If backstab gets nerfed...
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No, because S/P has already been nerfed.
Instead you will see Thieves speccing for the Shortbow, owning groups of people with Cluster Bomb.
Then the rage begins all over again.
and we will all be forced to use p/p or p/d or s/d after that, and they will get nerfed. Then all thieves would start to only use environmental weapons
I never felt that Pistol Whip was anywhere near as good as D/D because of the self-root. I know people succeeded with it but I never liked it.
Should D/D lose it’s USP I’d probably opt for Sword/Dagger since it’s fairly similar in play-style, just without the burst.
You do not use devourer venom kitten p. Sword skill no 2 does that job. Only noobs used devourer venom on PW thieves.
PW got nerfed to be absolutely useless. Just save initiative and spam auto attack (you’ll do higher damage) You can troll people spamming blind power and auto attacking them to death
PW need the 15% damage nerf reverted. It did less damage then skills compared to it and it has a long wind up animation which you can dodge the damage after the mini stun by just walking out.
All PW nerf did was ruin thieves in PVE
I still use PW in PvE. It’s not THAT bad…I still own mobs in Orr…I tank better then guardians and warriors in dungeons and my dps is still pretty bloody high (even without being a glass spec).
To be honest what got nerfed when it came to PW thieves was the glass PW burst build, not the tank-y version but yet, the nerf was overkill and should be reverted. Auto attack does comparable damage to PW now.
Dear Arena, isnt easier remove complete thief class than still nerfing this nice class? You can completely remove it because after all these kids-cry-based nerfes thief will be useless with both: less HP and no damage. No more glass cannon class, only glass class.
I really dont understand why you made this game with thief on begin if you are now only ruining this class. Remove thief class! Its visible that Arena dont like this class and nerf thief when some kids cry on forum: “bueeee bueeee, some thief killed me, thief is OP, nerf please”. Dagger was/will be nerfed and bow and pistols are weak so what thief would use as weapon? All our weapons are or will be weak so why you made this class, Arena??? Is really nice that thief has some 2-3 seconds of stealth but what it is good for if we have (after all nerfes) almost no damage with all weapons?
From start of game is thief only target of nerfes, nerfes, nerfes. You could have said on start of game that you want during next 2-3 months make from thief poor wretch with no hp and damage and many ppl could choose another (now) better class. Its really not fair to present 80. level thieves that you make this class useless after their 2-3 months of hard work of leveling, exploring maps, crafting and collecting money for better gear.
I thought that GW2 is better than other multiplayer games and Arena is serious developer but I see that true is other. Arena is only puppet which dance on child-cry rhythm. Really i though that you are better but you are same like other mp games with crying forums.
(edited by Runcore.5107)
I think it would be fair to say that most of us feel the same way as Runcore.5107. In saying that I don’t think I would waste my time leveling another class to 80 and buying more gems to get gold for gear, weapons, crafting etc.
Just imagine having to get all achievements map completion again on another char. No just No.
if there will be an nerf must be general cap , not clas specific
want an nerf : cap critical rate to 65% and crit power to 100%
but no, that’s not good neither because independent of your will you will have to add armor and vitality and thief won’t be able to 3 shots you anymore
Dear Arena, isnt easier remove complete thief class than still nerfing this nice class? You can completely remove it because after all these kids-cry-based nerfes thief will be useless with both: less HP and no damage. No more glass cannon class, only glass class.
I really dont understand why you made this game with thief on begin if you are now only ruining this class. Remove thief class! Its visible that Arena dont like this class and nerf thief when some kids cry on forum: “bueeee bueeee, some thief killed me, thief is OP, nerf please”. Dagger was/will be nerfed and bow and pistols are weak so what thief would use as weapon? All our weapons are or will be weak so why you made this class, Arena??? Is really nice that thief has some 2-3 seconds of stealth but what it is good for if we have (after all nerfes) almost no damage with all weapons?
From start of game is thief only target of nerfes, nerfes, nerfes. You could have said on start of game that you want during next 2-3 months make from thief poor wretch with no hp and damage and many ppl could choose another (now) better class. Its really not fair to present 80. level thieves that you make this class useless after their 2-3 months of hard work of leveling, exploring maps, crafting and collecting money for better gear.
I thought that GW2 is better than other multiplayer games and Arena is serious developer but I see that true is other. Arena is only puppet which dance on child-cry rhythm. Really i though that you are better but you are same like other mp games with crying forums.
Or, probably, the judgment of almost every high-level PvPer, almost all the community excluding thieves plus a minorance of thieves which actually like the class and want it to be challanging to play and not an insta-kill kitten and a crew of people who are balancing games since 10+ years ago is more reliable than yours and of the minority of thief players.
Then you’ll realize that the whiny kid it’s you and all those players who move along the FotM OP professions and don’t want to get their easy win method destroyed, so they are struggling against proper nerfs.
Thief was buffed to hell during the BWEs, so probably ANet doesn’t hate thieves, but they realized that they were overbuffed and need to be toned down.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Sorrow you really dont understand what i mean by this post.
First, me and other thieves are not crying here just reacting on QQ topics which was made by real crying kids. We are just defending ourselves.
Second, all QQ topics here speak about “OP” daggers skills and I never said that I use daggers. I was using daggers maybe on first 20 levels but from this time I use only P/P or shortbow so we can say that im objective thief because upcoming nerf of daggers has no influence on me.
Third, I have never said that im interested on PvP but is not really fair that with every new nerf im weaker and weaker on dungeons for example and PvE mainly. Who will invite to party thief which is now almost unusable on dungeons with glass HP and almost no damage? Now i have problem to find party for dungeon because 70% of ppl say that they are looking for every class except thief and problem will be higher when next nerf come. And its not only my fantasy. I know at least another 10 thieves who have same problem with finding party for dungeons. Nobody want invite to party class with no HP and no damage.
Arena dont see that they ruin thief both on PvP and PvE. Daggers are now only weapons for thief which deal decent damage. Other weapons like sword, pistols and bow are really very weak in compare with daggers and weapons of other classes. When you take decent damage of dagger, thief has no good weapons anymore and become most useless class on game.
