Guild Wars 2

I’ve had the opportunity to play around with Rending Shade more since this trait was released. I love it, and here are the reasons why.

Boon spam is real. Not only do people run high boon duration builds that increase their own classes boon duration, they also run durability runes that grant protection and resistance as well. A well constructed boon build will dominate simply by virtue of taking much less damage, 100% uptime regeneration, and might stacking producing higher damage while still being able to take more tanky stats.

Rending Shade is a solution, at least for thieves, to this shift in the meta. Until boon duration is toned down—if ever—this is thieve’s number one trait for managing the boon happy “meta.”

I have fought Druids, Dragonhunters, Scrappers, and others using Rending Shade. The results have been much more favorable. Consistently, if you apply frequent stealth attacks, they do far less damage and take more damage. More importantly, because thieves do not have access to many boons naturally, Rending Shade gives access to the boons being stolen. Having protection stolen from Scrapper, or Dragonhunter, or Druid makes a world of difference.

Shadowshot might be a “better” skill in some instances. With Rending Shade, backstab becomes a viable option for those looking to cut down the bunker meta. If you backstab every 4-6 seconds or so there is far less bunker available. And if you don’t like resistance protecting from everything from bleed to immobilize this is how long duration resistance builds lose their invulnerability.

No surprises there. The only lingering question is, should the Stealth Attack cool down be tied to Rending Shade and not across the board?

To be clear; if you spec for Rending Shade, your stealth attack has the 1s ICD.
If you didn’t spec for Rending Shade, stealth attack has no CD.

I personally have no problem with 1s ICD, but to make more people happy, I think keeping the ICD in Rending Shade is a good compromise.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

No surprises there. The only lingering question is, should the Stealth Attack cool down be tied to Rending Shade and not across the board?

To be clear; if you spec for Rending Shade, your stealth attack has the 1s ICD.
If you didn’t spec for Rending Shade, stealth attack has no CD.

I personally have no problem with 1s ICD, but to make more people happy, I think keeping the ICD in Rending Shade is a good compromise.

Why should Rending Shade have a CD in the first place? It requires the attack to land for it to proc if it lands you have a CD in the form of Revealed.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

No surprises there. The only lingering question is, should the Stealth Attack cool down be tied to Rending Shade and not across the board?

To be clear; if you spec for Rending Shade, your stealth attack has the 1s ICD.
If you didn’t spec for Rending Shade, stealth attack has no CD.

I personally have no problem with 1s ICD, but to make more people happy, I think keeping the ICD in Rending Shade is a good compromise.

Why should Rending Shade have a CD in the first place? It requires the attack to land for it to proc if it lands you have a CD in the form of Revealed.

Not sure what you’re talking about. As of right now, whether you spec for RS or not, stealth attack have a 1s ICD. Since the ICD and RS was introduced at the same time, it’s a safe assumption that the decision to add the ICD was because of RS. So if that is the case, tie the ICD to RS.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

No surprises there. The only lingering question is, should the Stealth Attack cool down be tied to Rending Shade and not across the board?

To be clear; if you spec for Rending Shade, your stealth attack has the 1s ICD.
If you didn’t spec for Rending Shade, stealth attack has no CD.

I personally have no problem with 1s ICD, but to make more people happy, I think keeping the ICD in Rending Shade is a good compromise.

Why should Rending Shade have a CD in the first place? It requires the attack to land for it to proc if it lands you have a CD in the form of Revealed.

Not sure what you’re talking about. As of right now, whether you spec for RS or not, stealth attack have a 1s ICD. Since the ICD and RS was introduced at the same time, it’s a safe assumption that the decision to add the ICD was because of RS. So if that is the case, tie the ICD to RS.

The ICD is completely separate from Rending Shade, just because it was in the same patch does not mean they are related in any way, and it would be completely pointless to put a 1 second ICD on Rending Shade due to the existence of Revealed, since your attack has to land to even proc Rending Shades boon strip.

And the 1sec cd on stealth attacks shouldn’t have ever been introduced there was no reason for it and no explanation given by Devs for its existence.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

No surprises there. The only lingering question is, should the Stealth Attack cool down be tied to Rending Shade and not across the board?

To be clear; if you spec for Rending Shade, your stealth attack has the 1s ICD.
If you didn’t spec for Rending Shade, stealth attack has no CD.

I personally have no problem with 1s ICD, but to make more people happy, I think keeping the ICD in Rending Shade is a good compromise.

