If you're playing condi thief in ranked
Any condition build has conditions that can be cleansed along with weak cleave. This not restricted to the thief.
Now surely in such a match there others with cleave on a team and is a thief generally the one tasked with cleaving a downed enemy?
Do conditions builds work in PvP or do they not because both on PVP boards and on Wvw I am reading a whole lot of “they are op”.
You’re exactly right. This is not restricted to thief. This is why there are so few condition builds within the meta for competitive sPvP players. Currently, only mesmers and necros are optimal with using condi in sPvP. This is partly because their cleave is fantastic (necros) or they have more CC than other condi builds for helping prevent rezzes (mesmers). Condi thieves are a liability for some of the same reasons condi druids and engineers are.
Yes, a thief is usually tasked with contributing to cleave. Our mobility allows us to generally contribute to most kills in a match. Staff builds can be amazing at this and D/P builds can do enough if the fight isn’t too big. Keep in mind this is a discussion about condi thieves in ranked sPvP where the game-play is generally more competitive and the optimal build choices are fewer. Condi thief can be incredible against newer players and, as you know from your own experience, strong in WvW as well. In the upper divisions of ranked sPvP, however, it’s a huge liability. Lack of cleave is probably the biggest reason why.
(edited by rennlc.7346)
Any condition build has conditions that can be cleansed along with weak cleave. This not restricted to the thief.
Now surely in such a match there others with cleave on a team and is a thief generally the one tasked with cleaving a downed enemy?
Do conditions builds work in PvP or do they not because both on PVP boards and on Wvw I am reading a whole lot of “they are op”.
You’re exactly right. This is not restricted to thief. This is why there are so few condition builds within the meta for competitive sPvP players. Currently, only mesmers and necros are optimal with using condi in sPvP. This is partly because their cleave is fantastic (necros) or they have more CC than other condi builds for helping prevent rezzes (mesmers). Condi thieves are a liability for some of the same reasons condi druids and engineers are.
Yes, a thief is usually tasked with contributing to cleave. Our mobility allows us to generally contribute to most kills in a match. Staff builds can be amazing at this and D/P builds can do enough if the fight isn’t too big. Keep in mind this is a discussion about condi thieves in ranked sPvP where the game-play is generally more competitive and the optimal build choices are fewer. Condi thief can be incredible against newer players and, as you know from your own experience, strong in WvW as well. In the upper divisions of ranked sPvP, however, it’s a huge liability. Lack of cleave is probably the biggest reason why.
This just another reason i think thief SB choking gas requires a boost. This by applying 2 stacks per tick at minimum along with an extension to the field of 1 second. That AOE can act as the cleave.
The only makeup I see for the lack of damage on a cleave is boosts to the AOE condition fields a thief has but that said this does not necessarily translate to the p/d condition build itself being too weak.
As far as WvW is concerned I tend to use the Immob CC in conjunction with needle trap to keep rezzers off a person I am trying to down or just do the immob and let the warrior types use their cleave if a rez attempted. I am pretty sure a team in PvP can work around that lack of cleave in a condition build by ensuring the team members with cleave use it.
When I am in WvW and see a person trying to rez a downed, I will steal to the rezzer and apply all of those conditions along with that immob. if they persist in the rez the conditions tick and you can very often ende up with two downed. Not as efficent as cleaving both at once to be sure but you can not have everything in a build.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
I understand you can make condi work well enough for your liking in WvW. The majority of the negativity in this thread directed toward condi thieves is directed at those who play it in ranked sPvP. That’s where we’re telling people to play power builds.
I understand you can make condi work well enough for your liking in WvW. The majority of the negativity in this thread directed toward condi thieves is directed at those who play it in ranked sPvP. That’s where we’re telling people to play power builds.
That is not what i see at all. I see a group of people who have found something that works for them unwilling to entertain the thought that any other build/style can work and unwilling to adapt to other builds.
It regimented thinking. That unwillingness to try and adapt their builds to other playstyles or types is limiting . If they are not very top tier and can not prove a win every time they play with their own version of how things should be done than the claims “no other style but this works” does not have merit.
You should not be “telling” people what they should play in any format .
My way or the highway only works when one can demonstrate they win each and every match no matter the skill level. If one has a 60 percent win rate using power as compare dto a 40 percent win rate using condi, nothing is really proven.
I understand that the way PvP constructed leads to this type of thinking on the part of the player as made evidentby the OP. It is also why I find PvP not to my liking as it far to limiting which made even worse by the DEMAND that people should only play a defined and approved build.
Unless it can be demonstrated a gven build just can not function in the game mode in question the onus to adapt ones gameplay so as to suit the composition of the team in question is just as much on the OP as it is on the person that decides to play a condition thief.
If the OP can not adapt to that than it his own build or gameplay style that is limiting.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
I understand you can make condi work well enough for your liking in WvW. The majority of the negativity in this thread directed toward condi thieves is directed at those who play it in ranked sPvP. That’s where we’re telling people to play power builds.
That is not what i see at all. I see a group of people who have found something that works for them unwilling to entertain the thought that any other build/style can work and unwilling to adapt to other builds.
It regimented thinking. That unwillingness to try and adapt their builds to other playstyles or types is limiting . If they are not very top tier and can not prove a win every time they play with their own version of how things should be done than the claims “no other style but this works” does not have merit.
You should not be “telling” people what they should play in any format .
My way or the highway only works when one can demonstrate they win each and every match no matter the skill level. If one has a 60 percent win rate using power as compare dto a 40 percent win rate using condi, nothing is really proven.
I understand that the way PvP constructed leads to this type of thinking on the part of the player as made evidentby the OP. It is also why I find PvP not to my liking as it far to limiting which made even worse by the DEMAND that people should only play a defined and approved build.
Baba if you genuinely believe that I’m generally guilty of regimented thinking and that I reject non-meta builds out of hand, come duel me on my condi rev. It’s usually laughed at by people who are living 1 year ago after its initial nerfs, it’s actually quite strong. I play it all the time for its versatility. I’ve also been enjoying FA ele, even took it into a few ranked matches today b/c I’m a Phantaram wannabe.
