Guild Wars 2

I’ve been testing my low level thief in the mists today and i stumbled on this trait…which really interested me.
I’ve done some testing and research, it turns out the bonus damage is almost never obtain-able as stolen items aren’t considered bundles and the cooldown reset is too much of a gamble unless running signet of malice, one deception, one trap, one trick and the basilisk venom. And we all know traps aren’t that useful.

So my question is: in over one year, has this trait been fixed? I’ve seen Anet answered on some discussions about it.

If it hasn’t (which i assume it’s still outdated) what could be done to fix the trait?

In my opinion, the trait could reset one random healing+utility/utility/ skill out of those equipped, not necessarily on cooldown. ( as if it only resetted abilities on cooldown, thieves could achieve 20 second cooldown shadow refuge)

As for the bonus part, if kept, it could either increase all damage done while holding a stolen ability or it could allow you to steal two items instead of one (when using the first the second pops instead of the steal)…or just a stolen item increased effectiveness (increases boons/conditions provided by stolen items along with the damage).

I’d sincerely love to use this trait, but at the moment it’s absolutely broken. :s

Swap places with residual venom, (make improvisation GM), change it to guartuntee 1 utility skill type on cooldown will recharge (which would cross over to healing and elite skills.

Reason I say it should move up to GM is because its pretty kitten powerful getting a 2nd cast especially if you run all 1 skill type like deception or venoms. Residual venom is also pretty weak :/

NinjaEd.3946:

Swap places with residual venom, (make improvisation GM), change it to guartuntee 1 utility skill type on cooldown will recharge (which would cross over to healing and elite skills.

Reason I say it should move up to GM is because its pretty kitten powerful getting a 2nd cast especially if you run all 1 skill type like deception or venoms. Residual venom is also pretty weak :/

Overpowered, that’d allow a full deception thief (aka: everybody nowdays) to reset all his/her cooldowns every 20 seconds.
That alone with shadow refuge is almost perma stealth.
Plus it’d not be improvisation anymore if you know what you’ll reset!

ButterOfDeath.2873:

NinjaEd.3946:

Swap places with residual venom, (make improvisation GM), change it to guartuntee 1 utility skill type on cooldown will recharge (which would cross over to healing and elite skills.

Reason I say it should move up to GM is because its pretty kitten powerful getting a 2nd cast especially if you run all 1 skill type like deception or venoms. Residual venom is also pretty weak :/

Overpowered, that’d allow a full deception thief (aka: everybody nowdays) to reset all his/her cooldowns every 20 seconds.
That alone with shadow refuge is almost perma stealth.
Plus it’d not be improvisation anymore if you know what you’ll reset!

Simple fix, ICD 90 seconds. Also swap the % dmg bonus with bundle to something relating to the stolen item, like movement speed or that 5% while you have a stolen item. This way the 2nd part effects you the entire time and the OP skill recharge is not used so quickly.

NinjaEd.3946:

ButterOfDeath.2873:

NinjaEd.3946:

Swap places with residual venom, (make improvisation GM), change it to guartuntee 1 utility skill type on cooldown will recharge (which would cross over to healing and elite skills.

Reason I say it should move up to GM is because its pretty kitten powerful getting a 2nd cast especially if you run all 1 skill type like deception or venoms. Residual venom is also pretty weak :/

Overpowered, that’d allow a full deception thief (aka: everybody nowdays) to reset all his/her cooldowns every 20 seconds.
That alone with shadow refuge is almost perma stealth.
Plus it’d not be improvisation anymore if you know what you’ll reset!

Simple fix, ICD 90 seconds. Also swap the % dmg bonus with bundle to something relating to the stolen item, like movement speed or that 5% while you have a stolen item. This way the 2nd part effects you the entire time and the OP skill recharge is not used so quickly.

I’d rather prefer a less reliable but quicker cooldown reset rather than a long cooldown powerful reset.

Additionally, resetting one ability is an effect that resembles greatly the name “improvisation” as you have to deal with what you get.
However, even if once in a while, knowing what you will recharge also defeats the purpose of the trait itself.

As for the passive boost, my opinion is that the suggested fix would already be enough to be honest.
Otherwise, it could be worthy to actually think about a more active kind of buff rather than a passive one.
For example, activating stolen skills could make you evade for half a second.
Or your next attack causes either cripple, chill or a short duration daze.
Or you could cure a random damaging condition, as the thief has little condition removal.
Heck, you could even shadowstep to a nearby spot within’ 400 radius either after a little delay or when being hit.

Something not necessarily useful but always not negative would be the perfect effect.

The randomness of it pretty much precludes the need for nerfing it. Sure, you could load up on venoms, but you only have a 1 in 4 chance of having the steal reset the venoms. Sure it’s strong, but the randomness helps minimize.
Or you could go with a trick, a deception, and a signet, and have improvisation only reset one of them, with a 1 in 4 chance it won’t reset any of them. Again, the randomness keeps it being from that OP.

Besides, pretty much no one uses it for the skill reset, they use it for the 10% bonus on FGS or Ice Bow.

Dakota.4591:

The randomness of it pretty much precludes the need for nerfing it. Sure, you could load up on venoms, but you only have a 1 in 4 chance of having the steal reset the venoms. Sure it’s strong, but the randomness helps minimize.
Or you could go with a trick, a deception, and a signet, and have improvisation only reset one of them, with a 1 in 4 chance it won’t reset any of them. Again, the randomness keeps it being from that OP.

