Guild Wars 2

As the title says, a 1200 weapon is needed. Stealth is not as effective so it could be claimed that thieves don’t need a 1200 weapon. It has been suggested that they give theves rifles, which, in my personal opinion, would be the best thing.

Nemo.6295:

As the title says, a 1200 weapon is needed. Stealth is not as effective so it could be claimed that thieves don’t need a 1200 weapon. It has been suggested that they give theves rifles, which, in my personal opinion, would be the best thing.

I’m not sure what Thief build you’re playing, but I don’t think we need the firepower of Warrior/Rangers with the same reach too, I believe that may in fact be a designed limitation.

We have plenty of ways to get out of danger, so I don’t think we need 1200 range. It’d, be convenient, but not necessary.

Yes, agree. Great idea +1

Why wouldn’t you want more playstyles? Especially one we can’t come close to currently.
Theif have the least amount of weapon sets in game.

well. A sniper rifle would be fun :>

Aervius.2016:

I’m not sure what Thief build you’re playing, but I don’t think we need the firepower of Warrior/Rangers with the same reach too, I believe that may in fact be a designed limitation.

It’s not that we need their firepower, it’s more that we need a max range weapon like the rest of the classes.

Jefzor.7145:

We have plenty of ways to get out of danger, so I don’t think we need 1200 range. It’d, be convenient, but not necessary.

It’s mostly for WvW, sure there are other places where it can be useful but the lack of a 1200 range weapon becomes most evident there.

And speaking of necesity then please tell me how are both long bows and rifles necessary for a warrior? Just saying.

My 1,200 range Scorpion Wire is an effective weapon so to speak. It brings my enemy closer so I can waste them. Pulls invaders off towers and exposes them. Adds lulz at times, too.

a 1200 range weapon is needed in a number of pve fights as well. 3 of the 4 paths of TA really need 1200 range for the last boss if you dont want to hinder your group, for example.

Not just for WvW, for example 2 days ago I was levelling my Guardian, completing Metrica Province map, and I encountered the gian Fire Elemental.

At that hour, there was no one in my server in that map, it was me agains the fire elemental. So I picked my Scepter and started to hit him from 1200, no needing to get too close to agro his minions, and I could easily avoid his fire disks from my safe spot. It helped too to have aegis and health regen so when I commited a mistake it was easily fixed and I only had to deal with the ocasional elemental appearing near my location.

Having a 1200 weapon helped me defeat that dangerous opponent that usually kills multiple players (20 minutes fight :P) and I’m not sure I could’ve done the same with my Thief 900 range.

That was an extreme example, but there are many ways in which having access to 1200 keeps you safe. The only way to keep Stealth constantly is by using a melee weapon, which many times means exposing yourself to one-shotting damage.

And of course there is WvW where we can only throw slow moving arrows to do minimal dps to opponents hammering us from the walls (or viceversa).

Can’t complain about the bow. It’s nothing next to a warrior’s rifle but I can appreciate what it can do. Still, not enough compared to the other classes. Pistols are relatively awful (and I hate saying that cause I love pistols) and the short bow is ok, only that it is so kitten slow, I can literally outrun my clusterbombs, still the fact that it has a 900 range kittens it.

Now I know many people on this forum go ape kitten when they hear thieves asking for something, I’m not interested in a flame war with them. All I want is to get my message across to AN and let them know that I, as a thief player, find the lack of a 1200 range weapon, quite an issue.

P.S. Btw AN, using “kitten” to censor obscene words is fnny but give it a couple more months and kitten will have a new meaning in the GW2 player’s vocabulary. Way to kitten the kittens.

I can’t complain about the shortbow. It does great work. I don’t know what you guys are doing in WvW, but I absolutely drool over offensive sieges, because I can just maneuver around a little near the wall and collect bag after bag after bag. It’s a really good, really flexible weapon.

I concur. Rifles would probably work. It’s not about firepower, it’s about range. There are many PvE situations in which Thieves are very limited because of their short range.

Hermes.7014:

There are many PvE situations in which Thieves are very limited because of their short range.

In PvE? Where is it that 1200 is absolutely needed and 900 with occasional 1200-range Clusterbombs just won’t suffice?

Aside from dragon boss fights, 900 vs 1200 range has made absolutely no difference in everything I’ve done so far (75% map completion, including all the hard zones; at least half of the dungeons; Lost Shores and FOTM).

Cluster Bomb on Short Bow already has 1200 range. And it’s a nice-sized AoE(which means it’s a bit larger in true range).

I don’t need a 1200 range weapon. Short Bow is already my 1200 range weapon thanks to Cluster Bomb. And since it’s fueled by initiative and not cooldown, and only costs 3 initiative, I can fire it pretty often even when running on empty.