My isssue with condi thief isn’t this philosophical “regimented thinking” mental obstacle that you’ve referred to. It’s watching condi thieves fail over. And over. And over. To achieve kills against players who know how to press V. The burst is weak, and yes the cleave is terrible. This thread is about condi thief’s unviability in ranked, that’s it, and I made it after too much playing with/against condi thieves, not too little. If they were effective then this thread would not exist. I couldn’t care less about whatever off-meta build somebody plays (like core bunker guard) so long as it plays its role well and doesn’t force a loss. But the latter is precisely what condi thieves do: they fail to contribute to a useful role due to slow time-to-kill and low survivability. If this were a 1v1 game mode then I wouldn’t care because I wouldn’t be playing the build myself.
That is not what i see at all. I see a group of people who have found something that works for them unwilling to entertain the thought that any other build/style can work and unwilling to adapt to other builds.
It regimented thinking. That unwillingness to try and adapt their builds to other playstyles or types is limiting . If they are not very top tier and can not prove a win every time they play with their own version of how things should be done than the claims “no other style but this works” does not have merit.
You should not be “telling” people what they should play in any format .
My way or the highway only works when one can demonstrate they win each and every match no matter the skill level. If one has a 60 percent win rate using power as compare dto a 40 percent win rate using condi, nothing is really proven.
I understand that the way PvP constructed leads to this type of thinking on the part of the player as made evidentby the OP. It is also why I find PvP not to my liking as it far to limiting which made even worse by the DEMAND that people should only play a defined and approved build.
The problem isn’t that their builds aren’t working. The D/D death blossom and evade spamming condi thieves are working in sPvP! They’re destroying the lower divisions and allowing their users to be more commonly matched with better and better players. However, they’re only working up until a certain point. Once condi thieves start getting matched in games entirely against meta builds, condi thieves start becoming much, much less useful and start putting their teammates at a handicap.
My argument isn’t “no other style works but this”. My argument is overall, power thief builds are working more consistently than condi thieves over many games in the upper divisions of sPvP. These arguments are being made from our experiences in trying to win. There’s little pleasure in winning because a team was handicapped with a condi thief player and an incredible amount of frustration in losing in large part because of a condi thief teammate.
Sure, these arguments can be seen as intrusive, demanding, and elitist. However, they’re also being made to inform other players about what type of play-styles we can learn and what builds we can use to win without hitting a glass ceiling (like the current glass ceiling for condi thief builds and their effectiveness in sPvP). We’re arguing to spare ourselves and others from the frustrations of certain choices. These intrusive, demanding, and elitist arguments are also a resource for newer players to make more informed decisions about what they may attempt to learn to do within GW2. If all you see is the elitism, then look wider. Look wider because you’re missing the best, most helpful part of this type of discussion. It’s the part where people can use the experiences of others to help narrow options and pursue goals more optimally and more quickly.
(edited by rennlc.7346)
That is not what i see at all. I see a group of people who have found something that works for them unwilling to entertain the thought that any other build/style can work and unwilling to adapt to other builds.
It regimented thinking. That unwillingness to try and adapt their builds to other playstyles or types is limiting . If they are not very top tier and can not prove a win every time they play with their own version of how things should be done than the claims “no other style but this works” does not have merit.
You should not be “telling” people what they should play in any format .
My way or the highway only works when one can demonstrate they win each and every match no matter the skill level. If one has a 60 percent win rate using power as compare dto a 40 percent win rate using condi, nothing is really proven.
I understand that the way PvP constructed leads to this type of thinking on the part of the player as made evidentby the OP. It is also why I find PvP not to my liking as it far to limiting which made even worse by the DEMAND that people should only play a defined and approved build.
The problem isn’t that their builds aren’t working. The D/D death blossom and evade spamming condi thieves are working in sPvP! They’re destroying the lower divisions and allowing their users to be more commonly matched with better and better players. However, they’re only working up until a certain point. Once condi thieves start getting matched in games entirely against meta builds, condi thieves start becoming much, much less useful and start putting their teammates at a handicap.
My argument isn’t “no other style works but this”. My argument is overall, power thief builds are working more consistently than condi thieves over many games in the upper divisions of sPvP. These arguments are being made from our experiences in trying to win. There’s little pleasure in winning because a team was handicapped with a condi thief player and an incredible amount of frustration in losing in large part because of a condi thief teammate.
Sure, these arguments can be seen as intrusive, demanding, and elitist. However, they’re also being made to inform other players about what type of play-styles we can learn and what builds we can use to win without hitting a glass ceiling (like the current glass ceiling for condi thief builds and their effectiveness in sPvP). We’re arguing to spare ourselves and others from the frustrations of certain choices. These intrusive, demanding, and elitist arguments are also a resource for newer players to make more informed decisions about what they may attempt to learn to do within GW2. If all you see is the elitism, then look wider. Look wider because you’re missing the best, most helpful part of this type of discussion. It’s the part where people can use the experiences of others to help narrow options and pursue goals more optimally and more quickly.
I am sorry but all i can see is if there a condition thief on my team I can not win.
You play what you have control over. A thief should play the build he feels most comfortable with. A lousy d/p thief is worse then a good p/d thief. If YOU as a player can not adapt to the players on your team then there a weakness with you. You can not dictate what another can play so you best learn how to play with others.
I have played a d/d db thief and understand the weaknesses. If they work at lower levels of play in PVP then so be it. it works at lower levels of play in WvW. The d/d db thief has serious issues when it faces better players as the ability to adapt to a given build or do other then that DB/evade is limiting and easily countered.
