Guild Wars 2

Since the team is looking into Pistol skills, let us have a healthy brainstorm that may or may not inspire them for some of the changes.
Post simple ideas that may make pistols better weapons.

In my opinion, pistols need skills that can be useful fort both p/p power builds and p/d condition builds.

Body shot: Changed to Reload.
Dodge roll sideways. Your next pistol skill bounces and makes foes vulnerable.
Combo finisher: Leap.
Init cost: 3.
Next skill shot bounce: 1
Vulnerability: 3 stacks for 4 seconds.

This simple skill would do wonders for Pistols:

• Survivability: The roll would make the thief harder to catch, which pistol builds need the most.

• Functionality: The bouncing could be combo’d very well with all pistol skills, spreading your conditions, CC o damage effectively. It could also be used to set up a Shadow Strike if well positioned.

• Damage increase: The vulnerability would also help both condi and power builds deliver a little extra juice with a little preparation.

• Reliable access to steal: The leap effect of this skill would work with Blind Shot for a Stealth combo, whilst having limited use outside it since it deals no direct damage this way.

In order to make this thread worth reading, please post your own ideas instead of giving in your 100% to criticize others’. Have in mind that these are fictional skills/ideas only meant to function as inspiration. Numbers are the least important thing.

All Pistol skills: Remove pre-cast (aiming) and after-cast (recoil) delays.
Vital Shot: Remove casting time.
Body Shot: Reduce cost to 2 init and remove bolas (immobilize).
Unload: Add Ricochet baseline. Add bleeding condition.

Ankle Shot – triggers “on hit” instead of “on crit hit”
Flawless Strikes – gain +10 Ferocity for each hit on target. Max 15 stacks.
Lotus Training – missile radius 800, cripple duration 5 seconds

Vital Shot – Bit faster fire rate
Body Shot – Extend range to 1200 allowing it to be a “catch the target” shot
Unload – Ricochet always to three targets adjust damage accordingly
Head Shot – Increase the daze time slightly
Black Powder – Leave alone

I don’t understand what Anet’s weird deal with firing rate on ranged weapons is. Lots of weapons have this problem. Engi’s pistol is crap for the exact same reason the thief’s always has been – the autoattack fires too slowly for the damage dealt. This used to be the problem with Ranger Longbow, is still a problem for Warrior Longbow (and rifle since they removed the bleed), Ele staff, Mesmer scepter, etc.

What’s especially weird is that doesn’t affect every ranged weapon, just most. Engi Rifle is substantially better than Pistol in most situations because of this.

All players who complain about p/p for poor reasons are 37% quieter.

Daredevil’s bounding dodge should have been left a leap finisher, because of P/P. It was by far the best option for a P/P condition build we’ve ever had, and instead it was changed to Blast?

Black Powder is an extremely small target to aim your dodge for, the leap finisher combo-ed perfectly, and the only really good use of the bounding dodge is in builds that don’t use dagger main hand already. Everyone knows we have a great blast finisher in the cluster bomb already! Condition pistol is a much lesser used build than everything else, and deserves something to make it shine. Even better to throw it behind the elite specialization gate.

One other idea that is terribly obvious: Unload needs to be given the Vulnerability application of Rapid Fire. This fits now in both Power and Condi builds. Tweak Unload’s raw damage slightly, accordingly. Also maybe take the Vulnerability out of Body Shot and compensate that one with longer Immobilize (Agreed, too, Body Shot needs 1k-1200 range).

I always found it painfully obvious that Body Shot’s CC was too short. If you chose P/P and Shortbow, it is actually a horse apiece between shadowstepping on the bow to chase versus immobilizing to snare your enemy. One should be for retreating (SB), while one should be superior for closing the gap against a single enemy (Body Shot).

Replace Body Shot with~

• Infiltrator’s Shot. Range 600. 5 Initiative. Shadow step to ground target and apply x3 vulnerability for 5s in a 120 radius (max 3 targets).

I’d love to see the following:

Skill 2:
Reload Roll – 3 Initiative

Fire a shot that Immobilizes a foe for 1 seconds and Rolls 400 Units in the current direction of movement (backward if stationary), Evading for 1/2 second. On a successful Evade, the next Pistol ability costs no Initiative (2 second duration).

This type of ability would have uses for both P/D and P/P as a disengage skill or a gap closer while chasing foes. Successfully using this ability to reposition in the middle of an Unload while being attacked, and thus Evading, reduces the cost of the next Unload to free if used immediately after Reload Roll.