Besides, pretty much no one uses it for the skill reset, they use it for the 10% bonus on FGS or Ice Bow.

I’m indeed not asking for a nerf, but for a rework.
Nobody will ever run such a silly combination of abilities just to make the reset work, so instead let’s just make it reset one random utility skill or the healing skill.
Which means, it always resets one skill, but it always does regardless of your build.

And the passive is indeed useless as you need somebody to provide a bundle.

As much as I’d like to see the dmg bonus apply on stolen items, the trait is pretty good even without it. For me, it’s like something I don’t notice when it doesn’t proc and notice it when it saves me from certain death. And somehow I like the rng side of it too.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

As much as I’d like to see the dmg bonus apply on stolen items, the trait is pretty good even without it. For me, it’s like something I don’t notice when it doesn’t proc and notice it when it saves me from certain death. And somehow I like the rng side of it too.

A thief enjoying an RNG factor in their build? Who are you?!!

Seriously, how can anyone enjoy the random effect this trait produces? Thief needs quick decisions to pull of their bursts and stay alive, having a 1 in 5 chance to recharge your skill(s) is just awful. There needs to be a purpose to this trait other than “ooh, piece of candy”.

Maybe instead of skill type recharged on steal it just recharged 1 utility skill that is currently on cooldown, meaning if you only had 1 on cooldown you could use it again to atleast give some decision making back in the thief’s hands. There’s your mix of rng and choice in one package.

I still think it would require a change to the “bundle damage” because why on earth did they give bundle damage to a class that has zero bundles. Spec for that ele to hopefully drop you a conjure? No, it shouldn’t be so ridiculous like back fighting. I don’t know any other trait so out of place where it literally has nothing to do with the profession. Give some bonus depending on the type of stolen item you hold onto like

-Defensive items (consume ecto, feathers, healing spring) give you 10% movement speed

-Offensive items (whirling axe, bone crack, rifle, throw X, etc) give you 5% bonus damage.

Naturally using the item removes the effect or not having an item means no effect.

A suggestion could be that stealing would decrease one of your utility skills that is on CD by 10 seconds and an additional 10 seconds per additional utility skill you have on CD. So if all of your utilities are on CD and you steal one of the will be recharged while only have 1 utility on CD will not fully recharge it. It could allow thieves to use steal in more creative ways.

The trait isn’t broken. “Bundles” refer to things such as Ice Bow, Fiery Greatsword, Lightning Hammer, etc. It works as intended.

Azawrath.7304:

A suggestion could be that stealing would decrease one of your utility skills that is on CD by 10 seconds and an additional 10 seconds per additional utility skill you have on CD. So if all of your utilities are on CD and you steal one of the will be recharged while only have 1 utility on CD will not fully recharge it. It could allow thieves to use steal in more creative ways.

I like the idea,but i think it’d be too good.
At the moment, thieves use utilities as a way to save their patootie whenever they need, having the skill reducing the cooldown of your most needed utility by 10 seconds (which is ALOT) every 20 seconds is too much…you could almost double cast scorpion wire or destroying shadowstep’s cooldown against condition opponents.
In that case, it’d be no more improvisation but preparation instead.
In case you ment the trait would reset a random utility not just the cooldown ones, then you aren’t guaranteed a recharge even when all skills are used, which is bad.

NinjaEd.3946:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

As much as I’d like to see the dmg bonus apply on stolen items, the trait is pretty good even without it. For me, it’s like something I don’t notice when it doesn’t proc and notice it when it saves me from certain death. And somehow I like the rng side of it too.

A thief enjoying an RNG factor in their build? Who are you?!!

Seriously, how can anyone enjoy the random effect this trait produces? Thief needs quick decisions to pull of their bursts and stay alive, having a 1 in 5 chance to recharge your skill(s) is just awful. There needs to be a purpose to this trait other than “ooh, piece of candy”.

Maybe instead of skill type recharged on steal it just recharged 1 utility skill that is currently on cooldown, meaning if you only had 1 on cooldown you could use it again to atleast give some decision making back in the thief’s hands. There’s your mix of rng and choice in one package.

I still think it would require a change to the “bundle damage” because why on earth did they give bundle damage to a class that has zero bundles. Spec for that ele to hopefully drop you a conjure? No, it shouldn’t be so ridiculous like back fighting. I don’t know any other trait so out of place where it literally has nothing to do with the profession. Give some bonus depending on the type of stolen item you hold onto like

-Defensive items (consume ecto, feathers, healing spring) give you 10% movement speed

-Offensive items (whirling axe, bone crack, rifle, throw X, etc) give you 5% bonus damage.

Naturally using the item removes the effect or not having an item means no effect.

Resetting one ability already on cooldown would be extremely overpowered.
Throw in a shadow refuge, steal, throw another one, repeat for perma stealth.
Plus that’d be preparation not improvisation.

The trait isn’t broken. “Bundles” refer to things such as Ice Bow, Fiery Greatsword, Lightning Hammer, etc. It works as intended.

I never said it’s broken, i just said it’s completely useless for a thief as the class has no bundles by itself.
Also, on a much earlier iteration of the game, back in alpha, the steal skill worked as a bundle (just look at the thief steal video in the class page) thus the trait is NOT working as intended anymore, it’s just terribly outdated.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

I never said it’s broken, i just said it’s completely useless for a thief as the class has no bundles by itself.
Also, on a much earlier iteration of the game, back in alpha, the steal skill worked as a bundle (just look at the thief steal video in the class page) thus the trait is NOT working as intended anymore, it’s just terribly outdated.