We do not need a 1200 range weapon while Cluster Bomb has 1200 range. Believe me.

Darxio.5672:

Cluster Bomb on Short Bow already has 1200 range. And it’s a nice-sized AoE(which means it’s a bit larger in true range).

I don’t need a 1200 range weapon. Short Bow is already my 1200 range weapon thanks to Cluster Bomb. And since it’s fueled by initiative and not cooldown, and only costs 3 initiative, I can fire it pretty often even when running on empty.

We do not need a 1200 range weapon while Cluster Bomb has 1200 range. Believe me.

final boss in TA 3 of 4 paths, thieves are dead weight due to 900 range.

path 3 arah first boss can be done with 900 range, if you enjoy pressing 1 for every shot to hit him because he usually stands at 1000 range and you cant autofire that far.

lupi in arah (all paths) is the same thing. you have to manually press 1 for every shot during phase 1 grub stacking unless your entire group wants to give up 300 range of extra safety so you can be close enough to autofire.

this is off the top of my head.

We need a long bow with 1500 range, add on a staff that can place necromancer’s mark on the ground or cast elementalist’s meteor shower.

Nemo.6295:

Jefzor.7145:

We have plenty of ways to get out of danger, so I don’t think we need 1200 range. It’d, be convenient, but not necessary.

It’s mostly for WvW, sure there are other places where it can be useful but the lack of a 1200 range weapon becomes most evident there.

And speaking of necesity then please tell me how are both long bows and rifles necessary for a warrior? Just saying.

Warrior Longbow is only 900 range, minus Combustive Shot which is 1,200.
We don’t really “need” a weapon set that has a 1,200 unit range, but I’d certainly be in favor of adjusting the “Powerful Shots” Major trait to increase Shortbow range to 1,200.
At least that way Thieves might actually choose to slot it.

Nemo.6295:

Jefzor.7145:

We have plenty of ways to get out of danger, so I don’t think we need 1200 range. It’d, be convenient, but not necessary.

It’s mostly for WvW, sure there are other places where it can be useful but the lack of a 1200 range weapon becomes most evident there.

And speaking of necesity then please tell me how are both long bows and rifles necessary for a warrior? Just saying.

Well, I guess a lackluster rifle with low damage and useless utility skills, but 1200 range auto attack wouldn’t be a bad thing. It’d have to be worse than P/P to be balanced, kind of like guardian’s sceptre.

Oh, by all means, go try the engineer’s rifle with it’s incredible 1000 range (pistol has 900, just like thieves). I’m sure you’ll all be dying for your own version…

If you look at the warrior’s list of weapons then you will see that when choosing a long-range weapon longbow and rifle are the only options they get. Most warriors pick the rifle (in wvw setting) for the purpose of punishing anyone who kites. It also has these cute things called “channeled abilities” that your stealth does not break. Makes it much easier to find the thief when he’s lying in the same spot you saw the bullets going :P

ASP.8093:

Aside from dragon boss fights, 900 vs 1200 range has made absolutely no difference in everything I’ve done so far

And I’d like to point out that you get three or four times the loot on most dragon boss fights if you ignore the dragon and kill adds. On Claw of Jormag in particular, I haven’t even attacked the dragon once in the last >10 runs.

I’m not opposed to a new ranged weapon for thieves, but it is pretty low on my priority list. I’d like to see current weapon sets tuned up (particularly P/P) and torch introduced as an off-hand weapon long before another two-handed ranged weapon.

Remove Mug and replace the trait with making your shortbow 1200 range single target for the 1 ability and cluster bomb. Kill two birds with one stone.

The rifle or long bow woul be better. Why mess with the crap we already have using lazy solutuons when they can just give us a proper weapon set that focuses on long rage.

Chuck Zitto.2367:

Remove Mug and replace the trait with making your shortbow 1200 range single target for the 1 ability and cluster bomb. Kill two birds with one stone.

Cluster Bomb is already 1200 range. Maybe people don’t know this?

Cluster Bomb has 1200 range but you just can’t use the same way as the auto-attack. It uses initiative and the arrow travels terribly slowly.

I agree. We’re the only profession without a 1200 auto-attack. I really don’t understand that all. But I disagree with giving us a Sniper Rifle, that would completely negate the Rifle Warrior’s niche. Buffing our Pistol/Short Bow range to 1200 would be much simpler and easier. Engineer’s have a 1000 Pistol range and Rangers get a 1200 Short Bow range so it wouldn’t be very unbalanced or game-breaking. Get on that ANet. :P

Skipping all the posts, I highly disagree to Thieves needing a 1200.