Btw Arena was surely testing all classes long time before GW2 release and they should have seen all non-balance elements on all classes and balance it before game was released and not nerf one class now when many ppl have 80. level thieves with 100% explored maps, exotic sets, jumping puzzle…etc. Arena was sleeping during tests before release and now wake up and ruin all class. Its really unfair that Arena is “balancing” classes now 3 months after release of game. They should have done it before release when ppl was choosing class to play and not now after months of hard work. Arena you are not giving some choice to present 80. level thieves and force them to do ALL again which mean personal story again, leveling again, 30-40x dungeon again for exotic, 100% exploration of maps again…etc. Its not fair for us and 3 months work now mean nothing. Do you think its really right way of GW2? If you want ruin thief, give every thief free transfer to another class with all gear that thief now have, with all archievements, level…etc. Thieves have right to change their class if you completely ruin thief because its not our guilt that Arena now must “balance” this class. Its pure filth what Arena do with thieves.
Last one, why everybody is crying only about thief? You show here many screenshots with allegedly “op” thieves but nobody show here how powerful are other classes. Nobody show here for example how OP is mesmer now, how big damage can deal warrior with “hundred blades”. Warriors have much bigger damage than thieves, much more HP than thieves and much more variability of weapons than thief and only thieves akittenget of nerfes and QQ topics.
If you really want balance for thief class then must be balanced all parts of thief which mean buff pistols, buff bow, buff sword and total rework of poisons and traps for thief. Traps should be more powerfull because now almost nobody use it because traps are very weak and useless and same with poisons which should be on F2-Fx buttons. Thief is poison based class so poison should be somewhere else than on skill buttons which can be used for another better skills.
You want balance? So then balance all and not only nerf. You are speaking only only about nerf because you want some weak class to easy kill on PvP but balancing is not only about nerf but there are buffs too. Somewhere nerf and somewhere buff – its balancing.
(edited by Runcore.5107)
and we will all be forced to use p/p or p/d or s/d
I am using s/d for close combat. Guess im doing it wrong.
Sorrow you really dont understand what i mean by this post.
First, me and other thieves are not crying here just reacting on QQ topics which was made by real crying kids. We are just defending ourselves.
Second, all QQ topics here speak about “OP” daggers skills and I never said that I use daggers. I was using daggers maybe on first 20 levels but from this time I use only P/P or shortbow so we can say that im objective thief because upcoming nerf of daggers has no influence on me.
Third, I have never said that im interested on PvP but is not really fair that with every new nerf im weaker and weaker on dungeons for example and PvE mainly. Who will invite to party thief which is now almost unusable on dungeons with glass HP and almost no damage? Now i have problem to find party for dungeon because 70% of ppl say that they are looking for every class except thief and problem will be higher when next nerf come. And its not only my fantasy. I know at least another 10 thieves who have same problem with finding party for dungeons. Nobody want invite to party class with no HP and no damage.
Arena dont see that they ruin thief both on PvP and PvE. Daggers are now only weapons for thief which deal decent damage. Other weapons like sword, pistols and bow are really very weak in compare with daggers and weapons of other classes. When you take decent damage of dagger, thief has no good weapons anymore and become most useless class on game.
Btw Arena was surely testing all classes long time before GW2 release and they should have seen all non-balance elements on all classes and balance it before game was released and not nerf one class now when many ppl have 80. level thieves with 100% explored maps, exotic sets, jumping puzzle…etc. Arena was sleeping during tests before release and now wake up and ruin all class. Its really unfair that Arena is “balancing” classes now 3 months after release of game. They should have done it before release when ppl was choosing class to play and not now after months of hard work. Arena you are not giving some choice to present 80. level thieves and force them to do ALL again which mean personal story again, leveling again, 30-40x dungeon again for exotic, 100% exploration of maps again…etc. Its not fair for us and 3 months work now mean nothing. Do you think its really right way of GW2? If you want ruin thief, give every thief free transfer to another class with all gear that thief now have, with all archievements, level…etc. Thieves have right to change their class if you completely ruin thief because its not our guilt that Arena now must “balance” this class. Its pure filth what Arena do with thieves.
Last one, why everybody is crying only about thief? You show here many screenshots with allegedly “op” thieves but nobody show here how powerful are other classes. Nobody show here for example how OP is mesmer now, how big damage can deal warrior with “hundred blades”. Warriors have much bigger damage than thieves, much more HP than thieves and much more variability of weapons than thief and only thieves akittenget of nerfes and QQ topics.
If you really want balance for thief class then must be balanced all parts of thief which mean buff pistols, buff bow, buff sword and total rework of poisons and traps for thief. Traps should be more powerfull because now almost nobody use it because traps are very weak and useless and same with poisons which should be on F2-Fx buttons. Thief is poison based class so poison should be somewhere else than on skill buttons which can be used for another better skills.
You want balance? So then balance all and not only nerf. You are speaking only only about nerf because you want some weak class to easy kill on PvP but balancing is not only about nerf but there are buffs too. Somewhere nerf and somewhere buff – its balancing.
Your reasoning make no sense for many reasons.
1. It isn’t sure that ArenaNet is going to nerf the thieves both in PvP and in PvE. All the complaining are coming in a PvP perspective, where class balancing comes out.
In Guild Wars, ArenaNet split skills in a PvP version and in a PvE version, to be balanced in PvP and not weak in PvE and they are doing the same thing in GW2.
Just take, for instance, the “Save Yourselves!” guardian shout, it has two different effects in PvP and in PvE.
2. ArenaNet never said it won’t be a buff to other spec, neither that there won’t be a buff to the PvE thief. So your complains comes from no real basis.
3. People are actually complaining about every profession which feels overpowered. There are bunch of complaints about Guardians and Mesmers, not so much about Warrior because they aren’t that strong. It’s just you that don’t see those complaints.
So you think that they can nerf only PvP and Pve let same? I very doubt. Almost all things that happen to PvP skills will affect PvE skill as well. I think that this one nerf of “Heart seeker” daggers skill was done on PvE as well which mean influencing of PvE and not only PvP.
I dont know what class you play but until you are on same situation like me and many other thieves, you cannot understand what we feel. I really would like see your reactions if Arena totally ruins your favorite class on 80. level with 100% explored maps, exotic gear and months of hard work on your character. You will then say same like me and will be very angry when some kids come and say “your class is op, please nerf it” and Arena do it. I really doubt that you say “ok, no problem, nerf my class”. You maybe did same hard work like me and many other ppl on you character and now dont want nerfes that will force you choose another character and do ALL again which mean another months of hard work.
