Guild Wars 2

Did you even think of the repercussions of this change before you made it? I’m starting thing what happened was that after seeing the thief communities reaction you realized that was a bad idea but you still had to appease the noobs and at the last minute you did this without thinking how it would affect the class.

I don’t care what you do as long as you do something ANet. Playing my thief is frustrating now. It’s not as fun anymore. It’s kind of a pain in the kitten.

We need our stealth time to match our auto-attack chain!

I always thought that’s why you chose 3s attack time because with every weapon set it was very easy to determine when to stealth. Finish you auto-chain stealth.

Now, it feels wierd because stealth falls in the middle of attacks and it feels so stupid and clunky to play a thief right now.

Increase attack speed and damage to scale up to compensate for the 4s change for all auto-chains on thief.
Add in 4th auto-attack in the chain to cover the 4s change.
Simply revert to 3s revealed, culling was enough of a fix to thieves in wvw and spvp didn’t have a problem with stealthing imo.

I’m going to keep posting about this until I get a response from ANet. I really think this needs to be addressed ASAP for the good of the class.

I doubt a response will be forthcoming, but holy cow did it mess up the flow, feeling, fluidity, whatever you want to call it.

listen friend, i understand you upset but you also need to take a deep breath and calm down. Its hard to take suggestions from someone who is angry, even if your argument is passionate. Also demanding something feels very self entitled, and probably wont get you very far to use that terminoligy if you want to see actual changes.

On one hand, P/D condition builds seem to be completely unaffected by the patch. but i can completely understand your frustration. haveing fludity in a combo is what makes a class fun and make it have synergy, when that tempo is off is kills alot of the entertainment. because you actual have to sit and watch rather than just feel it out.

Aven.7295:

On one hand, P/D condition builds seem to be completely unaffected by the patch.

I flub getting into C&D stealth with the longer reveal every now and then, but mostly yeah, unaffected.

+1, main concern. Feels like the developers were completely oblivious about this side effect being possible before they did the nerf.

ANet reads: “Lets increase reaveal to a 5-6 second time so it matches 2 autoattack chains.”

They could increase it to 6 seconds, so you get 2 auto chains per stealth. Yay fluidity again.

Adaneshade.2409:

They could increase it to 6 seconds, so you get 2 auto chains per stealth. Yay fluidity again.

Yay, childish post about serious problem!

My inner child refuses to take your problem seriously.

Bumping revealed even longer would make it fluid like the other ‘kat said, but yikes even longer out of regen and fewer might stacks, owie. That’s ok, I hope they pass.

swinsk.6410:

Adaneshade.2409:

They could increase it to 6 seconds, so you get 2 auto chains per stealth. Yay fluidity again.

Yay, childish post about serious problem!

That’s not childish at all.
I could definitely see ANet going that route.

Did not mean it childishly in the least. If fluidity is such a big deal, and they want to decrease the time we spend in stealth…..that’s the next logical step.

Adaneshade.2409:

Did not mean it childishly in the least. If fluidity is such a big deal, and they want to decrease the time we spend in stealth…..that’s the next logical step.

If you ignore the fact that a 6s reveal would utterly ruin most thief specs in both PvE and PvP, not to mention ruining the SA tree almost entirely, I suppose that could count as “logical”.

There are ways to say “I disagree” without being a snarky kitten about it though. Please look into them.

Adaneshade.2409:

Did not mean it childishly in the least. If fluidity is such a big deal, and they want to decrease the time we spend in stealth…..that’s the next logical step.

The next logical step to me is to revert the changes and see how culling plays out.

Well, that would have been the first logical step to me. If it was still a problem, then I would probably add the 4s but in the same patch I would have changed auto-attack or fixed it so that the “feel” of the class didn’t change.

Seriously, there isn’t a big deal between 4s and 3s other than the timing of our swings.

The biggest nerf to thief was hands down removal of culling in wvw.

This isn’t daoc where a class gets punished for years because people complain about it constantly then finally when they do get some changes they are way over the top to compensate for the years of abuse.

ANet to me has always seemed to be fairly slow when making changes in regards to balance. One small step or few small steps at a time.

This change here I think was too far or incomplete.