You don’t know what working as intended means, so I’m not going to waste my time. On a side note Improvisation is one of the strongest traits in the game.

Cheers,

Caed

Narcarsis.5739:

ButterOfDeath.2873:

I never said it’s broken, i just said it’s completely useless for a thief as the class has no bundles by itself.
Also, on a much earlier iteration of the game, back in alpha, the steal skill worked as a bundle (just look at the thief steal video in the class page) thus the trait is NOT working as intended anymore, it’s just terribly outdated.

You don’t know what working as intended means, so I’m not going to waste my time. On a side note Improvisation is one of the strongest traits in the game.

Cheers,

Caed

The trait lists a bonus damage wielding a bundle, and the damage is indeed applied. Thus it is working as intended. I never said otherwise.

Issue is, the thief alone has access to zero bundles at its current state, thus unless you’re wielding a warrior’s banner, an elementalist’s conjure or one of the few enviromental weapons, the bonus isn’t applied. As intended.

Now, a 20% chance to reset all utility cooldowns is indeed really powerful, but useless 80% of the time.
Instead, having to build around improvisation will limit what utilities, healing and elite skills you can choose while making utility-specific traits much less useful.

Plus, now that you’ve seen i know what intended means, let me iterate that in much earlier stages of the game the thief would steal a bundle, not an extra ability.
In that enviroment, the trait would’ve been just right, right now not so much.

Thus, this is why i’m proposing possible solutions to make the trait interesting and useful, rather than a really situational trait that requires certain conditions to be met.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

NinjaEd.3946:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

As much as I’d like to see the dmg bonus apply on stolen items, the trait is pretty good even without it. For me, it’s like something I don’t notice when it doesn’t proc and notice it when it saves me from certain death. And somehow I like the rng side of it too.

A thief enjoying an RNG factor in their build? Who are you?!!

Seriously, how can anyone enjoy the random effect this trait produces? Thief needs quick decisions to pull of their bursts and stay alive, having a 1 in 5 chance to recharge your skill(s) is just awful. There needs to be a purpose to this trait other than “ooh, piece of candy”.

Maybe instead of skill type recharged on steal it just recharged 1 utility skill that is currently on cooldown, meaning if you only had 1 on cooldown you could use it again to atleast give some decision making back in the thief’s hands. There’s your mix of rng and choice in one package.

I still think it would require a change to the “bundle damage” because why on earth did they give bundle damage to a class that has zero bundles. Spec for that ele to hopefully drop you a conjure? No, it shouldn’t be so ridiculous like back fighting. I don’t know any other trait so out of place where it literally has nothing to do with the profession. Give some bonus depending on the type of stolen item you hold onto like

-Defensive items (consume ecto, feathers, healing spring) give you 10% movement speed

-Offensive items (whirling axe, bone crack, rifle, throw X, etc) give you 5% bonus damage.

Naturally using the item removes the effect or not having an item means no effect.

Resetting one ability already on cooldown would be extremely overpowered.
Throw in a shadow refuge, steal, throw another one, repeat for perma stealth.
Plus that’d be preparation not improvisation.

Then again, add an ICD so that trickery spec’ed thieves cannot repeat this every 21 seconds. It ain’t hard to figure out how to balance low cooldowns. I’m well aware of the potential abuse an on demand reset button does, steal is a rather hard ability to counter on its own and giving them full control over utility cooldowns is a lot.

Also why are we still going off the definition of a trait as if logic applies in this game?
-Inspiring Battle Standard warrior trait: works on all banners, not just the elite.
-mug thief trait: where is my loot?
-furious retaliation thief trait: this is when you hit them below 50% not them hitting you, so where is the retaliation part coming from?
-hard to catch thief trait: doesn’t really make you hard to catch :/
-merciful ambush thief trait: has no relation to an ambush.

I could look for more if you’d like.

NinjaEd.3946:

ButterOfDeath.2873:

NinjaEd.3946:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

As much as I’d like to see the dmg bonus apply on stolen items, the trait is pretty good even without it. For me, it’s like something I don’t notice when it doesn’t proc and notice it when it saves me from certain death. And somehow I like the rng side of it too.

A thief enjoying an RNG factor in their build? Who are you?!!

Seriously, how can anyone enjoy the random effect this trait produces? Thief needs quick decisions to pull of their bursts and stay alive, having a 1 in 5 chance to recharge your skill(s) is just awful. There needs to be a purpose to this trait other than “ooh, piece of candy”.

Maybe instead of skill type recharged on steal it just recharged 1 utility skill that is currently on cooldown, meaning if you only had 1 on cooldown you could use it again to atleast give some decision making back in the thief’s hands. There’s your mix of rng and choice in one package.

I still think it would require a change to the “bundle damage” because why on earth did they give bundle damage to a class that has zero bundles. Spec for that ele to hopefully drop you a conjure? No, it shouldn’t be so ridiculous like back fighting. I don’t know any other trait so out of place where it literally has nothing to do with the profession. Give some bonus depending on the type of stolen item you hold onto like

-Defensive items (consume ecto, feathers, healing spring) give you 10% movement speed

-Offensive items (whirling axe, bone crack, rifle, throw X, etc) give you 5% bonus damage.