P/d is superior as far as condition builds goes in WvW. It can destroy DB buids with relative ease and can much more readily deal with the builds the DB build has issues with and especially if one uses boon theft with RS.
the ability to tear away all of an enemies boons in short order along with Immobs on demand does far more for a team then does a DB build. If, as you claim, that DB build works at lower levels then it logical to conclude a p/d build capable of more.
if you do not believe ripping all off the boons of an enemy and immobilizing him at will while loading conditions on him not helpful to a team then I need more then your examples of experience premised on experiences which are"we have always done things this way". I want to know why it not helpful.
if you dictate that a thief can only play power builds and 90 percent of your experiences are with thieves with power builds then what we have is confirmation bias and nothing more.
from what I gather the single biggest contribution a thief makes in PvP is his mobility and plus one ability neither of which are sacrificed in a condition thief outisde that cleave.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
By the way I have to add this. It stated that the people demanding thieves not play a condition build “speak from experience”. The OP made the claim that one of the weaknesses of a condition thief is the lack of access to cover conditions which is simply false.
how does that speak to experience?
weakness, vulnerability, imob, heck even nearly constant access to bleed (which acts as a cover condition when you can constantly apply it) the thief has plenty of access to cover conditions. for their torment, poison, and bleed. (yeah bleed can perform a dual role here)
I’ve been testing out a condi d/d thief in ranked and I like it, I’m gonna continue playing it to have fun (the main point of the game) and I’m not gonna uninstall.
I’ll point out that with venom share being baseline that even sharing the venoms with just two teammates increases the torment stacks by 8 and the poison by 12 on a focused target.
(This is in response to babazhook.)
If there is a condi thief on our team in ranked sPvP in games against higher ranked players, there is a lower chance to win than if they had spent their time learning a power build instead. This is what our experiences of playing with and against condi thieves are telling us. I’m criticizing condi thieves in sPvP because although they are viable against newer players in sPvP, it’s preferable to play with and against players who spend their playing time learning more optimal builds for higher level play. It’s preferable to play with and against players who don’t play condi builds on their thieves in sPvP.
You accuse me of confirmation bias but I see exactly where, why, and how condi thieves work well at lower levels of play. In lower divisions, players are more likely to play offensive stats, like playing marauder or berserker stats on a DH or engi rather than mender’s. They’re more likely to rotate to edge nodes to fight condi classes, like mesmers and condi thieves. In the upper divisions, players don’t do this. They play mender’s amulet, an amulet that counters condition builds, and volunteer to handle condi players who attack edge nodes. (Thus, a mesmer is more preferable for this role because they can either portal a teammate into a losing 1v1 match-up against mender’s builds or portal out and outnumber elsewhere.)
Why the focus on edge nodes?
Because that’s where condi thieves are carrying games the hardest at lower levels of play. It’s not the P/D thieves or the venom share thieves who are the most difficult for newer players to handle. It’s the D/D evade spamming condi thieves. They’re not doing this by going into big team fights because their cleave is awful and being around too many random CC’s results in a quick death. They’re not carrying games in a +1 roaming and decap role because condi builds move and kill so slowly in comparison to well-played DP and staff builds. All those extra seconds it takes to down a player we’re outnumbering add up and eventually we’re not arriving in time to prevent teammates from losing 1v1 and 2v2 fights with our +1. D/D condi thieves are carrying lower level games by being able to hold nodes against 1-2 players like a bunker and kill players using sub-optimal builds at the same time.
How do we know condi thieves kill too slowly in a +1 roaming role?
Before HoT, the rule of thumb for +1ing was about 16-18 seconds. If it took longer than 16-18 seconds to down and finish a player in a fight we’re +1ing, the opposing team is gaining an advantage. If it takes less time, our team is gaining an advantage. Right now, the window for getting a kill is shorter for non-dash builds because they move at the same speed as pre-HoT builds while other HoT classes have gotten more mobile. The window for dash thief is larger because they +1 faster than anything else in the game. What does this mean for condi thieves? It means if you’re not playing dash as a condi thief, you have ~12-15 seconds to make a +1 that actually helps your team and your condis take half that time to do their work. If any of your burst conditions get cleared, you’re unlikely to get a kill in an optimal amount of time. It doesn’t matter if you’re removing boons with Rending Shade if players are still not going down in an optimal amount of time. (And that’s if you’re even landing CnD and not having Sneak Attack countered by the numerous projectile counters used in sPvP meta builds, like tempest and scrapper.
Nevertheless, here’s what I suspect is happening. I’m making lengthy arguments in response to the numerous errors in your estimations and you’re responding by not wanting to read all this (more errors = more things I want to point out = more words used in a post). Thus, you’re oversimplifying what I’m attempting to articulate and “all you see” is some overly simple meaning, like “Oh, this guy just doesn’t like condi thieves!”
Frankly, I don’t care whether you or not you continue to do this. I know you’re a WvW player who has qualms with some of the split second time of D/P builds that rely on PI. Because it’s unlikely we’ll be playing together in sPvP, I don’t care if you play P/D, D/P, or don’t equip a a weapon at all and attempt to defeat opponents by whispering them bad puns. I don’t care if you continue to only see what you want to see.
What I care about is helping other people better pursue challenges because that’s one of if not the most rewarding parts of life. In GW2, the biggest challenge this game has is trying to beat the regular ESL/AG players. With practice and an optimal build, this can be done. Right now, if we play condi thief in sPvP, we’re not playing an optimal build. We’re making this potentially rewarding challenge much more difficult from the get-go. If this concept has no appeal to you, oh well.
(edited by rennlc.7346)
Rennlc like I said in my first post, these are primarily solo Q players. In other words, people who don’t spend their time talking, listening, and collaborating with other players on strategy and tactics. And that’s exactly why they play these builds, lack of sufficient input to show them why these condi builds are ineffective. Unless they have a major personality shift, or improve their reading skills, this conversation will go nowhere.
>>Frankly, I don’t care whether you or not you continue to do this. I know you’re a WvW player who has qualms with some of the split second time of D/P builds that rely on PI. Because it’s unlikely we’ll be playing together in sPvP, I don’t care if you play P/D, D/P, or don’t equip a a weapon at all and attempt to defeat opponents by whispering them bad puns. I don’t care if you continue to only see what you want to see.
you KNOW I have qualms about the split second timing needed for d/p? Where did that come from? I use headshot on my power builds with regularity and hardly have qualms about it.
