(edited by Zero Day.2594)
Daredevil isn’t about overuse of stealth. the fact that people feel its required is the problem. You can easily run a build not reliant on stealth and still do just fine.
Unless you’re talking about PvE… no, just no. People feel stealth is “required” because Thief has the lowest durability in PvP by a mile. Without at least a little stealth to reposition, you—the squishy Thief—will be the first target in any larger teamfight. That’s unless you’re SB #5’ing around the map and decapping, in which case… you’re not really surviving in COMBAT without stealth, are you?
Whether the new stuff can change that up remains to be seen. A lot of it was too unpolished or buggy to test properly right now (clunky dodges that count as skills and can apply confusion, utility skills that cost initiative, etc.) So not sure where you’re getting evidence of this bold new playstyle we’re all somehow missing. Does it involve the Staff? Please say it involves the Staff, I haven’t had a good laugh in a while 
Daredevil isn’t about overuse of stealth. the fact that people feel its required is the problem. You can easily run a build not reliant on stealth and still do just fine.
Unless you’re talking about PvE… no, just no. People feel stealth is “required” because Thief has the lowest durability in PvP by a mile. Without at least a little stealth to reposition, you—the squishy Thief—will be the first target in any larger teamfight. That’s unless you’re SB #5’ing around the map and decapping, in which case… you’re not really surviving in COMBAT without stealth, are you?
Whether the new stuff can change that up remains to be seen. A lot of it was too unpolished or buggy to test properly right now (clunky dodges that count as skills and can apply confusion, utility skills that cost initiative, etc.) So not sure where you’re getting evidence of this bold new playstyle we’re all somehow missing. Does it involve the Staff? Please say it involves the Staff, I haven’t had a good laugh in a while
the new playstyle is not staff. It is not stealth. It is staying in combat and putting out damage with ones dodges. It a style that relies on putting on more pressure that is ongoing rather then hit stealth and reset tactics of old. It requires a bit of work yet but it is promising. I did create a number of builds using DD and made the commitment of doing little stealth. Even in battles I was outnumbered I did resort to stealth. I did pretty good using the new traits and look forward to honing those abilities as they are refined.
Now there was some nasty surprises as in the new builds from the other classes I came against but I will have to experience those more to see just what makes them tick.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Daredevil isn’t about overuse of stealth. the fact that people feel its required is the problem. You can easily run a build not reliant on stealth and still do just fine.
Unless you’re talking about PvE… no, just no. People feel stealth is “required” because Thief has the lowest durability in PvP by a mile. Without at least a little stealth to reposition, you—the squishy Thief—will be the first target in any larger teamfight. That’s unless you’re SB #5’ing around the map and decapping, in which case… you’re not really surviving in COMBAT without stealth, are you?
Whether the new stuff can change that up remains to be seen. A lot of it was too unpolished or buggy to test properly right now (clunky dodges that count as skills and can apply confusion, utility skills that cost initiative, etc.) So not sure where you’re getting evidence of this bold new playstyle we’re all somehow missing. Does it involve the Staff? Please say it involves the Staff, I haven’t had a good laugh in a while
I didn’t once say new playstyle, i said different.
Think back a few months to when sword / dagger was dominate.
You are actually fairly durable and able to self sustain via dodging appropriately.
Here’s another angle to see this issue from: If a ranger or another class that has a dangerous channel skill starts attacking for you just before you stealth, you can’t dodge any of it, or you’ll give up your stealth and likely take even more damage. Maybe you dropped an emergency Shadow Refuge to escape from a zerg, the Shadow Refuge may finish, but you can’t dodge out of the way or dodge in the Shadow Refuge because you’ll get revealed and die. I’m sorry. I can’t see any defense for a reveal on evade. Condition thieves can be scary, but this skill is a total hindrance to them.
It’s only a hindrance if you have to use stealth as a crutch.
@ the other dude. I’m not out to insult your use of Stealth, however the common misconception with a bunch of people is stealth is required to be good at thief and that is flat out wrong and leads to people trying to use it in every situation….see the above quote as to the wrong time to use it.
Condi Daredevil isn’t a build that absolutely relies on stealth like previous thief builds do. See the current PvP / WvW state of D/P SA/Trick/CS or DA.
