Guild Wars 2

Thieves are in a pathetic meta status and yet all i see is people still crying for nerfs.

Heck i would even dare to say thieves are the lowest pvp tier in tpvp.

and i don’t really see arenanet willing to fix any of these, even if LS was a nice addition, that’s it…. bring Dancing dagger back, up the PW damage, bring radical changes to P/P….anything

And yet things like trap ranger and 1shot shatter every 8 seconds are completly fine.

What’s with all the mindless nerf-asking threads?!

bc people who hate thieves….dont play them. and then when a good thief comes by and does well (bc thieves are ONLY good when good players play them) they say he beat me 1 v 1 or 1 v 2 and thats not fair blah blah blah like 1v1 is the messiah match of making a hierarchy of skilled classes which thieves would be so whiningly put on top.

i beg to differ, while a skilled thief would have a better chance vs another skilled players our current meta still puts us in a lower winning chance by game definition, a good shatter mesmer or a good ranger, heck even a good ele will just kitten the heck out of the skilled thief.

you are right …under 1 condition…..that the thief stays withing a certain distance during the fight. if u count resetting a fight a loss….then a thief will lose 4/5 im guessing. they really do have to get it just right with no mistakes in order to win. thieves have no room to wiggle/mess up

Because people are stupid, Thieves have stealth, and stupid people obsess over stealth in every MMO that has it.

Fact.

Because people want to faceroll onto the 1st page of the leaderboards.

Sons.5493:

i beg to differ, while a skilled thief would have a better chance vs another skilled players our current meta still puts us in a lower winning chance by game definition, a good shatter mesmer or a good ranger, heck even a good ele will just kitten the heck out of the skilled thief.

See the part where you said “heck even a good ele” DD eles in general I avoid. No just NO

Because WvW.

Thieves are bad in sPvP, where certain constraints are put on gameplay (less burst, stealth stops point capping), but are ridiculous in WvW, especially at roaming.

It’s like if you reduce 100blades damage, and warriors ask “but we suck in sPvP, so why nerf us more?” The nerf isn’t targeted at sPvP – everyone agrees that GS warriors are amazing for PvE, so the damage can be reduced to what other classes are capable of.

Besides, the last patch didn’t even nerf Thieves; in fact there were a lot of buffs.

Sunflowers.1729:

Because WvW.

Thieves are bad in sPvP, where certain constraints are put on gameplay (less burst, stealth stops point capping), but are ridiculous in WvW, especially at roaming.

It’s like if you reduce 100blades damage, and warriors ask “but we suck in sPvP, so why nerf us more?” The nerf isn’t targeted at sPvP – everyone agrees that GS warriors are amazing for PvE, so the damage can be reduced to what other classes are capable of.

Besides, the last patch didn’t even nerf Thieves; in fact there were a lot of buffs.

Woulda been the first awesome patch for Thief if not for Shortbow being so buggy now. Sword/Dagger is pretty fun now when all of it’s Weapon Skills are actually useful. Now if only the rest of our flawed, dull or useless skills would get revamped.

Because thieves are annoying, doesn’t matter that they’re trash, people will continue to complain and ANet will continue to nerf.

Sunflowers.1729:

Because WvW.

Thieves are bad in sPvP, where certain constraints are put on gameplay (less burst, stealth stops point capping), but are ridiculous in WvW, especially at roaming.

It’s like if you reduce 100blades damage, and warriors ask “but we suck in sPvP, so why nerf us more?” The nerf isn’t targeted at sPvP – everyone agrees that GS warriors are amazing for PvE, so the damage can be reduced to what other classes are capable of.

Besides, the last patch didn’t even nerf Thieves; in fact there were a lot of buffs.

I consider mug dmg reduction a nerf that compeltly destroys the BS combo build, not that i use it but iwas one of the only viable builds we had in tournies. And the healing we get now it’s just a lame excuse to nerf the kitten out of mug.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Sons.5493:

i beg to differ, while a skilled thief would have a better chance vs another skilled players our current meta still puts us in a lower winning chance by game definition, a good shatter mesmer or a good ranger, heck even a good ele will just kitten the heck out of the skilled thief.

