Guild Wars 2

First off, let me give you some background. I play Thief as my main character, with about 700 PvP matches played on it and 70% win rate in both 8v8 and tournaments.

Now, that we have (hopefully) “LOL GOT PWNED NOOB L2P!!!!111oneeleven” comments out of the way, let me propose how we can fix the ‘Press 2 to win’ problem.

1. Heartseeker
I think we all agree those guys are a plague. Usually dumb, not fun to play with/against, and main reason thieves as a class got bad rep. While easy to counter 1v1, extremely annoying in teamfights.

Now, how do we remove them?
Heartseeker needs to be made into actual finisher. This can be done by changing damage tresholds and severely reducing damage on high HP target:
Target below 20% – Current <25% damage.
Target below 40% – Current <50% damage.
Target above 40% – Same damage as autoattack.

This would remove the problem of Heartseeker spamming, while still keeping it a good finisher.

2. Pistol Whip
Ok, let’s get this straight – anyone who sits still through whole duration of un-hasted PW has no right to complain. It’s like entering into Hundred Blades of your own free will and complaining Warrior is OP.

It’s whole diffirent story when we throw in Haste though, as the target becomes pretty much permastunned.
Using Haste however is an answer to the main issue with the skill – being immobilized while channeling it, as you will often end up hitting the air after one second, pretty much wasting 5 initiative.

My suggestion would be to completely remove the stun from PW and in turn make us able to move while channeling it. That would allow the skill to actually hit with all the attacks without having to use Haste, while still being avoidable, Haste or not.

They could just give Pistol Whip a short immobilize rather than a stun. At least they can try to interrupt us rather than be forced to attempt to use a break stun and roll out of the way.

Would you like to see a warrior running about with 100 blades? Thought not.

Nande.6810:

Would you like to see a warrior running about with 100 blades? Thought not.

I wouldn’t care, really. Just as easy to counter. Perhaps even easier if they stopped using stuns/knockdowns prior to it. Wouldn’t even need stunbreak if you missed a dodge.

And 100b does about twice the PW damage.

Sure, it’s easy to counter. Still doesn’t justify making it usable on the move.

I think, they should rework the whole concept of PW. Make it maybe a two hit combo, like Flanking Strike. Right now it feels either borderline useless(without Haste), or op(with Haste).

You are wrong and not as good as you think, both these abilities are fine.

Pistol Whip is fine as is, it’s already been nerfed. There’s a cast time before the stun that didn’t used to be there forcing you to immobilize before using it pretty much, players can also easily dodge out of it after the stun wears off, missing most of the damage.

It’s very easy to counter and a good opponent will break stun right after they see haste. I don’t even use haste anymore on my S/P thief because it’s so easy to counter. I can only use PW against well, bad players or downed players because it’s faster and more likely to be lethal than doing the finishing animation. Instead I use rage sigils and the critical strikes trait, and I do my pistol whips when one of those procs otherwise, then it’s more of a surprise. People don’t see an animation to recognize quickness there. It’s just SURPRISE MOTHERKITTEN! Not reliable, but fun when it happens.

It’s great in WvW where you do have bad players who will not react fast enough to not get slaughtered by it. Against skilled opponents… it’s dicey at best.

Not only will skilled opponents recognize you using haste and then break out… they will also know you can’t dodge for 5s and have free reign to beat the bejeebus out of you.

What I don’t get is….people are always attacking PW and HS because of PW/HS + Haste spam….why is no one attacking Haste? I mean, if that is the source of the issues everyone is having, why are we not discussing fixes for that instead of discussing fixes for core abilities that are only causing trouble *during * Haste?

I do not agree nor like this thread, I’m only taking the time to post here as I oppose anyone calling someone else “dumb” or a “plague” because they do not conform to YOUR way of playing and prefer to use DIFFERENT skills then you. Let’s leave the game just the way it is and go complain about the high cost of gas or something….This thread was spam from the start.

Did you miss the part where Heartseeker was already nerfed in the exact respect that you’re trying to nerf it even further? Even before the nerf spamming it wasn’t effective against good players, and currently it’s not even that effective against bad players. Trying to nerf it further just proves that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Pistol Whip is fine as is as well.

The ONLY problem that needs addressed here is haste. And that’s not just haste, it’s the quickness effect in general that needs a game-wide nerf. It’s currently a 100% IAS boost that can’t be removed. Cut it down to 50% boost, make it a boon, problem solved.

bwillb.2165:

Did you miss the part where Heartseeker was already nerfed in the exact respect that you’re trying to nerf it even further? Even before the nerf spamming it wasn’t effective against good players, and currently it’s not even that effective against bad players. Trying to nerf it further just proves that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Pistol Whip is fine as is as well.

