Guild Wars 2

Makes a Warrior more mobile then any weapon set a Thief has considering our survivability is directly linked to our mobility.

I believe this is a issue worth looking into.

Huh? The guardian greatsword has one mobility move (Leap of Faith). On a 15 second cooldown/12 second cooldown traited.

Bluebird.1890:

Huh? The guardian greatsword has one mobility move (Leap of Faith). On a 15 second cooldown/12 second cooldown traited.

My bad its actually the Warrior.
Point being for a class that’s supposed to be more mobile then the others its surprisingly not as mobile.

Exactly, where is the mobility on the warrior’s greatsword?
So you consider Rush or Whirlwind Attack better mobility skills compared to Steal, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Disabling Shot, Infiltrator’s Strike, Heartseeker, Death Blossom, Flanking Strike and Shadow Shot & Strike?
Better you reroll warrior then.

Greatsword warriors are pretty mobile, especially with the trait that removes all movement impairment in the Tactics line.

Sorrow:

Whirlwind attack has about the range of an Infil arrow. Bladetrail has a double cripple on it, and it can hit a ridiculous amount of targets. Rush is basically the distance of a shadowstep.

And with Mobile Strikes, the movement abilities remove all movement impairment.

So, yes, they have some ridiculous mobility.

Bluebird.1890:

Sorrow:

Whirlwind attack has about the range of an Infil arrow. Bladetrail has a double cripple on it, and it can hit a ridiculous amount of targets. Rush is basically the distance of a shadowstep.

And with Mobile Strikes, the movement abilities remove all movement impairment.

So, yes, they have some ridiculous mobility.

They do have excellent mobility, and I don’t think another profession having good mobility weapons is any threat to thief mobility. People always talk about Infiltrator’s Arrow, which is an awesome mobility skill, but they forget:

1. Infiltrator’s Strike, spammable back-and-forth shadowstep that not only allows you to close, but allows you to return to your original location instantly. This is amazing in the right hands, both as a means of escape and deception.

2. Heartseeker…as a movement ability. Relatively cheap at 3 initiative and will transport you straight-line a very solid distance under Swiftness. Again, spammable.

3. Spammable evades including Death Blossom and Disabling Shot, which basically function as extra dodges if you’re good on the timing.

Completely ignoring the excellent mobility-based traits and utilities thieves have, there are some weapon skills that are quite good for it. I would also submit that as nice as the warrior trait is that removes mobility-affecting conditions when they use movement skills, the thief trait that removes cripple on dodge is a good parity. My only complaint is that it should also remove chilled.

sorrow.2364:

Exactly, where is the mobility on the warrior’s greatsword?
So you consider Rush or Whirlwind Attack better mobility skills compared to Steal, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Disabling Shot, Infiltrator’s Strike, Heartseeker, Death Blossom, Flanking Strike and Shadow Shot & Strike?
Better you reroll warrior then.

You can’t have all those things at once on a Thief, and you certainly can’t have them all on a single weapon. You named off skills from 5 separate weapon combinations.

Bluebird.1890:

Sorrow:

Whirlwind attack has about the range of an Infil arrow. Bladetrail has a double cripple on it, and it can hit a ridiculous amount of targets. Rush is basically the distance of a shadowstep.

And with Mobile Strikes, the movement abilities remove all movement impairment.

So, yes, they have some ridiculous mobility.

Rush has greater distance than a Shadowstep, unless you use Steal with the Trickery trait for longer range on it.

Tulisin.6945:

3. Spammable evades including Death Blossom and Disabling Shot, which basically function as extra dodges if you’re good on the timing.

It really isn’t important to the discussion, but I just thought I should mention this; Death Blossom borders on impossible to use to deliberately evade an attack. It has a quarter second after you press the button before it will actually activate for some reason (I think they made the character wind up for the jump), and another quarter second or so into the animation before the Evades actually start, and then the evades stop another nearly half second before the animation actually ends.
You’d need to see into the future to dodge an attack with that on purpose, because it has a huge delay and a small window of evasion.
I’ve been knocked down mid-air several times by stuns.

Tulisin.6945:

Bluebird.1890:

Sorrow:

Whirlwind attack has about the range of an Infil arrow. Bladetrail has a double cripple on it, and it can hit a ridiculous amount of targets. Rush is basically the distance of a shadowstep.

And with Mobile Strikes, the movement abilities remove all movement impairment.

So, yes, they have some ridiculous mobility.

They do have excellent mobility, and I don’t think another profession having good mobility weapons is any threat to thief mobility. People always talk about Infiltrator’s Arrow, which is an awesome mobility skill, but they forget:

1. Infiltrator’s Strike, spammable back-and-forth shadowstep that not only allows you to close, but allows you to return to your original location instantly. This is amazing in the right hands, both as a means of escape and deception.