As I stated many times I play 5 different thieves and 3.5 of them are power. Only one is condition and I spend more time on power. Unlike far too many I am not dissauded from trying a build because the community does not approve of it.
My point to PvP is that people should play what works best for them and not what other persons deem optimal or those other persons might as well be allowed to dictate not only your weapons chosen , but the profession you decide to play.
This is after all a game and there would be less toxicity if the people started to realise it a game. What should probably happen is those persons concerned with only winning and forming optimal teams should be grouped together in a division all of their own while the more casual player there just to have fun , try new builds and optimize the builds they favour can do so.
This will likely not happen. They will continue to mix these types together and like ANY game the player has to learn to deal with that fact rather then try and dictate their own playstyle to another.
Oh and as to challenge? if a given build , no matter the weapon set or class deemed sub optimal and the player using it goes into PvP and helps to defeat a team considered optimal is that not a challenge met and a goal accomplished?
When I read on the boards that XXX build is trash one of the first things I do and have always done is try out that build and see if i can in fact make it work. I see that as a challenge. I am not imposing this view of how to play the game on anyone else because I recognize others have different goals and different challenges.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
I’ll point out that with venom share being baseline that even sharing the venoms with just two teammates increases the torment stacks by 8 and the poison by 12 on a focused target.
along with 8 vuln which is better then a burst sigil damage wise.
Ironically, in a +1 (i.e. Team fights), my kill time is roughly 6 seconds or so. Not sure where you are getting this 12 second number and assuming I can’t contribute. The maximum tick time for my burst is 6-8 seconds.
And I do try to coordinate with my team. Obviously, if your team can’t focus/call targets and can’t win the map mechanics then condi vs power isn’t the issue.
If thief fits into mobility decap and team fight support then that describes me. My shareable venoms with aoe poison and targeted focus damage can be effective in the +1 area. My mobility is also better than many thieves running more traditional builds.
you KNOW I have qualms about the split second timing needed for d/p? Where did that come from? I use headshot on my power builds with regularity and hardly have qualms about it.
As I stated many times I play 5 different thieves and 3.5 of them are power. Only one is condition and I spend more time on power. Unlike far too many I am not dissauded from trying a build because the community does not approve of it.
My point to PvP is that people should play what works best for them and not what other persons deem optimal or those other persons might as well be allowed to dictate not only your weapons chosen , but the profession you decide to play.
This is after all a game and there would be less toxicity if the people started to realise it a game. What should probably happen is those persons concerned with only winning and forming optimal teams should be grouped together in a division all of their own while the more casual player there just to have fun , try new builds and optimize the builds they favour can do so.
This will likely not happen. They will continue to mix these types together and like ANY game the player has to learn to deal with that fact rather then try and dictate their own playstyle to another.
Oh and as to challenge? if a given build , no matter the weapon set or class deemed sub optimal and the player using it goes into PvP and helps to defeat a team considered optimal is that not a challenge met and a goal accomplished?
When I read on the boards that XXX build is trash one of the first things I do and have always done is try out that build and see if i can in fact make it work. I see that as a challenge. I am not imposing this view of how to play the game on anyone else because I recognize others have different goals and different challenges.
Unless I’m mistaken, it came from the thread about Rending Shade where you stated you were an older player who preferred not to depend on headshot and PI. I didn’t bring this up to insult you but to highlight a legitimate reason someone may opt not to play a specific meta build.
Do you react to all suggestions like this? For example, in grade school when instrutors gave us lessons on addition, they were basically dictating to us that 2+2=4. When we’re taught about history, they’re basically dictating to us what that history is. Did you object similarly to these instances of being told what to do? I don’t think so. I think you found the information helpful or, at the very least, tolerable. So why is it when sPvP players supply information, such as by citing the typical end results of the attempts of others at playing condi thief in ranked sPvP, this suddenly becomes more than you want to tolerate?
I think you find us unlikable. If this is true, this perception makes it harder to see the truth: our experiences as sPvP players are resources. Underneath what you find unlikable are lessons. These lessons can be used to make better decisions in any pursuits you may take at climbing the rankings in sPvP, such as by learning the more optimal thief roles with builds that don’t have the same glass ceiling as our current condi builds. We’re here to help (even when we don’t seem like it).
you KNOW I have qualms about the split second timing needed for d/p? Where did that come from? I use headshot on my power builds with regularity and hardly have qualms about it.
As I stated many times I play 5 different thieves and 3.5 of them are power. Only one is condition and I spend more time on power. Unlike far too many I am not dissauded from trying a build because the community does not approve of it.
My point to PvP is that people should play what works best for them and not what other persons deem optimal or those other persons might as well be allowed to dictate not only your weapons chosen , but the profession you decide to play.
This is after all a game and there would be less toxicity if the people started to realise it a game. What should probably happen is those persons concerned with only winning and forming optimal teams should be grouped together in a division all of their own while the more casual player there just to have fun , try new builds and optimize the builds they favour can do so.
This will likely not happen. They will continue to mix these types together and like ANY game the player has to learn to deal with that fact rather then try and dictate their own playstyle to another.
Oh and as to challenge? if a given build , no matter the weapon set or class deemed sub optimal and the player using it goes into PvP and helps to defeat a team considered optimal is that not a challenge met and a goal accomplished?
When I read on the boards that XXX build is trash one of the first things I do and have always done is try out that build and see if i can in fact make it work. I see that as a challenge. I am not imposing this view of how to play the game on anyone else because I recognize others have different goals and different challenges.
Unless I’m mistaken, it came from the thread about Rending Shade where you stated you were an older player who preferred not to depend on headshot and PI. I didn’t bring this up to insult you.
Do you react to all suggestions like this? For example, in grade school when instrutors gave us lessons on addition, they were basically dictating to us that 2+2=4. When we’re taught about history, they’re basically dictating to us what that history is. Did you object similarly to these instances of being told what to do? I don’t think so. I think you found the information helpful or, at the very least, tolerable. So why is it when sPvP players supply information, such as by citing the typical end results of the attempts of others at playing condi thief in ranked sPvP, this suddenly becomes more than you want to tolerate?
