Guild Wars 2

After the feature patch the anti-thief QQ will go through the roof, you will remember the current situation as “the peaceful old days”.

Looking at the first few glimpses of the changes, especially the sigil changes I come to belive that the changes to crit damage will be more that made up for by more controlled and more frequent crits (this of course affects wvw spvp only).
For example the superior sigil of intelligence will provide 3 guaranteed crit after swaping weapons, this will effectively ensure that CnD BS and the next HS will 100% crit which will allow you to run executioner on crit d/d builds. Damge will go through the roof, if you build like that. No more hope for a lucky crit streak or run if you hit it will be guaranteed to hurt. (It will be even worse for warriors they will crit ALL their hard hitting skills if the do it right).

The changes from on crit to on hit for manny sigil effects will make a lot of “tricky” stuff possible you will be able to calculate the proc effects into your gameplay since they will be reliablely occur on your 1st or 2nd hit, this will be really fun. It will drive your opponents insane if you do that right.

A lot of new builds will show up that people will have no clue about how to deal with, stealth support thief inc, FINALLY. Condi thieves will be insanely strong, start thinking about the changes to stuff like the Balthazar Runes…

Like with the initiative changes thieves will florish and profit, like then the “thief community” does not get it and starts complaining, like then I tell you: wait and see it will be awesome and thieves will be hated even more.

Maybe everyone was so shocked at the -50% DAMAGE WHILE STEALTHED trait that they just didn’t.

My body is prepared ;D.

But honestly I think people are underestimating the level of QQ these new traits could get. If there isn’t a QQ thread on reveal training or RoS by the Friday after the patch I will un-install the game

…….then sit around for 3-5 hours re-installing the game because that was dumb. -_-

Im not so sure, since the crit nerf will make x/30/30/x/x hidden killer builds a lot less appealing, and swap sigils only work in combat. I think people might start QQing more about other classes like Mesmer.

roamzero.9486:

Im not so sure, since the crit nerf will make x/30/30/x/x hidden killer builds a lot less appealing, and swap sigils only work in combat. I think people might start QQing more about other classes like Mesmer.

We might have a 10% less damage but we are getting better runes and sigils. We dont know 100% how all this will play out, if we combo runes/sigils correctly we might only end up getting a total of 5% less damage.

So I am going to wait to see.

Or you could now get an Elementalist and laugh at the thief desperately trying to crit you.

Axelwarrior.9084:

Or you could now get an Elementalist and laugh at the thief desperately trying to crit you.

Yeah… not being able to be crit is the biggest and most powerestistesestttssss ever for pvp and wvw.

Will make bunk eles really good against power/crit builds.

Faux.1937:

Axelwarrior.9084:

Or you could now get an Elementalist and laugh at the thief desperately trying to crit you.

Yeah… not being able to be crit is the biggest and most powerestistesestttssss ever for pvp and wvw.

Will make bunk eles really good against power/crit builds.

Depends whether you get the drop on them, since you have to be in earth attunement to get that immunity. A lot of ele’s in WvW run around in air for the movement speed buffs/skills making them gankable, and not changing attunement in a tPvP group fight for fear of the thief wandering around is almost a nerf in itself.

It’s def gonna be a problem 1v1 if you’re using dagger, but they can’t heal in earth so they’ll have to switch eventually, giving you 9 (ish) seconds to crit them. Time your basilisk burst when they switch out of earth and it should be ok ^^

Edit: But yeah, people are gonna hate us for a while, but it’s good for things to be shaken up given how predictable most thieves seem to be. I just wish the new acro grandmaster trait was a little more…. useful. Can’t see a reason to replace assassin’s reward atm.

I agree with OP and find it funny that we have posts on the front page complaining how ANet hates thieves and they are getting nerfed again. Some people just cannot see bigger picture it seems.

As for new anti-crit elementalists lot of people are still planning to run 30 water / 30 arcana build as they consider them superior in a lot of scenarios (esp. in WvW) and even if they will be running that trait they are lot less effective when they stay in one attument. It will make them more annoying, but lets be honest – thieves are annoying to elementalist since the dawn of time . sPvP bunker builds can get really nasty, but we will see.

Interesting. What are your prognostications concerning the continued spinning of the earth, death, and taxes?

But on a more serious note, the thief QQ will never stop. I’ve seen a completely serious QQ post for almost every single thief skill (I think headshot and throw gunk are the only ones I haven’t seen a QQ topic about) with droves of inexperienced players adding their (mostly worthless) 2 cents.