The ONLY problem that needs addressed here is haste. And that’s not just haste, it’s the quickness effect in general that needs a game-wide nerf. It’s currently a 100% IAS boost that can’t be removed. Cut it down to 50% boost, make it a boon, problem solved.

Make it 33% like the top IAS in GW1, and then you don’t have to stack so many negatives with it and can give it out more as a boon.

possible it could end up needing that low, but I am really not a fan of that heavy of a nerf in one swoop. Take a little and test, if it’s still too powerful take a little more.

Possibly., I’m just saying that figure because it’s what I remember from GW1.

Yeah, a lot was different in GW1 though. In GW1 you could pretty much have 100% uptime of 33% IAS.

I think Heartseeker is in a good place after the nerf. The problem isn’t Heartseeker, but bad players gearing their characters poorly for PvP and exploding to really simple stuff like Heartseeker spam. Heartseeker spam is a sort of bad player detector, not only for the guy doing it, but for the baddies getting owned by it as well.

The problem with Pistol Whip isn’t Pistol Whip but Haste. Haste does stupid things with every ability that applies CC, since it allows you to stack it much more heavily than intended. Haste is a balance problem in general and hopefully will be changed substantially in a future patch.

if they did make heartseaker a finisher with what you have it would make the thief more lethal.

the way the skill is now, “noobs” can spam it and burn through all of their initiative in about 3 seconds and think nothing of it. or you can use the skill they way its designed to be used (basically what you want it to be officially used for) and it is a powerhouse.

the only difference is it will take people less time to figure out spamming heartseaker is almost always a bad idea.

unless your running from a thief… then your just asking for trouble by running from the most mobile class in the game who becomes the deadliest class in the game when they are hitting u in the back.

Why can’t they just remove haste/quickness and be done with it?
We’re not the only profession that can absolutely destroy people with quickness.
Pistol whip and Heartseeker don’t need adjustments, haste does.

This post is just plain stupid, and as usual, focusses on HS/PW as though they’re broken. They’re perfectly fine as is, it’s Haste and therefore Quickness that is the biggest problem for all burst builds across all classes. The speed needs to be decreased to 25/33% across all classes.

I completely agree with most of you. The only problem is, you guys think in 1v1, while that was not the case in my post. Yes, Heartseeker spammers are easy to counter 1v1. Not so much however, when they’re in a pack. If 3-4 of those focus you, there is very little you can do to survive. They don’t even need to use Haste. I realize it’s not the case in tPvP, but quite common sight in 8v8.

And yes, I do agree that Quickness is one of, if not the biggest balance issue at the moment, be it S/P Thief, GS Warrior or SB Ranger. It needs to be toned down, and the PW change I suggested is supposed to go along with, not instead of Quickness nerf.

Problem I see with Pistol Whip is exactly as ClockworkOrange said. Without Haste it’s borderline useless, as everyone can dodge out of it after 0.5 second. You’ve just used 5 initiative to do 2k damage and can either break animation or spend the rest of it rooted, hitting the air.
That’s why I think removing the daze and making it usable on the move would balance the skill out nicely, making it actually useful without the Haste. Enemies would still be able to evade it, but there will be actually a chance to get all hits in.

If 3-4 of those focus you, there is very little you can do to survive.

if 3-4 ANYTHING built for burst focus you, you’re going to have a bad time.

Without Haste it’s borderline useless, as everyone can dodge out of it after 0.5 second.

Now you’re the one only thinking about 1v1 >:D

bwillb.2165:

if 3-4 ANYTHING built for burst focus you, you’re going to have a bad time.

Yeah, I know. Actually, I just watched some team’s vid of a match they played against me and couple guildmates, turns out they had red mark on me 90% of the time :P.
Diffirence between HS and most of other meele abilities is range though. If you dodge/get swiftness/create distance in any other way, they have to catch up to you or use gap closers before they can hack away at you. HS is a gap closer on its own ^^.

bwillb.2165:

Now you’re the one only thinking about 1v1 >:D

You got me, wondered if someone would point it out :D. Well, in teamfights people other than your targets can dodge out instantly as they won’t be stunned ;>

Harrier.9380:

bwillb.2165:

if 3-4 ANYTHING built for burst focus you, you’re going to have a bad time.