I think you find us unlikable. If this is true, this perception makes it harder to see the truth: our experiences as sPvP players are resources. Underneath what you find unlikable are lessons. These lessons can be used to make better decisions in any pursuits you may take at climbing the rankings in sPvP, such as by learning the more optimal thief roles with builds that don’t have the same glass ceiling as our current condi builds. We’re here to help (even when we don’t seem like it).
Actually my issue as an older player was not headshot. I find that relatively easy to pull off. It was CnD which is why I rely on other sources of stealth in order to use RS.
My interrupt power build has a low crit rate and uses interrupts and bound with DD runes to make up for that damage loss.
As to our educational system. I had a teacher in grade 7 who upon teaching us out of a book in History class then challenged us to question the very premises of the lesson. I then began to research this stuff on my own through other sources and learned much of what we were taught was simply wrong and distorted. I think that a good life lesson.
It the difference between learning by rote and critical thinking.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Ah, what was your objection to D/P in that thread then?
Also, I’ll ask again. Why is it when we tell you what to do to win more games that this is seen as intrusive and demanding? Life is full of suggestions we tolerate and enjoy. Why can’t these suggestions be like those? Isn’t it possible you’re perceiving what we’re saying as being said in a much more negative tone than we’re intending?
It the difference between learning by rote and critical thinking.
I agree there needs to be some critical thinking. However, it seems we disagree over how much critical thinking is occurring within the formation of GW2’s sPvP meta. In other words, it seems you think the meta prevents critical thinking whereas I think it speeds up critical thinking for those who currently think critically.
Basically, people who conform toward what’s popular will use the meta to promote what they’re conforming to. You’re no doubt away of this. However, there are also people who simply want to use what tends to work best that will use the meta as a resource for learning from the efforts of others.
You seem to think everyone who promotes the meta are simply those who are biased toward what’s popular when this is only partly true. There’s so much more to a meta than that.
(edited by rennlc.7346)
Ah, what was your objection to D/P in that thread then?
I do not think I ever objected to d/p. I did suggest in another post that we might consider limiting stealth stacking on the same in some manner so as to head off the calls to nerf traps because of Ghost thief by peoples not understanding how that build worked.
Also, I’ll ask again. Why is it when we tell you what to do to win more games that this is seen as intrusive and demanding? Life is full of suggestions we tolerate and enjoy. Why can’t these suggestions be like those? Isn’t it possible you’re perceiving what we’re saying as being said in a much more negative tone than we’re intending?
People have to learn for themselves what weapons work best for them and this is a game where people play to have fun. it is not a life lesson. It is not a career in the workplace. It is a game.
I have no problem with you or others giving advice but will challenge any who in giving that advice make statements or claims my experience has shown me is wrong . I accept that there are all manner of peoples playing this game, some more causal than others and these people will all drift towards weapon sets or styles that they find preferable.
What I perceive you as doing is not just giving advice. What I see you as doing is stating other builds can not work in PvP based on your limted experience with the same and your preference for the style/weapon you prefer. I would give as example you dismissing RS as a trait when you never even tried it in a build.
When it comes to how well Condition builds work in PvP , I give more weight to posts by people who play those builds in PvP than to those that do not. I do not give much weight to "I had a condi thief on my team and we lost’ type statements.
A number of people who do play Conditions in PvP as a thief have come forwards indicating their builds work for them. I suggest they might know what they are talking about because they are playing them. If they come back in due course and indicate that the builds fail at the higher levels than we have good feedback as to what needed in the build to push them over the top.
It is a win win situation which is why i can not accept "you must not play XXX build in PvP’ type statements. THAT is stagnation.
I am not angry at you. I really do not get all that angry as a matter of course. I just do not agree with you on this point.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
So do you never estimate how well a build works based on how well it’s working for others, such as by viewing a stream of someone using a build or assessing it partly on how well it works against you when others use a build? Learning through observation is one of the coolest things we’re capable of doing. I don’t need to play a bunker ele to know they’re likely the best bunker class in the current game. I don’t need to play a power revenant to know they do a lot of damage. Why do players need to play condi thief to know something about them? How is learning through observation not learning for ourselves?
But I digress because I’ve actually played condi thief. I tried P/D thief in sPvP way back when I first got the game and WildBill played P/D in WvW. It seemed impressive how he was able to win 1vX almost entirely with CnD and Sneak Attack. I imagine his YouTube videos are still up. However, I quickly learned relying on CnD against non-beginners was not optimal (and this was during a point in the game where P/D was arguably stronger than it is now). I don’t have a good enough reason to try it again in sPvP considering the problems I experienced with the build and the other limitations I can expect to have, such as with cleaving.
I also played D/D condi thief when HoT first came out. My argument that D/D condi thieves can destroy newer players but struggle against top players is made largely from experience. It’s an argument I’ve become more comfortable with making as I’ve seen other condi thieves wreck beginners and sputter hopelessly against good players. If condi thieves start making a positive impact on the games I’m typically in, I’ll consider it playing it again. Until then, why bother when staff and D/P work so much better so much more often? Questioning consensus only has value when the consensus is wrong.
(edited by rennlc.7346)
Questioning consensus only has value when the consensus is wrong.
I would amend this point to say “demonstrably wrong.” The only point in this thread on which any condi thief enthusiasts have engaged in a fact-based discussion is in talking about cover conditions, which has still failed to discuss its inferiority to condi mesmer’s cover condi application. There’s no point in continuing this discussion as if condi thief is equal to power thief or other condi builds without its supporters making comparisons on their own time, and explaining why this is a great/superior style for ranked play (the only subject of this thread is condi thief in ranked sPvP).
So you haven’t played condi thief in years and you want to argue against it based on how effective you imagine it to be. Let me talk a little about condition clear mechanics and why D/D condi fails at higher level play.
