Guild Wars 2

So i been thinking that improvisation can really add some surivalability to the class if it happens to recharge a utility skill. However the effect is too random still and since most people only run 2 different skill categories in their utility. How bout we left the traps out so it only recharged venoms/signet/tricks/deception skills. Thoughts?

It would ruin some builds like the D/P Trapper Runes build in WvW or my build in sPvp that requires traps. I kinda wished that instead of recharging a random skill tree even if you don’t have it equipped, it recharged one that is equipped so that it has a bit more use and is more consistent since people who use all one type can have more use, but people who use many skill types can also recharge theirs.

I honestly think this trait should be removed from the game due to how cheesy it is. It can literally make a bad player become like a God if he is lucky enough.
So no, I’m 100% against it.

Yeah getting to recharge only equipped categories is gonna be too OP. Well bout the cheese though is it more cheese than 6s stealth or cele ele? A theif gotta do what he must to survive and spvp has been hell for theives post patch.

Edit: here is another idea. They could put the recharge effect on a 40- 45 seconds cd and make it work only on equipped utility skill categories. That way it wont be spammed every 20 s and will attain increased value as a gm. Or yeah get it to recharge an equipped skill isntead of a whole category.

What about reduce 50% of remaining CD of all utilities?

Sagat.3285:

What about reduce 50% of remaining CD of all utilities?

I like the idea! But if its all utilities might be OP still.

Eodwen.2613:

Sagat.3285:

What about reduce 50% of remaining CD of all utilities?

I like the idea! But if its all utilities might be OP still.

33% then.

That sound cool that way you cant spam them twice in a row but it still gets you your cds back in chain fights. I think Anet was hoping this would turn out to be a good combo with sword trait recharging steal or smth .

Eodwen.2613:

That sound cool that way you cant spam them twice in a row but it still gets you your cds back in chain fights. I think Anet was hoping this would turn out to be a good combo with sword trait recharging steal or smth .

Once that trait doesn’t require a specific weapon I might think of trying it out.

Yeah, that sword trait really reads as something that should work with any weapon.

I think that’s the high risk high reward thing the Thief is all about. It is afterall, what improvisation means : You deal with what you get. If you didn’t get kitten, well… deal with it.

Improv does save lives against condition ennemies though.

Rng based mechanics kinda put me off though. And it just can’t compete with executioner at the moment.

It’s not really high risk though. You aren’t suddenly at risk if you don’t proc deceptions, tricks, or venoms on Improvisation.

I run executioner myself, but I wouldn’t say executioner completely outclasses Improvisation (If anything I’d say Improvisation is slightly better than executioner on a SA build, and that executioner is better than Improvisation for a CS build). Instead, I’d say Improvisation is for a different and more sustain-based playstyle that requires you to play around the chance of proc’ing Improvisation and the 2x stolen items. So fights might last longer, but you’re much more likely to win/tie in the end. Also the ability to swing a fight in your favor becomes a lot more dependent on how well you can use stolen skills.

In my opinion GW2 is casual enough that fights being decided on RNG isn’t that big of a deal. If Anet found a way to make Improvisation less random that’d be nice. But I don’t think they should do it in a way that makes Improvisation stronger, it’s already strong enough as is.

Also you say most people only run 2 different skill categories in the first post. Most people run at least 3. Healing and Elite skills can be refreshed by Improvisation as well, and when you count those in very few people will use only 2 different skill categories (A huge part of improvisation is the ability to refresh your heal skill).

The idea of being able to reset a random skill type is very fun/engaging and really empowers the steal mechanic. BUT, I think that a slight Change could make this trait so much more fun to play. Reset one of your skills (not skill types…just one of you equipped skills) currently on cooldown. Before everyone panics this is my logic. I realize that this would allow a thief to plan what skill would proc, like a double heal perhaps – but with the current state of burst damage and insane condition damage in gw2, giving thief the opportunity to double heal, is no more “OP” than the current state of DD ele, or every class going invuln, or guardian perma blocking/elite heal. And finally, Necro’s 2 health pools. All of these classes are hitting just as hard as thief. To me having a bit more control over your proc’d skill would do wonders for thief survivability and would not break the game.
Thoughts?