Until you try same situation like us, you have no right judge us and our complaints here!
(edited by Runcore.5107)
Dude, I play Necromancer, don’t say to me how’s the feel when none wants you.
I know how it feels to be underpowered and weak and, since I alt as Thief, trust me, Thieves are far from underpowered.
I think that a nerf on the base damage of backstab doesn’t hit the Thief effectiveness at all but it instead will give Thieves more balance among their possible builds.
Again, I don’t know on which basis you say that they won’t split skills in PvP and in PvE as they have already done back in Guild Wars 1 and they are still doing in Guild Wars 2. If the nerf is also in PvE, means that probably ArenaNet thinks that this nerf is needed also in PvE. They know their job.
I switched condition build. Its great, and fights last longer and its already balanced and fun
BS will be brought in line, and people will still play it, like they do PW
Dude, I play Necromancer, don’t say to me how’s the feel when none wants you.
I know how it feels to be underpowered and weak and, since I alt as Thief, trust me, Thieves are far from underpowered.
I think that a nerf on the base damage of backstab doesn’t hit the Thief effectiveness at all but it instead will give Thieves more balance among their possible builds.Again, I don’t know on which basis you say that they won’t split skills in PvP and in PvE as they have already done back in Guild Wars 1 and they are still doing in Guild Wars 2. If the nerf is also in PvE, means that probably ArenaNet thinks that this nerf is needed also in PvE. They know their job.
My brother runs in FULL magic find gear and spams his marks on staff and facerolls 90% of pve I watch him all the time, sure which my thief could do that bro… necro’s have it easy. You even get minions to top it all off.
ANet needs to split pvp and pve skills because they’re already mucking stuff up because of all the QQ coming from WvW heroes.
“I find this rain quite pleasant, it feels as though raindrops are blessing our victory”
(edited by Rukia.4802)
My brother runs in FULL magic find gear and spams his marks on staff and facerolls 90% of pve I watch him all the time, sure which my thief could do that bro…
Full MF gear, Signet of Malice, S/P or S/D. Spam auto attack while holding down strafe or spam pistol whip. PvE isn’t hard.
glass cannon P/P unload is better than pistol whip for single target takedowns anyway. Similar damage, at range, with no root and you still get daze from headshot and smoke from BP. All the pistol whip nerf did for me was force me into range when I’d rather be in melee. I never saw the attraction in uber stealth or backstab builds, I don’t want to see backstab nerfed either but it wont affect me in the least. If our burst is nerfed more then we are going to need more than just poison and bleeding for conditions. I would love to see burning and confusion added to our capability.
Dude, I play Necromancer, don’t say to me how’s the feel when none wants you.
I know how it feels to be underpowered and weak and, since I alt as Thief, trust me, Thieves are far from underpowered.
I think that a nerf on the base damage of backstab doesn’t hit the Thief effectiveness at all but it instead will give Thieves more balance among their possible builds.Again, I don’t know on which basis you say that they won’t split skills in PvP and in PvE as they have already done back in Guild Wars 1 and they are still doing in Guild Wars 2. If the nerf is also in PvE, means that probably ArenaNet thinks that this nerf is needed also in PvE. They know their job.
My brother runs in FULL magic find gear and spams his marks on staff and facerolls 90% of pve I watch him all the time, sure which my thief could do that bro… necro’s have it easy. You even get minions to top it all off.
ANet needs to split pvp and pve skills because they’re already mucking stuff up because of all the QQ coming from WvW heroes.
umm any thief with a shortbow can do the same exact thing. Circle strafe while using cluster bomb and viola! dead mobs. You also have no clue about necro’s. Those marks due really low damage due to how messed up their class is and unbalanced condition damage is compared to burst damage. Even in maxed out condition damage spec the 2nd mark isn’t doing more than 3.5k damage from the bleed. My thief can do 4k easy with his clusterbomb every other second while the necro is waiting for that bleed to tick and the cooldown to be up. Minions you say? I kitten near wet myself laughing. Minions are the worst and buggiest things in the game by a wide margin. They take up utility/elite slots BTW and I’d rather have a useful utility skill than the current minions any day of the week, it isn’t even a contest.
I have 4 80’s so far; Thief, Necro, Warrior, and Engineer. You have no idea how good the thief class has it. What’s worse is you think Necro’s have it better, yet they are by far the most UP class, terrible trait designs, and with more bugs than a few of the other classes combined. The thief damage is OP along with a few other classes/builds and it needs brought back into line. Personally I’d start with nerfing crit/crit damage rates but either way it needs fixed sooner rather than later. There is a reason that pug SPvP consists of mostly the thief class and it isn’t because they are perfectly balanced.
Yea well I was more referring to dungeons, you know real pve not zergfest where you can literally run anything and get away with it… calm down seriously, I didn’t know a cry storm was about to hit me in the face.
So, the situation is even worse.
When you are running dungeon you are in most the cases hitting a single target.
Thieves have the best single target damage out of this game by far.
Just try Necro, bring him to high levels and see how stupid is what you said.
Thieves have the best single target damage out of this game by far.
Care to clarify this? I didn´t know of any DPS measuring option for this game so far…
#ELEtism 4ever
Dude, I play Necromancer, don’t say to me how’s the feel when none wants you.
I know how it feels to be underpowered and weak and, since I alt as Thief, trust me, Thieves are far from underpowered.
I think that a nerf on the base damage of backstab doesn’t hit the Thief effectiveness at all but it instead will give Thieves more balance among their possible builds.Again, I don’t know on which basis you say that they won’t split skills in PvP and in PvE as they have already done back in Guild Wars 1 and they are still doing in Guild Wars 2. If the nerf is also in PvE, means that probably ArenaNet thinks that this nerf is needed also in PvE. They know their job.
My brother runs in FULL magic find gear and spams his marks on staff and facerolls 90% of pve I watch him all the time, sure which my thief could do that bro… necro’s have it easy. You even get minions to top it all off.