Naturally using the item removes the effect or not having an item means no effect.

Resetting one ability already on cooldown would be extremely overpowered.
Throw in a shadow refuge, steal, throw another one, repeat for perma stealth.
Plus that’d be preparation not improvisation.

Then again, add an ICD so that trickery spec’ed thieves cannot repeat this every 21 seconds. It ain’t hard to figure out how to balance low cooldowns. I’m well aware of the potential abuse an on demand reset button does, steal is a rather hard ability to counter on its own and giving them full control over utility cooldowns is a lot.

Also why are we still going off the definition of a trait as if logic applies in this game?
-Inspiring Battle Standard warrior trait: works on all banners, not just the elite.
-mug thief trait: where is my loot?
-furious retaliation thief trait: this is when you hit them below 50% not them hitting you, so where is the retaliation part coming from?
-hard to catch thief trait: doesn’t really make you hard to catch :/
-merciful ambush thief trait: has no relation to an ambush.

I could look for more if you’d like.

A banner can also be called standard, when used in battle, it’s a battle standard.
Consider every banner has the “plant standard” skill.
Health is mug’s loot
We could say the fight itself is the retaliation part.
It does but not well…harder to catch?
How would you call it if not ambush? Merciful revive? Merciful apply stealth? x)

Still, trait names don’t HAVE to make sense, but it’d be very welcome if they do.
So instead of proposing broken names/ideas combinations, they could work together no?

Also, even with a long ICD of 90 seconds, it’s too powerful to have a guaranteed reset of whichever skill you need.

To be balanced, the ability itself MUST be weak offensively, as when being offensive you have cooldowns to burst, otherwise you’re playing safer.
Imagine being double scorpion wire’d inside a zerg (scorpion wire > reset >shadowstep behind > scorpion wire) or throwing two shadow refuges at once.

Unless it’s random, no ICD can balance it IMO…plus i like the idea of having a random reset on demand rather than a more powerful one when i might not need it.

P.s. MANY thieves use steal really early when fighting, that’d be a really big downside with the trait as it’d proc the ICD. :s

NinjaEd.3946:

A thief enjoying an RNG factor in their build? Who are you?!!

Seriously, how can anyone enjoy the random effect this trait produces? Thief needs quick decisions to pull of their bursts and stay alive, having a 1 in 5 chance to recharge your skill(s) is just awful. There needs to be a purpose to this trait other than “ooh, piece of candy”.

I used to think the same untill I tried the trait. This “piece of candy” is a lot more useful to me than 5% on dagger skills or similar traits, which are just boring. Quick decision making is exactly what Improvisation allows for, since it changes thief’s possibilities right away.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Now, a 20% chance to reset all utility cooldowns is indeed really powerful, but useless 80% of the time.
Instead, having to build around improvisation will limit what utilities, healing and elite skills you can choose while making utility-specific traits much less useful.

Plus, now that you’ve seen i know what intended means, let me iterate that in much earlier stages of the game the thief would steal a bundle, not an extra ability.
In that enviroment, the trait would’ve been just right, right now not so much.

Thus, this is why i’m proposing possible solutions to make the trait interesting and useful, rather than a really situational trait that requires certain conditions to be met.

I doubt many of those who use this trait actually build around it. You don’t build around each of the traits you use either, just some of them.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

NinjaEd.3946:

A thief enjoying an RNG factor in their build? Who are you?!!

Seriously, how can anyone enjoy the random effect this trait produces? Thief needs quick decisions to pull of their bursts and stay alive, having a 1 in 5 chance to recharge your skill(s) is just awful. There needs to be a purpose to this trait other than “ooh, piece of candy”.

I used to think the same untill I tried the trait. This “piece of candy” is a lot more useful to me than 5% on dagger skills or similar traits, which are just boring. Quick decision making is exactly what Improvisation allows for, since it changes thief’s possibilities right away.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Now, a 20% chance to reset all utility cooldowns is indeed really powerful, but useless 80% of the time.
Instead, having to build around improvisation will limit what utilities, healing and elite skills you can choose while making utility-specific traits much less useful.

Plus, now that you’ve seen i know what intended means, let me iterate that in much earlier stages of the game the thief would steal a bundle, not an extra ability.
In that enviroment, the trait would’ve been just right, right now not so much.

Thus, this is why i’m proposing possible solutions to make the trait interesting and useful, rather than a really situational trait that requires certain conditions to be met.

I doubt many of those who use this trait actually build around it. You don’t build around each of the traits you use either, just some of them.

If you take illusionary persona on the mesmer, i’m surely going to play shatter.
Sure it’ll improve any build, but i’d gladly build around it.

Oh god- this trait. I hate it so much. Why give 10% damage to freaking bundles when we don’t even have access to bundles? I understand we can pick them up, but I find it really stupid that they just threw this on a thief trait.

They should let stolen items count as bundles or replace it with something that makes more sense

As far as the useful part of the trait, it’s OK I guess, but I never use it. I could see it working best with a venom build running 3-5 venoms. The reason being is that often times you open a fight with steal while your venoms are on CD. My other utilities usually aren’t on cooldown when I use my opening steal.

It’s a pve trait. A powerful one, as well.

oxtred.7658:

It’s a pve trait. A powerful one, as well.