Additionally, I would slightly reduce the damage of Unload, say 5%, and apply a 10s Vulnerability per hit. This would help in improving P/P as a condi or power option, while also making it increasingly deadly the longer a foe is under sustained fire.

I would also slightly increase the power scaling on Sneak Attack for Power builds.

Honestly I think the 20% damage buff on unload was stupid, yes it’s nice but does it make a difference does it change the set at all? No. It just makes thief like longbow ranger which is something no class should strive for imo. I don’t like the idea of spamming 3 and doing massive damage at all, it’s not skillful in the slightest.

However, I think one thing that could happen that would make p/p decently viable (at least twice as viable as it was before) is the blast finisher dodge on Daredevil needs to go back to being a leap finisher. This along with Pulmonary Impact to use in combination with skillfully timed headshots would make P/P stronger than it ever was before. As you’re gaining stealth on demand that can’t be interrupted, as well as an amazing damage proc that can easily hit for 3k+ which takes skill to use. Both of which making Headshot as well as Black Powder on P/P very strong skills.

MakubeC.3026:

Since the team is looking into Pistol skills, let us have a healthy brainstorm that may or may not inspire them for some of the changes.
Post simple ideas that may make pistols better weapons.

In my opinion, pistols need skills that can be useful fort both p/p power builds and p/d condition builds.

Body shot: Changed to Reload.
Dodge roll sideways. Your next pistol skill bounces and makes foes vulnerable.
Combo finisher: Leap.
Init cost: 3.
Next skill shot bounce: 1
Vulnerability: 3 stacks for 4 seconds.

Evade and leap finisher sound like what p/p needs but I feel like those 2 things shouldn’t be on 1 skill unless you nerf black powder duration.

Next skill shot bounce: none of the shots are worth to be bounced once.

Dodging sideways would be really weird tho: you would have to look 90°s farther than the way you want to travel.

What I propose: change Body Shot to a skill that evades backwards and maybe cause poison since pistol is supposed to be a condi weapon more or less. leap finisher if black powder gets shortened.

Then add stealth to unload if all of the bullets hit.

Actually, Headshot would be a good place for a stealth: two seconds is plenty, if you critically hit. This would go along thematically with critting someone in the head, which would be like hitting them in the eyes, making them unable to see you.

Still needs vulnerability on Unload. If rangers can have it on Rapid Fire, then at the very least, we deserve it at just 900 range.

The one trait pistol has, though, needs a pretty drastic overhaul to be taken seriously.

if bound dodge became leap then daredevile trait line will become more p/p trait line
thus we will need more pistol oriented traits there also.

the leap would give the p/p ability to stealth but it wont fix the problem much as we need 1 evade skill/shadow step like any other weapon set

also 1200 range is must to par with others range

oEnvy.3064:

Honestly I think the 20% damage buff on unload was stupid, yes it’s nice but does it make a difference does it change the set at all? No. It just makes thief like longbow ranger which is something no class should strive for imo. I don’t like the idea of spamming 3 and doing massive damage at all, it’s not skillful in the slightest.

However, I think one thing that could happen that would make p/p decently viable (at least twice as viable as it was before) is the blast finisher dodge on Daredevil needs to go back to being a leap finisher. This along with Pulmonary Impact to use in combination with skillfully timed headshots would make P/P stronger than it ever was before. As you’re gaining stealth on demand that can’t be interrupted, as well as an amazing damage proc that can easily hit for 3k+ which takes skill to use. Both of which making Headshot as well as Black Powder on P/P very strong skills.

People make this same argument over and over again , that being spamming a given attack is not “skillful”.

What is the difference between pressing the AA over and over again or pressing number 3 over and over again? What is more skillful about pressing number 2 because it off cooldown and then pressing number 3 because it off cooldown? It does not take more “skill” to press different buttons.

The skill is when and where you use a skill. If an enemy nearly dead after having spammed unload twice and I got enough Ini for one more unload which will down him then it not more skillful to press number 5 for a blind field just because it not spamming a skill. Indeed it would be rather stupid. Finish him and if it takes a spam do it.

People that spam unload over and over again , just as those that do this with heartseeker are not properly managing their INI and will tend to fail. The thief class is built around the ability to use the same skill several times in a row. it does not mean they SHOULD at any given time or that they must but when it advantageous to do so then they should not let this “it not skillful” meme stop them from doing such.