EDIT: I just think they made a mistake with this one and I’m not even talking about it being overpowered or underpowered. Just talking about changing the way a class feels while playing it. Which is why I was so against the first proposed nerf to stealth. Having a revealed no matter what would totally change the way you play a thief… This change is much better, if a change was needed, but still managed to skew the feel but not as large as revealed all the time.

swinsk.6410:

Adaneshade.2409:

Did not mean it childishly in the least. If fluidity is such a big deal, and they want to decrease the time we spend in stealth…..that’s the next logical step.

The next logical step to me is to revert the changes and see how culling plays out.

Well, that would have been the first logical step to me. If it was still a problem, then I would probably add the 4s but in the same patch I would have changed auto-attack or fixed it so that the “feel” of the class didn’t change.

Seriously, there isn’t a big deal between 4s and 3s other than the timing of our swings.

The biggest nerf to thief was hands down removal of culling in wvw.

This isn’t daoc where a class gets punished for years because people complain about it constantly then finally when they do get some changes they are way over the top to compensate for the years of abuse.

ANet to me has always seemed to be fairly slow when making changes in regards to balance. One small step or few small steps at a time.

This change here I think was too far or incomplete.

EDIT: I just think they made a mistake with this one and I’m not even talking about it being overpowered or underpowered. Just talking about changing the way a class feels while playing it. Which is why I was so against the first proposed nerf to stealth. Having a revealed no matter what would totally change the way you play a thief… This change is much better, if a change was needed, but still managed to skew the feel but not as large as revealed all the time.

Yeah, I can agree that something definitely needs to be done with the fluidity of combat particularly for those that rely on stealth as bread and butter. I don’t really feel that the removal of culling had quite the effect we were expecting, though; and the devs clearly think the class needs some adjustment.

One extra second of revealed did nothing but make gameplay feel more clunky, it did not really effectively reduce the power of the thief in combat. Six seconds might both bring fluidity back and reduce the power of stealth as a mechanic; then again, it might not. The only way to really know for sure is to try it.

You will adjust. Its not a biggie just used to the old timing

It’s not been an issue for me as I play without the use of stealth as a matter of principle. But I do see how it’s adversely affecting those who do utilize stealth.

Adaneshade.2409:

It’s not been an issue for me as I play without the use of stealth as a matter of principle. But I do see how it’s adversely affecting those who do utilize stealth.

Just because you don’t use abilities in question doesn’t mean there isn’t something wrong with them.

/clap you don’t use stealth and use some other build.

There are some of us who like stealth and made it thieves specifically because of stealth.

If the thief class didn’t exist I would have never played this game and if it was removed I would quit.

Adaneshade.2409:

Yeah, I can agree that something definitely needs to be done with the fluidity of combat particularly for those that rely on stealth as bread and butter. I don’t really feel that the removal of culling had quite the effect we were expecting, though; and the devs clearly think the class needs some adjustment.

One extra second of revealed did nothing but make gameplay feel more clunky, it did not really effectively reduce the power of the thief in combat. Six seconds might both bring fluidity back and reduce the power of stealth as a mechanic; then again, it might not. The only way to really know for sure is to try it.

6s of stealth would literally make the class unplayable for unskilled players. I don’t use stealth in spvp only wvw.

Also, where do you get that “devs clearly think the class needs some adjustment” from?

Either back that up with a quote and a link or don’t make such a statement imo.

My stealth-reliant thief is completely fraudulent, but I haven’t felt too burdened by this. If they implemented the chain stealth fix they had mentioned, my thief would have been completely exposed for the trash that it is, but this reveal length change has done next to nothing.

I think if it had been 4s from the get-go, people just would’ve been accustomed to it. Maybe at some point I’ll see this light that is the 3s reveal, but I can’t say I’ve seen much wrong with the change.

I think it’d be cool if they implemented a trait that would reduce reveal time to 3s. Yeah, it means you’d have to give up an existing trait, but you’d be that much better with stealth than any other thief (except for the ones who also took that trait).

I don’t even think adding more fluidity to the thief AA would be too much of a bad thing. We’d still revealed for a whole second more. More time for people to remember where their dodge button is and avoid the CnD ^.^

So swinsk, the ever-reliable champion of telling people to l2p instead of trying to get anet to fix a problem, is trying to get anet to fix a problem.