See the part where you said “heck even a good ele” DD eles in general I avoid. No just NO

I love fighting eles. They seem to have this air of “lol I’m an ele, that makes me superior to you” about them, which apparently makes them think that they can keep running while I’m murdering them from behind.

Arganthium.5638:

RedSpectrum.1975:

Sons.5493:

i beg to differ, while a skilled thief would have a better chance vs another skilled players our current meta still puts us in a lower winning chance by game definition, a good shatter mesmer or a good ranger, heck even a good ele will just kitten the heck out of the skilled thief.

See the part where you said “heck even a good ele” DD eles in general I avoid. No just NO

I love fighting eles. They seem to have this air of “lol I’m an ele, that makes me superior to you” about them, which apparently makes them think that they can keep running while I’m murdering them from behind.

You know what? Youre right, Im not standing for that >:(

Sons.5493:

Thieves are in a pathetic meta status and yet all i see is people still crying for nerfs.

Heck i would even dare to say thieves are the lowest pvp tier in tpvp.

and i don’t really see arenanet willing to fix any of these, even if LS was a nice addition, that’s it…. bring Dancing dagger back, up the PW damage, bring radical changes to P/P….anything

And yet things like trap ranger and 1shot shatter every 8 seconds are completly fine.

What’s with all the mindless nerf-asking threads?!

Because, every class that utilizes stealth in an MMO has been cried about since the dawn of MMOs. Why? Because people are dumb, and dont understand how to counter stealth mechanics in their respective games.

Thieves could do 0 damage, but someone would still cry for a nerf because the Thief stealthed and ran away, and they didnt get the kill they wanted.

Certain things could have used the nerf after the game launched. Assassin’s Signet for example. That 150% was just a bit too much. But now, it’s better for it since it adds an overall 65% more.

Beyond that, I can’t really think of anything that ever needed to be nerfed, maybe Dancing Dagger, but only a little bit. They definitely over nerfed it. Everything else seems to be the dev’s caving into the QQ (i.e. Pistol Whip, when the morons that cried about it should have been running a stun break), or deciding to change things on a whim (i.e, Shortbow’s Trickshot, Reaveled debuff…).

But, as long as thieves exist, and the good ones can get a kill with proper dodging, positioning, etc, someone will complain. Happens in MMO’s, and it will continue to happen in MMO’s. Because some people are just too dense/lazy to learn how to counter.

Sunflowers.1729:

Besides, the last patch didn’t even nerf Thieves; in fact there were a lot of buffs.

Shortbow auto attack nerf, Mug nerf, Smoke screen nerf… I don’t even recall a major patch that didn’t nerf thieves.

Sunflowers.1729:

Because WvW.

Thieves are bad in sPvP, where certain constraints are put on gameplay (less burst, stealth stops point capping), but are ridiculous in WvW, especially at roaming.

Exactly. Most people have never claimed that thieves are overpowered in pvp, but they are indeed the “low risk, high reward” profession in WvWvW. Arguably the best roaming profession in WvWvW and surprisingly good and common in zerg battles as well. In WvWvW you don’t even need to learn to position yourself that well for cloak and dagger, because you can always trigger it using some poor forest animal, enemy structure wall, siege weapon etc. to gain stealth. WvWvW has much bigger map, consumables, better gear etc. These are all game changing features compared to the very limited conquest pvp mode.

That is why the game developers should have different balance for WvWvW and pvp.
The 4 s revealed revert + recent buffs to thief sword + signets have lead to huge influx of thieves in WvWvW. Sometimes it feels that every 3rd player is a thief. Welcome to Thief Wars 2!