P/P certainly needs fixes to make the other components of the set more usable but the issue is not that Unload does too much damage , it that the other skills do not add to the build enough utility or survival to warrant spending INI on.

Since p/P now single target high burst damage in the set is warranted else there no reason to use the set. The issue is now fixing the other components.

I would like to see ricochet come back baseline.

Vital Shot and Body Shot should be made into the #1 skill. Vital Shot would fire 3 times, at about 1.5x the current speed, causing 1 stack of Bleed per shot. Body Shot would then follow, with a bit of extra time to aim, applying 1-3 stacks of Vulnerability. (Names should probably be flipped too. Vital Shot sounds more powerful than Body Shot.)

I like the suggestion of Reload for #2.

For Unload, I think it could be cool to see this skill grow more powerful the more you use it in succession. The idea here is that you are improving your aim by repeatedly using the same attack. For example, maybe it starts out costing 3 initiative with lower damage. After using it, your next Unload within ~2 seconds has increased cost and damage. This would continue up until a certain cap.

Black Powder could be changed to Back Flip. This would be similar to Death Blossom. You flip backwards while spinning, shooting 2-3 times at nearby enemies, crippling them. You use a smoke bomb when landing, granting stealth for a short time.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…
Ankle Shot – triggers “on hit” instead of “on crit hit”
…

Lol… First thing I thought of is: With it being “on crit hit” it should be renamed “Might Be Ankle Shot”, because you did try to shoot for the ankle, just missed… xD And oh man, talk about the RNG behind this one, kind of like the ricochet trait.

:| I think a tooltip/rename is an easier job to do for them. Ankle Shot will/is now known as Might Be Ankle Shot.

I still think moving Vuln to unload along with changing up sundering strikes to make it just proc on hit as well rather then on crit the way to go. Then fix numero 2. That reload is a nice idea.

PSA: bound was a leap on bwe, but was bugged so that the landing spot determined if you activated a combo

as for pistol changes, the auto attack could use an attack speed increase
body shot is too weak for the ini cost, could use something like a pulmonary impact or a more useful effect than 1s immo but maybe does no damage so it can be comboed from stealth
unload is fine, if ricochet comes back in anyway it needs to be a trait, replace ankle shots since it’s garbage in current form – maybe with revealed your shots bounce. just have ricochet be a proc that has to use more strategy than spamming unload for 50% crit/hit to bounce

head shot and black powder are fine

Woah guys, relax. Most of these are terrible ideas. Remove the immob? Give them built in teleports? Give us built in leap finishers? Do you guys have any idea how insane these ideas are?

@OP

Personally, I think the p/p kit is fine except for black powder. Wasting the initiative mid fight isn’t worth it and I have SR/shadow step if I REALLY wanna secure a stomp. Let them give d/p their black powder, but give p/p their own #5 that they can actually utilize. How’s about a mini leap backwards the also applies cripple. Wouldn’t be a leap finisher, but it would be a dodge (not as potent as s/d), but gives a ranged spec like this a few options for repositioning because currently, p/p without the necessary utilities cannot work worth a kitten .

SlayerSixx.5763:

Woah guys, relax. Most of these are terrible ideas. Remove the immob? Give them built in teleports? Give us built in leap finishers? Do you guys have any idea how insane these ideas are?

@OP

Personally, I think the p/p kit is fine except for black powder. Wasting the initiative mid fight isn’t worth it and I have SR/shadow step if I REALLY wanna secure a stomp. Let them give d/p their black powder, but give p/p their own #5 that they can actually utilize. How’s about a mini leap backwards the also applies cripple. Wouldn’t be a leap finisher, but it would be a dodge (not as potent as s/d), but gives a ranged spec like this a few options for repositioning because currently, p/p without the necessary utilities cannot work worth a kitten .

You do realize Pistols are the only thief’s weapons without a teleport, leap finisher, or an evade right? Having all of them (SB has two) is going over the top imo, but giving it access to one would be only fair. You suggest changing Black Powder, one of the few ok skills in pistol builds, say p/p is fine and call other simple (sometimes not so simple) suggestions OP, so I don’t know what to say to you. I think I fell for the bait. Anyways, I will not be replying anymore so we don’t derail the thread.

Keep them raining fellas.