Shortbow is already everything you could every want from a ranged weapon. Literally all of its abilities are fantastic. And 900 range should really be all you need.

If they gave us a 1200 rifle, it should probably have abilities as bad as the pistol’s in order to be fair.

That being said, pistols need a buff.

Yeah, no. Thief doesn’t need a 1200 range weapon. It would be insanely broken due to stealth. There’s a reason Arenanet did this.

Cluster Bomb alone gives us better AoE 1200 range in WvW than what other classes have. We don’t need an auto attack, and other skills, at 1200 range as well.

No matter how hard I try I cannot see the logic in not having a 1200 range weapon. Every single class except for us has a 1200 range weapon. That makes no sense to me and I can’t see how that can be justified.

Krathalos.3461:

Yeah, no. Thief doesn’t need a 1200 range weapon. It would be insanely broken due to stealth. There’s a reason Arenanet did this.

Cluster Bomb alone gives us better AoE 1200 range in WvW than what other classes have. We don’t need an auto attack, and other skills, at 1200 range as well.

“Yeah, no” really? Do you talk like that for real?

Stealth is not godmode like in WoW. And from my experience in WvW we do need it, plus the experience of people who say it’s even more needed in PVE.

So yeah, we need a proper max range weapon with apropriate abilities, not half arsed shortcuts and other lazy solutions, as I said in my first post, stealth is no excuse.

And cluster bomb is a mediocre ability in open WvW. Funny how it’s considered the best we have right now.

Nemo.6295:

And cluster bomb is a mediocre ability in open WvW

And in “open WvW”, thieves have the best range manipulation in the game. A new 1200 range weapon is not necessary for WvW. It probably wouldn’t break anything, and would give thieves a lazy option, but it isn’t necessary. What shouldn’t happen, however, is thieves getting a huge damage long-range weapon like the “sniper” rifle that keeps getting clamored for. If a full 1200 range weapon happens for thieves, it is likely to be substantially less effective than the tactics we have now, but easier to use.

But it’s ok for warriors to get a high damage long range weapon? If we are gonna apply logic to this then let’s use all examples. Do warriors really “need” the rifle? I mean they are a melee class, right? Built with survivability and mobility, why did they need a weapon that’s good enough to rival ranger damage? Obviously AN thought they did and everyone agrees. How does that change when it comes to the thief?

When and if we ever get a max range weapon, I do not expect it, or want it to be some half arsed crap tossed in there so thieves wouldn’t be the only class in game without a 1.2k range weapon. I expect it to be put there to fill in the gaps.

Nemo.6295:

But it’s ok for warriors to get a high damage long range weapon? If we are gonna apply logic to this then let’s use all examples. Do warriors really “need” the rifle? I mean they are a melee class, right? Built with survivability and mobility, why did they need a weapon that’s good enough to rival ranger damage? Obviously AN thought they did and everyone agrees. How does that change when it comes to the thief?

When and if we ever get a max range weapon, I do not expect it, or want it to be some half arsed crap tossed in there so thieves wouldn’t be the only class in game without a 1.2k range weapon. I expect it to be put there to fill in the gaps.

1. Warriors aren’t a melee class, those designations don’t exist in GW2.
2. Thieves have 1.2K range options, I haven’t seen any compelling evidence that there is “a gap that needs to be filled” unless that gap is specifically “I want an option to sit on a wall half-AFK and shoot far away for low damage”.

If you make your requirements specific enough, you can make arguments that every profession “deserves” access to things other professions get. The fact is that professions have to be evaluated on how well they perform on a case-by-case basis, not in terms of giving every profession the same toolset.

Eh don’t feel the need. Just spam my slow kitten Clusterbomb, worst case scenario im on an arrow cart, woe is me.
Dem carts don’t fire themselves.

Nemo.6295:

Do warriors really “need” the rifle? I mean they are a melee class, right? Built with survivability and mobility, why did they need a weapon that’s good enough to rival ranger damage? Obviously AN thought they did and everyone agrees. How does that change when it comes to the thief?

We already have a weapon that rivals the ranger’s damage: shortbow. In WvW, it’s one of the best ranged weapons for spreading a lot of pain around quickly.

ASP.8093:

Nemo.6295:

Do warriors really “need” the rifle? I mean they are a melee class, right? Built with survivability and mobility, why did they need a weapon that’s good enough to rival ranger damage? Obviously AN thought they did and everyone agrees. How does that change when it comes to the thief?

We already have a weapon that rivals the ranger’s damage: shortbow. In WvW, it’s one of the best ranged weapons for spreading a lot of pain around quickly.