2. Heartseeker…as a movement ability. Relatively cheap at 3 initiative and will transport you straight-line a very solid distance under Swiftness. Again, spammable.

3. Spammable evades including Death Blossom and Disabling Shot, which basically function as extra dodges if you’re good on the timing.

Completely ignoring the excellent mobility-based traits and utilities thieves have, there are some weapon skills that are quite good for it. I would also submit that as nice as the warrior trait is that removes mobility-affecting conditions when they use movement skills, the thief trait that removes cripple on dodge is a good parity. My only complaint is that it should also remove chilled.

Not sure where you think I forgot about any of this.

I said nothing about thief mobility being lacking; I play S/D + SB with shadowstep utility, so I mean… mobility isn’t exactly an issue.

I was simply agreeing with Babel that, yes, greatsword warriors have some ridiculous mobility.

I’m just surprised that thieves who are supposed to have the greatest mobility don’t.

Bluebird.1890:

Sorrow:

Whirlwind attack has about the range of an Infil arrow. Bladetrail has a double cripple on it, and it can hit a ridiculous amount of targets. Rush is basically the distance of a shadowstep.

And with Mobile Strikes, the movement abilities remove all movement impairment.

So, yes, they have some ridiculous mobility.

Whirlwind attack has half the range of Infiltrator’s Arrow.
Bladetrail isn’t a movement skill.
Rush doesn’t give you the ability to get back after you rushed and have also a pretty high travel time compared to thieves’ teleports.

Infiltrator’s Strike and Shadowstep remove conditions and don’t need any trait.
Withdraw and Roll for Initiative remove all mobility impairment conditions.
A Tier 1 Shadow Art trait remove a condition each time you go into stealth (actually 2 if you stay into stealth for 3 seconds).

Plus, don’t forget that all the skills I mentioned before are SPAMMABLE, or at least they are always available. As a Warrior, you can’t use Rush or Whirlwind on demand as you can with Infiltrator’s Strike as a thief.

So thieves have far more mobility than warriors, also defensive mobility rather than offensive.

BabelFish.7234:

I’m just surprised that thieves who are supposed to have the greatest mobility don’t.

This is a clear exaggeration.

sorrow.2364:

Bluebird.1890:

Sorrow:

Whirlwind attack has about the range of an Infil arrow. Bladetrail has a double cripple on it, and it can hit a ridiculous amount of targets. Rush is basically the distance of a shadowstep.

And with Mobile Strikes, the movement abilities remove all movement impairment.

So, yes, they have some ridiculous mobility.

Whirlwind attack has half the range of Infiltrator’s Arrow.
Bladetrail isn’t a movement skill.
Rush doesn’t give you the ability to get back after you rushed and have also a pretty high travel time compared to thieves’ teleports.

Infiltrator’s Strike and Shadowstep remove conditions and doesn’t need a trait.
Withdraw and Roll for Initiative remove all mobility impairment conditions.
A Tier 1 Shadow Art trait remove a condition each time you go into stealth (actually 2 if you stay into stealth for 3 seconds).

So thieves have far more mobility than warriors, also defensive mobility rather than offensive.

BabelFish.7234:

I’m just surprised that thieves who are supposed to have the greatest mobility don’t.

This is a clear exaggeration.

Half of what you mentioned has nothing to do with mobility -.-
And no, it wasn’t.
GS offers the Warrior amazing mobility which at the very least is on par with the Thief.
I haven’t even mentioned Elementals and how they can be just as mobile too.

BabelFish.7234:

I’m just surprised that thieves who are supposed to have the greatest mobility don’t.

Whether the most mobile thief weapon set is the most mobile weapon set in the game is debatable.

Whether thieves are the most mobile profession in the game is not. Between utilities and things like the Acrobatics traitline, it isn’t even close with very very few exceptions. Mobility heavy elementalists can keep up with your average thief not specialized for it, for instance, but a mobility-specialized thief is all but uncatchable.

The amount of mobility thieves can attain just by grabbing a shortbow swap and a utility is something other professions have to focus their entire builds on attaining.

BabelFish.7234:

Half of what you mentioned has nothing to do with mobility -.-
And no, it wasn’t.
GS offers the Warrior amazing mobility which at the very least is on par with the Thief.
I haven’t even mentioned Elementals and how they can be just as mobile too.

Only the shadow art trait has nothing to do with mobility, but that was an answer to the guy who said that warriors have a trait which removes immobilize.

So, if you are not exaggerating, you have no objective view, because it is clear that thieves mobility isn’t comparable to the mobility of any profession in the game.

Tulisin.6945:

BabelFish.7234:

I’m just surprised that thieves who are supposed to have the greatest mobility don’t.