You do realize pistols are the only ranged weapon set for thief that can actually put out some serious burst? Hell, build it right and you’ll do 1.5x the damage of a zerk rapid fire with a single unload….

That can be spammed nearly 3 times back to back if you go for broke and blow all of your initiative.

SB is a utility weapon. Poison fields, blast finishers, evades, teleports all in one weapon with a smidge of cleave to clear weaker AI.

Black powder is great for d/p. Hell, its half the reason why thieves have stuck to the meta for so long.

For P/P, on the other hand, what could you honestly do with black powder that justifies the initiative being spent? Blind spam with unload? Blinds don’t stack, so all of that initiative spent for one blind? Securing stomps? Just dodge it like everyone else. If you’re 1v1, you’ll get the stomp anyways. If you’re xvx, you’ll get interrupted regardless. What could you do with it? Vs a warrior, get some blind uptime? Except the warrior wouldn’t be dumb enough to just stand there and take it and would, instead, use that time you’re not hitting him to let his signet get to work or even mount some sort of counter attack. Or avoid an attack, maybe? If you see the attack coming, headshot is a far more efficient means of intercepting the attack. If you don’t see it coming (insert meta mes/thief), you’re probably dead if you stand around for too long.

I honestly believe black powder can be changed for something with more universal utility, but to ask for a teleport? S/D has a 600 range teleport and that stuff, when used right, makes them untouchable. Imagine a S/D thief that can do all of their damage from 600, let alone 900 (or 1050 if you traited for it) range and still teleport all over the place and have a ranged, near instant cast daze for little initiative cost. Sounds ridiculously op, no?

Black powder should stealth the thief that uses it instantly for one – two seconds.

Remove the smoke field and allow for the SA stealth duration to apply to it to balance it out for d/p. Sounds fair.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Remove the smoke field and allow for the SA stealth duration to apply to it to balance it out for d/p. Sounds fair.

This. you can even remove the blind on projectile (but keep projectile finisher at 100%) since nobody cares that it blinds. if you want to blind you use shadow shot.

That way P/P is instantly viable, and we have a reason to take fleet shadow in Acrobatics.

Alternatively, remove the projectile altogether and keep the smoke field to allow for blindstomps.

I personally dont care as long as the stealth is instant.

This is my way how I would change P/P to make the Pistol Skill in general more useful.
But these changes would lead imo also to the point, that Shortbow would need to get then after some significant changes so that both weapons stay viable options, so I will post changes for both weapons here:

P/P

1) Precision Shot > Body Shot > Burning Bullets
The Auto Attack becomes a new 3 Skill Combo with two Follow Up Flip Skills

Precision Shot first deals small Damage but causes Vulnerability.
Body Shot then hits the Target, letting you regain Initiative if the Target suffered on Vulnerability, more Initiative, so more Vulnerability (to bring this skill more back to the GW1 original effect)
Burning Bullets as last part of the Combo causes then 3 fast shots of Blindness and Burning for a short time, but deals more and more increased damage, if it hits already burning targets with increased damage per Burning Stacks.

2) Bullet Time
Perform a quick Shadow Back Step that counts as a Backwards Leap that let you evade incoming hits, while regaining with the next used Weapon Skill some Initiative.
Shoot while you perform the Shadow Backstep at your Target 3 unblockable very fast Shots that will Slow per Hit the Target for 1 Second

3) Desperado’s Staccatto
Unload your Pistols all at once, shooting at your Target 8 Bullets, which have all a chance of 25% to bounce to another nearby target. Bounced Bullets will cause to the Target and nearby hit target a Stack of Bleeding.
While you perform this Skill, will you cause a Blind Field around you from all the blasted off Black Powder which lets you gain Stealth after Bullet Times slowing Attacks, if you use right after this Skill Bullet Time to leap back through it.

4) Overcharge Blaster
Overcharge your Pistols with Black Powder. So longer you charge up , so more Initiative this will cost, but generates more Charges for your other Pistol Skills to use Overcharged Skills.