Or we can all thief troll wvw with the 10/30/30/0/0 all valkyrie build. Actions speak much louder than words, so Anet OBVIOUSLY wants this. Especially judging from the facts, now that other facets of gameplay aren’t fun (the purpose of gw2: “fun”) or viable. Anet clearly doesnt want us to sPvP since ele is the thief and warriors are the assassins. PvE is no longer fun. Anet intentionally forced us to use the auto-attack chains with revealed debuff and nerfing non-stealth builds. Now the auto-attack is clunky and more awkward than any form of unrequited love. Thief support is cruel April Fools joke exacted on us all year round. ANet is clearly saying with their actions that thief is a WvW skirmishing class. As soon as we adapt the thief to anything else, Anet changes the class to push us more in that direction. So I say we agree with the devs and just mass troll wvw with mug/bs builds. We can even all use Facebook or some other sites to coordinate the flood.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So swinsk, the ever-reliable champion of telling people to l2p instead of trying to get anet to fix a problem, is trying to get anet to fix a problem.

There is a difference when telling someone to “L2P” when dealing with another classes abilities and this.

I never said I couldn’t learn to use the system as is. I have already adjusted for it. The problem is not “L2P”. The problem is after I have “L2P” the current system is literally frustrating and annoying to use due to recent changes where otherwise it was near flawless on the “fluidity” level.

swinsk.6410:

Adaneshade.2409:

Yeah, I can agree that something definitely needs to be done with the fluidity of combat particularly for those that rely on stealth as bread and butter. I don’t really feel that the removal of culling had quite the effect we were expecting, though; and the devs clearly think the class needs some adjustment.

One extra second of revealed did nothing but make gameplay feel more clunky, it did not really effectively reduce the power of the thief in combat. Six seconds might both bring fluidity back and reduce the power of stealth as a mechanic; then again, it might not. The only way to really know for sure is to try it.

6s of stealth would literally make the class unplayable for unskilled players. I don’t use stealth in spvp only wvw.

Also, where do you get that “devs clearly think the class needs some adjustment” from?

Either back that up with a quote and a link or don’t make such a statement imo.

The simple fact that they attempted to nerf stealth and caltrops shows they feel this way. I don’t include the haste nerf since it was universal across classes.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

So swinsk, the ever-reliable champion of telling people to l2p instead of trying to get anet to fix a problem, is trying to get anet to fix a problem.

haha I actually logged in just to say this.

I think for once it’s time for thieves to have to l2p. This change has really separated the thieves who knew their class well from the thieves who abused a mechanic. Stealth was always meant to be used tactically, this 4th second forces you to actually have to plan your fights as opposed to just spam stealth. Besides, with the amounts of shadow steps and other tricks we have, that one more second really shouldn’t be the end of the world. Unless of course you were a bad thief.

I’ve always wanted to say this, but l2p

Edit: So I said that the 4th second shouldn’t be affecting you too badly, and people are like “Whiterose you’re so dumb the 4th second shouldn’t be affecting you too badly.”

I’m sorry for the wrongness of my post.

The 4th second doesnt force anything except another auto attack, stealth spammers do just fine. can still CnD all day long. whiterose your assessment is just absolutely wrong. If they would have changed stealth how they said in the sotg THAT would have made a difference in pvp encounters, but the fourth second? does nothing but throws off the timing a little

Only thing they can do to “fix” stealth IMO is what they had planned to do in the first place. Adding revealed on destealth adds err of counterplay to stealth, forcing them to use it as an attack or evade.

No one in PvP is actually affected by the second, only PvE. I’m really getting tired of people like whiterose above who have the feeling that this has changed thieves in any way from stripping them of their pride 1v1. It’s a pretty big nerf in PvE, where we are already falling behind, and I think this was just a terrible idea.

3 seconds after reveal would: see an end to stealth stomps, as most people can interrupt the thief mid-stomp and put them on revealed. this makes it effectively less stupid than most other modified stomps, so problem solved.

it would also see a way to “counter” stealth, by CCing them before/durring stealth and forcing the thief to panic about not completing their attack on time, and going revealed.