PVE
thief:
1.traps suck big time
2.venoms have to small range for sharing
3.burst is meh
4.dps is far behind a warrior
5.mobility is NOT so very good without 15 in acrobatics
6.let’s say that the lowest hp/med armor combo compensates with stealth to stay alive, but the new “dont drop agro on stealth mechanic make things difficult”
7.almost NO boons, no team support except stealth res
8.blindness ineffective at bosses, also 1/2 duration of vulnerability&weakness
9.shared initiative system on all weapons

warrior:
1.banners 600 range: 2 super boons up for everyone in party !
2.invulnerability
3.top dps
4.highest hp/heavy armor
5.good condition remover (remove 1 condition on shout+ Shake It Off!=2 on 1 skill, Mending-remove 2 conditions then heal etc.)-contrary to “low condition removal” stated by a-net
6.good bursts
7.boons like 3 might stacks and fury for everyone in party
8.mobility via rush and other skills
9.switching weapon sets you get fresh skills

DanH.5879:

PVE
thief:
1.traps suck big time
2.venoms have to small range for sharing
3.burst is meh
4.dps is far behind a warrior
5.mobility is NOT so very good without 15 in acrobatics
6.let’s say that the lowest hp/med armor combo compensates with stealth to stay alive, but the new “dont drop agro on stealth mechanic make things difficult”
7.almost NO boons, no team support except stealth res
8.blindness ineffective at bosses, also 1/2 duration of vulnerability&weakness
9.shared initiative system on all weapons

warrior:
1.banners 600 range: 2 super boons up for everyone in party !
2.invulnerability
3.top dps
4.highest hp/heavy armor
5.good condition remover (remove 1 condition on shout+ Shake It Off!=2 on 1 skill, Mending-remove 2 conditions then heal etc.)-contrary to “low condition removal” stated by a-net
6.good bursts
7.boons like 3 might stacks and fury for everyone in party
8.mobility via rush and other skills
9.switching weapon sets you get fresh skills

Warriors have no Invulnerability on ANY skills. They can block direct damage for 4 seconds, every 90 secounds, but CC, pre-existing conditions, and new conditions still effect them.

3 and 5 controdict each other because you can only choose one of those and frankly warrior tank sucks which is why you see more heavy DPS builds

6 Again Do you want the burst or the tankiness

7 For great Justice is a great skill but it has it’s limitations, now with the buffs to signets you will probably get more bang for your buck packing them instead

8 Rush is a greatsword specific build.

9 Yes we get different skills as we switch to different weapons, Just like guardians, necromancers, mesmers, etc

Nearly everything you said is circumstantial and out of context
IF you want to play Supportive warriors such as investing heavily into banners or shouts you lose ALOT else where.

DanH.5879:

PVE
thief:
1.traps suck big time
2.venoms have to small range for sharing
3.burst is meh
4.dps is far behind a warrior
5.mobility is NOT so very good without 15 in acrobatics
6.let’s say that the lowest hp/med armor combo compensates with stealth to stay alive, but the new “dont drop agro on stealth mechanic make things difficult”
7.almost NO boons, no team support except stealth res
8.blindness ineffective at bosses, also 1/2 duration of vulnerability&weakness
9.shared initiative system on all weapons

Congrats on your achievement of reminding us just how pathetic the one-trick pony thief meta is right now. Go play a different build or go home, kiddo.

DanH.5879:

PVE
thief:
1.traps suck big time
2.venoms have to small range for sharing
3.burst is meh
4.dps is far behind a warrior
5.mobility is NOT so very good without 15 in acrobatics
6.let’s say that the lowest hp/med armor combo compensates with stealth to stay alive, but the new “dont drop agro on stealth mechanic make things difficult”
7.almost NO boons, no team support except stealth res
8.blindness ineffective at bosses, also 1/2 duration of vulnerability&weakness
9.shared initiative system on all weapons

warrior:
1.banners 600 range: 2 super boons up for everyone in party !
2.invulnerability
3.top dps
4.highest hp/heavy armor
5.good condition remover (remove 1 condition on shout+ Shake It Off!=2 on 1 skill, Mending-remove 2 conditions then heal etc.)-contrary to “low condition removal” stated by a-net
6.good bursts
7.boons like 3 might stacks and fury for everyone in party
8.mobility via rush and other skills
9.switching weapon sets you get fresh skills

This post is so insanely slanted it’s not even funny. I know you are being serious, but I can’t take you seriously.