Ok, but the passive has no synergy with any combination of thief’s own abilities, while the reset is either too unreliable or requires an unrealistic build. :/

Thief has a spammable blast finisher that’s of little to no combat application. But when combined with another class, it becomes incredibly powerful because we can stack a lot of might in short order.

As much as I would love to see this trait give a 10% damage boost on steal attacks, I’m fine with having a trait that benefits from a little synergy with other classes. I’ll run it if I’m grouped with an ele, but when not, I just don’t use it.

Dakota.4591:

Thief has a spammable blast finisher that’s of little to no combat application. But when combined with another class, it becomes incredibly powerful because we can stack a lot of might in short order.

As much as I would love to see this trait give a 10% damage boost on steal attacks, I’m fine with having a trait that benefits from a little synergy with other classes. I’ll run it if I’m grouped with an ele, but when not, I just don’t use it.

Difference is the same skill is both useful alone and can still be combo’ed with thief abilities, such as shadow refuge or smoke screen for example.
Plus i believe keeping the blast finisher increases the direct damage and saves one initiative (might be wrong about the direct damage tho, didn’t check).
However, the only way to combo the bundle bonus is with an elementalist or warrior or one of the rare enviromental weapons. On the other hand, a blast finisher can combo with every class.

Narcarsis.5739:

ButterOfDeath.2873:

I never said it’s broken, i just said it’s completely useless for a thief as the class has no bundles by itself.
Also, on a much earlier iteration of the game, back in alpha, the steal skill worked as a bundle (just look at the thief steal video in the class page) thus the trait is NOT working as intended anymore, it’s just terribly outdated.

You don’t know what working as intended means, so I’m not going to waste my time. On a side note Improvisation is one of the strongest traits in the game.

Cheers,

Caed

I’m genuinely curious – why do you feel Improvisation is one of the strongest traits in the game?

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

NinjaEd.3946:

A thief enjoying an RNG factor in their build? Who are you?!!

Seriously, how can anyone enjoy the random effect this trait produces? Thief needs quick decisions to pull of their bursts and stay alive, having a 1 in 5 chance to recharge your skill(s) is just awful. There needs to be a purpose to this trait other than “ooh, piece of candy”.

I used to think the same untill I tried the trait. This “piece of candy” is a lot more useful to me than 5% on dagger skills or similar traits, which are just boring. Quick decision making is exactly what Improvisation allows for, since it changes thief’s possibilities right away.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Now, a 20% chance to reset all utility cooldowns is indeed really powerful, but useless 80% of the time.
Instead, having to build around improvisation will limit what utilities, healing and elite skills you can choose while making utility-specific traits much less useful.

Plus, now that you’ve seen i know what intended means, let me iterate that in much earlier stages of the game the thief would steal a bundle, not an extra ability.
In that enviroment, the trait would’ve been just right, right now not so much.

Thus, this is why i’m proposing possible solutions to make the trait interesting and useful, rather than a really situational trait that requires certain conditions to be met.

I doubt many of those who use this trait actually build around it. You don’t build around each of the traits you use either, just some of them.

If you take illusionary persona on the mesmer, i’m surely going to play shatter.
Sure it’ll improve any build, but i’d gladly build around it.

Apples and oranges.

You could compare more equivalent traits but ofc that wouldn’t help your argument much.

Perhaps thieves need to speed up their decision making skills if they think Improvisation is useless due to rng.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

NinjaEd.3946:

A thief enjoying an RNG factor in their build? Who are you?!!

Seriously, how can anyone enjoy the random effect this trait produces? Thief needs quick decisions to pull of their bursts and stay alive, having a 1 in 5 chance to recharge your skill(s) is just awful. There needs to be a purpose to this trait other than “ooh, piece of candy”.

I used to think the same untill I tried the trait. This “piece of candy” is a lot more useful to me than 5% on dagger skills or similar traits, which are just boring. Quick decision making is exactly what Improvisation allows for, since it changes thief’s possibilities right away.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Now, a 20% chance to reset all utility cooldowns is indeed really powerful, but useless 80% of the time.
Instead, having to build around improvisation will limit what utilities, healing and elite skills you can choose while making utility-specific traits much less useful.

Plus, now that you’ve seen i know what intended means, let me iterate that in much earlier stages of the game the thief would steal a bundle, not an extra ability.
In that enviroment, the trait would’ve been just right, right now not so much.

Thus, this is why i’m proposing possible solutions to make the trait interesting and useful, rather than a really situational trait that requires certain conditions to be met.

I doubt many of those who use this trait actually build around it. You don’t build around each of the traits you use either, just some of them.

If you take illusionary persona on the mesmer, i’m surely going to play shatter.
Sure it’ll improve any build, but i’d gladly build around it.

Apples and oranges.

You could compare more equivalent traits but ofc that wouldn’t help your argument much.

Perhaps thieves need to speed up their decision making skills if they think Improvisation is useless due to rng.

If the trait resets nothing, you don’t need decision making skills at all.
Plus, assuming my suggestion would be the actual trait, you’re guaranteed a random reset on any build as long as all abilities are on cooldown, thus it wouldn’t reduce decision making skills, but rather it’d lower the chances the skill turns out to be useless or a complete win.

Let me iterate: i’m not any sad about the rng, however in the actual design you risk resetting nothing even when every ability is on cooldown unless you build around it.