Whether the most mobile thief weapon set is the most mobile weapon set in the game is debatable.

Whether thieves are the most mobile profession in the game is not. Between utilities and things like the Acrobatics traitline, it isn’t even close with very very few exceptions. Mobility heavy elementalists can keep up with your average thief not specialized for it, for instance, but a mobility-specialized thief is all but uncatchable.

I am talking about weapon sets, to me there is no doubt that thieves are the most mobile utilizing utilities and weapon sets together.

sorrow.2364:

BabelFish.7234:

Half of what you mentioned has nothing to do with mobility -.-
And no, it wasn’t.
GS offers the Warrior amazing mobility which at the very least is on par with the Thief.
I haven’t even mentioned Elementals and how they can be just as mobile too.

Only the shadow art trait has nothing to do with mobility, but that was an answer to the guy who said that warriors have a trait which removes immobilize.

So, if you are not exaggerating, you have no objective view, because it is clear that thieves mobility isn’t comparable to the mobility of any profession in the game.

Whatever dude, you can continue to get uppity and I’ll continue eating cheesies and not feeding you your drama fill of the day.

This has become an exercise in futility. When people start throwing out their opinion on the matter juxtaposed with a clear assertion of objectivity on their account, it’s probably time to just step away from the discussion and let them think they’ve won.

Probably will make their day.

BabelFish.7234:

Whatever dude, you can continue to get uppity and I’ll continue eating cheesies and not feeding you your drama fill of the day.

You made a clearly unfounded and non-sense statement and now you’re trying to give it a reason with weak arguments, in order to make the thieves look like the weak one and warriors as the op who needs a nerf. And there you are with that sentence whose clear scope is to avoid to answer my reasoning.

Well done.

Every S/x weapon set has better mobility than any warrior in this world, without counting any utility or steal itself.

sorrow.2364:

BabelFish.7234:

Whatever dude, you can continue to get uppity and I’ll continue eating cheesies and not feeding you your drama fill of the day.

You made a clearly unfounded and non-sense statement and now you’re trying to give it a reason with weak arguments, in order to make the thieves look like the weak one and warriors as the op who needs a nerf. And there you are with that sentence whose clear scope is to avoid to answer my reasoning.

Well done.

Every S/x weapon set has better mobility than any warrior in this world, without counting any utility or steal itself.

“I am talking about weapon sets, to me there is no doubt that thieves are the most mobile utilizing utilities and weapon sets together.”

Good for you, ignoring comments which dictate someone’s opinion.
Have a nice life, I certainly won’t be contributing to it any longer.

BabelFish.7234:

“I am talking about weapon sets, to me there is no doubt that thieves are the most mobile utilizing utilities and weapon sets together.”

Good for you, ignoring comments which dictate someone’s opinion.
Have a nice life, I certainly won’t be contributing to it any longer.

“Every S/x weapon set has better mobility than any warrior in this world, without counting any utility or steal itself.”

If it is your way of discussing about something, I don’t see the point of making this thread.
If you wanted to enforce your opinion and nothing else, you should have sent an email to ArenaNet telling them your surely founded opinion or talked to yourself in front of a mirror, not opening a topic in a public forum and then avoiding any form of argument.

sorrow.2364:

BabelFish.7234:

“I am talking about weapon sets, to me there is no doubt that thieves are the most mobile utilizing utilities and weapon sets together.”

Good for you, ignoring comments which dictate someone’s opinion.
Have a nice life, I certainly won’t be contributing to it any longer.

“Every S/x weapon set has better mobility than any warrior in this world, without counting any utility or steal itself.”

If it is your way of discussing about something, I don’t see the point of making this thread.
If you wanted to enforce your opinion and nothing else, you should have sent an email to ArenaNet telling them your surely founded opinion or talked to yourself in front of a mirror, not opening a topic in a public forum and then avoiding any form of argument.

Oh I’m willing to discuss it with people, just not you. I know your type and I know its best to avoid people like you. I don’t need that kind of drama in my life.

In case it wasn’t clear last time I’ll say it one last time: have a nice life Bye.

sorrow.2364:

BabelFish.7234:

Whatever dude, you can continue to get uppity and I’ll continue eating cheesies and not feeding you your drama fill of the day.

You made a clearly unfounded and non-sense statement and now you’re trying to give it a reason with weak arguments, in order to make the thieves look like the weak one and warriors as the op who needs a nerf. And there you are with that sentence whose clear scope is to avoid to answer my reasoning.

Well done.

Every S/x weapon set has better mobility than any warrior in this world, without counting any utility or steal itself.

Thiefs has best in combat mobility, thats true.

The other part is that out of combat that movbility way more limited then elementalist with air spec for movement.