ANet needs to split pvp and pve skills because they’re already mucking stuff up because of all the QQ coming from WvW heroes.
umm any thief with a shortbow can do the same exact thing. Circle strafe while using cluster bomb and viola! dead mobs. You also have no clue about necro’s. Those marks due really low damage due to how messed up their class is and unbalanced condition damage is compared to burst damage. Even in maxed out condition damage spec the 2nd mark isn’t doing more than 3.5k damage from the bleed. My thief can do 4k easy with his clusterbomb every other second while the necro is waiting for that bleed to tick and the cooldown to be up. Minions you say? I kitten near wet myself laughing. Minions are the worst and buggiest things in the game by a wide margin. They take up utility/elite slots BTW and I’d rather have a useful utility skill than the current minions any day of the week, it isn’t even a contest.
I have 4 80’s so far; Thief, Necro, Warrior, and Engineer. You have no idea how good the thief class has it. What’s worse is you think Necro’s have it better, yet they are by far the most UP class, terrible trait designs, and with more bugs than a few of the other classes combined. The thief damage is OP along with a few other classes/builds and it needs brought back into line. Personally I’d start with nerfing crit/crit damage rates but either way it needs fixed sooner rather than later. There is a reason that pug SPvP consists of mostly the thief class and it isn’t because they are perfectly balanced.
As I play necro as a main I can say without a doubt minons are horrible, i wont go into details since they are bad at everything. The staff is by far our best weapon we have for any build whether its power, condition, or bunker builds. Most of the other weapons are not as useful as the staff is. Not saying they are all bad just not as useful as the staff is since it can fit all builds for the most part.
Now our power and condition builds can made to very useful in pve and wvwvw setups just we have to devote everything we have to it, trying to be a hybrid build on power and condition for the most part hurts the necro. I am not saying its not done o some players cant do it, heck i am sure some can but its harder to do. For tpvp i just cant make a good condition build since the conditions are cleared far to often for me to justify sticking with it, power and bunker builds all the way.
I still like to play my necro even if he is the most boring and broken class to play since i like attrition base style. I have a necro, thief, guardian, engineer, and working on mesmer now .
(edited by gamefreak.5673)
I still use PW in PvE. It’s not THAT bad…I still own mobs in Orr…I tank better then guardians and warriors in dungeons and my dps is still pretty bloody high (even without being a glass spec).
To be honest what got nerfed when it came to PW thieves was the glass PW burst build, not the tank-y version but yet, the nerf was overkill and should be reverted. Auto attack does comparable damage to PW now.
You’re doing less damage than you’d be doing autoattacking while standing in black powder’s smoke.
Honestly pistol whip is only useful if you’re fighting something that cannot be blinded, but won’t one shot you if they hit you.
If it’ll 1 shot you or near 1 shot you, I wouldn’t risk chancing on the 1s of evade in a 2.6s animation skill, you’re more likely to get hit during the activation time, or stun time (that won’t happen becaue a mob that’s virtually immune to blind will also most of the time be immune to stuns), or in the tail end of the animation while you’re still rooted but the evade has worn off. If it can be blinded you’re better off using black powder and autoattacking. Take less hits (unless the mob does several hits at once in under 1s), do more DPS, add cripple and weakness.
Pistol whip is pretty garbage in PVE now.
Zapp – 80 Asura Afromancer
First patch: nerf to D/D burst build.
People reroll S/D, P/D and Unicorn.
Second patch: nerf to stealth
People reroll S/P with Venom share.
Third patch: nerf to Sword and Dagger 1 chains
People reroll P/P, Thief becomes non-viable.
I really hope Anet realizes that pandering to the bottom of the barrel players is an unwinnable battle. The only long term solution is to balance the game around people who actually learn counters and how the game mechanics work. Casuals will always complain sooner than adapt, so trying to placate them is wasted time, and ruins the experience for the rest of us.
I only see thieves prophesying the apocalypse of the thief class based on the possible nerf of just one skill. This is a clear indication of how you guys are the ones who can’t adapt to changes and that you are the whiny kids and casual players.
It is clear to any hardcore and high-level PvP player that thieves, right now, needs some work. Now if you aren’t that kind of pubstomper kids, you’ll know that backstab nerf doesn’t hurt at all any thief capability, both in PvE and in tPvP. The only ones who this possible nerf is hurting are people who likes to roam around WvWvW and sPvP killing random guys and enjoying their easy wins.
Thieves have the best single target damage out of this game by far.
Care to clarify this? I didn´t know of any DPS measuring option for this game so far…
Initiative.
Thieves can use their highest damage skill over and over till the initiative is over, dealing massive damage.
Other professions are locked to a cooldown and can’t do this, but thieves can just focus on their high-damage output skill on their skillbar ignoring any utility, while other professions are forced to cycle their skills till the high-damage skill is rechared or to use autoattack and save utilities for better situations.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
I only see thieves prophesying the apocalypse of the thief class based on the possible nerf of just one skill. This is a clear indication of how you guys are the ones who can’t adapt to changes and that you are the whiny kids and casual players.
It is clear to any hardcore and high-level PvP player that thieves, right now, needs some work. Now if you aren’t that kind of pubstomper kids, you’ll know that backstab nerf doesn’t hurt at all any thief capability, both in PvE and in tPvP. The only ones who this possible nerf is hurting are people who likes to roam around WvWvW and sPvP killing random guys and enjoying their easy wins.Thieves have the best single target damage out of this game by far.
Care to clarify this? I didn´t know of any DPS measuring option for this game so far…
Initiative.
Thieves can use their highest damage skill over and over till the initiative is over, dealing massive damage.
Other professions are locked to a cooldown and can’t do this, but thieves can just focus on their high-damage output skill on their skillbar ignoring any utility, while other professions are forced to cycle their skills till the high-damage skill is rechared or to use autoattack and save utilities for better situations.
Don’t insult other people’s skill level and then make out like Heartseeker spam is somehow difficult to avoid.
Also I still don’t see why thieves having the best single target damage in the game is a problem. I’d call it a problem if they didn’t.
Furthermore; You’re only seeing what you want to if you think this is about “one skill”. For one, backstab is the focal point of a large number of assassination builds (which should be a totally valid option). For another, the whining about thieves has ruined skills that already weren’t fantastic for anything but pubstomping in the past (Pistol Whip). If Backstab gets ruined, it’s logical to predict the whining will move onto something else, and the cycle will just continue until thieves are useless.
(edited by SFtheWolf.5179)
I think people are blowing this whole potential backstab nerf way out of proportion for what is a pretty gimmicky skill in the first place.