5) Head Shot
Shoot at your Target, causing Daze for 1second, which cumulates to other Stuns and Dazes, raising their duration by that 1 Second to keep the target longer unable to move. Causes high Confusion also if you hit with it an already stunned/dazed Target
———-

Overcharge Skills
When you overcharge your Pistols, Skill 2, 3, 4 and 5 turn into new Flip Skills for as many charges as long you overcharged your Pistols (press and hold down 4) (Inspiration comes from Tales of Xillia’s Alvin ^^)

2) changes from Bullet Time to Bullet Storm

Bullet Storm
Perform a Vault like Jump over the heads of your targets, shooting from above of them and damage all targets in your ground target area and gain while you perform this Skill Stability and Fury.
Animations will be similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_pH9ojkjA
Look at 3:11 near the end

3) changes from Desperado’s Staccatto to Devilish Ricochet

Devilish Ricochet
Works basically like an upgraded Desperado’s Staccatto, it will have a 50% chance to let Bullets bounce and bounced Bullets will not cause only Bleeding, but steal also Boons that you and your nearby allies will gain.

4) Overcharged Blaster changes into Marksman’s Wager

Marksman’s Wager
Marksman’s Wager is so powerful, that it breaks through everything, always hitting the target. It deals damage to all targets in line and launches all hit targets back.
Using this Skill will instantly cost you all your charges, but it is more powerful so more charges you use for it, by having increased range and damage per consumeable charge.
This skill is unblockable.

5) Head Shot changes into Marauder’s Shot

Marauder’s Shot
Performing Marauder’s Shot deals for every ally nearby increased hits and lets you gain Might per every nearby ally also too. If the hit target is near any of your allies, then becomes Marauder’s Shot unblockable, causes Torment and your Steal gets slightly recharged.

This sounds very interesting, but I’m not too keen on ramping up our damage any higher than it already is, unless you plan to compensate by nerfing unovercharged damage by 25% and then buffing our overcharged attacks by 50% (so they do 25% more damage than what we’re doing now). There also has to be a form of counterplay for the overcharged attacks, like boon stripping effects it and strips one charge for every boon stripped.

Also, lol@burning bullets. ALL ABOARD THE FLAME TRAIN.

But in all seriousness. This sounds like a great idea, we should refine this more. Might even become another specialization anet will sell for another 50$ x.×....

All I need is instant cast stealth on bp.

Easy to implement, makes p/p viable, reason to pick Fleet Shadow.

Not even going to worry about damage or condi tweaking, people are crying that p/p is too strong already. We wont get away with anything better; I think we should just take the 20% and run while we can re: that.

^i agree. I suppose that+fleet shadow would also solve our mobility problems.

And this is how i’d Change Shortbow based on those P/P changes I proposed

1) Trick Shot
Deal damag with a 3x bouncing Arrow up to four Targets or hit two targets up to 2 times with it. Steals Boons on Targets that get hit by the same bouncing Arrow again ICD 3s

2) Cluster Bomb
Shoot an explosive Arrow at a range of 1200 with a little arc high enough, that you don’t shoot into wall rims at WvW walls (facepalm) which you can detonate at will.
If you don’t let it cluster, then it will cause a big explosion that will cause vulnerability and torment to the nearby targets and dazes foes that were under 50% health
If you let it detonate, then you will damage up to 10 targets in a much wider spread area (+50% more radius range from now)

3) Disabling Shot
Shot at a Target, causing the target to get dazed and evade forward, avoiding all incoming hits at that moment, counting as a leap. If you hit with Disabling Shot an already stunned, dazed, feared, taunted or knocked downed target, it will disable afterwards for the target some time to use their Profession Mechanic Skills (so no Attunement Changing for the disabled time period, no Steals, no Death Shroud ect.)

4) Choking Gas
Shoot a Poison Field for the duration of 5 seconds, which will periodically cause 2 Stacks of Poison per Second and causes Targets, that stand longer than 3 seconds in the field to get dazed. Shooting an undetonated Cluster Bomb into a Choking Gas will cause a big Explosion, which will weaken foes and launch targets away while losing also a Boon.

5) Infiltrator’s Shot
Shadow Step to your Target Location with a range of 1200 and blind all nearby foes in a range of 240 around you.
Gain 3s Stealth if your Health was above the Threshold of 90%

Giving stealth to P/P is not the solution to any of the P/P’s problems.

What do you intend to accomplish giving P/P stealth?

Why would any P/P Thief pick Fleet Shadow over Vigorous Recovery? Dodge already gives them Swiftness which makes Vigorous Recovery a better choice. 50% movement for 3s is meh.

In addition, you can’t spec for both SA and Acro at the same time without hurting your DPS. Another reason why stealth is not the solution.