I wouldn’t say that I need stealth to function. I usually play Necro with no special teleports, stealth, or evades. The problem isn’t that it hurts people who depend on stealth, but that it punishes the player for needing to evade in stealth, which can be necessary sometimes. There’s little reason to run it right now because it is more punishing than it is rewarding.
Exactly I don’t see the synergy, just because it has condition damage doesn’t mean whatever and ballerina thieves are not a real thing even if Death Blossom’s animation was reworked unless of course we are talking PvE then yes keep it like that but since they balanced around PvP this trait will be a hindrance. Will it be more annoying then Last Refuge as a minor?? We’ll see..
He already killed p/d in PvP he won’t have to try for those who believe ballerina thieves will succeed.
Edit: Ballerina thieves in WvW?? Haha funny jokes.
(edited by Sagat.3285)
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Again this would be a detriment to a condition build. Contrary to claims made here that it harms condition builds I used one throughout beta.
1>SOM procs on dodge and provides continous healing.
2>The trait doing damage was very useful against Mesmers allowing me to kill clones as I dodged.
These two factors are far more useful to a condition build than is those few times one needs to dodge while stealthed.
I would also point out that I have often chased down thieves using uncatchable while stealthed. It gives away your position.
Again bad idea.
SoM is trash there is no excuse to use it unless you’re in PvE where anything works. If “he who knows his name” didn’t put CiS next to S.Rej dealing with mesmer wouldn’t be so harsh it’s not like thief lacks close cleave. How is the placement of Uncatchable related to it? You throw the dagger but they can’t target you simple, you either evaded like a good player or trolled and wasted your endurance.
Was the build you tried a ballerina thief?
Again this would be a detriment to a condition build. Contrary to claims made here that it harms condition builds I used one throughout beta.
1>SOM procs on dodge and provides continous healing.
2>The trait doing damage was very useful against Mesmers allowing me to kill clones as I dodged.
These two factors are far more useful to a condition build than is those few times one needs to dodge while stealthed.
I would also point out that I have often chased down thieves using uncatchable while stealthed. It gives away your position.
Again bad idea.
SoM is trash there is no excuse to use it unless you’re in PvE where anything works
Was the build you tried a ballerina thief?
I really prefer not to cleave clones so as to avoid the on kill conditions that occur. The range in Impaling lotus is greater then any cleave and as I dodge through them the evade from the dodge helps to avoid on kill effects. 600 radius is further than a cleave.
As to SOM being trash there are more game modes than PvP. SOM works fine in Wvw and many thieves use it. Some people prefer to try things for themselves rather then just read some “expert” proclaim what is trash and what is not trash. I kind of liked doing damage when I dodged, evading damage when I dodged and healing damage when I dodged all at once. It worked quite well for me and especailly when there more than one enemy and I am not stealthing.
Play YOUR build. Ridicule any that do not play your build if that makes you feel better but please do not presume to tell me what works and does not work.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Again this would be a detriment to a condition build. Contrary to claims made here that it harms condition builds I used one throughout beta.
1>SOM procs on dodge and provides continous healing.
2>The trait doing damage was very useful against Mesmers allowing me to kill clones as I dodged.
These two factors are far more useful to a condition build than is those few times one needs to dodge while stealthed.
I would also point out that I have often chased down thieves using uncatchable while stealthed. It gives away your position.
Again bad idea.
SoM is trash there is no excuse to use it unless you’re in PvE where anything works
Was the build you tried a ballerina thief?
I really prefer not to cleave clones so as to avoid the on kill conditions that occur. The range in Impaling lotus is greater then any cleave and as I dodge through them the evade from the dodge helps to avoid on kill effects. 600 radius is further than a cleave.
As to SOM being trash there are more game modes than PvP. SOM works fine in Wvw and many thieves use it. Some people prefer to try things for themselves rather then just read some “expert” proclaim what is trash and what is not trash. I kind of liked doing damage when I dodged, evading damage when I dodged and healing damage when I dodged all at once. It worked quite well for me and especailly when there more than one enemy and I am not stealthing.
Play YOUR build. Ridicule any that do not play your build if that makes you feel better but please do not presume to tell me what works and does not work.