Out of combat thief has: Cons
1. No swiftness exept 2 seconds on dodge or 10 seconds on steal(both cant be kept for too long.
2. Sword/X has no movement out of combat at all.
3. Infilrtators arrow drain so much innitiative, if you encounter somebody you wont be able to do basicly anything.

Pros
1. Can shadow step 3000 range using utility + Infilrtators arrow.
2. Heartseeker is pretty effective with swiftness( yet look above cant rly get reliable swiftness when solo)
3. Signet of shadows 25% movement increase can do job of swiftness if we are willing to sacrifise utility slot just for movement.(its active isnt worth the notice)
4. Our movement skill Shadowstep is also condition stun/condition removal, so if we run away from something its very usefull.

It is worth pointing out that you can trait for permaswiftness if you want to, especially with food available.

I’m sick of the argument “Thieves have great mobility, since their mobility moves are spammable”.
Outside of theory, thats just not happening.

So you close the gap with 2 Infiltrator Arrows to a enemy player.. and then?
You are out of Initative, done. Now you can’t run away with your “great mobility” (since reminder: you are out of Initiative), nor can you fight (since reminder: you are out of Initiative).
The enemy can now freely chop you down, great job Mr. Mobile.

While other classes can use their mobility moves and then fight to their fullest potential, since they are balanced around using specific skills in specific situations, and then having them on CD.

So a Thief CAN have great mobility, but then he has absolutely zero offense, besides his auto attack.
Or a Thief has great combat moves (stealthing, high burst dmg), but barely any mobility but long CD (~40s) Utility skills.

So over all, how is that great mobility?

A Thief can only do one thing at a time, since his skills have a shared Coold Downs, based on a ressource system called Initiative.

So either a Thief has great mobility, but can’t do anything with it, or great offensive abilities (high bursts), but thats it – or you take a overall look on the profession, and realise that Thieves are pretty crappy at everything if you take the average.

I can’t believe that such a luckluster profession is still called OP by some people.

Thieves are situational. Yes, they can be incredible good at something, but only if they put all their ressources in it – but then just change the situation by playing skillful, and you get a free kill on a silver plate.

So please stop believing a Thief can have a) great mobility, close a gap with a few Heartseeker or Infiltrator Arrows, and then b) kill somebody.
It’s either a or b. And if theres a gap to close, the Thief can’t effectively do anything in the first place. He can’t kill the enemy because there is a gap that has to be closed first (obvously). And while he can close the gap, he then couldn’t do anything afterwards, so whats the point?

Other classes on the other hand can effectively clode gaps AND then fight to their fullest potential. (I realise that I’m repeating myself at this point, but i kinda feels it’s necessary).

So who has the better Mobility after all?

The class with useless “great mobility”, or
the class with effectively used “average mobility”?

Escaping is another topic since we talk about combat, fighting, closing gaps, and not a run away contest.
Having the tools to close a gap and killing your enemy is more valuable than just being able to run away from your enemy anyway. I guess thats obvious.

//E:

Stin.9781:

Thiefs has best in combat mobility, thats true.
….
Infilrtators arrow drain so much innitiative, if you encounter somebody you wont be able to do basicly anything.

So you are saying that Thief has the best in combat mobility, but can’t use his best movement skills in combat, because then he can’t actually fight anymore.

I’m confused where the “best mobility” is then!?
Don’t tell me 50 second CD skills like Shadowstep are the Thieves great in combat mobility since.. well, it isn’t.

Stin.9781:

Thiefs has best in combat mobility, thats true.

The other part is that out of combat that movbility way more limited then elementalist with air spec for movement.

Out of combat thief has: Cons
1. No swiftness exept 2 seconds on dodge or 10 seconds on steal(both cant be kept for too long.
2. Sword/X has no movement out of combat at all.
3. Infilrtators arrow drain so much innitiative, if you encounter somebody you wont be able to do basicly anything.

Pros
1. Can shadow step 3000 range using utility + Infilrtators arrow.
2. Heartseeker is pretty effective with swiftness( yet look above cant rly get reliable swiftness when solo)
3. Signet of shadows 25% movement increase can do job of swiftness if we are willing to sacrifise utility slot just for movement.(its active isnt worth the notice)
4. Our movement skill Shadowstep is also condition stun/condition removal, so if we run away from something its very usefull.

Well, most the time a combination of shadowstep, signet of shadows and dodgeroll swiftness can do quite good its job, but anyway I don’t see out of combat mobility as a real issue, or, at least, I don’t think that it is what’s the op meant before leaving the argument he started.

I usually win far point races against warris on foefire. I don’t know what you’re talking about. Thieves’ mobility is by far the very best in the game. Infiltrator’s Arrow is way too strong in terms of mobility even though it’s expensive.

Asum.4960:

I’m sick of the argument “Thieves have great mobility, since their mobility moves are spammable”.
Outside of theory, thats just not happening.