Yeah, I know. Actually, I just watched some team’s vid of a match they played against me and couple guildmates, turns out they had red mark on me 90% of the time :P.
Diffirence between HS and most of other meele abilities is range though. If you dodge/get swiftness/create distance in any other way, they have to catch up to you or use gap closers before they can hack away at you. HS is a gap closer on its own ^^.

Heartseeker is a bit of a gap closer, yes, but it’s not like it does much damage if the target is above 50% health. It’s probably one of the most expensive gap closers you’ll find. Also if you’re using ranged weapons, you don’t need gap closers. Get 4 engineers focused on you and you’re really in trouble as they play ping-pong with your lifeless body.

bwillb.2165:

bwillb.2165:

Now you’re the one only thinking about 1v1 >:D

You got me, wondered if someone would point it out. Well, in teamfights people other than your targets can dodge out instantly as they won’t be stunned ;>

But what about your own teammates?

bwillb.2165:

Heartseeker is a bit of a gap closer, yes, but it’s not like it does much damage if the target is above 50% health. It’s probably one of the most expensive gap closers you’ll find. Also if you’re using ranged weapons, you don’t need gap closers. Get 4 engineers focused on you and you’re really in trouble as they play ping-pong with your lifeless body.

Let me remind you, we are discussing HS spamming, so a case where your main damage ability is also your gap closer :P. You’re right about ranged weapons, just wanted to compare other meele classes though. Also, have you ever seen 4 Engineers on one team? In 8v8 there’s like 1 Engi per 10 Thieves :P.

Also, I find hammer Guardian to be the best ping-pong player. Ever tried trapping enemy between Sanctuary and hammer 5? Fun times. Two guardians can pretty much play a match using your body as a ball.

Man, we’re getting sidetracked.

bwillb.2165:

But what about your own teammates?

I can’t hit my own teammates with PW 0.o
Ah, you mean… Well I guess you could have your team set up some serious CC to help you with your burst. Utility slots are very valuable though and not sure how many classes got this kind of stuff as weapon skills. Hammer 5 on Guardian comes to mind, trapping people inside the circle…

Harrier.9380:

I completely agree with most of you. The only problem is, you guys think in 1v1, while that was not the case in my post. Yes, Heartseeker spammers are easy to counter 1v1. Not so much however, when they’re in a pack. If 3-4 of those focus you, there is very little you can do to survive. They don’t even need to use Haste. I realize it’s not the case in tPvP, but quite common sight in 8v8.

And yes, I do agree that Quickness is one of, if not the biggest balance issue at the moment, be it S/P Thief, GS Warrior or SB Ranger. It needs to be toned down, and the PW change I suggested is supposed to go along with, not instead of Quickness nerf.

Problem I see with Pistol Whip is exactly as ClockworkOrange said. Without Haste it’s borderline useless, as everyone can dodge out of it after 0.5 second. You’ve just used 5 initiative to do 2k damage and can either break animation or spend the rest of it rooted, hitting the air.
That’s why I think removing the daze and making it usable on the move would balance the skill out nicely, making it actually useful without the Haste. Enemies would still be able to evade it, but there will be actually a chance to get all hits in.

Harrier that ruins half of the use of pistol whip. Half of a GOOD use of pistol whip is interrupting a skill and then following through with damage.

I have shadow stepped into a warrior who just bull’s charged a teammate, and interrupted 100b, saving my teammate while also doing a substantial amount of damage to the warrior before they rolled away, wasting the warrior’s cooldown.

Sword/Pistol is almost 100% based around control. Decent damage is only a bonus. Everything else is control. Weakness and cripple, daze and stun, blindness.

Besides it would be incredibly imbalanced if we could move around while doing pistol whip, they’d have to junk the damage and totally ruin the skill.

I must say that my main dmg abilities was Dancing dagger, cloak and dagger and back stab as D/D. Mostly because of HS high pct miss chance and that delayed animation often ended in multiple HS when you just wanted to use it as gap closer for C’n’D, leaving you without enough iniative for that:/ (could be fixed by being more patient though)

PW is not something I am an of.. Mostly, as many pointed out already, because of the rooting… I play my thief as a mobile profession, that is why I can’t be bothered with Haste aswell unless it is from another profession or trait. Cause the though you might be able to heavy burst a target e can easily dodge, CC, or use other mechanisms to escape, leaving me without my beloved dodge:/

Nerf this nerf that, Adjust this adjust that. if you people are so amazing why cant you just adopt to the game mechanics?. Im sick of people crying bout PW or Haste or just whatever. Claiming to be Pro in pvp then why do i see u QQ? thief class has been nerfed to the point its barely even played. funny ive met a lot of people mind kittened in RL but in the internet its just way beyond that.

