Guild Wars 2

… which isnt about nerfing just the damage of the class.

Since I’m getting sick of all the whines about thieves and fear that Anet will once again nerf the wrong stuff, I would like to suggest another way on fixing the “instagib” of thieves. I would like to hear your opinion about it.

My idea was to give shadowstep (also also ALL other related teleport abilities like blink) a VERY short travel with a little effect you can see if you pay attention. For thieves it would be somekind of black blur which quickly darts to the target, for mesmers a purple blur.
Since shadowstep has now a traveltime, you would be able to dodge every shadowstep and with that even steal, IF you pay attention. It would also allow everyone to counterplay the shadow step. You are a warrior and see a thief in front of you and suddenly he is gone and faintly noticeable black blur approaches you fast? use 100b and hit the thief when he arrives in front of you.

Since the steal-insta-gib combo would be easier to dodge/counter now, a nerf at the dmg of thiefs wouldn’t be needed. Warriors can do even bigger burst in the end with bullrush and 100b, yet all say tis ok as you see him approaching.

Since it would be a “nerf” to a whole mechanic, it wouldnt only hit the thief. Furthermore I would also buff steal abit. First of the faintly noticeable fast traveling black blur should give you a very short invul frame. As steal is now harder to use, it would also be fair to reduce its cooldown and maybe even make whole steal more attractive as it is now.

Panacea.4927:

… which isnt about nerfing just the damage of the class.

Since I’m getting sick of all the whines about thieves and fear that Anet will once again nerf the wrong stuff, I would like to suggest another way on fixing the “instagib” of thieves. I would like to hear your opinion about it.

My idea was to give shadowstep (also also ALL other related teleport abilities like blink) a VERY short travel with a little effect you can see if you pay attention. For thieves it would be somekind of black blur which quickly darts to the target, for mesmers a purple blur.
Since shadowstep has now a traveltime, you would be able to dodge every shadowstep and with that even steal, IF you pay attention. It would also allow everyone to counterplay the shadow step. You are a warrior and see a thief in front of you and suddenly he is gone and faintly noticeable black blur approaches you fast? use 100b and hit the thief when he arrives in front of you.

Since the steal-insta-gib combo would be easier to dodge/counter now, a nerf at the dmg of thiefs wouldn’t be needed. Warriors can do even bigger burst in the end with bullrush and 100b, yet all say tis ok as you see him approaching.

Since it would be a “nerf” to a whole mechanic, it wouldnt only hit the thief. Furthermore I would also buff steal abit. First of the faintly noticeable fast traveling black blur should give you a very short invul frame. As steal is now harder to use, it would also be fair to reduce its cooldown and maybe even make whole steal more attractive as it is now.

Lore wise that doesn’t make sense, shadowstep is like traveling into a portal of shadows and out another portal, it shouldn’t have an animation.

Otherwise Portals themselves should have animations.

Similar thing you can do (not saying this is needed, necessarily — but it’s an approach):

Add an “aftercast” to C&D. Doesn’t affect S/D and P/D builds very much, since they tend to take a sec to maneuver anyway. Slows down the speed of the D/D Backstab spike without reducing its damage. Easier for an average-skill player to react, still powerful when you get it off.

Yes, but I think it would be unfair to only nerf the thief in that department while other classes can freely chain their teleport abilities with other ones.

I’m in favor of straight-up reducing back stab’s raw damage in favor of buffing it in some more synergistic ways.

Backstab is overrated. I play as a P/D condition thief and I have never been taken down by them in a 1v1. People just see scary numbers on their screen and make assumptions, and as a result the entire class gets nerfed.

Tulisin.6945:

I’m in favor of straight-up reducing back stab’s raw damage in favor of buffing it in some more synergistic ways.

Even though I play the spec because I like raw damage rather than condition, done right I am also in fanvor of this. Maybe a medium-large cripple or with traits a source to gain protection or retal, things like that to give it more flavor in trade for some damage.

The only problem with this though is that BS does a very small amount of damage compared to glass when you run a balanced build. Any nerf to backstab in terms of damage is only going to hurt balanced that much more, so the trade off would have to be very significant for these builds.

Rukia.4802:

Tulisin.6945:

I’m in favor of straight-up reducing back stab’s raw damage in favor of buffing it in some more synergistic ways.

Even though I play the spec because I like raw damage rather than condition, done right I am also in fanvor of this. Maybe a medium-large cripple or with traits a source to gain protection or retal, things like that to give it more flavor in trade for some damage.

The only problem with this though is that BS does a very small amount of damage compared to glass when you run a balanced build. Any nerf to backstab in terms of damage is only going to hurt balanced that much more, so the trade off would have to be very significant for these builds.

Your second point is exactly why I believe the change needs to happen. Backstab synergizes very well with dumping damage boosts and power upgrades onto it…but absolutely nothing else. Reduce the direct component and give it conditions/boons, make it steal endurance, something.

I’d also like to see a stealthed dagger attack from the front change from “weaksauce failed backstab” to something more useful. Sword’s from-stealth attack is far more interesting and synergistic because you can change the effect via positioning.

The ultimate goal here is not to make backstab less desirable to use, but to make it more desirable to use while making the insta-kill builds less viable.