Why should Rending Shade have a CD in the first place? It requires the attack to land for it to proc if it lands you have a CD in the form of Revealed.

Not sure what you’re talking about. As of right now, whether you spec for RS or not, stealth attack have a 1s ICD. Since the ICD and RS was introduced at the same time, it’s a safe assumption that the decision to add the ICD was because of RS. So if that is the case, tie the ICD to RS.

The ICD is completely separate from Rending Shade, just because it was in the same patch does not mean they are related in any way, and it would be completely pointless to put a 1 second ICD on Rending Shade due to the existence of Revealed, since your attack has to land to even proc Rending Shades boon strip.

If that’s what you choose to believe.

Without the ICD, the Thief can pop an Aegis then attack again to proc RS. As it stands, it prevents bad Thief from spamming stealth attack until it connects and the only real benefit in doing so after the patch is when the Thief is spec’d with RS.

Other stealth attacks gain no benefit.

And the 1sec cd on stealth attacks shouldn’t have ever been introduced there was no reason for it and no explanation given by Devs for its existence.

As I’ve already said, even if you don’t agree with the connection of the ICD to RS, as a compromise, only apply ICD when spec’d with RS.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

No surprises there. The only lingering question is, should the Stealth Attack cool down be tied to Rending Shade and not across the board?

To be clear; if you spec for Rending Shade, your stealth attack has the 1s ICD.
If you didn’t spec for Rending Shade, stealth attack has no CD.

I personally have no problem with 1s ICD, but to make more people happy, I think keeping the ICD in Rending Shade is a good compromise.

Why should Rending Shade have a CD in the first place? It requires the attack to land for it to proc if it lands you have a CD in the form of Revealed.

Not sure what you’re talking about. As of right now, whether you spec for RS or not, stealth attack have a 1s ICD. Since the ICD and RS was introduced at the same time, it’s a safe assumption that the decision to add the ICD was because of RS. So if that is the case, tie the ICD to RS.

The ICD is completely separate from Rending Shade, just because it was in the same patch does not mean they are related in any way, and it would be completely pointless to put a 1 second ICD on Rending Shade due to the existence of Revealed, since your attack has to land to even proc Rending Shades boon strip.

If that’s what you choose to believe.

Without the ICD, the Thief can pop an Aegis then attack again to proc RS. As it stands, it prevents bad Thief from spamming stealth attack until it connects and the only real benefit in doing so after the patch is when the Thief is spec’d with RS.

Other stealth attacks gain no benefit.

And the 1sec cd on stealth attacks shouldn’t have ever been introduced there was no reason for it and no explanation given by Devs for its existence.

As I’ve already said, even if you don’t agree with the connection of the ICD to RS, as a compromise, only apply ICD when spec’d with RS.

I do not agree rending sghade the reason because like EA , GI and a number of other traits they could have put the cooldown and RS itself.

If the thief wanted to rip Aegis and more boons he already could have before.

Stealth attack -> Aegis pop -> (precast) Stealth Attack again -> Steal/BT.

And he still can.

Non-stealth attack while stealthed -> Aegis pop -> (Precast Stealth attack) -> Steal/BT.

And it is still put on the revealed cooldown by this point. In essence, there’s really no point to the ICD if the target already has aegis and the thief isn’t stupid.

All the ICD did was pretty much raise the required proficiency of the thief to beat a DH when playing D/X and nerfed D/D while making it more difficult for the thief in general to deal with DH’s passive aegis trap, since Rending Shade will still get negated by the CC on steal forcing Aegis for the shade, which, of course, BT is supposed to set up the CC from BT to enable the damage.

At its best in most cases, RS still isn’t worth using unless your opponent plays with no Aegis. Depending on compositions, though, makes this trait too niche imho to warrant taking really anywhere.

If they were afraid of ripping two more boons every 4s then they would have put a higher cooldown on RS itself over the ICD on stealth attacks, since it’s still possible to do.

But if that implicit 4s CD possibility is considered fair, there’s no reason to not have just put it on the trait itself, considering the lack of ICD on stealth attacks wasn’t really ever a big deal.

Oh I should mention I play it in concert with bountiful theft. That way I steal boons every 20 seconds in addition to gaining stealth on steal. So I can steal, remove those boons, then attack for an additional boon steal on stealth attack.