First off, ANet said they were looking to bring down the raw spike DPS potential of some builds while compensating others, so if you really love Thief that much, you should start looking into other builds ( Yes, there really are other skills other than Heart Seeker and Back Stab! ) rather than moaning because a skill half of you apparently don’t use is being slightly lowered.
Second, saying that ANet are pandering to noobs/bads/casuals or whatever your favorite derogatory term is, is just stupid. Remember in the BWE’s when everyone was complaining about the Hundred Blades Warriors, how did ANet react; they didn’t, exactly the same when loads of people were complaining about the Mesmer survivability and utility, they lowered the damage and recharge of Phantasm attacks. Or what about the Guardian and their damage potential? Largely unchanged. ANet assess the situation on skills, abilities or whatnot themselves, if they feel a change is needed, then obviously something has to be done about it because it’s not acting as intended or players are using it in unintended ways.
Finally, Anet are trying to work to increase their longevity of their game, you really think heavily nerfing a class is their priority? If so, you are sadly mistaken, especially when that class is a fundamental part of almost every MMORPG.
Extra: SFtheWolf – I couldn’t agree more about people would rather complain than adapt, and that is exactly whats happening here, on both sides of the fence.
Save my heart tomorrow.
If BS gets nerfed I will either quit or try Sword/Dagger.
I really like the backstab thing. I don’t think it needs any kind of nerf. People just need to L2P.
I can kill noobs really easy and quick but fighting people with exotics and level 80 is pretty even unless they screw up during the fight.
Just another noob thief…
Don’t insult other people’s skill level and then make out like Heartseeker spam is somehow difficult to avoid.
Also I still don’t see why thieves having the best single target damage in the game is a problem. I’d call it a problem if they didn’t.
Furthermore; You’re only seeing what you want to if you think this is about “one skill”. For one, backstab is the focal point of a large number of assassination builds (which should be a totally valid option). For another, the whining about thieves has ruined skills that already weren’t fantastic for anything but pubstomping in the past (Pistol Whip). If Backstab gets ruined, it’s logical to predict the whining will move onto something else, and the cycle will just continue until thieves are useless.
You should have at least have read the context of what I said.
I’ve stated that thieves have the highest single-target DPS in the game to answer Rukia who said Thieves are bad in dungeons and will get even more bad, when almost all the action in that part of game is based on single target engagements with bosses, in which thieves excels.
Pistol Whip, right it is now, is still very viable.
Pigiaduroitastini (Seba Z), Italian as I am, is a great thief player and runs PW in tPvP also after the nerf with great results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaYsl9CxNdA&feature=plcp
Pistol Whip, before the nerf, was just overpowered, now is is well balanced.
You feel it as weak because you compare it to Backstab, which is another op build on the thief. When Backstab will get a nerf too, you’ll realize that all builds are effective the same and they are all viable, unless another op build will stand out and start to monopolize all the thieves again. When you feel that all builds are equally viable, you’ll know that there is balance but till that point, there is no balance.
Other thief’s builds aren’t weak, they are just weaker in comparison with backstab, that’s all. There is no reason to run them over backstab but it isn’t that other builds are all weak, it is just backstab which is stronger than it should.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Don’t insult other people’s skill level and then make out like Heartseeker spam is somehow difficult to avoid.
Also I still don’t see why thieves having the best single target damage in the game is a problem. I’d call it a problem if they didn’t.
Furthermore; You’re only seeing what you want to if you think this is about “one skill”. For one, backstab is the focal point of a large number of assassination builds (which should be a totally valid option). For another, the whining about thieves has ruined skills that already weren’t fantastic for anything but pubstomping in the past (Pistol Whip). If Backstab gets ruined, it’s logical to predict the whining will move onto something else, and the cycle will just continue until thieves are useless.
You should have at least have read the context of what I said.
I’ve stated that thieves have the highest single-target DPS in the game to answer Rukia who said Thieves are bad in dungeons and will get even more bad, when almost all the action in that part of game is based on single target engagements with bosses, in which thieves excels.Pistol Whip, right it is now, is still very viable.
Pigiaduroitastini (Seba Z), Italian as I am, is a great thief player and runs PW in tPvP also after the nerf with great results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaYsl9CxNdA&feature=plcpPistol Whip, before the nerf, was just overpowered, now is is well balanced.
You feel it as weak because you compare it to Backstab, which is another op build on the thief. When Backstab will get a nerf too, you’ll realize that all builds are effective the same and they are all viable, unless another op build will stand out and start to monopolize all the thieves again. When you feel that all builds are equally viable, you’ll know that there is balance but till that point, there is no balance.Other thief’s builds aren’t weak, they are just weaker in comparison with backstab, that’s all. There is no reason to run them over backstab but it isn’t that other builds are all weak, it is just backstab which is stronger than it should.
Your form of argument is begging the question. You’re basically saying “my premise is correct therefore my premise is correct”. Repeating your opinion that backstab is overpowered doesn’t add any weight to your case.
Also people keep assuming I build Pistol Whip or Backstab and that’s why I have something invested in this. I don’t. I just hate seeing mob rule and appeals to popular opinion winning the day. It makes me concerned for the future.
As for Pistol Whip’s ongoing viability, all I can say is I bring one stun break and every single Pistol Whip thief I fight in PvP completely falls apart. Maybe I just haven’t fought a good one yet.
You know this reminds me of the constant complaints about the Spy in TF2. Despite being just about the worst class in the game now, people are still enraged by its mere existence. Casuals (a factual statement, regardless of if it’s derogatory) refused to modify their gameplay to take into account the basic counters required to prevent one from instakilling you. In response, Valve has made it so that you can consistently hear one uncloaking behind you (and I’m not talking about the Dead Ringer).
As a result, it’s extremely rare for anyone worth their salt to be killed by a spy any more, ever. If you have headphones on and do the occasional 180 visual check, you simply will not be ambushed by one.
It’s a perfect example of the casual demographic’s demands ruining a class that takes a deliberate action or two to counter. It happens in nearly every game that has one, and I don’t want to see it happen again here.
I believe if Backstab gets outright nerfed, it will be a decisive step in that direction.
If BS gets nerfed I will either quit or try Sword/Dagger.
I really like the backstab thing. I don’t think it needs any kind of nerf. People just need to L2P.