I agree with you Nivik. However a lot of people will think than 24s cd on steal can make this too much OP still. I am still debating if adding an Icd longer than steal would not be too much of a nerf to your suggestion or not, but overall I really like all the ideas proposed so far.

Midi.8359:

It’s not really high risk though. You aren’t suddenly at risk if you don’t proc deceptions, tricks, or venoms on Improvisation.

I run executioner myself, but I wouldn’t say executioner completely outclasses Improvisation (If anything I’d say Improvisation is slightly better than executioner on a SA build, and that executioner is better than Improvisation for a CS build). Instead, I’d say Improvisation is for a different and more sustain-based playstyle that requires you to play around the chance of proc’ing Improvisation and the 2x stolen items. So fights might last longer, but you’re much more likely to win/tie in the end. Also the ability to swing a fight in your favor becomes a lot more dependent on how well you can use stolen skills.

In my opinion GW2 is casual enough that fights being decided on RNG isn’t that big of a deal. If Anet found a way to make Improvisation less random that’d be nice. But I don’t think they should do it in a way that makes Improvisation stronger, it’s already strong enough as is.

Also you say most people only run 2 different skill categories in the first post. Most people run at least 3. Healing and Elite skills can be refreshed by Improvisation as well, and when you count those in very few people will use only 2 different skill categories (A huge part of improvisation is the ability to refresh your heal skill).

Yeah I was thinking the signet SR shadowstep build when I said that not taking withdraw into account. Also it should be noted last night I ran improvisation with venoms, and while it recharged my venoms it didn’t recharge the basilisk one. Is this intended or bug? Anyways, yeah I agree with the less random not stronger approach.

Just tested it and I could proc basilisk (Managed to get it on my first try actually). I know for a fact you can use it on elites. I used to run Improvision + Thieves Guild as a cheese.

I played improv before the buff, then I had to ditch it when they did the first trait rebalance due to critical healing. I run a pve unicorn lifesteal “scaling tank” build with mad king runes.

The double stolen item use is a massive buff to the trait, but the fact remains that stolen items are a very mixed bag in both PvE and PvP.

I think the random category recharge is fine as is now that it’s bundled with a reliable and useful function. Improv, even the old version, had a certain character. It encourages strange variant builds (For instance, actively building around taking as many categories as possible, or making sure to take all one category for the ultimate gamble with the ultimate payoff) and that’s a good thing.

Improv is all about the name of the trait. It’s not meant for you to have control, it’s meant to create additional ways for you to exploit factors beyond your control. The 2x stolen item feature it has now is a good expression of this. You don’t get to pick stolen items, but improv will ensure that that thing you can’t control is ALWAYS more powerful than it would have been right?

So there are a few options here, if we want to keep the flavor and intent of the trait intact and still achieve something resembling balance.

1: Leave the recharge mechanic alone, and buff stolen items.
Basically, in addition to double use, increase the effectiveness of stolen items. Have it increase the damage (condition or white) of said items by 50% and double any duration they may have.

2: Leave the stolen items alone, and give it a reliable effect on utilities that doesn’t kill its weird-bar-enabling characteristics.
Making it always recharge a skill is simply too powerful. There, I said it. Considering that we can decrease steal to ~20 second cooldown, allowing improv to work in this manner would effectively create the “Venoms conundrum” for every single thief utility as they’d all have to be balanced around being reliably triggered on a 20s CD. I don’t want to see more utilities sit forever in balance limbo like venoms do simply because one trait could make them overpowered.