It can be a toss up for DH, but for druid I think it is very effective to feed off their boons to both decrease their performance and increase your own.

DeceiverX.8361:

If the thief wanted to rip Aegis and more boons he already could have before.

Stealth attack -> Aegis pop -> (precast) Stealth Attack again -> Steal/BT.

And he still can.

Non-stealth attack while stealthed -> Aegis pop -> (Precast Stealth attack) -> Steal/BT.

And it is still put on the revealed cooldown by this point. In essence, there’s really no point to the ICD if the target already has aegis and the thief isn’t stupid.

Aegis was just a simplified example. Spamming stealth attacks also occurs against passive block, evade, etc.

At its best in most cases, RS still isn’t worth using unless your opponent plays with no Aegis. Depending on compositions, though, makes this trait too niche imho to warrant taking really anywhere.

There’s a second component to the trait, which procs against targets without boon.

If they were afraid of ripping two more boons every 4s then they would have put a higher cooldown on RS itself over the ICD on stealth attacks, since it’s still possible to do.

They can surely do that too, but that would make the trait unreliable thus becoming useless.

…and having the attack rarely land isn’t unreliable, particularly when considering the change to BV?

DeceiverX.8361:

…and having the attack rarely land isn’t unreliable, particularly when considering the change to BV?

That’s unrelated to RS and should be discussed in another topic.

Have you noticed if Rending shade has the same priorities when it cames to boon theft as BT?

I haven’t, but I will say that it doesn’t matter that much if you are consistently attacking.

I’ve stripped off resistance consistently with Rending Shade, which if they are running a 100% resistance build to avoid CC effects is devastating. At that point in a group fight just using Body Shot is bad news, and of course them taking condi from my pistol.

Well I in fact went to a core build with my p/d condition and find it works pretty well and very much so against some of the elite specs ike DH , DD , tempest and even druid.

The major problem is zerker warrior with resistance on. so I was thinking using a sigil of absorption but if rending shade enough coupled with Bountiful I might go that route. It hard to get interrupts in a p/d build.That said since there no DD the only cleanse is the stealth plus the little extra from trickster trait so I might have to juggle for that.

Yeah, with Core you do more damage but lose the sustain from dodging and EA—which is the strongest condition clear imo (until their opponent stops attacking). That is mainly why I run Daredevil on my build because the power creep under HoT forces thief to be more sustain anti-condi than before.

Well I have been using it in conjunction with Bountiful theft in a Core theif build using DA , SA and Trickery. I can manage to evade or cleanse most of the condition builds I face though some of the builds can still give trouble.

I really wanted to take DA as the boost to damage over DD significant and the trap traits integral to the builds main theme, that being high duration Immobs.

It does in fact make battling boon heavy classes much easier. This especially effective in a team where you strip boons away the enemy was counting on allowing either yourself or others to take advantage.

I still find the second component of the trait hard to acheive , that being the 10 percent mitigation when enemy has no boons.

It can in fact get to that resistance on the warrior with a bit of work. I am not sure yet that in current state it warrants GM status.

That is entirely true. I’ve noticed that even consistently attacking some people just reapply boons too quickly. Rending Shade does a good job of getting rid of “stacks duration” boons and a bad job of getting rid of “stacks intensity” boons. That means that if the person stacks even a little might the anti-boon protection won’t apply.

I’d suggest changing it to a buff like Escapist’s Absolution: i.e. for each boon you steal you get 2, 3, or 5 seconds of 10% damage reduction. Or you could change that to a damage buff for 2, 3, or 5 seconds depending on number of boons stolen. Either would be better than the current implementation.

On further reflection I’d like to say that Rending Shade is the best choice for most 1v1 against power builds.

Stealing protection, regeneration, aegis, fury, quickness, and resistance is huge. Power builds that lose that will do much less damage and take more damage. And many classes run some combination of the above boons when they run solo, if they can. Rending Shade functions best as a counter to the power meta that relies on boons to compensate for a tankier set of armor.

Against condition based builds the power of Rending Shade is less relevant because conditions don’t benefit from boons in the same way. Quickness and resistance are useful to a condition build, but bountiful theft will probably take care of that already, and your unlikely to find a condition build that pumps out massively the other boons—unless it is a hybrid of course. In that context the Cloaked in Shadow blind on gaining stealth is probably better—if you are in the SA spec line—for avoiding condition application and mitigation generally.