D/D is the most common form of condi build for thief because a lot of players imagine that evasion will be more valuable in spvp. Unfortunately, because that evasion skill is also the main attack skill there is a HUGE amount of punishment from newer HoT (and updated post HoT) specialization traits that clear condis on being hit/block/evasion/etc. If your survival is based around constant evade with a skill that hits multiple times then ironically your survival will also contribute to the condi clear of your opponent.
D/D also lacks pressure unless it happens to be on top of your target. This makes kiting them laughably easy. Gap closers on the set are limited so it can result in the image of a thief running and death blossom’ing after a moving target that is shooting them to death.
D/D also generally won’t use stealth. This makes taking SA for Rending Shade a bad idea given the need to add more cover conditions through Deadly Arts. But this means that Resistance makes this build much much less effective. As in, completely counters this build. So any warrior or resistance generating revenant will be able to laugh off this build.
See what I’m getting at? D/D, the most commonly thought of “condi thief” build, is actually arguably the worst condi build for thief to use. It has no finesse, no mobility, and its mechanics are countered by the anti-condi abilities that were paired with HoT. So I agree with you about the limitations of one condi thief setup in higher level play. What you are ignoring is that there are other condi thief builds (including hybrid and pure condi D/P builds) that actually do better than you think is possible.
And a final point. Consensus has value as a starting point. It has less value where consensus is merely group think.
So do you never estimate how well a build works based on how well it’s working for others, such as by viewing a stream of someone using a build or assessing it partly on how well it works against you when others use a build? Learning through observation is one of the coolest things we’re capable of doing. I don’t need to play a bunker ele to know they’re likely the best bunker class in the current game. I don’t need to play a power revenant to know they do a lot of damage. Why do players need to play condi thief to know something about them? How is learning through observation not learning for ourselves?
But I digress because I’ve actually played condi thief. I tried P/D thief in sPvP way back when I first got the game and WildBill played P/D in WvW. It seemed impressive how he was able to win 1vX almost entirely with CnD and Sneak Attack. I imagine his YouTube videos are still up. However, I quickly learned relying on CnD against non-beginners was not optimal (and this was during a point in the game where P/D was arguably stronger than it is now). I don’t have a good enough reason to try it again in sPvP considering the problems I experienced with the build and the other limitations I can expect to have, such as with cleaving.
I also played D/D condi thief when HoT first came out. My argument that D/D condi thieves can destroy newer players but struggle against top players is made largely from experience. It’s an argument I’ve become more comfortable with making as I’ve seen other condi thieves wreck beginners and sputter hopelessly against good players. If condi thieves start making a positive impact on the games I’m typically in, I’ll consider it playing it again. Until then, why bother when staff and D/P work so much better so much more often? Questioning consensus only has value when the consensus is wrong.
Watching any streamed video of another thief in action must be done with a grain of salt. Very few will show their losses and while showing all of their wins giving the illusion the build better than it is.
The best way to determine the capabiltties of a build is to play one for yourself and do so extensively. It not something you can determine in 2 weeks play because you will need at least that long to break you of the habits of the build you more used to.
I used to hate SB and rarely used it until I told myself even If I found it ineffective for my style of play I am going to do everything with SB for the next two months of play including combat. It now a staple and second nature.
As I have stated I currently play 5 different thieves. I found it easier just to change the toon then all the gear when I want a different style. I generally play one style for weeks a time before switching off. When I do this there a period of time I have to “relearn” the differences in playstyle.
In so doing I can quite easily compare how well each build functions, against a wide variety of opponents to each other using the same constant (myself) in each and every case.
You can certainly get advice and ideas from other players and look to what they describe as a builds weaknesses and strengths but that hardly means you then must accept their experience. What works for them might not work for you (Ie some of the streams show a relative ease getting a CnD off. I find it harder)
Having tried p/d way back then does not translate into having tried it now. Much has changed and I find the set more effective overall when used properly.
I can understand it does not work for you and you prefer other sets. I have a problem with your claims that because it does not work for you, it can not work for anyone else.
Are you guys really not aware the effectiveness of something can also be determined by observing others in their attempts and this is a fundamental component of our learning of anything? When we watch comedians tell jokes, we’re learning a little about the delivery and telling of jokes despite never performing as comedians ourselves. We can infer conclusions about GW2 builds in a similar fashion as well, like seeing that D/P thieves are weaker in 1v1s from watching even extremely good D/P thieves failing to win 1v1s in their streamed videos while other skilled players playing other classes do not. We have this incredible aspect of how we learn and you guys want to ignore it to blindly promote your loyalty to a currently sub-optimal build.
Screw the argument about GW2 builds. Whether or not we win or lose ranked sPvP games is really inconsequential compared to other matters, like understanding basic aspects of the human psyche. Why are some of us unable to believe observational learning exists? Are there no instances in your lives where you’ve watched someone do something, seen what it resulted in, and thought “Maybe I should do that too!” or “Wow, that went badly… I won’t try that”?
Are you going to ignore me and focus on an esoteric argument about observational learning? There is a clear difference between observational (i.e. playing against the build is question) and watching a video on youtube. You and baba may be talking about different things in that sense (him youtube and you fighting in spvp matches).
There aren’t that many videos of condi P/D out there. You can’t say much from a relative lack of evidence.
Condi thief is a hit or miss, I’ve developed a personal condi build that i got legendary 4 times in a row with ease and have a 66% or up win rate with, even when playing at the skill level with the pros, which i do often. Condi thief gets its bad name because they normally run along acrobatics and is just a dodge and deathblossom spam build, and everyone perceives that as the only way to run it. The actual high skilled condi thieves do not run acrobatics at all and actually play condi thief like a regular thief but with more dueling potential and condi damage instead of power. Only problem is they do lose some mobility and they do lose access to stealth (unless its a variation of my condi build). Im currently ranked within the top 100 and i know i can rank higher once i get back from vacation with a 66% win rate. LOng story short, condi thief can be viable and deadly in the right hands, most of the time its not though.