Remember when IS was an instant cast stunbreaker, and you could use it the moment PW was over to avoid all damage? Yeah, somehow PW is more broken now then back then – people have forgotten than you can just walk out of the last few swings I guess.

I’ve seen QQ about stolen items(Remember the one about how ridiculously OP whirling axe was?), stealth in general, evades, teleports, damage… you name it, thief is broken at it. Poor condition removal, no protection, no stability (until the patch! lawl) and lowest base HP pool are all meaningless to the uber-broken thief who can kill everything and anything.

Heck, some Rune sets (cough Lyssa cough) are broken just because they’re associated with thief!

Zacchary.6183:

Maybe everyone was so shocked at the -50% DAMAGE WHILE STEALTHED trait that they just didn’t.

Except it would replace shadow’s rejuvenation but anti-thief protestors dun care. They see a thief toy and immediately set out to smash it.

I disagree.

I don’t see any of the Sigils making up for the ¬ 20% loss in Critical Damage we’re experiencing. I know this is a universal change but one that hits Thieves and Warriors harder than most since we could actually pull off near full Berserker in WvW.

The Rune and Sigil changes won’t make up for that. Runes of Strength for example are getting a mere 7% damage increase while under the effect of Might (up from 5%). Other Runes will follow suit and I doubt they’ll get anywhere close to compensating for the loss in Critical Damage.

Sigils are a little harder to predict but here too I don’t see a fundamental shift taking place since they affect all classes equally.

The most disturbing trend however is that Condition spam seems to have been reduced in no tangible way. I don’t see anything that leaves me to conclude Conditions builds are going to be toned down in any way.

Even Rare Veggie Pizza, the food that is 400% over budget, is escaping unscathed.

evilapprentice.6379:

I’ve seen QQ about stolen items(Remember the one about how ridiculously OP whirling axe was?), stealth in general, evades, teleports, damage… you name it, thief is broken at it. Poor condition removal, no protection, no stability (until the patch! lawl) and lowest base HP pool are all meaningless to the uber-broken thief who can kill everything and anything.

Yeah, ton of people are QQing about thieves, but when you look for those “what professions are giving you troubles” topics on different subforums you see quite a few posters saying they are eating thieves for breakfast (warriors, engineers, necromancers, etc).

Does. Not. Compute.

EDIT (so I won’t multipost):

Dee Jay.2460:

Sigils are a little harder to predict but here too I don’t see a fundamental shift taking place since they affect all classes equally.

Having 100% crit chance on CnD/BS/HS will be a lot stronger than having those crits on rangers, SD engineers and some others.

Some professions doesn’t have several very strong attacks and/or cannot afford running around in zerker gear so I don’t think it will affect everyone the same way.

kubetz.3058:

evilapprentice.6379:

I’ve seen QQ about stolen items(Remember the one about how ridiculously OP whirling axe was?), stealth in general, evades, teleports, damage… you name it, thief is broken at it. Poor condition removal, no protection, no stability (until the patch! lawl) and lowest base HP pool are all meaningless to the uber-broken thief who can kill everything and anything.

Yeah, ton of people are QQing about thieves, but when you look for those “what professions are giving you troubles” topics on different subforums you see quite a few posters saying they are eating thieves for breakfast (warriors, engineers, necromancers, etc).

Does. Not. Compute.

I have no doubt that both are happening.

Thieves don’t have the tools to run a tanky condition spec, or a more balanced sustain spec – they (Mostly) run straight up GC because that’s how the class is built. GC’s can win (or lose) a fight based on a very small number of decisions, so I think it’d be common to see alot of people kittening they lost to a thief (who didn’t make any mistakes) and alot of people claiming they own thieves (those who make, you know, 1 or 2 mistakes). The problem is with the losing players refusing to try to learn anything, for the most part.

evilapprentice.6379:

The problem is with the losing players refusing to try to learn anything, for the most part.

Agree. Also losing players are actively QQing while winning players are not going to write posts how profession XYZ is so easy to kill and should be buffed.

BTW: I responded to your previous post by editing my post above so I won’t spam too much.

Dee Jay.2460:

I disagree.

I don’t see any of the Sigils making up for the ¬ 20% loss in Critical Damage we’re experiencing. I know this is a universal change but one that hits Thieves and Warriors harder than most since we could actually pull off near full Berserker in WvW.