I must say I too am getting quite attached to this trait The difference it makes against Boon dependent enemies is significant. It has significantly boosted my ability to prevail against all professions , this using Core thief.

It is also quite satisfying to watch an enemies stack of boons vanish in short order while at the same time that person seemingly unaware they being peeled off.

So far I have only used it in my own Condition build. After I see what patch day brings , I am going to tinker with it in power.

If I’m not mistaken, you play P/D? The way I understand it, P/D has much better success with it since Sneak Attack is multi-hit and will let it dodge around Aegis or the trailing end of channeled blocks. Single-hit attacks find themselves with a bit more difficulty getting the proc aside from a player that casts BV after getting stealthed to make the attack unblockable.

Yes the build I am using it on is P/d and in conjunction with bountiful theft. I am pretty sure this what Saerni refers to as well.That said If I am using in an s/X build , (wvw) or staff with stealth it just might be possible to use in conjunction with absorption for an interrupt from stealth that could double up on the boon theft.

A lot will depend on the sacrifice in power by going the SA line. It does not affect condition as much when selecting that.

Added

Potential build premised on lots of boon theft (core build)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAsYl0MhynYhTw0Jw/EHIFEvBB4B9qG/P4zxN6BA-TFSBQBZUZBjUCqwHAgIVqlQ1f23+DA4EAkP9AAA-w

I like that build a lot.

My personal preference (core):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAsY6alsMhSnYhTw8Jw/EHDFEPALID+hEkj0/6+TBA-TVSBQB5T/AjUCqwHCw+2fIjKLEpSNAcCAWwRAIhq/QKgAHaB-w

My personal preference (HoT):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAsY6alsMhSnYhTw8Jw/ELDF2897/dA5CALgMg3QIIcEA-TVSBQBJU9n9t/gIVqxIlgZUZxCOCAK8hAkP9DA4EAQKgAHaB-w

With the ICD in effect, I find RS to under perform particularly for a GM trait. Against a good number of builds, it does almost nothing offensively to help the thief out. Against most builds, it is easily foiled by Aegis, dodge, other blocks, invulns, etc.

Basically everything has to go right for it to perform offensively. Its main advantage is the defensive damage reduction but IMO an SA thief needs damage boosters not damage reducers. SA doesn’t have a really good GM trait. Rejuv is OK but not spectacular. Cloaked is meh… occasionally useful but easy to skip over.

Without the ICD, RS would be a solid performer. If RS had a damage boost against players with boons, it would help SA be a more well rounded trait line as well.

Straegen.2938:

With the ICD in effect, I find RS to under perform particularly for a GM trait. Against a good number of builds, it does almost nothing offensively to help the thief out. Against most builds, it is easily foiled by Aegis, dodge, other blocks, invulns, etc.

Basically everything has to go right for it to perform offensively. Its main advantage is the defensive damage reduction but IMO an SA thief needs damage boosters not damage reducers. SA doesn’t have a really good GM trait. Rejuv is OK but not spectacular. Cloaked is meh… occasionally useful but easy to skip over.

Without the ICD, RS would be a solid performer. If RS had a damage boost against players with boons, it would help SA be a more well rounded trait line as well.

I do think the trait needs a bit more and in particular favor the idea of preventing boon application on the target for a number of seconds after a successful rending. Barring that an addition to damage of some sort per boon stolen perhaps or 1 5 percent damage mitigation per boon stolen for 5 seconds rather then the current 10 percent when no boons an enemy.

That said I really do not see an issue with the ICD on stealth attacks nor with Aegis/blocks dodges and the like. We deal with these in any case as thieves It does require more well thought out attacks but I do not see this as a problem.

There no doubt the ease of access to boons has added a whole lot of sustain to various builds along with the ability to deal out damage while still mainting high armor , toughness and vitality. It a little harder to calculate whether one just not better off throwing everything into more damage but by feel , I think this route works quite well,

The SA build I use for conditions has taken no hit to damage .

The SA build I am testing for power is still being evaluated but first impressions are no significant hit to damage and more survival.

babazhook.6805:

That said I really do not see an issue with the ICD on stealth attacks nor with Aegis/blocks dodges and the like. We deal with these in any case as thieves It does require more well thought out attacks but I do not see this as a problem.

Going stealth is typically an expensive proposition for a thief and misses for whatever reason on a stealth attack are costly. Priming RS with BV or using it with a stealth Steal and Bountiful make it better. However on its own that ICD will often see the trait go to waste against a good player that knows to block, dodge, etc a couple seconds after a thief goes stealth.