I can add even a better fix for this, remove quickness/haste/etc from all classes and you are good enough.

After that redesign some of the dual skills to be actually useful and have tactical meaning / purpose.

Personally I don’t use haste at all as I really dislike the negative effect of not having endurance – if it would have the same penalty as ranger’s quickening zephyr not to be able to heal for that 4 seconds period I’d probably use it. As of now shadowstep + selected utility for any situation (shadow refuge/scorpion wire/trap x/etc) + signet of shadows provide much better utility and added annoyance for the enemy. Of course this I mean WvW, not really into SPVP personally.

Devildoc.6721:

Half of a GOOD use of pistol whip is interrupting a skill and then following through with damage.

I think Head Shot is superior interrupt, simply because it’s instant and ranged.

Devildoc.6721:

Besides it would be incredibly imbalanced if we could move around while doing pistol whip, they’d have to junk the damage and totally ruin the skill.

Not really, there are other ways to balance it out – making you suspectible to root/slow/interrupt while channeling could balance it out nicely.

Garlic Sensei.4103:

thief class has been nerfed to the point its barely even played.

Have you played any 8v8 match recently? It’s rather easy to notice there are twice as many thieves as all the other classes combined.

Harrier.9380:

Have you played any 8v8 match recently? It’s rather easy to notice there are twice as many thieves as all the other classes combined.

That’s not even close to true… It is a fairly popular class, but I see far more rangers and mesmers and warriors in 8v8 than I do thieves. I’d say thief is about tied with Engineer from my experiences.

No offense, but every poster I’ve seen claims to win 75-80% of their tPvP matches and sPvP matches. C’mon, we all know that’s not true. Now, if you’re a member of a high end team running tPvP all day, I’d believe it. Otherwise, there is no way one single player makes the difference in every single tPvP match enough to win it regardless of teammates guild or pug.

@bwillb Strange. 90% of 8v8 matches I join got 6-8 thieves at least, sometimes up to 10 even.

@Highlet My win rate is 70%. It’s a fact, not a claim. I never said ‘I win matches solo’ though. Winning a match is a team effort, not a single ‘all me, all me’ person.

Harrier.9380:

Devildoc.6721:

Half of a GOOD use of pistol whip is interrupting a skill and then following through with damage.

I think Head Shot is superior interrupt, simply because it’s instant and ranged.

Devildoc.6721:

Besides it would be incredibly imbalanced if we could move around while doing pistol whip, they’d have to junk the damage and totally ruin the skill.

Not really, there are other ways to balance it out – making you suspectible to root/slow/interrupt while channeling could balance it out nicely.

Garlic Sensei.4103:

thief class has been nerfed to the point its barely even played.

Have you played any 8v8 match recently? It’s rather easy to notice there are twice as many thieves as all the other classes combined.

Head shot doesn’t follow through with damage.

When you are sword/pistol, head shot is a SECONDARY interrupt, it’s an interrupt on a person you can’t reach before their skill goes off.

Pistol whip is a primary interrupt, as you can shadow step in, interrupt, and punish in quick succession.

Headshot means, okay I interrupted them… now what.. they’re still too far away.

I use it when steal is down, I’m already leashed to where infiltrator’s strike won’t take me to them, and they’re going to do something IE execute or res someone.

Hell I’ll actually usually use scorpion wire on them instead if that’s up.

OR I’ll use it in PVE if it’s a mob that would kill me too quickitteno melee, and they’re not currently immune to CC.

But generally I’d rather interrupt and follow through with damage than just interrupt and still not be there hitting them.

I see no problem with either of the OP’s issues and, for the record, no amount of experience makes bad ideas good. An idiot who plays 1,000,000,000 matches with an 98.7% win ratio is still an idiot. I’m not saying you’re an idiot I’m just saying that stating “credentials” is irrelevant.

It’s the content that matters.

With that said, if people want to spam heartseeker… please, for all that is holy, encourage them to do so. Single handedly the worst DPS option we have. Let them spam ‘til they turn blue. I’ll face off against a heartseeker spammer in preference to any other class skill combo this game had to offer.

The only people they kill are bads.

Period.