And aside the reset, it’s still a “just boring” skill that improves a mechanic thieves don’t have access to alone; or in combination with all but two professions.
Thus unless it resets your cooldowns, it’s a boring, more useless trait than the already boring +5% dagger and co. kind of traits.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

NinjaEd.3946:

A thief enjoying an RNG factor in their build? Who are you?!!

Seriously, how can anyone enjoy the random effect this trait produces? Thief needs quick decisions to pull of their bursts and stay alive, having a 1 in 5 chance to recharge your skill(s) is just awful. There needs to be a purpose to this trait other than “ooh, piece of candy”.

I used to think the same untill I tried the trait. This “piece of candy” is a lot more useful to me than 5% on dagger skills or similar traits, which are just boring. Quick decision making is exactly what Improvisation allows for, since it changes thief’s possibilities right away.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Now, a 20% chance to reset all utility cooldowns is indeed really powerful, but useless 80% of the time.
Instead, having to build around improvisation will limit what utilities, healing and elite skills you can choose while making utility-specific traits much less useful.

Plus, now that you’ve seen i know what intended means, let me iterate that in much earlier stages of the game the thief would steal a bundle, not an extra ability.
In that enviroment, the trait would’ve been just right, right now not so much.

Thus, this is why i’m proposing possible solutions to make the trait interesting and useful, rather than a really situational trait that requires certain conditions to be met.

I doubt many of those who use this trait actually build around it. You don’t build around each of the traits you use either, just some of them.

If you take illusionary persona on the mesmer, i’m surely going to play shatter.
Sure it’ll improve any build, but i’d gladly build around it.

Apples and oranges.

You could compare more equivalent traits but ofc that wouldn’t help your argument much.

Perhaps thieves need to speed up their decision making skills if they think Improvisation is useless due to rng.

There really is no decision making when you have a chance at nothing happening. If it guartuneed atleast 1 of my utility skills currently on cooldown would reset then it would be perfect both for rng’s sake and those who want to actually decide.

Simple terms, put 1 skill on cooldown and proc improvisation, you know exactly which utility is going to be reset. Put all 3 skills on cooldown and now its random but atleast you know 1 skill will be recharged.

What about a couple options for changing this trait without making it brokenly OP?

-Reduce the cooldown of 1 skill type by 50% when you successfully steal. (This would be randomly chosen based on your selected skill types. If your skelk venom had 30 seconds left on its recharge and of your selected skills venoms were chosen, it would drop to 15 seconds. This would cross over to elite and healing skill types. The cooldown reduction is based on the remaining recharge time, so the sooner you proc this effect the higher pay off.)

-Recharge 1 skill type on a successful steal. (skill type is chosen at random based on your selected skills. In other words, it won’t pick a skill type you don’t have slotted. This would all skills of that type, and would cross over to elite or healing skill types. As a preemptive measure to limit abuse for those slotting 1 skill type, a 60 second ICD would be in place for up to 3 skills, and for each additional skill recharged increase the ICD by 30 seconds so 5 venoms being recharged would activate a 120 second cooldown on this trait. This choice is more of a game changer than something you’d put into a rotation.)

-Recharge 1 skill type on a successful steal. (similar to the one above however this would not cross over to healing and elite skills and would only effect 1 of your utilities currently on cooldown. To a lesser degree to limit abuse, a 45 second ICD would be in place. This choice would follow more of a rotation and give choice to the thief in how they want to play with this trait.)

-Recharge 1 skill at random or gain initiative on a successful steal. (either recharge 1 healing, elite, or utility skill chosen at random based on them being on cooldown or gain say 6 initiative. To limit abuse, a 90 second ICD is in place. This would best suit the rng where it could give you what you want or just add nothing that you needed. The true feel of improvising but with a cd so the effect isn’t so easy to abuse.)

-Recharge 1 skill at random. (similar to the above except without the intitiave part. Same deal where it relates closest to the RNG element of this trait but it would still only chose 1 skill that is currently on cooldown from your slotted healing utility and elite skills.)

NinjaEd.3946:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

NinjaEd.3946:

A thief enjoying an RNG factor in their build? Who are you?!!

Seriously, how can anyone enjoy the random effect this trait produces? Thief needs quick decisions to pull of their bursts and stay alive, having a 1 in 5 chance to recharge your skill(s) is just awful. There needs to be a purpose to this trait other than “ooh, piece of candy”.

I used to think the same untill I tried the trait. This “piece of candy” is a lot more useful to me than 5% on dagger skills or similar traits, which are just boring. Quick decision making is exactly what Improvisation allows for, since it changes thief’s possibilities right away.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Now, a 20% chance to reset all utility cooldowns is indeed really powerful, but useless 80% of the time.
Instead, having to build around improvisation will limit what utilities, healing and elite skills you can choose while making utility-specific traits much less useful.

Plus, now that you’ve seen i know what intended means, let me iterate that in much earlier stages of the game the thief would steal a bundle, not an extra ability.
In that enviroment, the trait would’ve been just right, right now not so much.

Thus, this is why i’m proposing possible solutions to make the trait interesting and useful, rather than a really situational trait that requires certain conditions to be met.

I doubt many of those who use this trait actually build around it. You don’t build around each of the traits you use either, just some of them.

If you take illusionary persona on the mesmer, i’m surely going to play shatter.
Sure it’ll improve any build, but i’d gladly build around it.

Apples and oranges.

You could compare more equivalent traits but ofc that wouldn’t help your argument much.

Perhaps thieves need to speed up their decision making skills if they think Improvisation is useless due to rng.