Hitting from stealth became far more skill and luck based with that ICD and this trait relies on that. Just makes it a had sell for me. Course I find SA to under perform compared to other trait lines these days but that is of course a personal opinion.

Straegen.2938:

babazhook.6805:

That said I really do not see an issue with the ICD on stealth attacks nor with Aegis/blocks dodges and the like. We deal with these in any case as thieves It does require more well thought out attacks but I do not see this as a problem.

Going stealth is typically an expensive proposition for a thief and misses for whatever reason on a stealth attack are costly. Priming RS with BV or using it with a stealth Steal and Bountiful make it better. However on its own that ICD will often see the trait go to waste against a good player that knows to block, dodge, etc a couple seconds after a thief goes stealth.

Hitting from stealth became far more skill and luck based with that ICD and this trait relies on that. Just makes it a had sell for me. Course I find SA to under perform compared to other trait lines these days but that is of course a personal opinion.

To play this efficiently you have to accept there will be misses and in fact bait the enemy to expend those dodges and blocks so that your RS becomes more effective. We do this already with power builds that do not use stealth and as theives we see many of those attacks blocked or evaded. There no real difference here as far as that goes outside what needed to enter stealth.

Again I have been using this mostly on a p/d condition build traited SA. Assume for the moment he takes Shadows rejuv instead. There no difference in the outcome of an attack. The enemy player is not going to increase his blocks or dodges just because I might be running RS. Futher to that you are going to enter stealth and attack far more often then he will be able to dodge or block you or no thief build would ever be able to kill an enemy player.

I assure you there no need to get Basi in this build. You are in and out of stealth so often a significant number of those attacks will succeed.

Many thieves still use steal and BT even though it can be avoided. RS is more effective then BT at boon removal.

More importantly, BT + RS is a lot of boon steal.

babazhook.6805:

Straegen.2938:

babazhook.6805:

That said I really do not see an issue with the ICD on stealth attacks nor with Aegis/blocks dodges and the like. We deal with these in any case as thieves It does require more well thought out attacks but I do not see this as a problem.

Going stealth is typically an expensive proposition for a thief and misses for whatever reason on a stealth attack are costly. Priming RS with BV or using it with a stealth Steal and Bountiful make it better. However on its own that ICD will often see the trait go to waste against a good player that knows to block, dodge, etc a couple seconds after a thief goes stealth.

Hitting from stealth became far more skill and luck based with that ICD and this trait relies on that. Just makes it a had sell for me. Course I find SA to under perform compared to other trait lines these days but that is of course a personal opinion.

To play this efficiently you have to accept there will be misses and in fact bait the enemy to expend those dodges and blocks so that your RS becomes more effective. We do this already with power builds that do not use stealth and as theives we see many of those attacks blocked or evaded. There no real difference here as far as that goes outside what needed to enter stealth.

Again I have been using this mostly on a p/d condition build traited SA. Assume for the moment he takes Shadows rejuv instead. There no difference in the outcome of an attack. The enemy player is not going to increase his blocks or dodges just because I might be running RS. Futher to that you are going to enter stealth and attack far more often then he will be able to dodge or block you or no thief build would ever be able to kill an enemy player.

I assure you there no need to get Basi in this build. You are in and out of stealth so often a significant number of those attacks will succeed.

Many thieves still use steal and BT even though it can be avoided. RS is more effective then BT at boon removal.

I think the big benefit that P/D has going for it is that because Sneak Attack is multi-hit, so random one-off negation effects or very short term immunities/remainder effects of immunities/blocks are less prone to causing a failed source of damage and a trait not doing anything.

Frankly, I’m surprised not to see builds like D/P SA/Tr/DrD running around. This would enable benefits of BT and a pretty consistent RS from OOC stealth/re-accessible stealth and HT for re-tries on a failure/negated attack, and would let Daredevil take ID and use SE for cleansing. If anything, I think this build would bring more value to +1 than DA.

It’s still not something which can justify the ICD on stealth attacks and changes to BV, however. D/D and S/D are just screwed in this sense.

DeceiverX.8361:

babazhook.6805:

Straegen.2938:

babazhook.6805:

That said I really do not see an issue with the ICD on stealth attacks nor with Aegis/blocks dodges and the like. We deal with these in any case as thieves It does require more well thought out attacks but I do not see this as a problem.