6 seconds of revealed makes no sense. It would further diminish viability in PvE, where no thieves is commonplace, and would cause a lot of problems overall. Fix what needs to be fixed.

EDIT: I say this with all sincerity, but anyone who says there is a tangible difference between the 3 and 4 second reveal in PvP when fighting against a thief is just experiencing a placebo effect.

WhiteRose.6934:

I think for once it’s time for thieves to have to l2p. This change has really separated the thieves who knew their class well from the thieves who abused a mechanic. Stealth was always meant to be used tactically, this 4th second forces you to actually have to plan your fights as opposed to just spam stealth. Besides, with the amounts of shadow steps and other tricks we have, that one more second really shouldn’t be the end of the world. Unless of course you were a bad thief.

I’ve always wanted to say this, but l2p

Uh, yeah, no. Laika just said it best:

Laika.8795:

EDIT: I say this with all sincerity, but anyone who says there is a tangible difference between the 3 and 4 second reveal in PvP when fighting against a thief is just experiencing a placebo effect.

Thieves can still troll you with stealth all day long and the extra second has made no difference to GC one-trick-ponies except ENCOURAGE them to do so more often, thus being WORSE for you. Had the original plan to apply Revealed every 3 seconds with no exception been implemented, THEN you’d have seen a difference. As it stands, PvE suffers immensely from terrible rotation synergy and is now unnecessarily awkward, making them worse for PvE than they already were, for no reason other than a pathetic attempt to balance for PvP, a failure in absolutely every regard.

I am sick and tired of clueless dolts who are only here because of PvP bitterness jumping in this sub-forum and pretending that they understand what’s going on with this update, when it’s in fact almost entirely a PvE problem and thus nothing to do with you.

swinsk.6410:

We need our stealth time to match our auto-attack chain!

I always thought that’s why you chose 3s attack time because with every weapon set it was very easy to determine when to stealth. Finish you auto-chain stealth.

Now, it feels wierd because stealth falls in the middle of attacks and it feels so stupid and clunky to play a thief right now.

For D/d or D/p in PvP, I’d recommend testing some of the combos listed in this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-Rotation-Adaptations

For PvE, I typically play S/D. With that weaponset, I haven’t felt the timing change to be that much of an adaptability issue.

Adaneshade.2409:

The simple fact that they attempted to nerf stealth and caltrops shows they feel this way. I don’t include the haste nerf since it was universal across classes.

Ah, to me that is already in the past. I do not treat ANet like Mythic. If this were daoc I would agree with you.

I feel that the arenanet guys are trying to do their best. This issue that has arisen from the nerf doesn’t mean they don’t care about it IMO. I’ll wait until they officially comment on it.

This isn’t mythic were classes get abused for years simply because they were too powerful when they first made the class.

I feel like you are taking your experience with mythic and applying it to arenanet, which to me isn’t fair to anet.

swinsk.6410:

Did you even think of the repercussions of this change before you made it? I’m starting thing what happened was that after seeing the thief communities reaction you realized that was a bad idea but you still had to appease the noobs and at the last minute you did this without thinking how it would affect the class.

I don’t care what you do as long as you do something ANet. Playing my thief is frustrating now. It’s not as fun anymore. It’s kind of a pain in the kitten.

We need our stealth time to match our auto-attack chain!

I always thought that’s why you chose 3s attack time because with every weapon set it was very easy to determine when to stealth. Finish you auto-chain stealth.

Now, it feels wierd because stealth falls in the middle of attacks and it feels so stupid and clunky to play a thief right now.

Increase attack speed and damage to scale up to compensate for the 4s change for all auto-chains on thief.
Add in 4th auto-attack in the chain to cover the 4s change.
Simply revert to 3s revealed, culling was enough of a fix to thieves in wvw and spvp didn’t have a problem with stealthing imo.

I’m going to keep posting about this until I get a response from ANet. I really think this needs to be addressed ASAP for the good of the class.

(a) class needs a lot more nerfs first – wait for them

(b) slow the chain down from 3s to 4s – job done.

I truly do think that they should have held back on the Reveal change until data from the culling fix could be gathered. That was the larger issue in WvW, not the reveal time itself. Seeing how that change affected players and the data first would have been best. And if it did need tweaking, then go through with the Reveal change.