Besides, giving P/P its own #5 other than Black Powder mean that they have to implement what I’ve been suggesting for a long time now — Dual-wielding replaces all 5 skills instead of just #3 skill. This way both P/P and D/D will have their own viable skill set without affecting the other weapon set variant.

What I’d intent with Stealth to P/P?

Simple:

1) More general Access to Stealth Attack on Demand
2) Better Defense, because Stealth is the Thieve’s Main Damage Mitigator besides of Blinds and Dodges and P/P simply lacks the own made Stealth, while you have with most other Weapon Sets own made Stealth, with the Exception of S7P, but that has therefore on Demand Daze and is a much stronger Control Build, so you won’t need as much Stealth
3) Unseen Positioning Reasons, especially with Fleet Shadow
4) Better Survival as P/P, especially against Conditions, cause Stealth is one of the Thieves only ways of havign viable good periodically Conditional Removal and passive Health Regeneration to stay alive long enough agaisnt all the current OP Condition Spam.

I don’t choose vigorous recovery at all on my build, I honestly prefer pain response because of the horrendous amounts of condi flying around nowadays. I can’t justify the use of vigorous recovery because I don’t even pop my heal skill most of the time. Fleet shadow, on the other hand, gives P/P some much needed bursts of mobility if you change black powder to a straight up stealth skill (not that I’d still consider it over pain response).

But then again, changing to entirely to something that suits p/P’s needs is also a good idea

If anything I think one skill that could use a replacement is body shot. It did vulnerability for almost no amount of time, now it does immobilize for almost no amount of time, clearly the skill is just a band aid on a broken arm. Let’s amputate it and replace it with something that offers more utility like a brief evade. That reload idea higher up actually seemed really cool

I myself think that P/P should only have access to stealth via combo (Black Powder + another skill). This makes it cost more ini so that it cannot be spammable. Imagine playing against a 1200 ranger that could stealth indefinitely at will. That would not be fun.

Another thing I think is that P/P should not be a condi set. The condi are meant to be p/d and d/d (having SB as hybrid between condi/dmg/movility).

From those ideals comes my idea to *Reload: a skill that provides the little mobility p/d and p/p lack, and also gives p/p high cost access to stealth. This works because skill #2 is present both in p/p and p/d and really, all other skills are fine. (Just need a little speed boost and with the recent damage boost we’re all set).

@Orpheal.
I like the overcharging mechanic, but remember that given thieves ability to spam skills, the balance of them should be very closely looked at.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Why would any P/P Thief pick Fleet Shadow over Vigorous Recovery? Dodge already gives them Swiftness which makes Vigorous Recovery a better choice. 50% movement for 3s is meh.

In addition, you can’t spec for both SA and Acro at the same time without hurting your DPS.

Former: I’d pick it over vigorous recovery because instant cast stealth + 3 seconds of swiftness is better than having to waste a dodge for swiftness. Saving the dodge takes care of the lack of vigor. Also, Fleet shadow and instant cast stealth would resolve the mobility issues of P/P, because that’s 50% msi ,45% when in combat on demand, untargetable for 6 ini.

Latter: Daredevil is coming. Slotting DD would take priority over SA.

Running Zerker would be feasible with SA/ Acro if P/P gave stealth. Glassy ranged evasion is alright.

MakubeC.3026:

I myself think that P/P should only have access to stealth via combo (Black Powder + another skill). This makes it cost more ini so that it cannot be spammable. Imagine playing against a 1200 ranger that could stealth indefinitely at will. That would not be fun.

P/P is 900 range, but point taken. Instant cast still appealing to me though, and would only require changing one skill instead of messing with how pistol shots interact with one another, with one exception that isnt often used for its finisher properties.:

Either instant cast Back Powder stealth with an increased initiative cost (7? 8?)

or

Make body shot a blast finisher.

Alternatively, reduce the cost of Black powder to 4 and make it a blast finisher that also lays a field, so it combos with itself.

SlayerSixx.5763:

I don’t choose vigorous recovery at all on my build, I honestly prefer pain response because of the horrendous amounts of condi flying around nowadays.

Ever since Withdraw became a Trick, I switched from Pain Response to Vig. Recovery.

I can’t justify the use of vigorous recovery because I don’t even pop my heal skill most of the time.

You have to have taken damage else Pain Response won’t even proc. And even if PR procs, assuming that you have 15k HP, you’re down by 3k health already. Removing the condition sooner every 15 seconds is better in my opinion.