Going stealth is typically an expensive proposition for a thief and misses for whatever reason on a stealth attack are costly. Priming RS with BV or using it with a stealth Steal and Bountiful make it better. However on its own that ICD will often see the trait go to waste against a good player that knows to block, dodge, etc a couple seconds after a thief goes stealth.

Hitting from stealth became far more skill and luck based with that ICD and this trait relies on that. Just makes it a had sell for me. Course I find SA to under perform compared to other trait lines these days but that is of course a personal opinion.

To play this efficiently you have to accept there will be misses and in fact bait the enemy to expend those dodges and blocks so that your RS becomes more effective. We do this already with power builds that do not use stealth and as theives we see many of those attacks blocked or evaded. There no real difference here as far as that goes outside what needed to enter stealth.

Again I have been using this mostly on a p/d condition build traited SA. Assume for the moment he takes Shadows rejuv instead. There no difference in the outcome of an attack. The enemy player is not going to increase his blocks or dodges just because I might be running RS. Futher to that you are going to enter stealth and attack far more often then he will be able to dodge or block you or no thief build would ever be able to kill an enemy player.

I assure you there no need to get Basi in this build. You are in and out of stealth so often a significant number of those attacks will succeed.

Many thieves still use steal and BT even though it can be avoided. RS is more effective then BT at boon removal.

I think the big benefit that P/D has going for it is that because Sneak Attack is multi-hit, so random one-off negation effects or very short term immunities/remainder effects of immunities/blocks are less prone to causing a failed source of damage and a trait not doing anything.

Frankly, I’m surprised not to see builds like D/P SA/Tr/DrD running around. This would enable benefits of BT and a pretty consistent RS from OOC stealth/re-accessible stealth and HT for re-tries on a failure/negated attack, and would let Daredevil take ID and use SE for cleansing. If anything, I think this build would bring more value to +1 than DA.

It’s still not something which can justify the ICD on stealth attacks and changes to BV, however. D/D and S/D are just screwed in this sense.

I ran the SA/Tri/DrD for a while, you lose out quite a bit from Damage between Exposed Weakness and Muug, as well as the lockdown of Panick Strike which allows you to more easily stick to your target.

I can see it in a dueling environment/WvW being a bit too low-damage, (though ID should compensate for mug and more), but I do wonder about its applicability in sPvP since it’d steal 5 boons on engage and enable a 19% reduction in damage given a use of Dash, which is quite substantial when wanting to apply continuous pressure via AA, Headshot, and Shadow Shot.

For me any GM trait that requires setup better have a big payoff. 2 boons just isn’t a big payoff to me. Now if the boons were truly stolen as in copied in duration and stacks, that would peak my interest. As it is now we get one stack and base duration regardless of what is stolen. Nabbing a typical warriors might stacks would be a huge game changer.

Straegen.2938:

For me any GM trait that requires setup better have a big payoff. 2 boons just isn’t a big payoff to me. Now if the boons were truly stolen as in copied in duration and stacks, that would peak my interest. As it is now we get one stack and base duration regardless of what is stolen. Nabbing a typical warriors might stacks would be a huge game changer.

I wasn’t sure if it stole whole stacks like LS did. If it’s the case, then yea, it’s not worth doing, since most builds run many stacks of almost all boons, and the damage loss for maybe getting their prot and swiftness is about cancelled out.

Stacks of boons are not stolen, but the important ones are duration only.

This is a boon friendly meta. Lots of duration, lots of application, lots of reapplication. Rending Shade shouldn’t be a “hard counter” to those classes using a lot of boons—i.e. most of them. If it stole 25 stacks of might…just a little out of balance in our favor.

I think Rending Shade as it stands is an undervalued option. I think that it shines with fast, ranged, attacks. I think slower attacks like on sword don’t work as well.

I thought of an alternative that might please some people: make Rending Shade as following. Effectively turn rending shade into an invisible venom.

“Rending Shade: upon entering stealth your next attack will steal two boons from your target. Take 10% less damage from enemies without boons.”

There a disconnect here in that too many conflate an evade build with a stealth build.

We are not talking about evade builds. If you are taking the SA line it more than a little likely you are focusing on a stealth build. If you want to focus on evades and dodges it much less likely you would take this traitline.

So the starting point on any discussion regarding Rending shade ist his. I wish to take the SA line.

From that starting point examine each and every GM trait.