The Rune and Sigil changes won’t make up for that. Runes of Strength for example are getting a mere 7% damage increase while under the effect of Might (up from 5%). Other Runes will follow suit and I doubt they’ll get anywhere close to compensating for the loss in Critical Damage.

Sigils are a little harder to predict but here too I don’t see a fundamental shift taking place since they affect all classes equally.

The most disturbing trend however is that Condition spam seems to have been reduced in no tangible way. I don’t see anything that leaves me to conclude Conditions builds are going to be toned down in any way.

Even Rare Veggie Pizza, the food that is 400% over budget, is escaping unscathed.

We both can generously share our disagreement with eachother, but that still means I am right and you are wrong.

Warrior and thief damage at the moment is pure overkill if you get a lucky crit streak, and that sums up current problems.
A reduction of the damage on crits and an increased control over when the crits happen (along with the associated on crit effects) will make the damage more focused and much more deadly in player versus player combat.
The deadliest thief build I could come up with in wvw uses “only” 63% bonus crit damage at the moment (that is without food).
Damage is not the problem at all we will still have more than enough.

Elementalists deserve better defense options, putting those into earth fits the idea of that attunement and honestly the longer they stay in earth the better (haha).

>>The Rune and Sigil changes won’t make up for that. Runes of Strength for example are getting a mere 7% damage increase while under the effect of Might (up from 5%). Other Runes will follow suit and I doubt they’ll get anywhere close to compensating for the loss in Critical Damage.

This is understating the other changes to the runes.

You will also get +45 percent increase to might duration. If one goes the acrobatics line this will mean a 75 percent increase to might duration. (granted some were getting more might by mixing and maxxing rune sets but they were sacrificing the higher steps on the rune to do so)

Every stealth will give 2 stacks of might for 26 seconds. Every weapon swap to a Sigil of battle, which can be done every 10 seconds will add 3 stacks of might for 35 seconds. Build might and couple it with a sigil of Intel or a faster proccing damage sigil like sigil of air and i do not think you will be suffering a lot damage output wise.

All of that extra might will also be helping to tick away damage condition wise that a zerker is not specced fro. You can all but double the secondary effects of conditions like a bleed or poison per tick.

I don’t get how it’s a prediction that there will be more QQ’ing. Of course there will be more QQ’ing, they forgot to implement the feature where you walk up to the thief and press F to loot them, you will still have to use a combination of other buttons post-patch to get to loot them.

Now a bit more serious note…
Stealth didn’t get it’s face beaten with a nerf bat – the same QQ’s will remain.
Evades didn’t get it’s face beaten with a nerf bat – the same QQ’s will remain.
Healing didn’t get it’s face beaten with a nerf bat – the same QQ’s will remain.
Backstab didn’t get it’s face beaten with a nerf bat – the same QQ’s will remain.
Damage didn’t get it’s face beaten with a nerf bat – the same QQ’s will remain.
Ergo in the eyes of the QQ’ers, we’re still OP, QQ’ing will remain at the very least on the same level as it does now.

Crit damage nerf? (lets ignore how it will hit us more than other classes and think for a second in the shoes of QQ’ers) TEEF STILL OP. YOU WHINE AND QQ PLAYING AN OP CLASS… L2P NOOBS

Now the patch does bring:
“-50% DAMAGE WHILE STEALTHED” – Wow too much benefits from stealth, more OP! I can’t see them now and then they will take even less damage … wow … much OP.
“200 extra power when you are revealed” – Wow buff thieves out of stealth so they be more OP in and out of it!?! MUCH OP.
Invigorating Precision – Thieves already have too much healing from stealth… this just gives them even more all around… MUCH OP.
Bewildering Ambush – I’m already getting trolled by preplex thieves… you’re buffing them? MUCH OP.
Assassin’s Equilibrium – Giving them stability out of stealth (again forget it’s 1 second, just think like a QQ’er)… are you crazy? you want them to be OP in and out of stealth!?! MUCH OP.

Now because of those 4 GM traits (mind you, they can’t be taken all at the same time, but people do ignore this fact) the QQ’ing will increase.

>>A lot of new builds will show up that people will have no clue about how to deal with, stealth support thief inc, FINALLY. Condi thieves will be insanely strong, start thinking about the changes to stuff like the Balthazar Runes

Indeed. I can forsee myself taking bewildering ambush along with this Runeset and a sigil of hydromancy in each off hand.

