuned for stealth-based defenses, particularly in the case of the thief relative to other classes which can maintain stealth. I staunchly disagree with the notion that self-inflicted Revealed is a bad idea, however. You know you’re going to be revealed if you make a build that focuses on stealth uptime AND attacking from stealth for burst, rather than attacking after stealth ends for continual poking and slipperiness. These are sacrifices that need to be made and considered, and are fully at the discretion of the thief himself, and can be taken advantage of not only during build theory, but even in the midst of combat. Sometimes rushing the backstab isn’t the best option, and it’s important to know when and why to think like that.

In Colin and Mike’s own words on the announcement of the expansion at PAX South, the Elite specializations are not meant to invoke extra power or cause the profession to excel any amount further than combinations of the core specializations. They were announced and advertised with the design intent of changing the way the classes can be played.

That may be their intention at the time, but it’s clearly not what we got, and really it shouldn’t be what we got. Elite specs have a lot to them, you need to not only max out all the other traits and skills (which you don’t need for other trait lines), but you then need 200 HP on top of that to fully unlock them. For all the hassle involved, it really does stand to reason that they be clearly “better” than the alternatives. It would be pretty disappointing if they we just like “yeah, you can use them or not, whatever,” given all the cost.

I think that once there are several Elite specs out there the new normal we settle into should be that your build is defined by the Elite you choose, and the other five traitlines should be used to tweak that build, ideally with 2-3 possible combinations of them that will have a solid role to play, but some traitlines will be complete junk for certain Elites, and that’s fine. It’s only more of an issue right now since we only have one Elite per class, so the “junk” traitlines are complete junk, rather than just being useful to a different spec.

I think Elite specs should be balanced against each other, the Thief Elite #2 should not be stronger than the DD, but I think it’s fair for the DD to be stronger than the not DD, at the very least in PvE (I can see an argument for them to be equal in PvP, given that they want the F2P to be competitive and you don’t have to actually earn them in PvP).

Just hate that a slow projectile hits a target right after you pop blinding powder.

Ohoni.6057:

In Colin and Mike’s own words on the announcement of the expansion at PAX South, the Elite specializations are not meant to invoke extra power or cause the profession to excel any amount further than combinations of the core specializations. They were announced and advertised with the design intent of changing the way the classes can be played.

That may be their intention at the time, but it’s clearly not what we got, and really it shouldn’t be what we got. Elite specs have a lot to them, you need to not only max out all the other traits and skills (which you don’t need for other trait lines), but you then need 200 HP on top of that to fully unlock them. For all the hassle involved, it really does stand to reason that they be clearly “better” than the alternatives. It would be pretty disappointing if they we just like “yeah, you can use them or not, whatever,” given all the cost.

I think that once there are several Elite specs out there the new normal we settle into should be that your build is defined by the Elite you choose, and the other five traitlines should be used to tweak that build, ideally with 2-3 possible combinations of them that will have a solid role to play, but some traitlines will be complete junk for certain Elites, and that’s fine. It’s only more of an issue right now since we only have one Elite per class, so the “junk” traitlines are complete junk, rather than just being useful to a different spec.

I think Elite specs should be balanced against each other, the Thief Elite #2 should not be stronger than the DD, but I think it’s fair for the DD to be stronger than the not DD, at the very least in PvE (I can see an argument for them to be equal in PvP, given that they want the F2P to be competitive and you don’t have to actually earn them in PvP).

I disagree whole-heartedly. There shouldn’t be any excuse for any given trait line option to be blatantly superior to any other. These decisions should be made during build construction for the style of play desired.

I disagree whole-heartedly. There shouldn’t be any excuse for any given trait line option to be blatantly superior to any other. These decisions should be made during build construction for the style of play desired.

But if Elite specs should not be superior to the default ones then how do you justify the added costs in obtaining them? That’d be like saying that they should raise the level cap to 100 and you have to grind your way up there, but there isn’t actually any stat increases or new abilities available and level 80 characters would be equally as strong in all content.

Ohoni.6057:

I disagree whole-heartedly. There shouldn’t be any excuse for any given trait line option to be blatantly superior to any other. These decisions should be made during build construction for the style of play desired.

But if Elite specs should not be superior to the default ones then how do you justify the added costs in obtaining them? That’d be like saying that they should raise the level cap to 100 and you have to grind your way up there, but there isn’t actually any stat increases or new abilities available and level 80 characters would be equally as strong in all content.

You’ve literally just described the HoT expansion. lol

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ohoni.6057:

I disagree whole-heartedly. There shouldn’t be any excuse for any given trait line option to be blatantly superior to any other. These decisions should be made during build construction for the style of play desired.

But if Elite specs should not be superior to the default ones then how do you justify the added costs in obtaining them? That’d be like saying that they should raise the level cap to 100 and you have to grind your way up there, but there isn’t actually any stat increases or new abilities available and level 80 characters would be equally as strong in all content.