I can kill noobs really easy and quick but fighting people with exotics and level 80 is pretty even unless they screw up during the fight.
I don’t like backstab, but not because it is broken or overpowered, it is just boring and un-synergized. All of the other attack-from-stealth abilities have some neat things going for them, backstab is just very bland and hard to build off of short of stacking a bunch of raw damage.
In short, back stab, regardless of how powerful it is, is a bad ability. Players need to learn to differentiate between an ability that is good because it is strong and an ability that is good because it is well designed, synergistic, and rewarding.
If BS gets nerfed I will either quit or try Sword/Dagger.
I really like the backstab thing. I don’t think it needs any kind of nerf. People just need to L2P.
I can kill noobs really easy and quick but fighting people with exotics and level 80 is pretty even unless they screw up during the fight.
I don’t like backstab, but not because it is broken or overpowered, it is just boring and un-synergized. All of the other attack-from-stealth abilities have some neat things going for them, backstab is just very bland and hard to build off of short of stacking a bunch of raw damage.
In short, back stab, regardless of how powerful it is, is a bad ability. Players need to learn to differentiate between an ability that is good because it is strong and an ability that is good because it is well designed, synergistic, and rewarding.
I would totally get behind a Backstab redesign that made it more nuanced and cerebral.
The only problem is then it would require even more thinking to properly counter, and it’s been established that zero is the amount that people are willing to commit to such a task.
I only see thieves prophesying the apocalypse of the thief class based on the possible nerf of just one skill. This is a clear indication of how you guys are the ones who can’t adapt to changes and that you are the whiny kids and casual players.
It is clear to any hardcore and high-level PvP player that thieves, right now, needs some work. Now if you aren’t that kind of pubstomper kids, you’ll know that backstab nerf doesn’t hurt at all any thief capability, both in PvE and in tPvP. The only ones who this possible nerf is hurting are people who likes to roam around WvWvW and sPvP killing random guys and enjoying their easy wins.Thieves have the best single target damage out of this game by far.
Care to clarify this? I didn´t know of any DPS measuring option for this game so far…
Initiative.
Thieves can use their highest damage skill over and over till the initiative is over, dealing massive damage.
Other professions are locked to a cooldown and can’t do this, but thieves can just focus on their high-damage output skill on their skillbar ignoring any utility, while other professions are forced to cycle their skills till the high-damage skill is rechared or to use autoattack and save utilities for better situations.
Their burst damage is really high but their sustained damage is definitely not towering over others, it might even be a bit lower than some classes because when your initiative runs dry you’re left autoattacking. In fact the reason why thief autoattack damage is higher than pretty much anyone else is to counteract that and give them some sustain.
Zapp – 80 Asura Afromancer
My brother runs in FULL magic find gear and spams his marks on staff and facerolls 90% of pve I watch him all the time, sure which my thief could do that bro…
Full MF gear, Signet of Malice, S/P or S/D. Spam auto attack while holding down strafe or spam pistol whip. PvE isn’t hard.
Wow you basically described what I do in PvE…mind you the MF gear is only there until I get the karma for my exotic karma armor and runes to socket over my pirate runes.
I think people are blowing this whole potential backstab nerf way out of proportion for what is a pretty gimmicky skill in the first place.
First off, ANet said they were looking to bring down the raw spike DPS potential of some builds while compensating others, so if you really love Thief that much, you should start looking into other builds ( Yes, there really are other skills other than Heart Seeker and Back Stab! ) rather than moaning because a skill half of you apparently don’t use is being slightly lowered.
Second, saying that ANet are pandering to noobs/bads/casuals or whatever your favorite derogatory term is, is just stupid. Remember in the BWE’s when everyone was complaining about the Hundred Blades Warriors, how did ANet react; they didn’t, exactly the same when loads of people were complaining about the Mesmer survivability and utility, they lowered the damage and recharge of Phantasm attacks. Or what about the Guardian and their damage potential? Largely unchanged. ANet assess the situation on skills, abilities or whatnot themselves, if they feel a change is needed, then obviously something has to be done about it because it’s not acting as intended or players are using it in unintended ways.
Finally, Anet are trying to work to increase their longevity of their game, you really think heavily nerfing a class is their priority? If so, you are sadly mistaken, especially when that class is a fundamental part of almost every MMORPG.
Extra: SFtheWolf – I couldn’t agree more about people would rather complain than adapt, and that is exactly whats happening here, on both sides of the fence.
Its not great to use warrior as an example of how whines will not lead to nerfs, because Anet have made it clear time and time again that warriors are their favourite class and “is in a good place”. An example of how whining HAS lead to a nerf is the 15% dmg reduction to pistol whip.
Your form of argument is begging the question. You’re basically saying “my premise is correct therefore my premise is correct”. Repeating your opinion that backstab is overpowered doesn’t add any weight to your case.
Also people keep assuming I build Pistol Whip or Backstab and that’s why I have something invested in this. I don’t. I just hate seeing mob rule and appeals to popular opinion winning the day. It makes me concerned for the future.
As for Pistol Whip’s ongoing viability, all I can say is I bring one stun break and every single Pistol Whip thief I fight in PvP completely falls apart. Maybe I just haven’t fought a good one yet.
You know this reminds me of the constant complaints about the Spy in TF2. Despite being just about the worst class in the game now, people are still enraged by its mere existence. Casuals (a factual statement, regardless of if it’s derogatory) refused to modify their gameplay to take into account the basic counters required to prevent one from instakilling you. In response, Valve has made it so that you can consistently hear one uncloaking behind you (and I’m not talking about the Dead Ringer).
As a result, it’s extremely rare for anyone worth their salt to be killed by a spy any more, ever. If you have headphones on and do the occasional 180 visual check, you simply will not be ambushed by one.
It’s a perfect example of the casual demographic’s demands ruining a class that takes a deliberate action or two to counter. It happens in nearly every game that has one, and I don’t want to see it happen again here.
I believe if Backstab gets outright nerfed, it will be a decisive step in that direction.
Your concern about the future is completely unfounded.
First, ArenaNet isn’t a newborn software house, neither they have no experience at all with balancing.
They have proved many times that they don’t balance around what people say in the forums, they just balance about what they think it is right. If a whole community say “hey, PW is overpowered” they don’t nerf it without thinking, they usually test the skill to figure out if it is really overpowered, test possible modified skill and finally makes the right choice in their opinion.