They Are Shadows rejuvenation, which gives one health and INI while stealthed. It is predicated on one being stealthed meaning that unless one camps stealth it not doing anything for you when you are not stealthed.

We have Cloaked In Shadow which releases blinding powder when one falls and applies blind on stealth.

Again this very situational and quite specific to certain weaponsets.

We have rending shade which steals boons everytime one attacks from stealth.

I have used this to steal regen, swiftness, protection, stability fury and quickness almost at will given how prevalent those boons now are. That regen and protection, just as example , offers me more sustain then does Shadows rejuvenation and works when I most need that sustain and then when visbile to an enemy.

I spoke previously to the difficulty I had with as condition build dealing with boon duration warriors and specifically those that loaded up long lasting resistance. I can now get at the resitance quickly with a combination of BT and RS and when that resistance stripped the health of that warrior plummets as in very many cases they used their healing signet and put it on cooldown to enable it.

To how the steal works and the inability to steal all might stacks that might be on a warrior. I already do sufficient damge. 25 might stacks would be nice but it not required and no matter what OTHER GM traits I take in any other line, I am not getting those 25 might stacks from them so the issue is moot.

With my current p/d build I generally steal with hidden thief. This steals me 3 boons and applies vigor to myself. I follow up with a sneak attack which steals two more boons and applies them to myself. The enemy has now lost 5 boons and has a boatload of conditions on them. I just can not see how "blind on steal’ or regaining health and INI while stealthed is a better outcome.

Now assume I have a power build using the s/d one I exampled above and face an enemy loaded with every boon including 25 stacks of might.

I use steal to generate an interrupt and steal 4 boons. In stealth from hidden thief I attack again and steal 2 more boons. The next boon due to be stolen is might. One LC and I have that 25 stacks of might as my own. Nothing spammed and the only ini spent on that single larcenous strike.

By the way my own P/d build is core using DA/SA/Trickery. As a high stealth build I do not think I benefit a lot from the Daredevil line. I am not dodging or evading a lot so do not benefit much from the on evade procs. Stealth and movement is my primary defense.

Out of GM line the traits do little good for my style of play. Hidden thief gives speed in stealth and I tend to steal all the swiftness I need as it out there in abundance. Impaling would only reveal me from stealth and bounding of no use.

I lose that extra dodge from the line and EAs condition cleanse but can deal with that in favor of getting more damage out of DA.

Babazhook, as to Cloaked in Shadow, I find that it works going up against multiple enemies. It also tends to be helpful against other thieves because the blind disrupts their burst and lets me use mine more easily.

So situationally I see the advantage against most boon based builds and alternatives being more viable against non-boon builds.

I’d argue that Daredevil is better because it frees up taking Shadow’s Embrace in SA. Also, UC is good for positioning in combat to reach striking distance for CnD, and makes you even harder to locate in stealth. I also use the Daredevil traitline and Bountiful Theft to maintain high dodge uptime which allows me to pressure with Caltrops as well.

Daredevil is actually two extra dodges. The first is the extra bar. The second is the 50 endurance on steal. So a daredevil can dodge, then steal, and have three full dodges available immediately.

The thing with blind on stealth is I tend not to stick close to an enemy even after I stealth. It generally an AA and shadowstrike away or move in stealth to range and AA.
It just not as practical for a ranged set IMHO.

DA gives me two extra poison on steal, weakness on poison, trappers respite , vuln and might on traps and a choice of Improv or Potent Poison. It is not unusual to have 10 stacks of might coupled with the enemy having 15 or more stacks of vuln all applied by my thief. I think this does my build much more then two extra dodges.

Needle trap is especially effective against mesmers as they tend to send all their clones at once your way whereby a single needle trap will take out multiples of them.

This is where the trappers runes come into play as they allow a stealth/trap on heal using withdraw. While that stealth short it time enough to shift positions to get off an AA sneak attack and if i do get that long Immob off the trap there time to get behind an enemy and use that autoattack. With RS this also means I can steal two boons at range each time I drop a trap (or heal) along with that bleed stack app. This still leaves plenty of INI for torment stacks off three and a CND stealth.

Yes there downsides as there lower condition cleanse and it can be vulnerable to stuns and immobs .

I certainly see why you would take DD line as I was using it myself in my build before the changes to RS and my desire to try it > I stuck with DD and dropped DA at first but found my DA core build just worked better for what my build was intended for.