So you close the gap with 2 Infiltrator Arrows to a enemy player.. and then?
You are out of Initative, done. Now you can’t run away with your “great mobility” (since reminder: you are out of Initiative), nor can you fight (since reminder: you are out of Initiative).
The enemy can now freely chop you down, great job Mr. Mobile.

While other classes can use their mobility moves and then fight to their fullest potential, since they are balanced around using specific skills in specific situations, and then having them on CD.

So a Thief CAN have great mobility, but then he has absolutely zero offense, besides his auto attack.
Or a Thief has great combat moves (stealthing, high burst dmg), but barely any mobility but long CD (~40s) Utility skills.

So over all, how is that great mobility?

A Thief can only do one thing at a time, since his skills have a shared Coold Downs, based on a ressource system called Initiative.

So either a Thief has great mobility, but can’t do anything with it, or great offensive abilities (high bursts), but thats it – or you take a overall look on the profession, and realise that Thieves are pretty crappy at everything if you take the average.

I can’t believe that such a luckluster profession is still called OP by some people.

Thieves are situational. Yes, they can be incredible good at something, but only if they put all their ressources in it – but then just change the situation by playing skillful, and you get a free kill on a silver plate.

So please stop believing a Thief can have a) great mobility, close a gap with a few Heartseeker or Infiltrator Arrows, and then b) kill somebody.
It’s either a or b. And if theres a gap to close, the Thief can’t effectively do anything in the first place. He can’t kill the enemy because there is a gap that has to be closed first (obvously). And while he can close the gap, he then couldn’t do anything afterwards, so whats the point?

Other classes on the other hand can effectively clode gaps AND then fight to their fullest potential. (I realise that I’m repeating myself at this point, but i kinda feels it’s necessary).

So who has the better Mobility after all?

The class with useless “great mobility”, or
the class with effectively used “average mobility”?

Escaping is another topic since we talk about combat, fighting, closing gaps, and not a run away contest.
Having the tools to close a gap and killing your enemy is more valuable than just being able to run away from your enemy anyway. I guess thats obvious.

You started from a wrong incipit.
Exactly, which thief uses 2 Infiltrator’s Arrow to close a gap?
Do thieves regenerate initiative? Have them also traits other than skills?

The Arcrobatic traitline is absolutely awesome, it allow the thief who specs into to use a dodge almost every second and dodging is mobility. You didn’t took this into account.
Infiltrator’s Strike is on 3 initiative. It is more than enough to close a gap and leaves you with 9 initative, same as Heartseeker.

Mobility, also, not only means close a gap, but moving on the battlefield faster than others gaining positional advantage.
So escaping, roll backwards, dodges and so on are into the general definition of mobility.

Malicious.6742:

I usually win far point races against warris on foefire. I don’t know what you’re talking about. Thieves’ mobility is by far the very best in the game. Infiltrator’s Arrow is way too strong in terms of mobility even though it’s expensive.

Last time i checked mobility in a game based around combat isn’t measured in “who gets the fastest from point A to point B”, but overall (combat) performance.

What use is getting to point B very quickly, but not being able to do anything once you reach it (except in a racing game, where the goal IS in fact to reach point B, but again, GW 2 isn’t a racing game, it’s a combat based RPG)?

Asum.4960:

Malicious.6742:

I usually win far point races against warris on foefire. I don’t know what you’re talking about. Thieves’ mobility is by far the very best in the game. Infiltrator’s Arrow is way too strong in terms of mobility even though it’s expensive.

Last time i checked mobility in a game based around combat isn’t measured in “who gets the fastest from point A to point B”, but overall (combat) performance.

What use is getting to point B very quickly, but not being able to do anything once you reach it (except in a racing game, where the goal IS in fact to reach point B, but again, GW 2 isn’t a racing game, it’s a combat based RPG)?

You are arguing with people who will literally change the point they are trying to make mid-discussion in order to continue arguing with you.

It’s a waste of time. Everything you said is 100% accurate, and the people who entered this topic with an objective mindset are inclined to agree with you.

Do yourself a favor and just close it now.

sorrow.2364:

You started from a wrong incipit.
Exactly, which thief uses 2 Infiltrator’s Arrow to close a gap?
Do thieves regenerate initiative? Have them also traits other than skills?

The Arcrobatic traitline is absolutely awesome, it allow the thief who specs into to use a dodge almost every second and dodging is mobility. You didn’t took this into account.
Infiltrator’s Strike is on 3 initiative. It is more than enough to close a gap and leaves you with 9 initative, same as Heartseeker.

Mobility, also, not only means close a gap, but moving on the battlefield faster than others gaining positional advantage.
So escaping, roll backwards, dodges and so on are into the general definition of mobility.