My idea is to stop trying to find ideas to change a mechanic that works.
Stop trying to repair something that isn’t broken, everything is already fine as it is.

Red Falcon.8257:

My idea is to stop trying to find ideas to change a mechanic that works.
Stop trying to repair something that isn’t broken, everything is already fine as it is.

You can say this, but the only developer sentiment we’ve had on the subject along with a large portion of the community agree: TTK being <4 seconds isn’t good, especially being able to instantly close from a range.

I have yet to have a issue with thieves due to this combo…nor have i yet tanked anything about 7-8k from it…dunno how people are taking 10k back stabs-15k and 7-9k steals…1k armor?…not wearing shoes? idk

My issue with thief is the stealth spam, and get out of jail free cards…their dmg matches their squishyness…but when u add all the in combat stealths to the dmg, its just begging for people to call the class out on the stupid design

I concur that the lack of animation or ability to see a Thief coming is a big part of why Backstab receives a lot of QQ and why 100 Blades for example…is considered acceptable by most players.

People don’t really differentiate all that much between Stealth, Shadowstep and Burst. Most complainers tend to mush it all together and focus on a single aspect (like a 5-digit Backstab crit) instead of analyzing the situation as a whole (which is a lot to ask from your average poster).

My idea on how to fix the backstab would be to maybe increase the casttime of it, to 1/2 of a second or something like that, so players would have a higher chance to react and if it landed you’d still do the nice amount of damage.

One way to keep the combo viability, but increase reaction time window would be to split backstab on a chain attack.

Shank-shiv-eviscerate
First attack does about 1/3 backstab dmg and inflict cripple (if this crits, next attack crits)
2nd attack does about 1/2 backstab dmg and drain endurance (if this attack crits, next attachk crits)
3rd attack does about 2/3 backsab dmg and bleeds
The dmg of all attacks is positional like BS

This would increase the dmg, add some other benefits on the attack, but greatly increase the reaction time an KT of the combo.

It would still be a great combo, and with about 3secs to complete it fully it would make a good chain for the duration of the revealed debuf.

Making sure the 2nd and 3rd attack crit if the first attack crit is necessary to not make the GM trait in critical strikes useless

Sigh this thread again. Backstab is fine, that’s not the problem.

You can see the thief wind up his weapon for Cloak and Dagger. If he ‘s doing it at a range just dodge because it’s obvious what’s coming next.

70% of the time you try to use Steal there’s no effect no damage and no skill stealed, because of block, evade and obstructed.

I agree with the OP idea. Love it actually. A short blur to target teleport would go a long way to fixing all “instant” teleport abilities. Give them a .5 sec cast time and i think you will also prevent the pre-cast skill combos (like CnD steal and that ele earthquake-lightning flash or whatever it is).

You already know the combo is coming when you see the CnD animation, along with the venoms the thief has.

I love glass cannon backstab hero thieves!

They are by far the easiest to kill. Makes my life and earning glory points so much easier. ^^

Tulisin.6945:

You can say this, but the only developer sentiment we’ve had on the subject along with a large portion of the community agree: TTK being <4 seconds isn’t good, especially being able to instantly close from a range.

Every class in the game has <4 TTK vs unprepared people.
And it’s very, very welcome.
I’m tired of MMOs where PvP is endurance battles where reaction time and surprise effect doesn’t matter because you can reset a fight.
If you are caught with your pants down, you die. Period.

Red Falcon.8257:

Every class in the game has <4 TTK vs unprepared people.
And it’s very, very welcome.
I’m tired of MMOs where PvP is endurance battles where reaction time and surprise effect doesn’t matter because you can reset a fight.
If you are caught with your pants down, you die. Period.

THIS. One million times.

It’s like people want to play a game where any class that can beat their ideal Roleplaying build/look on their class (I’ve met people ingame who use a weapon set based on looks, not performance/synergy).

If you aren’t paying attention in real warfare and your enemy has the element of surprise, you’re dead.
There is thousands of historic examples of Asymmetric Warfare being employed to extreme effect at the cost of an otherwise impervious militaries strengths. (Viet-Cong, American Minute-Men, Mongol Horse Archers).

From what I’m reading it’s almost like none of you have ran into a good sword/pistol Mesmer, or Dag/Dag tank/mob Ele.
The Thiefs primary advantage as a burst/direct damage build IS it’s 5 digit crits, because if that target is alive much longer, you won’t be.

Backstab doesn’t need a nerf. If a Thief uses 2-3 45s+ cooldowns to insta-gib someone, it’s not like their team can’t res them, or completely destroy the Thief in the 3 seconds you’re locked out in the open with Revealed.

That’s also assuming optimal conditions for the Thief prepping such an invested spike- if his target is aware of his approach Basilisk Venom is a kittentun for any player who isn’t a kitten and has at least 1 stun break. (Every class has 3, mind you.)
Stun breaks, typically, are also movement skills that allow you to put distance between yourself and the Thief.

Stop nerfing the Assassin Class just because you’re too near-sighted to adapt to the environment. Backstab is part of the environment. Stop kittening and get better.

“I can’t use this, it’s too heavy.”
“Then grow stronger.”
-13th Warrior