Legendary x 4 Condi Thief https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCCwZ5yQ700
Are you going to ignore me and focus on an esoteric argument about observational learning? There is a clear difference between observational (i.e. playing against the build is question) and watching a video on youtube. You and baba may be talking about different things in that sense (him youtube and you fighting in spvp matches).
There aren’t that many videos of condi P/D out there. You can’t say much from a relative lack of evidence.
If observational learning is esoteric to you, I absolutely want to talk about it because this may be a huge part of why you’re currently unable to form a more accurate perception about the strengths and currently more numerous weaknesses of condi thief builds. Babazhook thinks I’m talking about highlight videos on YouTube when I’m mentioning streams. If he had watched streams before, he would know they’re continuous videos of game-play featuring everything from highs, lows, and the many minutes spent waiting for queues between sPvP games.
We can learn about the effectiveness of something through being on the receiving end of it and through watching others attempt to address a problem. How do I know a bunker ele is hard to kill without ever having played one? How do I know precision strike hurts without ever having hit someone with a precision strike in sPvP myself? You guys are seriously devaluing what can be learned from other people. Some of it’s observational learning, some of it is experience from being on the receiving end of a build, and some of it is simple intuition based on experience
Babazhook, why am I being told I need to play condi thief builds to determine effectiveness when you clearly haven’t played sPvP at the level of play I’ve been talking about? You want me to play more condi builds? Cool. I want you to get high on that leaderboard playing entirely condi thief builds. I want you to speak about sPvP from experience!
I think you can learn from observation. I was merely pointing out the difference between what you and baba were talking about and that it was derailing the actual discussion of effective pvp builds.
Can we talk about what I posted about D/D condi in higher level pvp and the limitations that presents? That seems more on topic and actually in agreement with you somewhat.
I have no interest in playing Pvp and threads like this , where a person demands others that do not PvP his way uninstall the game are one of the reasons why.
It has lead to that mindset which I consider regimented and closed just as the game play is as evidenced by all of the peoples wanting more diverse builds.
It has lead to entire threads with people referring to those persons new to PvP as losers and with people qq’ing teamates in game and even going afk deliberately if the team not to their liking. This toxic atmosphere is not my idea of fun
I speak to this issue even though I do not PvP because it was posted in the thief forum and is a thief issue that extends across all game modes.
If you wish to talk about thief only in PvP the topic should be in the their forum and even were it there I would have the same issues with a post that suggested people wanting to play anything other then what is approved should just uninstall.
If you want to enhance that game mode and make it better you should be encouraging diversity rather than you must win at all costs.
Saerni and others like him that play the non approved builds and seem to do well by them should be applauded rather then ridiculed and yes “just uninstall” is ridicule.
I am interested as to how they do in PvP with these builds because much of the gameplay does in fact translate over to other modes.
I am interested as towhether recent changes to P\d help or hinder and if a bit more needed. I would very much like to hear more on the changes to s\d as well.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
I think you can learn from observation. I was merely pointing out the difference between what you and baba were talking about and that it was derailing the actual discussion of effective pvp builds.
Can we talk about what I posted about D/D condi in higher level pvp and the limitations that presents? That seems more on topic and actually in agreement with you somewhat.
Sure. The condi builds you’re describing as having finesse and as being more effective than D/D evade spam are generally outperformed by power builds. This is mainly because power damage works faster than condi damage and because thief power skills currently have much higher DPS than our condi skills. This is incredibly important because when one +1 occurs faster, so does the next one, the one after that, and so on.
All condi DPS is lower than power DPS. That isn’t really an argument against thief condi in general because it is true for the entire game. Damage over time has value and creates constant pressure.
This also means I can burst a middle hp engi down and have the damage continue even through the invulnerable mini engi they use to avoid dying. This means I can actually kill some builds with condi faster/more reliably than power can.
Also, at a high rate of speed (i.e. small durations) a difference in speed is negligible. Take a 20% cool down reduction on a skill with a 10 seconds base (8 seconds, saving 2 seconds) and the same on a 50 second cool down (40 seconds, saving 10 seconds). The more marginal the advantage the less it matters in most cases.
I have no interest in playing Pvp and threads like this , where a person demands others that do not PvP his way uninstall the game are one of the reasons why.
I think the demand for condi thieves to uninstall was made more out of anger than anything. I don’t think he literally wants people to uninstall but instead switch their builds. Telling people to uninstall is just a way of doing this while expressing more of one’s frustration. Maybe Husky can touch on his motivations in more depth.
sPvP is more regimented – especially compared to WvW. It’s interesting because that’s probably a big part of society where greater difficulty and competitiveness results in more strictness about what works. The new sPvP system has made it even more competitive too now with having exact rankings for the top players.
I have no interest in playing Pvp and threads like this , where a person demands others that do not PvP his way uninstall the game are one of the reasons why.
I think the demand for condi thieves to uninstall was made more out of anger than anything. I don’t think he literally wants people to uninstall but instead switch their builds. Telling people to uninstall is just a way of doing this while expressing more of one’s frustration. Maybe Husky can touch on his motivations in more depth.
sPvP is more regimented – especially compared to WvW. It’s interesting because that’s probably a big part of society where greater difficulty and competitiveness results in more strictness about what works. The new sPvP system has made it even more competitive too now with having exact rankings for the top players.
And do you not see an inherent contradiction in your point of view?
Pvp can only get healthier if there a more diverse set of weapons and builds used yet those that claim to favor PvP over other forms seem to be acting to discourage that directly.
This is hard to get one’s head around. It very much like those people in WvW that complain about the imbalance in server populations even as they bounce around server to server so as to get on the one with the largest population.
As an aside, when I see people raging in teamchat telling people to quit the game I report them.
Toxic is toxic.
All condi DPS is lower than power DPS. That isn’t really an argument against thief condi in general because it is true for the entire game. Damage over time has value and creates constant pressure.
This also means I can burst a middle hp engi down and have the damage continue even through the invulnerable mini engi they use to avoid dying. This means I can actually kill some builds with condi faster/more reliably than power can.
