Guild Wars 2

Before thieves didn’t even have perma vigor and to get close to it we needed to spend a total of 30 trait points (10 in Acro and 20 in Trick). But they nerfed our vigor almost by half! So why then do mesmer have the ability to get perma vigor with just 5 trait points in Dueling? I always thought thieves were supposed to be the masters of mobility and dexterity but that just doesn’t seem to be the case anymore.

Well. Welcome to Guild wars 2. thief has only gotten nerf since day one, meanwhile other classes has been stale or getting small buff leaving thief so far behind that you are playing with handicap.

Guardians can also get perma-Vigor with a laughably small investment. I guess that maybe they don’t care about Vigor-on-crit.

And if that’s the case, can thieves have it? :P

2x Sigil of Energy, Rune of adventure …. halllo permavade; again XD

edit: did someone mention that warri with there new buffed evade trait , vigor on stances, succesful F1 skill refresh , make 1.5k till 2k on every dodge roll instantly …. additional to their cc, condispam, high dmg

Don’t forget that elementalists also have vigor on crit as a 10 point trait.

That makes 3 classes with permavigor for small investments. Those other classes have access to a fair number of other defensive boons. But of course the thief had too much.

Arkantos.7460:

2x Sigil of Energy, Rune of adventure …. halllo permavade; again XD

edit: did someone mention that warri with there new buffed evade trait , vigor on stances, succesful F1 skill refresh , make 1.5k till 2k on every dodge roll instantly …. additional to their cc, condispam, high dmg

I know that perma evade is still somewhat available to thief but look at how much we have to invest (Sigils, runes, 30 trait points) while other classes just need 5-10 trait points and can add a sigil of energy and be good to go.

Azawrath.7304:

I know that perma evade is still somewhat available to thief but look at how much we have to invest (Sigils, runes, 30 trait points) while other classes just need 5-10 trait points and can add a sigil of energy and be good to go.

Some other class can have access to perma vigor in some manner. But perma vigor is not perma evade.
Real problem is perma evade.

Kicast.1459:

Azawrath.7304:

I know that perma evade is still somewhat available to thief but look at how much we have to invest (Sigils, runes, 30 trait points) while other classes just need 5-10 trait points and can add a sigil of energy and be good to go.

Some other class can have access to perma vigor in some manner. But perma vigor is not perma evade.
Real problem is perma evade.

Can you explain? Imo perma vigor does mean perma evade. You need a high endurance rate to evade when you want to.

Azawrath.7304:

Can you explain? Imo perma vigor does mean perma evade.

Not at all. Perma vigor helps you gain quicly endurance to dodge better. By no way it is sufficient to get perma evade

Azawrath.7304:

You need a high endurance rate to evade when you want to.

It is needed indeed but not sufficient. It is the mix of high vigor + skills that gives very high rate on evade. It is (was at least before december patch) the case on some thieves build where perma vigor + sword skills + cheesy gain of initiative + some traits to use less endurance on dodge that made possible to evade an awesome number of attacks on a very very long time.

With Vigorous Renewal and Bountiful theft with 30% boom duration you can still easily upkeep 100% vigor duration.

We get Feline Grace, the trait that refunds 15% of the endurance bar after we roll. Paired with any Vigor, it makes us very dodgy.

Viking Jorun.5413:

With Vigorous Renewal and Bountiful theft with 30% boom duration you can still easily upkeep 100% vigor duration.

Vigorous Renewal? Are you playing the same game? Maybe you should try playing a thief before commenting here.

There’s no perma vigor for thieves, 30 points in Acrobatics, 20 points in Trickery plus two traits and wasting your heals and steals for 75% vigor uptime do not fit with ‘easily upkeep 100% vigor’.

Arkantos.7460:

did someone mention that warri with there new buffed evade trait , vigor on stances, succesful F1 skill refresh , make 1.5k till 2k on every dodge roll instantly …. additional to their cc, condispam, high dmg

0/10. Didn’t even try. 30/30/30/30/30 doesn’t exist my friend.