Teamkiller.4315:

DanH.5879:

PVE
thief:
1.traps suck big time
2.venoms have to small range for sharing
3.burst is meh
4.dps is far behind a warrior
5.mobility is NOT so very good without 15 in acrobatics
6.let’s say that the lowest hp/med armor combo compensates with stealth to stay alive, but the new “dont drop agro on stealth mechanic make things difficult”
7.almost NO boons, no team support except stealth res
8.blindness ineffective at bosses, also 1/2 duration of vulnerability&weakness
9.shared initiative system on all weapons

warrior:
1.banners 600 range: 2 super boons up for everyone in party !
2.invulnerability
3.top dps
4.highest hp/heavy armor
5.good condition remover (remove 1 condition on shout+ Shake It Off!=2 on 1 skill, Mending-remove 2 conditions then heal etc.)-contrary to “low condition removal” stated by a-net
6.good bursts
7.boons like 3 might stacks and fury for everyone in party
8.mobility via rush and other skills
9.switching weapon sets you get fresh skills

This post is so insanely slanted it’s not even funny. I know you are being serious, but I can’t take you seriously.

Slanted or not, there’s definitely a reason thieves get turned down and warriors get demanded in PvE situations.

Dual.8953:

Teamkiller.4315:

DanH.5879:

PVE
thief:
1.traps suck big time
2.venoms have to small range for sharing
3.burst is meh
4.dps is far behind a warrior
5.mobility is NOT so very good without 15 in acrobatics
6.let’s say that the lowest hp/med armor combo compensates with stealth to stay alive, but the new “dont drop agro on stealth mechanic make things difficult”
7.almost NO boons, no team support except stealth res
8.blindness ineffective at bosses, also 1/2 duration of vulnerability&weakness
9.shared initiative system on all weapons

warrior:
1.banners 600 range: 2 super boons up for everyone in party !
2.invulnerability
3.top dps
4.highest hp/heavy armor
5.good condition remover (remove 1 condition on shout+ Shake It Off!=2 on 1 skill, Mending-remove 2 conditions then heal etc.)-contrary to “low condition removal” stated by a-net
6.good bursts
7.boons like 3 might stacks and fury for everyone in party
8.mobility via rush and other skills
9.switching weapon sets you get fresh skills

This post is so insanely slanted it’s not even funny. I know you are being serious, but I can’t take you seriously.

Slanted or not, there’s definitely a reason thieves get turned down and warriors get demanded in PvE situations.

That’s because they’re the best PvE class there is?

Teamkiller.4315:

Dual.8953:

Teamkiller.4315:

DanH.5879:

PVE
thief:
1.traps suck big time
2.venoms have to small range for sharing
3.burst is meh
4.dps is far behind a warrior
5.mobility is NOT so very good without 15 in acrobatics
6.let’s say that the lowest hp/med armor combo compensates with stealth to stay alive, but the new “dont drop agro on stealth mechanic make things difficult”
7.almost NO boons, no team support except stealth res
8.blindness ineffective at bosses, also 1/2 duration of vulnerability&weakness
9.shared initiative system on all weapons

warrior:
1.banners 600 range: 2 super boons up for everyone in party !
2.invulnerability
3.top dps
4.highest hp/heavy armor
5.good condition remover (remove 1 condition on shout+ Shake It Off!=2 on 1 skill, Mending-remove 2 conditions then heal etc.)-contrary to “low condition removal” stated by a-net
6.good bursts
7.boons like 3 might stacks and fury for everyone in party
8.mobility via rush and other skills
9.switching weapon sets you get fresh skills

This post is so insanely slanted it’s not even funny. I know you are being serious, but I can’t take you seriously.