Use the withdraw heal to lay down an aoe fire for 3 seconds + duration boosts by rolling into a group with the heal then swap to your other weapon set for the chill.
Use bewildering ambush for the confusion.

I think we are going to see a lot more burning and a lot more chills.

A lot of classes will be doing something similar so there is going to be a lot of moaning about this until people adapt.

babazhook.6805:

>>A lot of new builds will show up that people will have no clue about how to deal with, stealth support thief inc, FINALLY. Condi thieves will be insanely strong, start thinking about the changes to stuff like the Balthazar Runes

Indeed. I can forsee myself taking bewildering ambush along with this Runeset and a sigil of hydromancy in each off hand.

Use the withdraw heal to lay down an aoe fire for 3 seconds + duration boosts by rolling into a group with the heal then swap to your other weapon set for the chill.
Use bewildering ambush for the confusion.

I think we are going to see a lot more burning and a lot more chills.

A lot of classes will be doing something similar so there is going to be a lot of moaning about this until people adapt.

balthazar runes are garbage on thieves.
hydromancy is also bad/risky on thieves.
condition thief will be still the same exact thing as it was before. condi=bleed :/
bewildering ambush is worse choice than sleight of hand (rather interrupt a 6k heal)

so much is off in what you suggest. i thinkthe traits have potential but just not made to work appropriately. the crit dmg heal should be at 10% atleast…for example.

kubetz.3058:

evilapprentice.6379:

I’ve seen QQ about stolen items(Remember the one about how ridiculously OP whirling axe was?), stealth in general, evades, teleports, damage… you name it, thief is broken at it. Poor condition removal, no protection, no stability (until the patch! lawl) and lowest base HP pool are all meaningless to the uber-broken thief who can kill everything and anything.

Yeah, ton of people are QQing about thieves, but when you look for those “what professions are giving you troubles” topics on different subforums you see quite a few posters saying they are eating thieves for breakfast (warriors, engineers, necromancers, etc).

Does. Not. Compute.

EDIT (so I won’t multipost):

Dee Jay.2460:

Sigils are a little harder to predict but here too I don’t see a fundamental shift taking place since they affect all classes equally.

Having 100% crit chance on CnD/BS/HS will be a lot stronger than having those crits on rangers, SD engineers and some others.

Some professions doesn’t have several very strong attacks and/or cannot afford running around in zerker gear so I don’t think it will affect everyone the same way.

If you’re referring to superior Sigil of Intelligence then that’s pure theory in your head. It requires a weapon switch to activate which would require Thieves to run with double D/D with no Shortbow to get the desired effect. How many Thieves do you think are going to give up their Shortbow?

You also have to give up the additional burst gained from DPS Sigils like Air or Fire. So it comes at a cost.

As for the impact of Runes, I already use Runes of Strength.

Here’s what I gain:
25% Might duration
10 Power
25% Chance to gain 10 seconds of Might when hit, up from a 3% chance for 20 seconds of Might.
+2% damage while under the effect of Might.

On average I’d estimate this ensures me 2 additional Might stacks in most situations. So 70 Power + 10 Power and 2% additional damage.

How does this compensate for my Critical Damage dropping from 100% to 70% (50% from gear, 20% from trait-line)?

I’m not maths geek but I just don’t see it.

Dee Jay.2460:

On average I’d estimate this ensures me 2 additional Might stacks in most situations. So 70 Power + 10 Power and 2% additional damage.

How does this compensate for my Critical Damage dropping from 100% to 75%?

I’m not maths geek but I just don’t see it.

The base damage on a critical hit is 150%, so the damage on crits drops from 250% → 225% for you. This is only a 10% drop. And now consider that you don’t crit on every hit, so your total DPS drop is something less than 10% (probably closer to 7-8%).

I don’t know how much Power you have, but if you are around ~2000 or so, +80 Power is about 4% extra damage. Add on the extra 2% damage over what you are normally getting with your Runes, and… your worst-case damage drop isn’t really that bad.

Yeah but you’re assuming I’m fighting a target dummy. In practice though 70% of my damage comes from Backstab. It’s also where I derive most of my burst and pressure from.

And let’s say I have 3000 non-critical Backstab that currently is multiplied by 250% = 7500 damage.

This becomes 3000 × 220% = 6600.

Now I add the 6% DPS from the new bonus and extra Power which brings me to 7000.