Thieves have Feline Grace plus an awful lot of skills that double as dodging (withdraw, death blossom, LS, SB #3) , having a perma-vigor trait would make that ridiculous. That doesn’t make fair the ridiculously cheap investment for Guardians & Mesmers though.

mesmer is Anet’s golden baby. if you think about it, guardian and mesmer are the only classes “fully” designed. Every other class just feels rushed and unpolished.

it’s because thieves were too hard to catch, so ANET made them easier to catch, but to compensate, made hard to catch easier to attain so now they’re even harder to catch.

frans.8092:

There’s no perma vigor for thieves

If only there was a way to slash your Mug cooldown and further increase boon duration… nah, not possible – right?

Docherty.8372:

frans.8092:

There’s no perma vigor for thieves

If only there was a way to slash your Mug cooldown and further increase boon duration… nah, not possible – right?

Your saying using up 60 trait points and blowing heal and steal on cooldown to maximise Vigor uptime is a good strategy?

frans.8092:

Docherty.8372:

frans.8092:

There’s no perma vigor for thieves

If only there was a way to slash your Mug cooldown and further increase boon duration… nah, not possible – right?

Your saying using up 60 trait points and blowing heal and steal on cooldown to maximise Vigor uptime is a good strategy?

You don’t?

Oh well, I can honestly say: I could not care less. Perma-Vigor is a thing, contrary to what you said, each Thief will just have to decide whether it’s worth it for themselves (personal hint: double the standard evasion-time is a good thing).

frans.8092:

Viking Jorun.5413:

With Vigorous Renewal and Bountiful theft with 30% boom duration you can still easily upkeep 100% vigor duration.

Vigorous Renewal? Are you playing the same game? Maybe you should try playing a thief before commenting here.

There’s no perma vigor for thieves, 30 points in Acrobatics, 20 points in Trickery plus two traits and wasting your heals and steals for 75% vigor uptime do not fit with ‘easily upkeep 100% vigor’.

Try some boon duration. I have 45% and can upkeep 100% vigor uptime while in combat. Maybe if you’d take the time to learn your class mechanics and how they interact you’d be more open to the fact that thieves don’t actually suck as bad as people make them out to be. Please level your thief to 80 before trying to devalue my comments with empty claims.

Viking Jorun.5413:

frans.8092:

Viking Jorun.5413:

With Vigorous Renewal and Bountiful theft with 30% boom duration you can still easily upkeep 100% vigor duration.

Vigorous Renewal? Are you playing the same game? Maybe you should try playing a thief before commenting here.

There’s no perma vigor for thieves, 30 points in Acrobatics, 20 points in Trickery plus two traits and wasting your heals and steals for 75% vigor uptime do not fit with ‘easily upkeep 100% vigor’.

Try some boon duration. I have 45% and can upkeep 100% vigor uptime while in combat. Maybe if you’d take the time to learn your class mechanics and how they interact you’d be more open to the fact that thieves don’t actually suck as bad as people make them out to be. Please level your thief to 80 before trying to devalue my comments with empty claims.

Even with 45% you can’t get back up to the pre nerf time of vigorous recovery. To compensate you’ve had to go deep into boon duration and pick up 2 separate traits to increase your suvivability. A-net just changed initiative regeneration to supposedly not lock us into initiative traits and at the same time locked you into 2 other traits + 60 trait points (if you are x/x/x/30/30 + travelers runes like I think). The point is that there is a huge double standard as it pertains to the uptime of defensive boon/capabilities and anet in fact accomplished the opposite of increasing build diversity with this last patch.

Maugetarr.6823:

Viking Jorun.5413:

frans.8092:

Viking Jorun.5413:

With Vigorous Renewal and Bountiful theft with 30% boom duration you can still easily upkeep 100% vigor duration.

Vigorous Renewal? Are you playing the same game? Maybe you should try playing a thief before commenting here.

There’s no perma vigor for thieves, 30 points in Acrobatics, 20 points in Trickery plus two traits and wasting your heals and steals for 75% vigor uptime do not fit with ‘easily upkeep 100% vigor’.

Try some boon duration. I have 45% and can upkeep 100% vigor uptime while in combat. Maybe if you’d take the time to learn your class mechanics and how they interact you’d be more open to the fact that thieves don’t actually suck as bad as people make them out to be. Please level your thief to 80 before trying to devalue my comments with empty claims.