Aw gawd.
Dodging is NOT mobility, it’s damage mitigation.
Slowly i realise why people are having problems with burst Thieves.

I realise that mobility is not only closing gaps, but also moving over the battlefield.
In fact my point was: Mobility isn’t only moving around the battlefield, it’s ALSO closing gaps.

And if you take the average, the Thief is exactly that, average.

Asum.4960:

Aw gawd.
Dodging is NOT mobility, it’s damage mitigation.
Slowly i realise why people are having problems with burst Thieves.

I realise that mobility is not only closing gaps, but also moving over the battlefield.
In fact my point was: Mobility isn’t only moving around the battlefield, it’s ALSO closing gaps.

And if you take the average, the Thief is exactly that, average.

Dodging is the base mobility given to any profession.
If dodging don’t move your character faster than walking, then you’ll be right, but since it does, dodging is mobility. Also damage mitigation, of course, but also mobility.

Thief isn’t the average. Almost every weapon set of thief gives a movement/teleport skill. They have an above average set of utility movement skills. They have also the cheapest access to teleports among all professions, which is the best form of mobility in the game.
How can you say they are average?

Signet of Rage + Shake it Off + Greatword: “Lololol catch me if you can and if you do get ready to suffer because you won’t have initiative/endurance and my 30 seconds might, fury and swiftness will still be up”.

My two cents: Classes were obviously designed to have roughly the same offensive potential. Broken PvP builds rooted in the mechanics of Initiative and the bursty nature of PvP aside (which are not working as intended), this includes the Thief. This does not consider PvE, where the thief is not notably offensively stronger than any other class.

With that out of the way, where PvE is concerned, the mechanical differences between the professions are primarily in their defenses and their utility (which mobility is dependent on). Thief mobility and survivability through utility is above average, but not stellar, and certainly not good enough to compensate for their terrible defense. That is why people constantly complain about dying too much and feeling too weak in PvE.

The only way thief even feels viable in PvE is because of a couple of arguably overpowered skills such as Caltrops, which makes the efficacy of the Thief overly-reliant on player skill compared to other classes (except maybe the elementalist). While the devs are working on bringing certain builds in line for PvP, I hope they give some attention to some of the PvE issues the classes face.

I would argue that it was a mistake to attempt to balance the armor types through class abilities rather than within the armor categories instead. Why do the medium and light armor classes not have higher movement speed and/or endurance regeneration, for example?

So, after we have realized that the OP doesn’t want to discuss about the thief mobility compared to warriors, what is the real point of this topic?

Do he want to say that thieves mobility is underpowered and needs to be buffed?
Do he want to say that warriors mobility is overpowered and needs to be nerfed (remove Rush on GS, maybe)?
In both cases, I think that this topic is an absurd in itself.

Einlanzer.1627:

My two cents: Classes were obviously designed to have roughly the same offensive potential. Broken PvP builds rooted in the initiative system aside (which are not working as intended), this includes the Thief. This does not consider PvE, where the thief is not notably offensively stronger than any other class.

With that out of the way, the mechanical differences between the profession are primarily in their defenses and their utility (which mobility is dependent on). Thief mobility through utility is above average, but not stellar, and certainly not good enough to compensate for their terrible defense. That is why people constantly complain about dying too much and feeling too weak in PvE.

The only way thief even feels viable in PvE is because of a couple of arguably overpowered skills such as Caltrops, which makes the efficacy of the Thief overly-reliant on player skill compared to other classes (except maybe the elementalist). While the devs are working on bringing certain builds in line for PvP, I hope they give some attention to some of the PvE issues the classes face.

I would argue that it was a mistake to attempt to balance the armor types through class abilities rather than within the armor categories instead. Why do the medium and light armor classes not have higher movement speed and/or endurance regeneration, for example?

You forgot to take into account Stealth, which is the second compensation for thieves to their low health and it is actually very good in PvE.
Every profession which does not wear heavy armor has good way to overcome the damage reduction lack (with some exceptions).

Engineers have tons of boon, none complained about their survivability.
Rangers have quite good mobility, evades, range and some damage mitigation skills.
Thieves have amazing mobility and stealth (which means also tons of heals when traited).
Mesmers have clones and phantasms.
Elementalists have mobility, boons and healing.
Necromancers have Death Shroud, high health pool (they would have also healing if Blood Magic was worth mentioning).

Warriors have? Some blocking skills and endure pain. That’s why they have also high health pool.
Guardians have? Tons of boon and healing. That’s why they have low health.

I would agree that Guardians are a bit over average, but Warriors definitely aren’t.

Einlazer, that was a fantastic and succinct description of what I think the OP was trying to say before we got sidetracked by semantics.

Have you put it in the thief feedback thread? It definitely belongs there too.