If only its velocity was increased by 100%.

“Thief doesn’t need 1200 because they have stealth!”

“Hi, I’m a Mesmer. I have stealth and 1200 range.”

Real thief fights in close to mid range. If you want to be a sniper, play rifle warrior.

Nemo.6295:

P.S. Btw AN, using “kitten” to censor obscene words is fnny but give it a couple more months and kitten will have a new meaning in the GW2 player’s vocabulary. Way to kitten the kittens.

I used to wonder why everyone was talking about kittens all the time. Im such a perpetual n00b that it actually took me a bit to work it out. think I’ll start saying “kitten” on raidcall all the time. I think hearing “the kitten gate is down” would be hilarious. I’ll tell people the raidcall server has a new profanity filter and send them off looking for the option to turn it off.

Anti infraction comment: thief is a melee class so I’m ok with no long range weapon. But seriously why can rangers fire 20 from their longbow for every one from my shortbow? The only way I can seem to make the shortbow worth using is going from cond build to crit so the thing at least hits harder.

Shinhwa.1604:

[…]The only way I can seem to make the shortbow worth using is going from cond build to crit so the thing at least hits harder.

Thief is supposed to be built around crit and power. Going for pure condi damage means kittening yourself. Sure, you can do this, you can do many things in this game, but it won’t be as effective as crit/power.

Dagins.5163:

Shinhwa.1604:

[…]The only way I can seem to make the shortbow worth using is going from cond build to crit so the thing at least hits harder.

Thief is supposed to be built around crit and power. Going for pure condi damage means kittening yourself. Sure, you can do this, you can do many things in this game, but it won’t be as effective as crit/power.

I found plenty of what seemed like good condition builds. And it works as long as I’m in a group in WvW (all I play). But with just a few of us, or solo, I can’t survive even 1v1. So yeah, crit/power, has been a lot better just in the few days I’ve been doing it.

Dagins.5163:

Shinhwa.1604:

[…]The only way I can seem to make the shortbow worth using is going from cond build to crit so the thing at least hits harder.

Thief is supposed to be built around crit and power. Going for pure condi damage means kittening yourself. Sure, you can do this, you can do many things in this game, but it won’t be as effective as crit/power.

Death Blossom+Caltrops, Cluster Bomb Shotgun, and Sneak Attack builds would like to have a word with you.

The major advantage to condition-based builds is that they take far less raw stat points to max out offensively, leaving way more stats for anything else you want to push.

Dagins.5163:

Shinhwa.1604:

[…]The only way I can seem to make the shortbow worth using is going from cond build to crit so the thing at least hits harder.

Thief is supposed to be built around crit and power. Going for pure condi damage means kittening yourself. Sure, you can do this, you can do many things in this game, but it won’t be as effective as crit/power.

Condition damage is actually pretty great + allows you to take some traits to remove conditions and restore health while in stealth.

Tulisin.6945:

1. Warriors aren’t a melee class, those designations don’t exist in GW2.
2. Thieves have 1.2K range options, I haven’t seen any compelling evidence that there is “a gap that needs to be filled” unless that gap is specifically “I want an option to sit on a wall half-AFK and shoot far away for low damage”.

If you make your requirements specific enough, you can make arguments that every profession “deserves” access to things other professions get. The fact is that professions have to be evaluated on how well they perform on a case-by-case basis, not in terms of giving every profession the same toolset.

1. Warriors are melee-focused, yes they have ranged weapons but that does not make them a ranged class. I haven’t seen warriors running around with rifle&bow. Some use rifles most use 2h swords and shied + axe or some other 1h weapon, while changing to a rifle when it’s required. That’s pretty much all I’m asking, to have that option.
2. Then you haven’t been reading this thread and just responding randomly to my posts. And honestly, I’m not interested in trying to convince someone who refuses to be convinced. The rest of the classes have a 1.2k weapon, does that mean every last one of them is sitting half afk on a wall cracking ther ranged weapons without meaning? Cause if it were so then wall defense would not be possible. Stop pulling things out of your rear to make it sound worse than it actually is and we can have a proper discussion.

Plus, I’m not demanding a class-specific ability. I’m asking for thieves (the only class without a 1.2k ranged weapon) to be put in line with the rest using an apropriate weapon for the class with apropriate abilities.

So what are you so afraid of? If this ever comes true, it will be as optinal as any other weapon. Meaning you don’t have to use it.

Dagins.5163:

Real thief fights in close to mid range. If you want to be a sniper, play rifle warrior.

Considering theves have 2 full ranged weapon sets and considering full-ranged theieves are next to non-existant, you don’t have to worry about selling out to a combat style. Rather getting another tool to use when needed.