Even with 45% you can’t get back up to the pre nerf time of vigorous recovery. To compensate you’ve had to go deep into boon duration and pick up 2 separate traits to increase your suvivability. A-net just changed initiative regeneration to supposedly not lock us into initiative traits and at the same time locked you into 2 other traits + 60 trait points (if you are x/x/x/30/30 + travelers runes like I think). The point is that there is a huge double standard as it pertains to the uptime of defensive boon/capabilities and anet in fact accomplished the opposite of increasing build diversity with this last patch.

Fortunately I’ve been running 10/0/0/30/30 for quite some time and have always carried both traits. The nerf to vigor was only a minor inconvenience to my ability to dodge constantly. Obviously I don’t focus on vigor upkeep in a fight – that’s not something you need to be focusing on. However, in theory it’s entirely possible to keep your vigor on at all times while in combat (or out of combat stealing every 20s on critters and using withdraw for mobility every time it comes off cooldown). That’s my point. I never said that it was possible for any thief to have 100% vigor uptime in all situations.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Maugetarr.6823:

Viking Jorun.5413:

frans.8092:

Viking Jorun.5413:

With Vigorous Renewal and Bountiful theft with 30% boom duration you can still easily upkeep 100% vigor duration.

Vigorous Renewal? Are you playing the same game? Maybe you should try playing a thief before commenting here.

There’s no perma vigor for thieves, 30 points in Acrobatics, 20 points in Trickery plus two traits and wasting your heals and steals for 75% vigor uptime do not fit with ‘easily upkeep 100% vigor’.

Try some boon duration. I have 45% and can upkeep 100% vigor uptime while in combat. Maybe if you’d take the time to learn your class mechanics and how they interact you’d be more open to the fact that thieves don’t actually suck as bad as people make them out to be. Please level your thief to 80 before trying to devalue my comments with empty claims.

Even with 45% you can’t get back up to the pre nerf time of vigorous recovery. To compensate you’ve had to go deep into boon duration and pick up 2 separate traits to increase your suvivability. A-net just changed initiative regeneration to supposedly not lock us into initiative traits and at the same time locked you into 2 other traits + 60 trait points (if you are x/x/x/30/30 + travelers runes like I think). The point is that there is a huge double standard as it pertains to the uptime of defensive boon/capabilities and anet in fact accomplished the opposite of increasing build diversity with this last patch.

Fortunately I’ve been running 10/0/0/30/30 for quite some time and have always carried both traits. The nerf to vigor was only a minor inconvenience to my ability to dodge constantly. Obviously I don’t focus on vigor upkeep in a fight – that’s not something you need to be focusing on. However, in theory it’s entirely possible to keep your vigor on at all times while in combat (or out of combat stealing every 20s on critters and using withdraw for mobility every time it comes off cooldown). That’s my point. I never said that it was possible for any thief to have 100% vigor uptime in all situations.

Fair enough. It just seems like in their attempt to nerf sword evasion they have significantly nerfed the capabilities of other builds. As a D/D player with no on-weapon shadowsteps or blinds, standard dodges are pretty integral to the survivability. Maybe if they recreated hard to catch with something that gave you X endurance on crit with an ICD to promote aggressive play since they said they didn’t want thieves simply dodging over and over not actively engaging in the fight. I’m not saying vigor upkeep should be a goal, but for other classes it’s not even an afterthought.

Simple answer would be that they get Sigil of Energy confused with Vigor.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Fortunately I’ve been running 10/0/0/30/30 for quite some time and have always carried both traits.

+ runes to get to the +45% boon duration.

And you call that an easy upleep of vigor?

Docherty.8372:

Perma-Vigor is a thing, contrary to what you said, …

It’s hardly an easy thing, which is what he said.

frans.8092:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Fortunately I’ve been running 10/0/0/30/30 for quite some time and have always carried both traits.

+ runes to get to the +45% boon duration.

And you call that an easy upleep of vigor?

Docherty.8372:

Perma-Vigor is a thing, contrary to what you said, …

It’s hardly an easy thing, which is what he said.

30 in Acrobatics + Traveler runes. Yes.