Slanted or not, there’s definitely a reason thieves get turned down and warriors get demanded in PvE situations.

That’s because they’re the best PvE class there is?

Not just that. Thieves are turned down in favour of just about every other class but ranger. We are seen as having neither the dsp or survivability, and our support is considered niche at best.

Dual.8953:

Teamkiller.4315:

Dual.8953:

Teamkiller.4315:

DanH.5879:

PVE
thief:
1.traps suck big time
2.venoms have to small range for sharing
3.burst is meh
4.dps is far behind a warrior
5.mobility is NOT so very good without 15 in acrobatics
6.let’s say that the lowest hp/med armor combo compensates with stealth to stay alive, but the new “dont drop agro on stealth mechanic make things difficult”
7.almost NO boons, no team support except stealth res
8.blindness ineffective at bosses, also 1/2 duration of vulnerability&weakness
9.shared initiative system on all weapons

warrior:
1.banners 600 range: 2 super boons up for everyone in party !
2.invulnerability
3.top dps
4.highest hp/heavy armor
5.good condition remover (remove 1 condition on shout+ Shake It Off!=2 on 1 skill, Mending-remove 2 conditions then heal etc.)-contrary to “low condition removal” stated by a-net
6.good bursts
7.boons like 3 might stacks and fury for everyone in party
8.mobility via rush and other skills
9.switching weapon sets you get fresh skills

This post is so insanely slanted it’s not even funny. I know you are being serious, but I can’t take you seriously.

Slanted or not, there’s definitely a reason thieves get turned down and warriors get demanded in PvE situations.

That’s because they’re the best PvE class there is?

Not just that. Thieves are turned down in favour of just about every other class but ranger. We are seen as having neither the dsp or survivability, and our support is considered niche at best.

here here! i 2nd. :P

Travlane.5948:

Dual.8953:

Teamkiller.4315:

Dual.8953:

Teamkiller.4315:

DanH.5879:

PVE
thief:
1.traps suck big time
2.venoms have to small range for sharing
3.burst is meh
4.dps is far behind a warrior
5.mobility is NOT so very good without 15 in acrobatics
6.let’s say that the lowest hp/med armor combo compensates with stealth to stay alive, but the new “dont drop agro on stealth mechanic make things difficult”
7.almost NO boons, no team support except stealth res
8.blindness ineffective at bosses, also 1/2 duration of vulnerability&weakness
9.shared initiative system on all weapons

warrior:
1.banners 600 range: 2 super boons up for everyone in party !
2.invulnerability
3.top dps
4.highest hp/heavy armor
5.good condition remover (remove 1 condition on shout+ Shake It Off!=2 on 1 skill, Mending-remove 2 conditions then heal etc.)-contrary to “low condition removal” stated by a-net
6.good bursts
7.boons like 3 might stacks and fury for everyone in party
8.mobility via rush and other skills
9.switching weapon sets you get fresh skills

This post is so insanely slanted it’s not even funny. I know you are being serious, but I can’t take you seriously.

Slanted or not, there’s definitely a reason thieves get turned down and warriors get demanded in PvE situations.

That’s because they’re the best PvE class there is?

Not just that. Thieves are turned down in favour of just about every other class but ranger. We are seen as having neither the dsp or survivability, and our support is considered niche at best.

here here! i 2nd. :P

3rd.

As others have said, it’s mostly from WvW. In WvW most terribads run in full berserkers. Thieves are able to pull this off better than most (but are still terribad) because of stealth. So when a berserker thief jumps a berserker warrior in WvW, the Warrior is 3 shot. Every other class is effectively 2 shot. Instead of fixing the problem by actually getting toughness, they complain about it.

You’ll also find that the complains tend to manifest when other classes are nerfed. ‘You nerfed confusion so now you have to nerf X to be fair’ type of arguments.