Fleet shadow, on the other hand, gives P/P some much needed bursts of mobility if you change black powder to a straight up stealth skill (not that I’d still consider it over pain response).

Dodge into Swiftness is not a burst in mobility? If you really really need to create that gap, you can always spec fo Uncatchable.

With the Elite DD, you can even go overkill by spec-ing for both Uncatchable AND Lotus Training.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Former: I’d pick it over vigorous recovery because instant cast stealth + 3 seconds of swiftness is better than having to waste a dodge for swiftness. Saving the dodge takes care of the lack of vigor. Also, Fleet shadow and instant cast stealth would resolve the mobility issues of P/P, because that’s 50% msi ,45% when in combat on demand, untargetable for 6 ini.

The problem is, you do no damage while in stealth. It doesn’t help P/P at all.

Latter: Daredevil is coming. Slotting DD would take priority over SA.

It’s a sad truth.

Running Zerker would be feasible with SA/ Acro if P/P gave stealth

The DPS of that build is not something that you expect. Besides, without either DA or CS, your DPS will take an even bigger toll. Stealthing is alway counter to DPS since you deal no damage while in stealth.

Let’s say for instance you do 2k DPS — while in stealth for 3s, you lose 6k of damage output — sure you run faster because of Fleet Shadow, but it doesn’t solve the problem instead it creates another.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The DPS of that build is not something that you expect. Besides, without either DA or CS, your DPS will take an even bigger toll. Stealthing is alway counter to DPS since you deal no damage while in stealth.

I understand this, but in this instance the stealth is useful for maintaining 900r between you and your target.

Also, the problem with p/p is it has no mobility. we just got a 20% dps increase on it, so I don’t see why “but dps” would be a problem when the build is pretty much stationary as is.

Adding stealth to P/P is the simplest fix that can be implemented without reworking all the weapon sets with pistol mainhand, all the sets with pistol offhand, or unload.

The problem being created is indeed mobility/stealth does no dps, but isnt that precisely what p/p needs? Without it it’s just facetank and die.

simple solution is to make #2 of the pistol a leap finisher
p/d wont use it but can combo with others combo
p/p will use it with #5 to stealth if needed to reposition or disengage
the hight cost of 6+4 initiative will prevent from spamming if you want to do some unload dmg
also #2 skill is unusable at the moment as 1 sec of immobilize which as for now every other class has immunity/decrease/cleanse of immobilize/chill/cripple and the 3 sec of 5 vulnerability WOW too op.

messiah.1908:

simple solution is to make #2 of the pistol a leap finisher
p/d wont use it but can combo with others combo
p/p will use it with #5 to stealth if needed to reposition or disengage
the hight cost of 6+4 initiative will prevent from spamming if you want to do some unload dmg
also #2 skill is unusable at the moment as 1 sec of immobilize which as for now every other class has immunity/decrease/cleanse of immobilize/chill/cripple and the 3 sec of 5 vulnerability WOW too op.

leap is okay too. Maybe a backwards evade or something.

That would require they change the animations though, and they are usually slow to do anim changes.

just saying.

messiah.1908:

simple solution is to make #2 of the pistol a leap p/p will use it with #5 to stealth if needed to reposition or disengage

Like somebody else has mentioned through these threads…. this won’t work well for p/p because most of it’s damage comes from Unload unlike the other build’s much more potent auto-attacks.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The DPS of that build is not something that you expect. Besides, without either DA or CS, your DPS will take an even bigger toll. Stealthing is alway counter to DPS since you deal no damage while in stealth.

I understand this, but in this instance the stealth is useful for maintaining 900r between you and your target.

You can accomplish this without stealth. I do it all the time.

Also, the problem with p/p is it has no mobility. we just got a 20% dps increase on it, so I don’t see why “but dps” would be a problem when the build is pretty much stationary as is.

There was a time when Body Shot applies a longer lasting Vulnerability where Unload can use as damage boost — for whatever reason, they made Body Shot to shoot bolas and nerf the Vulnerability. Then it just went downhill from there. One bad design after another.

Boosting the damage of Unload from last patch is ok, it’s like bringing back that nerfed Vulnerability with something even better.

However, even with this damage increase, it’s not a boost relative to what other professions did get. So yes, damage is one of the problems besides animation.

Adding stealth to the weapon set will only hurt its damage, not improve it.