-snip-

The trait must work with all skills, not just the on cooldown ones, as otherwise it’d be terribly overpowered regardless of the ICD you put in.

Why?
suggestion one: reset 50% of one type cooldown out of your skill bar.
Every 20 seconds, halving all cooldowns is too much, be it all deception or all venoms.
Not even a grandmaster trait should allow this.

suggestion two+three: fully reset one skill type out of your skill bar.
Regardless of cooldown, that can be abused insanely hard, such as a super instakill venom build. (all venoms twice applied with two unloads…insane)

Suggestion four+five: double scorpion wire into a zerg…double shadow refuge… double shadowstep… it’s better to avoid i’m afraid.

That said, the skill MUST recharge a random utility or utility+heal skill regardless of cooldown or skill type… OR apply a really high flat cooldown reduction (for example: 40 seconds) to said skill.

That would be the ONLY way to don’t force an ICD (which is BAD!), while having the trait to be balanced.
To be noted is that this way the trait is mostly useful in emergency scenarios, while it’d be almost useless in offensive/upper hand scenarios, where the skill could otherwise be easily abused to chain powerful abilities together.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

NinjaEd.3946:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

NinjaEd.3946:

A thief enjoying an RNG factor in their build? Who are you?!!

Seriously, how can anyone enjoy the random effect this trait produces? Thief needs quick decisions to pull of their bursts and stay alive, having a 1 in 5 chance to recharge your skill(s) is just awful. There needs to be a purpose to this trait other than “ooh, piece of candy”.

I used to think the same untill I tried the trait. This “piece of candy” is a lot more useful to me than 5% on dagger skills or similar traits, which are just boring. Quick decision making is exactly what Improvisation allows for, since it changes thief’s possibilities right away.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Now, a 20% chance to reset all utility cooldowns is indeed really powerful, but useless 80% of the time.
Instead, having to build around improvisation will limit what utilities, healing and elite skills you can choose while making utility-specific traits much less useful.

Plus, now that you’ve seen i know what intended means, let me iterate that in much earlier stages of the game the thief would steal a bundle, not an extra ability.
In that enviroment, the trait would’ve been just right, right now not so much.

Thus, this is why i’m proposing possible solutions to make the trait interesting and useful, rather than a really situational trait that requires certain conditions to be met.

I doubt many of those who use this trait actually build around it. You don’t build around each of the traits you use either, just some of them.

If you take illusionary persona on the mesmer, i’m surely going to play shatter.
Sure it’ll improve any build, but i’d gladly build around it.

Apples and oranges.

You could compare more equivalent traits but ofc that wouldn’t help your argument much.

Perhaps thieves need to speed up their decision making skills if they think Improvisation is useless due to rng.

-snip-

The trait must work with all skills, not just the on cooldown ones, as otherwise it’d be terribly overpowered regardless of the ICD you put in.

Why?
suggestion one: reset 50% of one type cooldown out of your skill bar.
Every 20 seconds, halving all cooldowns is too much, be it all deception or all venoms.
Not even a grandmaster trait should allow this.

suggestion two+three: fully reset one skill type out of your skill bar.
Regardless of cooldown, that can be abused insanely hard, such as a super instakill venom build. (all venoms twice applied with two unloads…insane)

Suggestion four+five: double scorpion wire into a zerg…double shadow refuge… double shadowstep… it’s better to avoid i’m afraid.

That said, the skill MUST recharge a random utility or utility+heal skill regardless of cooldown or skill type… OR apply a really high flat cooldown reduction (for example: 40 seconds) to said skill.

That would be the ONLY way to don’t force an ICD (which is BAD!), while having the trait to be balanced.
To be noted is that this way the trait is mostly useful in emergency scenarios, while it’d be almost useless in offensive/upper hand scenarios, where the skill could otherwise be easily abused to chain powerful abilities together.

Please give me an example of how one could easibly abuse improvisation if it recharges one of a slotted utility.

Sifu.6527:

ButterOfDeath.2873:

NinjaEd.3946:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

NinjaEd.3946:

A thief enjoying an RNG factor in their build? Who are you?!!

Seriously, how can anyone enjoy the random effect this trait produces? Thief needs quick decisions to pull of their bursts and stay alive, having a 1 in 5 chance to recharge your skill(s) is just awful. There needs to be a purpose to this trait other than “ooh, piece of candy”.

I used to think the same untill I tried the trait. This “piece of candy” is a lot more useful to me than 5% on dagger skills or similar traits, which are just boring. Quick decision making is exactly what Improvisation allows for, since it changes thief’s possibilities right away.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Now, a 20% chance to reset all utility cooldowns is indeed really powerful, but useless 80% of the time.
Instead, having to build around improvisation will limit what utilities, healing and elite skills you can choose while making utility-specific traits much less useful.

Plus, now that you’ve seen i know what intended means, let me iterate that in much earlier stages of the game the thief would steal a bundle, not an extra ability.
In that enviroment, the trait would’ve been just right, right now not so much.

Thus, this is why i’m proposing possible solutions to make the trait interesting and useful, rather than a really situational trait that requires certain conditions to be met.

I doubt many of those who use this trait actually build around it. You don’t build around each of the traits you use either, just some of them.

If you take illusionary persona on the mesmer, i’m surely going to play shatter.
Sure it’ll improve any build, but i’d gladly build around it.

Apples and oranges.