There is no on kill traits for mesmer clones they’ve all been removed. How can you say you don’t want to kill them but used killing them as a excuse for the damage portion?? Show me those many thieves that use SoM just do it. I have nothing wrong with theorycrafting and playing your own way but please don’t tell me SoM is useful especially in WvW at least PvE but not WvW it’s PvP on steroids.
This trait doesn’t erase the fact that Death Blossom is still the same unreliable evading dual skill that’s only worth using in PvE where anything works. I’m not being rude I’m giving realistic criticism. Ballerina thief is not a real thing current condition thief is hiding in WvW behind food,runes and dire, it uses p/d and that trait will be an hindrance.
Again no rudeness just pure facts.
Again this would be a detriment to a condition build. Contrary to claims made here that it harms condition builds I used one throughout beta.
1>SOM procs on dodge and provides continous healing.
2>The trait doing damage was very useful against Mesmers allowing me to kill clones as I dodged.
These two factors are far more useful to a condition build than is those few times one needs to dodge while stealthed.
I would also point out that I have often chased down thieves using uncatchable while stealthed. It gives away your position.
Again bad idea.
SoM is trash there is no excuse to use it unless you’re in PvE where anything works
Was the build you tried a ballerina thief?
I really prefer not to cleave clones so as to avoid the on kill conditions that occur. The range in Impaling lotus is greater then any cleave and as I dodge through them the evade from the dodge helps to avoid on kill effects. 600 radius is further than a cleave.
As to SOM being trash there are more game modes than PvP. SOM works fine in Wvw and many thieves use it. Some people prefer to try things for themselves rather then just read some “expert” proclaim what is trash and what is not trash. I kind of liked doing damage when I dodged, evading damage when I dodged and healing damage when I dodged all at once. It worked quite well for me and especailly when there more than one enemy and I am not stealthing.
Play YOUR build. Ridicule any that do not play your build if that makes you feel better but please do not presume to tell me what works and does not work.
There is no on kill traits for mesmer clones they’ve all been removed. How can you say you don’t want to kill them but used killing them as a excuse for the damage portion?? Show me those many thieves that use SoM just do it. I have nothing wrong with theorycrafting and playing your own way but please don’t tell me SoM is useful especially in WvW at least PvE but not WvW it’s PvP on steroids.
This trait doesn’t erase the fact that Death Blossom is still the same unreliable evading dual skill that’s only worth using in PvE where anything works. I’m not being rude I’m giving realistic criticism. Ballerina thief is not a real thing current condition thief is hiding in WvW behind food,runes and dire, it uses p/d and that trait will be an hindrance.
Again no rudeness just pure facts.
Firstly speaking about the beta test and impaling lotus in particular.
To your clones. When I fight a mesmer and am chasing him he will send clones on me and berserker phantasm. If I dodge the zerker attack and am able to at the same time kill his clones, then i am delaying his ability to get a shatter on. I have fought a lot of mesmers in WvW and the daredevil build using Impaling lotus worked very well.
I do not use dire.. I do not need condition duration food in a d/d build . Sometimes I use it and sometimes I do not. Since p/d bleeds are so low baseline it all but required on those builds. When the build is official I might very well just use the Might on Dodge food. My base bleeds with dagger dagger will still be higher then p/d bleeds using 100 percent duration foods.
So two points you are wrong on. Hiding behind dire…Hiding behind food.
Now to WvW. i got over 6000 hours in now and spend 90 percent of time in WvW. Most of that time on Thieves even though I have every profession to 80. I do not have to compare myself against how others play their thief. I have played virtually every iteration of Thief against all manner of opponents from good to bad and know which builds work best for me.
If i try build A and use it in WvW and then try build B and use it in WvW and over the course of very many nights have much better success with B then I know what works for me and what does not. I do not pay any heed to any person saying “this build will not work”
To SOM. In the current build (non beta) I use it about 30 percent of the time. Withdraw is a better heal in my build based on my tests night to night. That said depending on the environment SOM becomes better. I know this because I have tested this and I know what helps me live longer and win fights more often. If I am fighting one or two enemy players withdraw works much better. If I am fighting in a camp and an enemy player shows up to defend it, I am way better off with SOM. If I am fighting on point in a keep or tower where the champion sits be it defending the same against a number of players or attacking I am btter off with SOM.