In stead, you could keep its current functionality, which functions to create a bit of build diversity, and simply give it a flat, non-stacking, 10% CDR on all skills. In this way you reinforce its random recharge by encouraging people to use it in the most optimal fashion (dump all skills then steal, then improvise!) by allowing people to dump their skills more often, at the cost of a GM trait.

3: Create a “catch effect” for when it fails to recharge anything.
Let’s say the recharge mechanic stays the same, but in stead of nothing at all happenning when it rolls a skill recharge, it actually does something less spectacular, but still useful. What if it gave you some boon love, or a small heal, or triggered a random less powerful (and not potentially harmful to you, so no stealth, push, or pull skills)version of a skill in that category, or granted some endurance, or kicked you a little init, or could do any of the above?

This is my favorite option as it maintains the random nature and overall flavor of the trait and reinforces its namesake. You stole, a thing happenned, and that thing is always better than nothing happenning, but is going to require you to recognize what happenned, and react quickly to play it well. In short, it makes you improvise

@PopeUrban
I respect your post, and I also can see merit in the ideas you have proposed. You have the same hang ups over my idea that I see time and time again, which seems to be in the name of the trait. “Improvisation”. Now I do realize that trait names have a special place in the hearts of guildwars players. They do capture the essence of the trait and its intended “feel” really well. Two things: A) the playstyle of my suggested trait still has the element of improvisation in the sense that at times you will improvise your skill usage based around what your current needs are/steal uptime. B ) I would hate to think that we would not make positive changes to a trait because it may not speak quite as well to the definition of the trait name even if it ads to the fun and viability of the class.

I hear you, but what I’m saying is that as you’ve laid it out it still experiences some pretty massive balance problems, or the same problem it already has.

Version 1
The trait only recharges skills that are on cooldown.
Now, you have the ability to selectively double-use any utility, elite or heal. as i noted in my previous post, this creates the “Venom Conundrum” as all skills now must be balanced around an effective cooldown of trickery traited steal. In this case several thief skills are just plain too good to remain in their current state, and many of them are otherwise perfectly fine skills. You couldn’t let shadowstep, daggerstorm, withdraw, or a bunch of other useful skills in the wild with that kind of power.

Version 2
The trait randomly selects a skill on your bar, whether it is on cooldown or not.
In this interpretation of your idea it has the same problem. The trait has a pretty high (but controllable) chance of doing nothing unless you blow literally every cooldown. Again, this doesn’t really address the fundamental issue: Sometimes the trait just doesn’t do anything beneficial. While it’s true you would now have more control over WHEN it does nothing, you’re effectively penalizing people for being judicious and tactical about their skill use, or you’re effectively preventing them from taking advantage of the other half of the trait. In this case the player is incentizived to either blow all CDs as often as possible in order to ensure the trait works, or they’re incentivized to avoid stealing until all of their stuff is on CD, effectively nullifying the benefits of having two stolen items. This interpretation makes the trait fight with itself.

To reiterate
The trait can be buffed and can keep it’s signature “wow moment” of recharging two or three key skills at one time, and I laid out some options that would do that and retain balance. My personal favorite is my option 3, add a catch effect that triggers when nothing gets recharged. That effect could be random, or totally predictable, and as its only “ideal use” scenario is using it when nothing is on CD can be balanced internally without effecting the operative power levels of other skills, or overly penalizing reactive and tactical use of steal and the rest of the player’s cooldowns.

I can get behind that : )

Improvisation is great as it is. Please don’t try to fix something that isn’t broken. That 20% chance to get all of your deception skills reset is far better than just getting one skill guaranteed to reset imo.

Hmm I will test this more but it seems wierd that the other venoms I was using reset while basilisk did not. I will keep an eye out for it though. Anyway yeah improvisation is great but the rng effect doesn’t give a lot of people ( including myself) a good feeling. Winning a fight cause you got “lucky” even if the odds are in your favor. Combined with the fact that some of the stolen items themselves have a debatable use value, I often steal just to steal and the improvisation doesn’t give me enough to use steal more tactically atm.