Secondly, complaining that an alpha maneuver (in this case PW) is OP in conjunction with a utility on a CD (Haste) is completely obtuse. Every, I repeat, EVERY class has similar combinations. If this was something that could be spammed you would have merit.

But it can’t.

Someone decides to spec into one of our worst weapon combos on the off chance they can score an insta gib every once in a while. Get over it. Let them have it. Sword + Anything sucks outside of PvE.

Haste is fine. Until it can be spammed I don’t see a problem here. Just people complaining because they’re not fitting it into their builds while other people are sacrificing the slot to do so and that’s driving them insane.

Again, get over it.

I agree with those who say Heartseeker isn’t the problem, Pistol Whip isn’t the problem, and neither is Haste the problem. The problem is Quickness, which is just completely over the top right now, across the board. I run a setup with 2 possible Quickness procs, so I’m basically asking to be nerfed here.

It’s ridiculous how fast people drop when these proc. Not surprisingly, it’s really difficult to balance skills when the output can be either X or 2X. Blizzard learned this lesson back when Mortal Strike was -50% healing, other games have learned it, and no doubt ArenaNet will pick up on it too.

I don’t think a nerf to any particular class ability for granting Quickness is justified, but the effect itself needs a serious look.

lol being able to use Pistol whip while moving is actually the first thing that should be changed about our class before anything else. The dev that added the self root has to be on some serious illegal drugs to add self root to ANY ability to THE mobility based class.
The stun will have to go to, probably turned into a daze, because if u can move while using, a stun will not synergize nor will an immobilize

It can and is spammed. I had a dude hit me with 5 pistol whips in about 5 seconds. I have had a dude use 7 heartseekers in a row on me. WTF

Thief is a broken class as it has no cooldowns. Its the only class that can spam high damage abilities. Its not really fair that with high crit you can just spam them. How about every time a skill like Pistol Whip or HS are used within 5 seconds they cost 50% more initiative?

TBH I am a little tired of people just spamming these skills and thinking they are good.

Secondly, Pistol Whip also has too much damage on it to also include a stun. Its got to be either a medium damage ability with a stun or a high damage ability without. Having both is not balanced.

There are times in SPVP that I can not even get a skill off due to the PW spam. I am just in 10 seconds of stun. Thiefs are broken.

Relentliss.2170:

It can and is spammed. I had a dude hit me with 5 pistol whips in about 5 seconds. I have had a dude use 7 heartseekers in a row on me. WTF

Thief is a broken class as it has no cooldowns. Its the only class that can spam high damage abilities. Its not really fair that with high crit you can just spam them. How about every time a skill like Pistol Whip or HS are used within 5 seconds they cost 50% more initiative?

TBH I am a little tired of people just spamming these skills and thinking they are good.

Secondly, Pistol Whip also has too much damage on it to also include a stun. Its got to be either a medium damage ability with a stun or a high damage ability without. Having both is not balanced.

There are times in SPVP that I can not even get a skill off due to the PW spam. I am just in 10 seconds of stun. Thiefs are broken.

If you’re getting hit by more than 1 pistol whip, just stop son, you’re bad. Heck if you’re CONSISTENTLY getting hit by pistol whip, you’re bad. A thief can surprise attack you with a pistol whip only about once every 45 seconds.. because there’s only a few methods to negate the extremely obvious animation and cast time at the beginning, and no way to negate the self root.

It has high damage and a stun because it has that obvious, easy to avoid tell, and has a self root.

Your suggestion on initiative would also break the entire class.

The class is designed around using the same skill in quick succession, limited by a shared resource, you decide on which skill to use based on what would be best in the given situation.

If we were to have cooldowns on our current skills.. the class would be 100% broken.

Headshot, black powder, and infiltrator’s strike are all very situational skills, they all do extremely low damage.

Dagger/Dagger is honestly the only thief setup that would still function if each skill was given a cooldown, because all the attacks do substantial damage and could be used rotationally. like other classes.

A pistol pistol thief would be even more broken than they already are, shortbow, broken, pistol/dagger broken, dagger/pistol, broken, sword/dagger … well it’s already broken but hey, even more broken.

Thief using any weapon but dagger dagger where you could do a rotation of dancing dagger, leaping death blossom, cloak and dagger, backstab, heartseeker… would be come auto attack: the class.

Ok I am stunned and he winds up and does it again. So if they get one stu n off they can get several if your stun remover is on cd.

Thief is a pathetically op class. Any class with no cd, hitting people for half their health in one hit, in this game is going to be.