Now in the BETA i tested SOM and withdraw as well and with the Impaling lotus trait found SOM worked better. Again I can test one of my builds against the other and had great success with SOM.
So on SOM you are wrong as well.
Your problem is assuming that just because a given build did not work for you it can not work for anyone else.
to DD and using deathblossom. I have played p/d condition. I have played p/p condition. I have player all manner of power builds and still do. I know the issue with evade on the DB skill but the this still works in a condition build when you are built to deal with those issues. Added to that it became even better in beta simply because of the nature of Impaling lotus.
From the perspective of the enemy an Impaling lotus looked very much like a DB. At the same time Impaling lotus has a longer evade. I found if I properly timed my DBS and Dodges I could mitigate a lot of damage will still inflicting my own. I also found that even with that lower evade time on DB (which should be upped) I was getting evades with it which triggered the other on evade traits. P/d does not have on evade skill in the weapon set. S/d does but is not very suitable for conditions. SB does but d/d will inflict way more bleeds and in fact poisons then will the SB if used properly.
So I suggest you wrong on D/d as well.
Do not confuse an opinion with a fact. Do not confuse a personal choice with a fact. Again you have the builds you like and that work for you. use them.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
This will drag forever when this DD is released I’ll be waiting for the ballerina thieves and their effectiveness. I said that before but they don’t balance around neither PvE or WvW.
This will drag forever when this DD is released I’ll be waiting for the ballerina thieves and their effectiveness
Well just go on playing your d/p. It seems it the only build some can get to work.
It is IMMATERIAL what they balance skills around. All that is material is what works where. D/d works fine in WvW and if do not PvP i really do not care what it does there.
You cant hold a point in PvP by stealthing. It does not mean stealth useless everywhere else.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
This will drag forever when this DD is released I’ll be waiting for the ballerina thieves and their effectiveness
Well just go on playing your d/p. It seems it the only build some can get to work.
It is IMMATERIAL what they balance skills around. All that is material is what works where. D/d works fine in WvW and if do not PvP i really do not care what it does there.
You cant hold a point in PvP by stealthing. It does not mean stealth useless everywhere else.
Why do you assume I play d/p?? I mainly play PvP on necro now, my 2 thieves are pretty much focused on WvW which means I can make anything “work” with them. About stealth in conquest it doesn’t matter you still get in stealth anyway, to position,rez or disengage. That argument only worked because you lost too much choosing it on power spec pre patch if that’s “he who knows his name” excuse for nerfing SA maybe he forgot rest of the classes can also use 3 lines and he directly hit p/d and d/d while barely affecting d/p then he tries to smiles with DD and act like nothing happened.
You not caring about PvP is all I needed to hear. The results and efficiency of ballerina thieves(in WvW for you) will have the last laugh I’m done trying.
This will drag forever when this DD is released I’ll be waiting for the ballerina thieves and their effectiveness
Well just go on playing your d/p. It seems it the only build some can get to work.
It is IMMATERIAL what they balance skills around. All that is material is what works where. D/d works fine in WvW and if do not PvP i really do not care what it does there.
You cant hold a point in PvP by stealthing. It does not mean stealth useless everywhere else.
Why do you assume I play d/p?? I mainly play PvP on necro now, my 2 thieves are pretty much focused on WvW which means I can make anything “work” with them. About stealth in conquest it doesn’t matter you still get in stealth anyway, to position,rez or disengage. That argument only worked because you lost too much choosing it on power spec pre patch if that’s “he who knows his name” excuse for nerfing SA maybe he forgot rest of the classes can also use 3 lines and he directly hit p/d and d/d while barely affecting d/p then he tries to smiles with DD and act like nothing happened.
You not caring about PvP is all I needed to hear. The results and efficiency of ballerina thieves(in WvW for you) will have the last laugh I’m done trying.
Again do what works for YOU. When those ballerina thieves start killing you do not be TOO embaraased. it just a game.
See the loss of stealth did not bother me as much as some others as i never was over reliant on it.