But with just +45% boon duration from acrobatics and traveler runes you will not get 100% vigor up, you need at least 20 in trickery for Bountifull Theft, and possibly 30 to get Steal cooldown down

frans.8092:

But with just +45% boon duration from acrobatics and traveler runes you will not get 100% vigor up, you need at least 20 in trickery for Bountifull Theft, and possibly 30 to get Steal cooldown down

Yep.

Ok, that’s not what I’d call ‘’easily upkeep’’

Firstly: there are alternatives to Traveller runes for the +15% if you’re not keen on dropping 20g – Water Runes (25s last I looked) and Monk Runes (AC dungeon vendor) do the same job – true boon-fiends can get two of each for a cool +45%, before traits or food (Omnom cake for +20%).

Secondly: 30 in Acro is not necessary unless you want it, 15 points and you can still manage +80% with runes & food, +65% without a single point in Acro – that’s 18-16.5 seconds of Vigor every 21.5 second steal.

Thirdly: 30 Trickery (for Sleight of Hand+Bountiful Theft+Thrill of the Crime), while a bit painful for sword Thieves who don’t do a lick of condition damage, is not a waste – it takes your Mug down to 21.5 seconds from 35 – which steals two boons, is an interrupt, grants initiative, shadowsteps, gives you an item (which are all great), heals you, damages them, poisons them, grants Fury Swiftness Vigor (don’t forget perma-Swiftness and a very high Fury uptime, it’s not all for the Vigor).

It’s very simple in practice: trait&gear up, press F1.

Docherty.8372:

Firstly: there are alternatives to Traveller runes for the +15% if you’re not keen on dropping 20g – Water Runes (25s last I looked) and Monk Runes (AC dungeon vendor) do the same job – true boon-fiends can get two of each for a cool +45%, before traits or food (Omnom cake for +20%).

Secondly: 30 in Acro is not necessary unless you want it, 15 points and you can still manage +80% with runes & food, +65% without a single point in Acro – that’s 18-16.5 seconds of Vigor every 21.5 second steal.

Thirdly: 30 Trickery (for Sleight of Hand+Bountiful Theft+Thrill of the Crime), while a bit painful for sword Thieves who don’t do a lick of condition damage, is not a waste – it takes your Mug down to 21.5 seconds from 35 – which steals two boons, is an interrupt, grants initiative, shadowsteps, gives you an item (which are all great), heals you, damages them, poisons them, grants Fury Swiftness Vigor (don’t forget perma-Swiftness and a very high Fury uptime, it’s not all for the Vigor).

It’s very simple in practice: trait&gear up, press F1.

I can’t +1 this enough. Thank you for showing the math here and explaining why everything is how it is.

Again, that’s eliminating builds that used the one trait to gain some survivability. Mesmers and guards have traits in 5 point positions that grant them 5 seconds of vigor on crit every 5 seconds. Eles have it in a 10 point position. This nerf forces people into investing in certain gear and traitlines that they wouldn’t have had to before. It limits build diversity.

Mesmer got to keep their cheap trait because that’s the #1 means of clone creation. Many clone generating mesmers use evades offensively to create clones for shattering or stacking bleeds. With out the perma vigor, clone creation would become unsustainable and would create a huge problem with balancing the class. I imagine mesmers were allowed to keep this cheap investment for that reason, whereas classes that used it for near perma evading (thief, engineer) got their versions nerfed.

That’s plausible enough (although frankly I think it’s a silly design), but doesn’t really explain Guardians. My Guardian can block/aegis/evade all day erry day in full ‘zerkers, largely because of Vigor-on-crit from Vigorous Precision. Which is not only a stupid name for a trait, but it only costs 5 points down a line that I’d want to take anyway.

I’d sure like to hear the reasoning for that one.

It’s true that Guardians and Mesmers get much, much easier access to Vigor, but they can’t do as much with a dodge as a Thief can.

Guardians can heal on dodge, but it scales almost entirely with their healing power and has very, very little base healing, but to get vigor, they need crits. Ever hear of a heal/crit build? Also, their dodges cost 50 end, not 35.

Mesmers can make a clone on a dodge, and I’ll admit, this is pretty strong, but Thieves can cure cripple/weakness, caltrop, and gain might on a dodge, and again, their dodges don’t get 15 end returned.