Adding stealth to P/P is the simplest fix that can be implemented without reworking all the weapon sets with pistol mainhand, all the sets with pistol offhand, or unload.

That’s not a fix, that’s a band-aid. If they intend to fix it then they should fix it entirely and not create more problem. Stealth is the root of many problems, I rather not see them build around this problem.

The problem being created is indeed mobility/stealth does no dps, but isnt that precisely what p/p needs? Without it it’s just facetank and die.

You can be mobile and maintain DPS. You can’t, however, be in stealth and maintain DPS. Your suggested mobility relies on stealth, which is counter to DPS.

Revengeance.8956:

messiah.1908:

simple solution is to make #2 of the pistol a leap p/p will use it with #5 to stealth if needed to reposition or disengage

Like somebody else has mentioned through these threads…. this won’t work well for p/p because most of it’s damage comes from Unload unlike the other build’s much more potent auto-attacks.

stealth give you the ability to reposition fast and sneak attack which does mini unload and doesnt cost initiative
without stealth we are easy target

messiah.1908:

Revengeance.8956:

messiah.1908:

simple solution is to make #2 of the pistol a leap p/p will use it with #5 to stealth if needed to reposition or disengage

Like somebody else has mentioned through these threads…. this won’t work well for p/p because most of it’s damage comes from Unload unlike the other build’s much more potent auto-attacks.

stealth give you the ability to reposition fast and sneak attack which does mini unload and doesnt cost initiative
without stealth we are easy target

What you are saying is true, but I don’t think the idea of P/P is to be like D/P where you rely heavily on stealth, in fact the new changes they brought to daredevil traits and the ones currently in testing are showing clearly just that intention.

And with the new buff to damage on Unload I think there should be a better utility use/need for the stealth skill for P/P (how sword has for example a daze). Just another mini-unload doesn’t seem all that great for this set to be honest.

Revengeance.8956:

messiah.1908:

Revengeance.8956:

messiah.1908:

simple solution is to make #2 of the pistol a leap p/p will use it with #5 to stealth if needed to reposition or disengage

Like somebody else has mentioned through these threads…. this won’t work well for p/p because most of it’s damage comes from Unload unlike the other build’s much more potent auto-attacks.

with stealth p/p will never be like d/p as d/p use all his initiatives wirh HS+PB and use BS and AA which are not costing any initiatives while p/p burst comes from unload.
the stealth is great for reposition and sneak attack which can do 3-4k dmg .

i fought against an engi with 3 block skills, stealth so i need some time to do the same in some other way. the is a reason why you dont see anymore s/d in pvp

also stealth gives us more tactic gameplay

stealth give you the ability to reposition fast and sneak attack which does mini unload and doesnt cost initiative
without stealth we are easy target

What you are saying is true, but I don’t think the idea of P/P is to be like D/P where you rely heavily on stealth, in fact the new changes they brought to daredevil traits and the ones currently in testing are showing clearly just that intention.

And with the new buff to damage on Unload I think there should be a better utility use/need for the stealth skill for P/P (how sword has for example a daze). Just another mini-unload doesn’t seem all that great for this set to be honest.

Revengeance.8956:

messiah.1908:

Revengeance.8956:

messiah.1908:

simple solution is to make #2 of the pistol a leap p/p will use it with #5 to stealth if needed to reposition or disengage

Like somebody else has mentioned through these threads…. this won’t work well for p/p because most of it’s damage comes from Unload unlike the other build’s much more potent auto-attacks.

stealth give you the ability to reposition fast and sneak attack which does mini unload and doesnt cost initiative
without stealth we are easy target

What you are saying is true, but I don’t think the idea of P/P is to be like D/P where you rely heavily on stealth, in fact the new changes they brought to daredevil traits and the ones currently in testing are showing clearly just that intention.

And with the new buff to damage on Unload I think there should be a better utility use/need for the stealth skill for P/P (how sword has for example a daze). Just another mini-unload doesn’t seem all that great for this set to be honest.

The leap would do the trick IMO. Remember we already have it via Bound now on the DD’s trait line. So, all we need is a BP and a dodge. This will prove to be very annoying as it comes really cheaply.
But I’m afraid that alone won’t do the trick. We need some more utility on the skills. The leap/dodge on #2 for example. Now you’ll have two ways of damage mitigation: #2 and #5 + Bound for stealth.

Add a third pistol!