Tulisin.6945:

It is worth pointing out that you can trait for permaswiftness if you want to, especially with food available.

I am only Spvp and Tpvp player. WvW lost its meaning to me lately, as i no longer have zerging spirit, and going solo, brings me no joy. And i dont see myself gaining perma swiftness in Spvp

Asum.4960:

Malicious.6742:

I usually win far point races against warris on foefire. I don’t know what you’re talking about. Thieves’ mobility is by far the very best in the game. Infiltrator’s Arrow is way too strong in terms of mobility even though it’s expensive.

Last time i checked mobility in a game based around combat isn’t measured in “who gets the fastest from point A to point B”, but overall (combat) performance.

What use is getting to point B very quickly, but not being able to do anything once you reach it (except in a racing game, where the goal IS in fact to reach point B, but again, GW 2 isn’t a racing game, it’s a combat based RPG)?

Movement speed is of major importance at the current state. Whoever captures a point first bunkers it to win the game. Also fights are usually won by the team that brings more players to a single point. Yet again it’s about traveling speed in order to hold points.

If you want to talk about in-combat mobility then thieves still have way better options than warriors on almost every weapon set – ofc at cost of initiative but that’s another story. Moreover thieves got utility skills like Shadow Step or the class mechanic Steal to offer incredible in-combat mobility

sorrow.2364:

You forgot to take into account Stealth, which is the second compensation for thieves to their low health and it is actually very good in PvE.
Every profession which does not wear heavy armor has good way to overcome the damage reduction lack (with some exceptions).

I actually didn’t forget to take it into account, I just didn’t fully elaborate on it. In my opinion, Stealth is currently inadequate compared to the danger-avoidance and damage-mitigation mechanics of other professions (including health pools and armor level). It doesn’t last very long, there aren’t really enough ways to achieve it, and most importantly it’s buggy.

It’s actually very common that I’ll use Hide in Shadows to try to dump aggro and it just plain doesn’t work. Any attacks coming at me will still hit me and as soon as I come out of it in 3 seconds mobs go right back to wailing on me even if they’re taking damage from other sources. And don’t get me started on how useless our Downed State is in PvE, it’s both very difficult to get a rally and very difficult to escape death. When I’m downed, I die roughly 75% of the time, compared to probably 25% of the time on my warrior. It’s frustrating to say the least.

I feel like anyone that tries to argue that thieves aren’t a bit on the weak side in PvE is just being prideful and not being honest with themselves. Sure, if you know what you’re doing you can make it work and can even make it work pretty well, but that doesn’t change anything as far as baseline class evaluations go.

Einlanzer.1627:

I actually didn’t forget to take it into account, I just didn’t fully elaborate on it. In my opinion, Stealth is currently inadequate compared to the danger-avoidance and damage-mitigation mechanics of other professions (including health pools and armor level). It doesn’t last very long, there aren’t really enough ways to achieve it, and most importantly it’s buggy.

It’s actually very common that I’ll use Hide in Shadows to try to dump aggro and it just plain doesn’t work. Any attacks coming at me will still hit me and as soon as I come out of it in 3 seconds mobs go right back to wailing on me even if they’re taking damage from other sources. And don’t get me started on how useless our Downed State is in PvE, it’s both very difficult to get a rally and very difficult to escape death. When I’m downed, I die roughly 75% of the time, compared to probably 25% of the time on my warrior. It’s frustrating to say the least.

I feel like anyone that tries to argue that thieves aren’t a bit on the weak side in PvE is just being prideful and not being honest with themselves. Sure, if you know what you’re doing you can make it work and can even make it work pretty well, but that doesn’t change anything as far as baseline class evaluations go.

You’re right about the fact that Stealth sometimes doesn’t work, but I really don’t feel that thieves are on the weak side in PvE.
They just need to be played differently as you usually play other profession or other MMO.
Thieves have to be played very mobile, kiting all the damage, popping in and out of stealth and dealing short, fast burst before starting the kiting again. It isn’t a statement I’ve put outside of nowhere, it is just what’s behind the profession concept and the only possible way to be effective in PvE and in PvP.
Actually, thieves have some of the best PvE skills around, like Cluster Bomb, Black Powder or Caltrops and they also have all the tools to survive long enough to kill a decent aggro of mobs.
Of course, you can’t stand still tanking the damage as a thief. If you play like that, it is quite obvious you are getting frustrated very fast.

About the downed state, it is something shared with most the professions. Warriors have the Vengeance and Sweet Revenge combo which should be looked into in PvE side because of its amazing effectiveness, but other professions are in the same boat.

Einlanzer.1627:

It’s actually very common that I’ll use Hide in Shadows to try to dump aggro and it just plain doesn’t work.