Also, I want to point out that even though these two classes have super easy access to vigor, and you might feel slighted by this, please keep in mind that these are the only two classes that do not have access to 25% movement speed via traits or signets. So, the grass isn’t always greener, is what I’m trying to say. Where your 25% movement speed Signet is, we’ve got a condition damage signet, and much much worse access to Swiftness.

So…as a Guardian, regarding our vigor trait, …trade you? On behalf of the Guardian community, we appreciate your time and look forward to doing business with you.

Ludus Rex.1562:

So…as a Guardian, regarding our vigor trait, …trade you? On behalf of the Guardian community, we appreciate your time and look forward to doing business with you.

Sure, that’s fair. Let’s do a straight-up Adept swap, to keep the math easy. Give us Vigorous Precision, and you can have Expeditious Dodger. Hell, I’ll even give you FOUR second of Swiftness on evade instead of two. Sold Tyrian!

EDIT: in all seriousness, Guardians are supposed to be mobility-limited. You can get perma-Swiftness uptime with Shouts/staff anyway.

Interceptor.2653:

Ludus Rex.1562:

So…as a Guardian, regarding our vigor trait, …trade you? On behalf of the Guardian community, we appreciate your time and look forward to doing business with you.

Sure, that’s fair. Let’s do a straight-up Adept swap, to keep the math easy. Give us Vigorous Precision, and you can have Expeditious Dodger. Hell, I’ll even give you FOUR second of Swiftness on evade instead of two. Sold Tyrian!

EDIT: in all seriousness, Guardians are supposed to be mobility-limited. You can get perma-Swiftness uptime with Shouts/staff anyway.

So you’re saying that you can get mobility with a Signet, but Guardians should have to spend a utility trait on the shout (like Thieves for signet, making us even at this point), but then also spend traits to reduce shout time, grab boon duration, give up a weapon set that can give us a symbol that we need to stand on, essentially charging up our move speed like a battery?

Then you’re saying it’s not fair that Guardians should have easier access to vigor? Which is it? Should there be relative equality, or should certain classes do things 100x easier because they’re designed for it? Because if you want to take that stance, then my argument is that Vigor helps you survive, and survivalist abilities are the forte of the Guardian. Thieves should be squishy, glassy, and easy to pop if they don’t burst you out. Here’s the inverse version of what I heard you say:

Interceptor.2653:

EDIT: in all seriousness, Thieves are supposed to be survival-limited. You can get perma-Vigor uptime with Traits/Boon duration anyway.

Sounds silly, right? I don’t really subscribe to that train of thought, though.

I honestly think that each class should be able to spec/trait for what role they want to fill. Obviously they won’t all fill it exactly as well, or exactly the same way, but some of these disparities are crazy.

Ludus Rex.1562:

So you’re saying that you can get mobility with a Signet, but Guardians should have to spend a utility trait on the shout (like Thieves for signet, making us even at this point), but then also spend traits to reduce shout time, grab boon duration, give up a weapon set that can give us a symbol that we need to stand on, essentially charging up our move speed like a battery?

Yes, because guardians were specifically designed to have limited mobility. Like, that was stated straight up front.

But it’s worth noting that this is technically better speed anyway, because Swiftness is +33% and the Signet (which is otherwise useless) is only 25%. Retreat is Swiftness and Aegis, never mind Save Yourselves (which is less Swiftness, but total lollerskates). SoS can… blind people in an AOE, and in exchange will lose the speed boost during the recharge time. Someone call a press conference.

Then you’re saying it’s not fair that Guardians should have easier access to vigor? Which is it? Should there be relative equality, or should certain classes do things 100x easier because they’re designed for it? Because if you want to take that stance, then my argument is that Vigor helps you survive, and survivalist abilities are the forte of the Guardian. Thieves should be squishy, glassy, and easy to pop if they don’t burst you out. Here’s the inverse version of what I heard you say:

Interceptor.2653:

EDIT: in all seriousness, Thieves are supposed to be survival-limited. You can get perma-Vigor uptime with Traits/Boon duration anyway.

Sounds silly, right? I don’t really subscribe to that train of thought, though.