Krathalos.3461:

They could just give Pistol Whip a short immobilize rather than a stun. At least they can try to interrupt us rather than be forced to attempt to use a break stun and roll out of the way.

So you want to buff it? Immobilize is possibly the best CC in the game.

Devildoc.6721:

Relentliss.2170:

It can and is spammed. I had a dude hit me with 5 pistol whips in about 5 seconds. I have had a dude use 7 heartseekers in a row on me. WTF

Thief is a broken class as it has no cooldowns. Its the only class that can spam high damage abilities. Its not really fair that with high crit you can just spam them. How about every time a skill like Pistol Whip or HS are used within 5 seconds they cost 50% more initiative?

TBH I am a little tired of people just spamming these skills and thinking they are good.

Secondly, Pistol Whip also has too much damage on it to also include a stun. Its got to be either a medium damage ability with a stun or a high damage ability without. Having both is not balanced.

There are times in SPVP that I can not even get a skill off due to the PW spam. I am just in 10 seconds of stun. Thiefs are broken.

If you’re getting hit by more than 1 pistol whip, just stop son, you’re bad. Heck if you’re CONSISTENTLY getting hit by pistol whip, you’re bad. A thief can surprise attack you with a pistol whip only about once every 45 seconds.. because there’s only a few methods to negate the extremely obvious animation and cast time at the beginning, and no way to negate the self root.

It has high damage and a stun because it has that obvious, easy to avoid tell, and has a self root.

Your suggestion on initiative would also break the entire class.

The class is designed around using the same skill in quick succession, limited by a shared resource, you decide on which skill to use based on what would be best in the given situation.

If we were to have cooldowns on our current skills.. the class would be 100% broken.

Headshot, black powder, and infiltrator’s strike are all very situational skills, they all do extremely low damage.

Dagger/Dagger is honestly the only thief setup that would still function if each skill was given a cooldown, because all the attacks do substantial damage and could be used rotationally. like other classes.

A pistol pistol thief would be even more broken than they already are, shortbow, broken, pistol/dagger broken, dagger/pistol, broken, sword/dagger … well it’s already broken but hey, even more broken.

Thief using any weapon but dagger dagger where you could do a rotation of dancing dagger, leaping death blossom, cloak and dagger, backstab, heartseeker… would be come auto attack: the class.

The problem with posts like yours is that people like you were saying the same thing about Heartseeker before the nerf.

Thieves are not getting cooldowns on their skills because they have initiative costs, yes. The problem with the initiative system is that it doesn’t promote multiple skills being used in combinations. It promotes finding the best spammable damage skill, waiting until you’ve got any kind of advantage, and then vomiting all of your initiative on damage. Anet just needs to make sure that doing so is not a ‘win’ button.

They did it with HS, despite the many ‘L2P’ QQ posts in the Thief forum.

Also:

What I don’t get is….people are always attacking PW and HS because of PW/HS + Haste spam….why is no one attacking Haste? I mean, if that is the source of the issues everyone is having, why are we not discussing fixes for that instead of discussing fixes for core abilities that are only causing trouble *during * Haste?

Many people are calling for Quickness to be either nerfed to hell and back or removed. Anet has closed many threads on the subject. I wonder why… I’m not being sarcastic, I’m serious…why?

they can nerf haste when they invent better sword skills.

WHY IS QUOTING ALWAYS BROKEN ANET?

@Relentliss: It is a 0.5s stun, the animation (if haste is not up) is longer than that, you can avoid a significant part of the damage + the next pistol whip if you dodge as soon as you come out of the stun. That is also, if you get stunned in the first place. Good players will break out of infiltrator strike’s immobilize and avoid the stun altogether. You might want to look into that. It’s an extremely obvious animation where the thief reaches way back with their pistol offhand. Dodge, walk out of range or hell, walk right through them and be squarely behind them. They will have to break their skill or risk being self rooted while you kick them from behind.

@Redscope: Thief skills are not designed to be used in sequential rotation aside from a few exceptions.

Like I said Dagger could work with cooldowns, sword/pistol could not.

The only sequence sword/pistol has is infiltrator’s strike → pistol whip.

The class is specifically designed to use the same skill repeatedly, with many thief weapon skills behaving more like utility skills than weapon skills.

Head shot and black powder both do less damage than an auto attack, I believe infiltrator’s strike also does less damage than an auto attack.

You can’t use that in a rotation.

You put their skills on cooldown and you would literally break the class.

It’d have to be redesigned from the ground up.