The problems of the thief class in s/tPvP are the same for the class in WvW though. Look at thieves in zerg vs zerg combat for example. When someone ask’s what the Thief’s role in a zerg is they’ll say to blast finisher and finish people once downed. That’s it. Venomshare is laughable at best. As you mentioned, the class utility is limited to small group (PvE utility is actually quite good. Blind field alone is worth bringing a thief along for example) and the class’ survivability to actually kill someone once they’ve downed them is next to impossible unless you use a cooldown (shadowrefuge to take out a commander you downed? So you mean to tell me we’re there to kill 1 player every minute?).

This class could go with some minor burst nerfs in exchange for insane defensive buffs.

Things like:
1 second of endure pain when entering stealth.
1 second of stability when leaving stealth.
5 seconds of stability when using shadowstep.
Dancing Dagger gives protection or aegis.
X% of power is given to toughness.

Atherakhia.4086:

X% of power is given to toughness.

I like your other ideas. Given the current aggro system, however, I’d much rather have vitality instead.

Uruz Six.6594:

Atherakhia.4086:

X% of power is given to toughness.

I like your other ideas. Given the current aggro system, however, I’d much rather have vitality instead.

Well we have a vitality one already. don’t need multiples. Could also just have the other trait do both, but I don’t think any class has a single trait give vitality and toughness.

the dmg is already too low for a thief as is….well for the amount of defense/survivability they have anyway. nobody is 2 shot anymore….its super super super sssssssssuper rare….when it is…the thief that did it is usually dead within moments after….bc they have no utilities….no defense….everythign was used…..and they have 12k hp. anyone who is 2 shot is runner zerker gear which is risky. theres a reason you stopped seeing videos of thieves bursting people in 2 secs….(most of those were upscales or crappy gear or full zerkers) the rest survive or had skill/quick response times. burst does not exist on thief anymore….only mesmer…..2 skills (cnd to bs ) is not a burst….its a combo. :P big difference. and usually its for 10-11k total against a low low defense person. (if both crit)

Atherakhia.4086:

This class could go with some minor burst nerfs in exchange for insane defensive buffs.

Things like:
1 second of endure pain when entering stealth.
1 second of stability when leaving stealth.
5 seconds of stability when using shadowstep.
Dancing Dagger gives protection or aegis.
X% of power is given to toughness.

What you are asking is insanely too good. Stability is already considered as the best boon in WvWvW setting. Stability counters all that knockdown locks + stun etc. Now thief would have pretty much permanent stability with just using infiltrator’s strike + shadow return. And endure pain everytime entering the stealth. That is also too much. Warriors have 90 s cooldown on that skill for a very good reason.

in the meta the thief is the best glas canon killer!!!

To bad 99% of the meta builds are bunkers / balanced builds…. but no more glass canons.

Sure the Larcenous Strike now helps to deal with bunkers… but even without all the buffs most bunkers can win easy against thief.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Atherakhia.4086:

This class could go with some minor burst nerfs in exchange for insane defensive buffs.

Things like:
1 second of endure pain when entering stealth.
1 second of stability when leaving stealth.
5 seconds of stability when using shadowstep.
Dancing Dagger gives protection or aegis.
X% of power is given to toughness.

What you are asking is insanely too good. Stability is already considered as the best boon in WvWvW setting. Stability counters all that knockdown locks + stun etc. Now thief would have pretty much permanent stability with just using infiltrator’s strike + shadow return. And endure pain everytime entering the stealth. That is also too much. Warriors have 90 s cooldown on that skill for a very good reason.

Shadowstep is a skill on a 50 second cooldown. 5 seconds of stability will allow the skill to be used effectively as an offensive tool instead of primarily a defensive one. I was not advocating skills with different names using a similar mechanic as granting stability.

Endure pain for 1 second when entering stealth would do nothing but reduce the damage of directed attacks at the point of stealthing to 0. How many people have had rapid fire channel into them despite stealthing for example. It would resolve this problem.

Granting stability for 1 second when leaving stealth would also have limited real value. Instead, it would act as a way to catch stray AE’s knocking the thief down and out of stealth.