Also, at a high rate of speed (i.e. small durations) a difference in speed is negligible. Take a 20% cool down reduction on a skill with a 10 seconds base (8 seconds, saving 2 seconds) and the same on a 50 second cool down (40 seconds, saving 10 seconds). The more marginal the advantage the less it matters in most cases.
I guess that’s where we’re going to inevitably agree to disagree or argue endlessly. Those disadvantages add up – even the marginal ones. Those marginal advantages win fights and even games. Advantages for condi are there but currently, their disadvantages are greater, such as by the slowed killing speed and as I’ve mentioned before but not specifically to you, a lack of cleave. Can you believe it’s possible power are typically better (even if only by a little)? If not, I have nothing more of use I can offer.
I have no interest in playing Pvp and threads like this , where a person demands others that do not PvP his way uninstall the game are one of the reasons why.
I think the demand for condi thieves to uninstall was made more out of anger than anything. I don’t think he literally wants people to uninstall but instead switch their builds. Telling people to uninstall is just a way of doing this while expressing more of one’s frustration. Maybe Husky can touch on his motivations in more depth.
sPvP is more regimented – especially compared to WvW. It’s interesting because that’s probably a big part of society where greater difficulty and competitiveness results in more strictness about what works. The new sPvP system has made it even more competitive too now with having exact rankings for the top players.
And do you not see an inherent contradiction in your point of view?
Pvp can only get healthier if there a more diverse set of weapons and builds used yet those that claim to favor PvP over other forms seem to be acting to discourage that directly.
This is hard to get one’s head around. It very much like those people in WvW that complain about the imbalance in server populations even as they bounce around server to server so as to get on the one with the largest population.
Diversity in builds isn’t the only form of diversity though. Diversity can occur from the development of new strategies and tactics despite playing similar or even the exact same builds. Sure, the strictness over what works can limit creativity with builds but it also makes it easier to focus on how to outplay players. A main purpose for diversity of options is for us to show off our creativity. Even within the strictness of ranked sPvP, there’s numerous ways to attempt to be creative.
I think there are marginal situations in which builds or types of builds are more or less effective. I know that is a fairly generic statement but I think it can be readily applied to a few cases.
One is the invulnerable warrior or engineer. A condi burst can overcome the sustain that invulnerability offers. As I mentioned, it may be faster to kill with condi than power for this reason (the sustained condi DPS outdoes the power DPS).
Another situation is more psychological. A person is taking a lot of condi damage and has confusion. They see another person start to rapid fire them. They know they need to block and face a dilemma. Do they use a skill to block the damage and take confusion damage? Or do they eat the rapid fire? It becomes a lose-lose where the choices they have become less meaningful and more paralyzing.
And I don’t necessarily disagree that condi thief could use a buff to be made more accessible to more people and more competitive. I would disagree that, given the impact player experience with a build has on performance, marginal differences between condi and power make condi always a wrong choice regardless of weapon set. As I mentioned, D/D may have serious design level limitations in high level play. But D/D isn’t, imo, the optimal choice for condi anyways, so I raise the alternative choices to say “condi can be useful and impactful.”
But over the course of many games and against better players, such those among the top 100-150 in ranked sPvP, can condi be as useful and as impacting as certain power builds? That’s where I’m saying condi fails.
Maybe but that is an issue for the balance team not your average player who won’t be close to rank 100.
I think there are marginal situations in which builds or types of builds are more or less effective. I know that is a fairly generic statement but I think it can be readily applied to a few cases.
One is the invulnerable warrior or engineer. A condi burst can overcome the sustain that invulnerability offers. As I mentioned, it may be faster to kill with condi than power for this reason (the sustained condi DPS outdoes the power DPS).
Another situation is more psychological. A person is taking a lot of condi damage and has confusion. They see another person start to rapid fire them. They know they need to block and face a dilemma. Do they use a skill to block the damage and take confusion damage? Or do they eat the rapid fire? It becomes a lose-lose where the choices they have become less meaningful and more paralyzing.
And I don’t necessarily disagree that condi thief could use a buff to be made more accessible to more people and more competitive. I would disagree that, given the impact player experience with a build has on performance, marginal differences between condi and power make condi always a wrong choice regardless of weapon set. As I mentioned, D/D may have serious design level limitations in high level play. But D/D isn’t, imo, the optimal choice for condi anyways, so I raise the alternative choices to say “condi can be useful and impactful.”
Yeah this is true about condi, it does perform better against certain builds. Guardian not running contemplation of purity will eventually fall to a sustained condi build. Power thief will fall to well-timed condi bursts. Power rev will beven more easily fall to condi thief than power thief, but we already have the advantage there. And so on. There’s a few 1v1s where a condi thief shines no doubt. The problem is that a condi mesmer will pretty much always be a more well-rounded choice for 1v1s in general, and also carries port. Condi thief kills people slower than power thief, though perhaps more reliably. Yet again though, we’re discussing ranked sPvP as indicated in the threads’s title. Condi thief just does not fulfil a role better than the other options available to the player, this is what I’ve been saying the whole time. It’s not useless, but at the moment it is clearly undertuned for the game mode.
(edited by Huskyboy.1053)
My Condi thief wreks all builds i play well. Even 3v1. (not that its a good idea to get into a 3v1. its not) I think only warrior and DH hold’s their own long enough to be a problem (IE lasting until help arrives) but noth of those are already problems for Thieves in general.
^ Not to mention what a condi can do to the other teams power based decapper. . .
Condi Thief is not so great in SPvP most of the time, but people have the right to play what they want. Blame ArenaNet for years of refusing to give Thief more than one viable build at a time.
Here’s an example of why D/D condi specifically is so useless, it fails against even builds without condi clear. Go to 3:49:10 to see Phantaram win his 1v1.
(edited by Huskyboy.1053)
That link isn’t working for me.
That link isn’t working for me.
I just changed it from the m.twitch.tv link to a www.twitch.tv link. See if it works now, it works for me.
For some reason I’m not seeing the video you want me to when I click on the link. No D/D condi anywhere in sight. What date was it recorded?