To be fair that’s a smaller difference than I was expecting. Noticeable, but not game-breaking, especially if you add the added DPS to the non-crits.

However you can’t theorycraft PvP. Burst is important, it ensures kills, it pressures enemies into panicking and blowing cooldowns. It enables you to capitalize on short windows of opportunity etc. So I think it will be noticeable.

Also, all other Rune Sets are being buffed too, so whatever I gained in DPS, may well be mitigated by the extra Toughness or Vitality on the new Rune Sets.

So overall the DPS loss is going to be noticeable but not as game-changing as the numbers might originally suggest. I can live with that.

But I was never hugely concerned with it in the first place. What has always bothered me more about this update is how Condition builds are escaping practically unscathed. They could have at least nerfed the +/- Condition Duration foods.

^Sigil of intelligence crit remains after swaping away from the weapon that has it, it also remains if you leave combat.
To get into combat jumping down a ledge will do, so you can pre-load that, people already guaratee their CnD crit this way now. Not to speak of ambient critters and such.
Shooting with your bow before swaping to your daggers is the “conservative” apporach.

Your comments above just illustrate you do not even really understand how the burst combo is done best.

3x 100% crit will be sick. especially with executioner on top….

Oh, and regarding the burn on healing you should realise that applying conditions does not break stealth… QQ

Yeah I know itis a gimmick, but one that will be driving people mad especially since the Blathazar runes will go from power to condi damage.

Bazzoong.7145:

^Sigil of intelligence crit remains after swaping away from the weapon that has it, it also remains if you leave combat.
To get into combat jumping down a ledge will do, so you can pre-load that, people already guaratee their CnD crit this way now. Not to speak of ambient critters and such.
Shooting with your bow before swaping to your daggers is the “conservative” apporach.

Your comments above just illustrate you do not even really understand how the burst combo is done best.

3x 100% crit will be sick. especially with executioner on top….

Neither do you since none has been able to test it yet. I will reserve judgement on that Sigil until I experience it in practice. Could potentially be powerful but could also be incredibly impractical.

I can see the potential of D/D and Sigil of Intelligence combo, but the point of many people is, I presume, that this combo will be so poor compared to it’s current state that it won’t even be worth using. Because what are you going to do afterwards? Tickle people with 2k cnds and 5k backstabs, granteed that you even hit them?
D/X will most likely be terribad vs anyone whohas any idea how to play.

>>balthazar runes are garbage on thieves.

Have you tried them? Have you played a condition damage build? They work fine even as currently constructed with power rather then condition.

>>condition thief will be still the same exact thing as it was before. condi=bleed :/

You do not seem very clear as to how a condition damage thief works and maximizes his damage., Balthazar does not impact the amount of bleeds one can lay down in any way shape or form. If one can lay down an AOE condition which will lay down 5000 points of damage on a foe in 6 seconds if they do not cleanse and can do this every 15 seconds, then all those bleeds one puts on are extra effective. I can lay down just as many stacks of bleed along with another cover.

When thieves lay down torment off their p/d build it not so much for the damage as for the cover to the bleed AND added pressure on the opponent to cleanse too early.

The more condition types put on the better.

>>bewildering ambush is worse choice than sleight of hand (rather interrupt a 6k heal)

An opinion and not a fact. First and foremost laying down 5 stacks of confusion is assured rather then subject to timing. Secondly that 6k heal is in fact a 4k heal with a poison applied.

If the heal applied after the confusion stacks there 1100+ damage applied. That heal subjected to timing is now on the order of 3k.

The confusion stacks act as another cover condition. The burn acts as another condition and lays down 5k more damage if not cleansed.

If I wished I could get that same daze/interrupt effect off a scorpion wire or a head shot and interrupt that heal.

I see us recieving a lot of QQ over Team Deathmatch more than anything. No class can outmatch a thief’s ability to kill and disengage in a heartbeat.

Viking Jorun.5413:

I see us recieving a lot of QQ over Team Deathmatch more than anything. No class can outmatch a thief’s ability to kill and disengage in a heartbeat.

Oh, I have not even thought about that yet.

Thief/Mesmer in 2v2….

Maybe TME will be the new RMP in 3v3

Since they have team deathmatch now, can we remove the points-on-kill from domination maps or at the very least tone it down? You should not promote zerging, even if they lose because of it still it leads to a lackluster match because you can’t actually test your build out in semi-even numbers (unless you’re a warrior/engi/Mesmer who just kites you and lives).