Or am I the only one carrying other weapon types in my bags for when it’s required?

Death Blossom+Caltrops, Cluster Bomb Shotgun, and Sneak Attack builds would like to have a word with you.

I don’t know who would stand in place, tanking caltrops damage and death blossoms (mobs in PvE maybe). Both of these attacks are extremly easy to avoid, and just cannot burst somebody down, even at low HP. Also, X stacks of bleeds may be removed by a single condition removing ability. You have no chance winning a competitive 1 vs 1 fight.

Cluster bomb x3 bleed is hard to land on a good player, and if you miss with 1-2 small bombs, you lower damage output by 33-66%. This can be dodged by pressing movement buttons. Very unreliable.

Sneak attack spam might be good here, but it requires a condition – target must have low mobility. This setup doesn’t have gap closers. You can simply move out of the thief’s range, so they can’t hit C&D, and their damage output will be lowered to basement level. Not to mention some smart blinds, which will make them lose entire initiative bar on failed C&Ds. And it’s very easy to predict when the thief wants to use C&D – whenever they are in melee range.

In general, condition damage builds are very passive, and being passive in PvP means your death. You must jump in, kill the target, and jump out. The end.

Nemo.6295:

Krathalos.3461:

Yeah, no. Thief doesn’t need a 1200 range weapon. It would be insanely broken due to stealth. There’s a reason Arenanet did this.

Cluster Bomb alone gives us better AoE 1200 range in WvW than what other classes have. We don’t need an auto attack, and other skills, at 1200 range as well.

“Yeah, no” really? Do you talk like that for real?

Stealth is not godmode like in WoW. And from my experience in WvW we do need it, plus the experience of people who say it’s even more needed in PVE.

So yeah, we need a proper max range weapon with apropriate abilities, not half arsed shortcuts and other lazy solutions, as I said in my first post, stealth is no excuse.

And cluster bomb is a mediocre ability in open WvW. Funny how it’s considered the best we have right now.

Rule #1 to prove your point: try to make fun of the person you’re arguing with.

So yeah, we don’t need a max range weapon (hint: 1200 isn’t “max range”).

Yes, you said in your first post that stealth is no excuse. That doesn’t make it true. You didn’t even TRY to defend your position on this; you simply stated it then walked away and expected everyone to believe you undoubtedly. Sell me on it, or at the very least explain your reasoning, and maybe I’ll be able to agree with you.

Stealth WOULD be overpowered at 1200 range. This is very obvious. Unless you’re a thief, it’s already difficult to kill a thief at 900 range with a shortbow without CC abuse (only because of how easy it is to run away on thief). Even then, Shadowstep makes it more difficult. The only way a 1200 range weapon on thief would make sense is if they made it an extremely immobile weapon set, and that would completely go against the thief concept as a whole.

The fact that you consider Cluster Bomb bad in open world WvW is more proof that you’re bad. It’s easy to hit with. Stop trying to use it at max range and you won’t have trouble with it.

By the way, when I said Cluster Bomb was good in WvW, I didn’t mean in open world. Although it is good there, Cluster Bomb really shines when attacking or defending a tower, keep or castle. It is one of the best options in the game for doing this, and it is also one of the best options for destroying enemy siege.

Dagins.5163:

Death Blossom+Caltrops, Cluster Bomb Shotgun, and Sneak Attack builds would like to have a word with you.

I don’t know who would stand in place, tanking caltrops damage and death blossoms (mobs in PvE maybe). Both of these attacks are extremly easy to avoid, and just cannot burst somebody down, even at low HP. Also, X stacks of bleeds may be removed by a single condition removing ability. You have no chance winning a competitive 1 vs 1 fight.

Cluster bomb x3 bleed is hard to land on a good player, and if you miss with 1-2 small bombs, you lower damage output by 33-66%. This can be dodged by pressing movement buttons. Very unreliable.

Sneak attack spam might be good here, but it requires a condition – target must have low mobility. This setup doesn’t have gap closers. You can simply move out of the thief’s range, so they can’t hit C&D, and their damage output will be lowered to basement level. Not to mention some smart blinds, which will make them lose entire initiative bar on failed C&Ds. And it’s very easy to predict when the thief wants to use C&D – whenever they are in melee range.

In general, condition damage builds are very passive, and being passive in PvP means your death. You must jump in, kill the target, and jump out. The end.

In short: Condition builds don’t mesh with your play style. If I threw every play style that wasn’t mine into the “not viable” bin, I should think thieves in a very bad spot indeed.

Condition builds work great for thief, you just don’t enjoy playing that way, and that is fine.