Thieves are already “survival-limited”. Who is worse off than the Thief, defensively? No access to Protection, Stability is on a channeled Elite, no blocks, lowest health pool in the game, middling medium AR, no Toughness/Armor boosting traits whatsoever. A Guardian in her underwear has better damage mitigation than a Thief.

Evade is basically what we’ve got, and that’s it. We don’t even get augmented evades for free: you need to spend 15 points in a line that may or may not have anything to do with the rest of your build.

I’m still just having trouble wrapping my head around your obscenely biased stance.

I feel like I’m saying that more classes should have access to more options, then they should be able to build accordingly.

And I feel like you’re countering with: “Who CARES that the other guy can’t do that? They shouldn’t be able to! But I deserve ALL the toys!”

…maybe we should agree to all just hate Warriors, who have super easy access to everything. Lucky stiffs.

I think the point he is trying to get across is that with our distinct lack of /limited access to other defensive boons, vigor should be where we shine, but we don’t. Feline grace is good. It provides for 1 more initial dodge, but after that it is slower than perma vigor because it is cutting the time in between dodges by 30% instead of the 50% provided by vigor. The devs said they were trying to increase the sustain of thieves, but simultaneously nerfed the individual traits that offer sustain. Thieves really only beat other classes out in terms of dodging when feline grace is combined with vigor because then the remaining 35 needed to dodge is sped up. Maybe it shouldn’t be an trait, but a thief speccing 20 into acrobatics should be able to have a high uptime on vigor. Maybe instead of vigor they could rework quick recovery to gain X endurance on crit with an ICD of 1 second so it rewards actively staying in combat/keeping up pressure.

P.S. You guys keep forgetting about eles with a perma vigor trait in the same line as evasive arcana which is a significant benefit.

Ludus Rex.1562:

And I feel like you’re countering with: “Who CARES that the other guy can’t do that? They shouldn’t be able to! But I deserve ALL the toys!”

I’m not saying anything like that, so kindly don’t put it in quotation marks.

Thieves have next to nothing for damage mitigation: it’s a fact. The one thing we DO have — evasion — has really awkward access to Vigor, that other classes don’t need to put up with. ANet has said that they don’t like perma-Vigor. OK, that’s fair. So why do three classes still have it? Surely they didn’t just forget.

Maugetarr.6823:

Thieves really only beat other classes out in terms of dodging when feline grace is combined with vigor because then the remaining 35 needed to dodge is sped up.

And Feline Grace doesn’t even do what some people think it does; it doesn’t reduce the cost of evading, it just refunds 15 endurance at the end. That might seem pedantic, but it’s the difference between being able to evade with 35 endurance or 50 endurance; spoilers, you still have to wait until you hit 50. So all Acrobatics Thieves basically live within the 15-100% margin, and you don’t actually get an “extra” third evade from full until 3 seconds after you roll the first time. Even if you spam the dodge key, you are still wide open for 1.5 seconds while you recharge.

P.S. You guys keep forgetting about eles with a perma vigor trait in the same line as evasive arcana which is a significant benefit.

Well, I didn’t forget, I just can speak to Guardians in particular since I actually play one. And at least Elementalists actually have to spend an Adept/Master trait in order to get the benefit; Guardians barely have any opportunity cost whatsoever.

Before, 15 points in Acro was a no-brainer – now, it’s still a no-brainer. Yes, it is true – if you want the best roll-recharge in the game you’ll need to sacrifice some front-end firepower, the meta changed slightly – the value of the boon-stacking survival Thief has increased, while the stock of the front-loaded gank-merchant has decreased (I repeat, slightly).

No point going on about other classes, calling their 5 seconds on-crit ‘perma-vigor’, because in practical terms, without heavy investment in both boon duration and precision they will be suffering significant downtime – sometimes people dodge, sometimes attacking is unwise… 2-3 seconds delay (normal with no boon duration) in re-upping your Vigor via crit is 40-60% downtime.

And they don’t have Feline Grace – so unless you’re ready to give that away, leave them out of it.

Everyone approves of having cake, few volunteer to harvest the wheat and mill the flour – I don’t enjoy being smacked around with the nerf-bat any more than y’all, but Vigorous Renewal, like IR, always had a whiff of too-good-to-be-true about it – now it’s no longer ‘enjoy it while it lasts’, but ‘those were the good old days’.