You could compare more equivalent traits but ofc that wouldn’t help your argument much.

Perhaps thieves need to speed up their decision making skills if they think Improvisation is useless due to rng.

-snip-

The trait must work with all skills, not just the on cooldown ones, as otherwise it’d be terribly overpowered regardless of the ICD you put in.

Why?
suggestion one: reset 50% of one type cooldown out of your skill bar.
Every 20 seconds, halving all cooldowns is too much, be it all deception or all venoms.
Not even a grandmaster trait should allow this.

suggestion two+three: fully reset one skill type out of your skill bar.
Regardless of cooldown, that can be abused insanely hard, such as a super instakill venom build. (all venoms twice applied with two unloads…insane)

Suggestion four+five: double scorpion wire into a zerg…double shadow refuge… double shadowstep… it’s better to avoid i’m afraid.

That said, the skill MUST recharge a random utility or utility+heal skill regardless of cooldown or skill type… OR apply a really high flat cooldown reduction (for example: 40 seconds) to said skill.

That would be the ONLY way to don’t force an ICD (which is BAD!), while having the trait to be balanced.
To be noted is that this way the trait is mostly useful in emergency scenarios, while it’d be almost useless in offensive/upper hand scenarios, where the skill could otherwise be easily abused to chain powerful abilities together.

Please give me an example of how one could easibly abuse improvisation if it recharges one of a slotted utility.

Assuming it recharges one utility skill already on cooldown, it could be abused by using scorpion wire + steal + shadowstep (either the skill or the p/d #3) + scorpion wire against somebody into your zerg. In that situation it’d be an assured instakill.
Or shadow refuge + steal + shadow refuge for ultimate stealth uptime.
Double smoke wall in a zerg vs zerg situation or where many projectiles are flying around.

It basically would make every single ability twice as powerful at player’s whim.
How many traits allow this kind of power to be achieved? All i might think of is ranger’s trait that allows signet to affect them too… and it’ll be made into baseline thus not a big deal.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

It basically would make every single ability twice as powerful at player’s whim.
How many traits allow this kind of power to be achieved? All i might think of is ranger’s trait that allows signet to affect them too… and it’ll be made into baseline thus not a big deal.

Technically physical training allows physical skills to deal double damage and recharge quicker and its a master trait. Fresh air allows a full recharge on the attunement which in turn works on respective air attunement swap traits to proc. Ele can also be immune to all conditions above 90% health, ranger can passively remove 3 conditions every 10 seconds. They look OP because no one else really gets those effects but look at the end result of them and see how it actually effects each profession.

Regardless of what it may do, not everyone has to follow the same rules or we’d all just be using auto attacks and relying on passives. Traits are what differentiate us imo the most. There is a lot that goes into a build but traits are what bend the rules and right now, thief has an RNG trait with a % increase on something we cannot do on our own. If there were sub classes I’d say this trait is pretty good but when your own class has a trait granting a bonus towards a non-existent effect what is the point? It’d be like giving 50% poison duration to a guardian or increased vigor duration to a necromancer.

The fact that anet shipped thief out with this trait and 2 years later hasn’t done anything to it saddens me. This on a laundry list of things that have been ignored and not just on thief just is disappointing.

NinjaEd.3946:

ButterOfDeath.2873:

It basically would make every single ability twice as powerful at player’s whim.
How many traits allow this kind of power to be achieved? All i might think of is ranger’s trait that allows signet to affect them too… and it’ll be made into baseline thus not a big deal.

Technically physical training allows physical skills to deal double damage and recharge quicker and its a master trait. Fresh air allows a full recharge on the attunement which in turn works on respective air attunement swap traits to proc. Ele can also be immune to all conditions above 90% health, ranger can passively remove 3 conditions every 10 seconds. They look OP because no one else really gets those effects but look at the end result of them and see how it actually effects each profession.

Regardless of what it may do, not everyone has to follow the same rules or we’d all just be using auto attacks and relying on passives. Traits are what differentiate us imo the most. There is a lot that goes into a build but traits are what bend the rules and right now, thief has an RNG trait with a % increase on something we cannot do on our own. If there were sub classes I’d say this trait is pretty good but when your own class has a trait granting a bonus towards a non-existent effect what is the point? It’d be like giving 50% poison duration to a guardian or increased vigor duration to a necromancer.

The fact that anet shipped thief out with this trait and 2 years later hasn’t done anything to it saddens me. This on a laundry list of things that have been ignored and not just on thief just is disappointing.

Double damage on utility skills is ok-ish, not that big of a deal tbh.
Fresh air recharges a low cooldown attunement anyway, super useful when built around it but that’s it.
Both ele’s diamond skin and ranger’s 3 condi clears/10 seconds are situational defensive buffs.

The ability to double cast any ability, even in many other games (hi red mages!), would be overpowered.
Plus, it can be used/abused offensively too, while other traits are limited their own ways.

Narcarsis.5739:

The trait isn’t broken. “Bundles” refer to things such as Ice Bow, Fiery Greatsword, Lightning Hammer, etc. It works as intended.

Not really. In the beta, this trait did count stolen skills as bundles cause they actually functioned almost identically to bundles. (The stolen skill replaced your weapon skill bar). So this is just a remnant of the beta’s, and the only way to benefit from the damage bonus now, is by getting bundles from other professions.

So in other words: The trait works, but not as intended originally (and possibly intended now).