You’ve literally just described the HoT expansion. lol

Correct. Thus the entire point of “Horizontal progression” – also a term mentioned by CJ and MO at PAX South – which was what was supposed to make HoT different from traditional MMO expansions; it was about completely removing power creep/any increases in power at all but meant to increase the breadth of styles a given profession can play or methods of specialization.

Correct. Thus the entire point of “Horizontal progression” – also a term mentioned by CJ and MO at PAX South – which was what was supposed to make HoT different from traditional MMO expansions; it was about completely removing power creep/any increases in power at all but meant to increase the breadth of styles a given profession can play or methods of specialization.

I don’t think that’s true at all though. I mean even if you just take the Mastery systems, it IS power creep, a fully mastered character is unarguably stronger than a non-HoT character, it’s just situational power creep, the benefits you get ONLY apply within the Magus Falls region (most of them, at least). I mean, being able to glide, ignore Chak Acid, ignore certain enemy stealth, use Speed and Adrenal shrooms, you cannot claim that these do not give you combat advantages where they are available, they just aren’t always available, so you do progress, but not in a way that trivilizes existing content. Likewise, I expect expansion #2 to include a bunch of new things that will make a maxed out XPac2 character stronger in that new region than a maxed HoT character, but take him to the Jungle and those advantages disappear.

Right, and those advantages are only applicable within the confines of the expansion content and can only be leveled via the expansion content. Or for Core Tyria, completion of Tyrian content.

Your argument’s logic indicates that we should all just embrace a notion in which sPvP should allow PvE gear, food, ascendeds, etc. and not be decided by an amulet system because completion of core content should supercede class balance in a competitive game mode designed to reward skillful play at PvP over PvE success, because there exists some degree of power increase at specific content type based on prior completion of any other given content type, relevant or not.

Elite specializations are game-wide and do not require the completion or investment of the expansion content. Therefore, they should not be innately superior to core specializations at non-expansion content.

Your argument’s logic indicates that we should all just embrace a notion in which sPvP should allow PvE gear, food, ascendeds, etc. and not be decided by an amulet system because completion of core content should supercede class balance in a competitive game mode designed to reward skillful play at PvP over PvE success, because there exists some degree of power increase at specific content type based on prior completion of any other given content type, relevant or not.

Nope.

Elite specializations are game-wide and do not require the completion or investment of the expansion content. Therefore, they should not be innately superior to core specializations at non-expansion content.

I don’t see why not.

Ohoni.6057:

Your argument’s logic indicates that we should all just embrace a notion in which sPvP should allow PvE gear, food, ascendeds, etc. and not be decided by an amulet system because completion of core content should supercede class balance in a competitive game mode designed to reward skillful play at PvP over PvE success, because there exists some degree of power increase at specific content type based on prior completion of any other given content type, relevant or not.

Nope.

Elite specializations are game-wide and do not require the completion or investment of the expansion content. Therefore, they should not be innately superior to core specializations at non-expansion content.

I don’t see why not.

you know by that logic thief class should be deleted from game completely since they are not effective

you know by that logic thief class should be deleted from game completely since they are not effective

. . .

I’m not exactly sure how you got there.
. . .

No, that’s not accurate, I’m not at all sure how you considered that “there” was a place that might be reached in the first place.

Ohoni.6057:

Your argument’s logic indicates that we should all just embrace a notion in which sPvP should allow PvE gear, food, ascendeds, etc. and not be decided by an amulet system because completion of core content should supercede class balance in a competitive game mode designed to reward skillful play at PvP over PvE success, because there exists some degree of power increase at specific content type based on prior completion of any other given content type, relevant or not.

Nope.

Please counter-argue using the notion that new content should blatantly supescede old content in terms of raw power and that those not playing the new content should suffer for not playing it.

Please counter-argue using the notion that new content should blatantly supescede old content in terms of raw power and that those not playing the new content should suffer for not playing it.

Nope.

Ohoni.6057:

Your argument’s logic indicates that we should all just embrace a notion in which sPvP should allow PvE gear, food, ascendeds, etc. and not be decided by an amulet system because completion of core content should supercede class balance in a competitive game mode designed to reward skillful play at PvP over PvE success, because there exists some degree of power increase at specific content type based on prior completion of any other given content type, relevant or not.

Nope.

Elite specializations are game-wide and do not require the completion or investment of the expansion content. Therefore, they should not be innately superior to core specializations at non-expansion content.

I don’t see why not.

I’m really glad that ArenaNet doesn’t share your perspective.

reveal it’s necessary,when you have more than one class who can stealth better then a thief do you need a counterplay,as revenant i can say to you that reveal stay 5 sec and 20 sec cd more or less,but i have to use it losing a breakstun so it’s a risk if you consider the amount of cc that most of the class running around.
but i remember when thief could perma stealth kill 5 player alone bursting them down to death. amazing build to see played frustrating to play against,and at that time nobody had a counterplay for that build.
so yes stealth on thief and not just that it’s been nerf it to oblivion. will see on the next patch