If you had played Guild Wars, you’ll figure out that they made really great work balancing a game which is way, way harder to balance when compared to Guild Wars 2. Right now every profession has its place, both in PvP and in PvE and there is no outstanding profession at all. Assassins, in Guild Wars, was what we can consider as the Thief precursors. They were nerfed several times, of course, but they also recived buffs when it was needed.
Also Thieves have received buffs in the BWE, probably buffs were too much and now they needs to be toned down a bit, but I don’t see the reason to worry about the future of the profession, seriously.
If now Pistol Whip as a counter, it is fine. High burst builds have to be easily countered. If they were not easy to counter (like backstab is now), they would be overpowered.
The more damage you deal with a skill, the easier it should be countered.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Your form of argument is begging the question. You’re basically saying “my premise is correct therefore my premise is correct”. Repeating your opinion that backstab is overpowered doesn’t add any weight to your case.
Also people keep assuming I build Pistol Whip or Backstab and that’s why I have something invested in this. I don’t. I just hate seeing mob rule and appeals to popular opinion winning the day. It makes me concerned for the future.
As for Pistol Whip’s ongoing viability, all I can say is I bring one stun break and every single Pistol Whip thief I fight in PvP completely falls apart. Maybe I just haven’t fought a good one yet.
You know this reminds me of the constant complaints about the Spy in TF2. Despite being just about the worst class in the game now, people are still enraged by its mere existence. Casuals (a factual statement, regardless of if it’s derogatory) refused to modify their gameplay to take into account the basic counters required to prevent one from instakilling you. In response, Valve has made it so that you can consistently hear one uncloaking behind you (and I’m not talking about the Dead Ringer).
As a result, it’s extremely rare for anyone worth their salt to be killed by a spy any more, ever. If you have headphones on and do the occasional 180 visual check, you simply will not be ambushed by one.
It’s a perfect example of the casual demographic’s demands ruining a class that takes a deliberate action or two to counter. It happens in nearly every game that has one, and I don’t want to see it happen again here.
I believe if Backstab gets outright nerfed, it will be a decisive step in that direction.
Your concern about the future is completely unfounded.
First, ArenaNet isn’t a newborn software house, neither they have no experience at all with balancing.
They have proved many times that they don’t balance around what people say in the forums, they just balance about what they think it is right. If a whole community say “hey, PW is overpowered” they don’t nerf it without thinking, they usually test the skill to figure out if it is really overpowered, test possible modified skill and finally makes the right choice in their opinion.
If you had played Guild Wars, you’ll figure out that they made really great work balancing a game which is way, way harder to balance when compared to Guild Wars 2. Right now every profession has its place, both in PvP and in PvE and there is no outstanding profession at all. Assassins, in Guild Wars, was what we can consider as the Thief precursors. They were nerfed several times, of course, but they also recived buffs when it was needed.
Also Thieves have received buffs in the BWE, probably buffs were too much and now they needs to be toned down a bit, but I don’t see the reason to worry about the future of the profession, seriously.If now Pistol Whip as a counter, it is fine. High burst builds have to be easily countered. If they were not easy to counter (like backstab is now), they would be overpowered.
The more damage you deal with a skill, the easier it should be countered.
Even though i do believe that Anet made the right choice nerfing PW, they hit the wrong part of the combo and that really antagonised the community against them. The dmg wasn’t that part that was making it OP, it was the fact that u can pull off around 2 during the duration of haste. Wot they should’ve done is either reduce the stun duration or rebalance quickness. Right now, you can only really use PW as an interrupt because the sword autoattack out dps’s it, which is fine, but for 5 initiative, you would expect a bit more than just a stun and some mediocre dmg.
again: the problem is NOT backstab.
The problem is how backstab interacts with other skills and that a build can instagib ppl using 3 (three, not one but three) skills, usually comboed with other utility skills (venom, haste, etc…).
They have to break that combo or make damage scale differently with power.
a backstab nerf will kill a lot of good (but not OP) builds…
In any case, it the nerf will be too hard we will find something else…
Black Thunders [BT] – Gandara
Who will invite to party thief which is now almost unusable on dungeons with glass HP and almost no damage?
I can tell you from experience that having a Thief in your party which simply supports their party with Daze, Blind and Blast finishers already makes (at least some) dungeons noticeable easier. Just because a profession isn’t good at a very specific playstyle doesn’t mean that said profession is bad.
And you really believe Thief’s Shortbow needs a buff?!? It’s properly the best weapon in the game and I wouldn’t wonder if it will be nerfed in one of the next patches.
My money is on a general spike damage nerf across all professions not just a back-stab nerf. My hope is it will also come with some sort of PvP downed state nerf, maybe half the starting health in downed state for PvP.
I bet thieves will still have top notch burst relative to all other classes.
My money is on a general spike damage nerf across all professions not just a back-stab nerf. My hope is it will also come with some sort of PvP downed state nerf, maybe half the starting health in downed state for PvP.
I bet thieves will still have top notch burst relative to all other classes.
If it’s genuinely across the board I would be fine with that (though I don’t think it necessary), so long as the damage doesn’t get too too low. I really enjoy playing the role of a predator culling the herd and want that to remain viable in group situations.
Your form of argument is begging the question. You’re basically saying “my premise is correct therefore my premise is correct”. Repeating your opinion that backstab is overpowered doesn’t add any weight to your case.
Also people keep assuming I build Pistol Whip or Backstab and that’s why I have something invested in this. I don’t. I just hate seeing mob rule and appeals to popular opinion winning the day. It makes me concerned for the future.
As for Pistol Whip’s ongoing viability, all I can say is I bring one stun break and every single Pistol Whip thief I fight in PvP completely falls apart. Maybe I just haven’t fought a good one yet.
You know this reminds me of the constant complaints about the Spy in TF2. Despite being just about the worst class in the game now, people are still enraged by its mere existence. Casuals (a factual statement, regardless of if it’s derogatory) refused to modify their gameplay to take into account the basic counters required to prevent one from instakilling you. In response, Valve has made it so that you can consistently hear one uncloaking behind you (and I’m not talking about the Dead Ringer).
As a result, it’s extremely rare for anyone worth their salt to be killed by a spy any more, ever. If you have headphones on and do the occasional 180 visual check, you simply will not be ambushed by one.