Not to mention, in sPvP, when you dump Shadow Refuge down the drain because you don’t lose aggro from the stupid Sword of Justice “pet”, which negates all 3 pulses of the skill due to buggy “lose aggro while in stealth” code. And then you die.

sorrow.2364:

Exactly, where is the mobility on the warrior’s greatsword?
So you consider Rush or Whirlwind Attack better mobility skills compared to Steal, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Disabling Shot, Infiltrator’s Strike, Heartseeker, Death Blossom, Flanking Strike and Shadow Shot & Strike?
Better you reroll warrior then.

• Infiltrator’s Arrow, Disabling Shot (Shortbow)
• Infiltrator’s Strike (Sword/X)
• Heartseeker (Dagger/X)
• Death Blossom (Dagger/Dagger)
• Flanking Strike (Sword/Dagger)
• Shadow Shot (Dagger/Pistol)
• Shadow Strike (Pistol/Dagger)

Gotta love those five-weapon-set builds. They’re totally OP, but I just can’t keep myself from using them. They’re so fun!

Dacromir.6207:

sorrow.2364:

Exactly, where is the mobility on the warrior’s greatsword?
So you consider Rush or Whirlwind Attack better mobility skills compared to Steal, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Disabling Shot, Infiltrator’s Strike, Heartseeker, Death Blossom, Flanking Strike and Shadow Shot & Strike?
Better you reroll warrior then.

• Infiltrator’s Arrow, Disabling Shot (Shortbow)
• Infiltrator’s Strike (Sword/X)
• Heartseeker (Dagger/X)
• Death Blossom (Dagger/Dagger)
• Flanking Strike (Sword/Dagger)
• Shadow Shot (Dagger/Pistol)
• Shadow Strike (Pistol/Dagger)

Gotta love those five-weapon-set builds. They’re totally OP, but I just can’t keep myself from using them. They’re so fun!

I lol’d

Thanks sorrow for bringing some sense into the thread. I have both classes at lvl 80 fully equipped and I would never say the warrior is more mobile than my thief…

Most classes can out run a thief because SoS doesn’t stack with swiftness.
Infiltrator shot (SB 5) still rubber-bands slightly when you shoot and move so I find it does more harm than good in most cases. A warrior using banners can move faster, a ranger with greatsword & warhorn sets + swiftness on pet swap & 10% speed signet can move twice as fast as a thief with Sb and shadowstep. A D/D elementalist is insane with RtL, Swiftness and the fire attuned charge. I could go on but theres no point because thief haters never listen anyway.

Time for the first annual “GW2 Grand Prix” we’ll have every class line up at the north side of a map with any build and weapon set they want and race to the south side, the winner gets 49 copper and a soiled rag ( salvaging kit not included)

Loading.4503:

Time for the first annual “GW2 Grand Prix” we’ll have every class line up at the north side of a map with any build and weapon set they want and race to the south side, the winner gets 49 copper and a soiled rag ( salvaging kit not included)

One profession from each country (for full latency coverage) The swiftness Olympics.

Loading.4503:

Time for the first annual “GW2 Grand Prix” we’ll have every class line up at the north side of a map with any build and weapon set they want and race to the south side, the winner gets 49 copper and a soiled rag ( salvaging kit not included)

This is the best idea in this topic

Elthuzar.9478:

Loading.4503:

Time for the first annual “GW2 Grand Prix” we’ll have every class line up at the north side of a map with any build and weapon set they want and race to the south side, the winner gets 49 copper and a soiled rag ( salvaging kit not included)

One profession from each country (for full latency coverage) The swiftness Olympics.

We should do a Triathlon, with land running, sea running, and in-combat (land) running..

Poor thiefs dont understand game mechanics.

Prema 25% run speed boost + dropping out of combat at will = best mobility in the game without giving up a single thing (dont even need the shortbow)

Thiefs have the best in combat mobility and are far from slow out of combat… other classes must use multiple weapons or utilities to get a prema +33% speed boost…. a Thief can outdue that with signet and short bow.

Spiders Spiders Spiders.8043:

Signet of Rage + Shake it Off + Greatword: “Lololol catch me if you can and if you do get ready to suffer because you won’t have initiative/endurance and my 30 seconds might, fury and swiftness will still be up”.

Bountiful Theft
Stealing grants you and all nearby allies vigor for 15 seconds. Up to two boons are also ripped from your target and granted to nearby allies.

For me is a Must in spvp e WvW

As someone with a Warrior alt, I disagree. Charge has a long CD, blade spin is unreliable.

Thief is substantially more mobile, Signet of Shadows alone trumps basically everything GS has.

However, the Thief’s mobility to damage ratio does not trump Warriors survivability to damage ratio. We have to give up a lot to stay alive, usually damage mainly. We need the right gear, the right traits, and the right weapon set. Warrior just needs gear and it’s good to go.