It’s a perfect example of the casual demographic’s demands ruining a class that takes a deliberate action or two to counter. It happens in nearly every game that has one, and I don’t want to see it happen again here.
I believe if Backstab gets outright nerfed, it will be a decisive step in that direction.
Your concern about the future is completely unfounded.
First, ArenaNet isn’t a newborn software house, neither they have no experience at all with balancing.
They have proved many times that they don’t balance around what people say in the forums, they just balance about what they think it is right. If a whole community say “hey, PW is overpowered” they don’t nerf it without thinking, they usually test the skill to figure out if it is really overpowered, test possible modified skill and finally makes the right choice in their opinion.
If you had played Guild Wars, you’ll figure out that they made really great work balancing a game which is way, way harder to balance when compared to Guild Wars 2. Right now every profession has its place, both in PvP and in PvE and there is no outstanding profession at all. Assassins, in Guild Wars, was what we can consider as the Thief precursors. They were nerfed several times, of course, but they also recived buffs when it was needed.
Also Thieves have received buffs in the BWE, probably buffs were too much and now they needs to be toned down a bit, but I don’t see the reason to worry about the future of the profession, seriously.If now Pistol Whip as a counter, it is fine. High burst builds have to be easily countered. If they were not easy to counter (like backstab is now), they would be overpowered.
The more damage you deal with a skill, the easier it should be countered.
Where did I say I didn’t play Guild Wars 1? I did, a lot.
In fact I’m surprised you don’t remember Smiter’s Boon, or smiting at all, or Shroud of Silence getting a dramatic nerf when it was already laughably bad, or touch rangers. There were plenty of really bizarre balance decisions.
Not that I’m saying they’re not devoted to long-term balance. I wouldn’t question their sincerity on that for a second considering the support they’ve given the first game. They’re pretty much the anti-Capcom that way.
Where did I say I didn’t play Guild Wars 1? I did, a lot.
In fact I’m surprised you don’t remember Smiter’s Boon, or smiting at all, or Shroud of Silence getting a dramatic nerf when it was already laughably bad, or touch rangers. There were plenty of really bizarre balance decisions.
Not that I’m saying they’re not devoted to long-term balance. I wouldn’t question their sincerity on that for a second considering the support they’ve given the first game. They’re pretty much the anti-Capcom that way.
I remember those build, but I also remember bspike, iway, palm strike, seeping wound, backbreaker and so on.
Guild Wars was a really hard game to balance consider the huge amount of skills and the unexpected combinations that would grow popular on a skill change, but still they have done a great job.
I don’t think they will do bad balancing on a game which is that easy to balance like Guild Wars 2 is.
Where did I say I didn’t play Guild Wars 1? I did, a lot.
In fact I’m surprised you don’t remember Smiter’s Boon, or smiting at all, or Shroud of Silence getting a dramatic nerf when it was already laughably bad, or touch rangers. There were plenty of really bizarre balance decisions.
Not that I’m saying they’re not devoted to long-term balance. I wouldn’t question their sincerity on that for a second considering the support they’ve given the first game. They’re pretty much the anti-Capcom that way.
I remember those build, but I also remember bspike, iway, palm strike, seeping wound, backbreaker and so on.
Guild Wars was a really hard game to balance consider the huge amount of skills and the unexpected combinations that would grow popular on a skill change, but still they have done a great job.
I don’t think they will do bad balancing on a game which is that easy to balance like Guild Wars 2 is.
Definitely, I’d agree with you there.
I think one major element of the issue at hand here (excluding the people who are just raging) is the matter of where to place our balancing point of reference.
I personally think that GW2 is unbelievably balanced for a game of its scope that has only been out 3 months. The changes I see being needed are primarily related to enabling greater build variety (which is fortunately a priority in Anet’s books, according to the upcoming Ranger changes).
I genuinely don’t see anything as being overpowered in this game. The easiest of easy mode combos are way way simpler to counter than in most competitive games I play. Sure I got stomped by daze into 100b the first few times, but I learned from it and I don’t any more, and I’d argue for keeping that as potent as it is right now as well.
I’m much more in favour of empowering or redesigning the underutilized tools in the game, rather than smothering strategies which happen to stick out as flavours of the moment.
a backstab nerf will kill a lot of good (but not OP) builds…
A properly instituted backstab “nerf” will create a bunch of builds while degrading the effectiveness of builds specifically meant to reduce TTK to 2-3 seconds.
And you really believe Thief’s Shortbow needs a buff?!? It’s properly the best weapon in the game and I wouldn’t wonder if it will be nerfed in one of the next patches.
And you’ll probably be one of the first people to start calling for SB nerfs. You really want to see thieves smooshed into nothingness don’t you?
I don’t think they will do bad balancing on a game which is that easy to balance like Guild Wars 2 is.
Sorry, but I can´t agree on that, GW2 is probably the most difficult MMO in the terms of balancing now. Mostly because a lot of skills/traits are not working as intended or have side effects (like the rendering issue for example) or just because some classes traits are weirdly designed that it is in conflict with the class mechanic (Elementalist for example).
#ELEtism 4ever
First of all i think there are a lot of bugs regarding thieves that play in thieves favors. Take for example the stealth ability. EVerytime a thief jumps on me from stealth it takes at least 2 or 3 shots before i actually see the character, considering how much damage a thief can pull does every shot its Deadly.
Now lets talk about backstab build I have tried all the glass cannon classes and out of them alli never say any that could kill others in such a small amount of hits. On my elementalist i am getting 3 shotted every time: Steal >cloak and dagger > backstab and if iam still alive Number 2. The worst of this is that it doesnt even require more than 4 initiative to kill someone and if that person is not dead just have to spam Heartseeker and no matter who you are (unless point holder spec ofc but then you cant kill anything either) you are 100% dead.
If they dont nerf the thief i expect at least other glass cannon classes to get a boost to make it as OP as thief.
If thief was not as OP i dont think we would see Spvp with up to 4 or 5 thieves in every teams.
Its killing the game class balance either a nerf or a Major boost on other glass canon burst is required.
I think folks need to wait and see what the changes are before QQing up a storm about it. Hopefully they fix the rendering issue before nerfing too much as I do feel that plays greatly into the problems with the thief class. Far to much survivability provided by stealth atm
~ AoN ~
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