This build is a true trappers build and not what the critics of the Ghost thief refer to as one in that it uses Shadowtrap as well along with those runes and needle trap. I can pretty well ensure shadowtrap triggered all the time and this gives an excellent port and a source of 2 more stealths for boon theft and AA.

It comes down to playstyle differences I suppose. Traps bring a lot more poison into the build and that makes DA much more appealing.

The blind is on gaining stealth, so it gives a blind every time I CnD off an opponent. Not always useful but do it often enough and it really cuts down what an enemy can do to you.

I’ve taken to running RS more often because I think it helps relatively more often. 10% damage reduction if the opponent doesn’t really use boons or alternatively lots of boons for me if they do.

Stealth typically follows two forms: setting up a big shot or escaping from one. Rejuvenation doesn’t really fit either of those two narratives. It basically allows a thief to reset a fight a bit faster.

Rending Shade is foiled somewhat easily which is my main complaint. Half the time when it does proc, the boons just pop right back on from Durability/Pack runes or some other passive trait. That said the 5% defensive buff is worth considering on its own particularly for glassier thieves. As I noted earlier it would be a very strong contender if that was 5% more damage since SA already has strong defense.

Cloaked in Shadow is a bit of a hidden gem itself. That blind is great for getting out after delivering a big shot and the stealth from falling is surprisingly easy to proc almost anywhere in WvW. I also routinely used it to trap players into chasing me off a drop off… they take damage and I get a free backstab for their efforts. As a GM trait it is a bit lackluster but given its competition, I would not rule it out. If D/D every gets some love, CiS can be a real winner.

Rendering shade is bad. Shadow Arts is bad. DA is better.

The problem is stealth attacks stop being optimal against better players. They’ll time AoEs, weapon-swap sigils, about face turns, defensive CDs, and the like to negate BS and even use BS attempts against us. This typically makes it better to wait (even letting stealth run out) and let them waste abilities before re-engaging with shadowshot. In doing so, a thief can counter some counter-play to BS but will almost completely negate the utility of rending shade by playing this way.

DA, on the other hand, has no such limitation. If running DA and we miss a BS, or opt not to use BS, we just lose a little damage. Shadow arts loses a lot of the use of rendering shade (the main point of taking that trait line in the current meta given how easy it is to interrupt/reveal/out damage the stealth rezzes). As a result, when compared to builds that use DA and rely on shadowshot, headshot, and auto-attacks, shadow arts and rendering shade fall behind against players who more easily counter BS.

rennlc.7346:

Rendering shade is bad. Shadow Arts is bad. DA is better.

The problem is stealth attacks stop being optimal against better players. They’ll time AoEs, weapon-swap sigils, about face turns, defensive CDs, and the like to negate BS and even use BS attempts against us. This typically makes it better to wait (even letting stealth run out) and let them waste abilities before re-engaging with shadowshot. In doing so, a thief can counter some counter-play to BS but will almost completely negate the utility of rending shade by playing this way.

DA, on the other hand, has no such limitation. If running DA and we miss a BS, or opt not to use BS, we just lose a little damage. Shadow arts loses a lot of the use of rendering shade (the main point of taking that trait line in the current meta given how easy it is to interrupt/reveal/out damage the stealth rezzes). As a result, when compared to builds that use DA and rely on shadowshot, headshot, and auto-attacks, shadow arts and rendering shade fall behind against players who more easily counter BS.

1> One does not have to give up DA to take th SA line.

2>The damage loss by dropping DA line is overstated. The single largest source of extra damage is exeutioner which only kicks in when enemy under 50 percent health. There are builds that generate plenty of damage without DA.

3>D/X is not the only weapon set available to the thief. BS only comes from a d/x set.

This is not and should not be about the d/p weaponset . It is about the utility of RS in various builds. As with any trait some are not as suited to every weaponset.

babazhook.6805:

1> One does not have to give up DA to take th SA line.

2>The damage loss by dropping DA line is overstated. The single largest source of extra damage is exeutioner which only kicks in when enemy under 50 percent health. There are builds that generate plenty of damage without DA.

3>D/X is not the only weapon set available to the thief. BS only comes from a d/x set.

This is not and should not be about the d/p weaponset . It is about the utility of RS in various builds. As with any trait some are not as suited to every weaponset.

To take SA without giving up Daredevil or Trickery (which are probably even more important than DA is), you do have to give up DA. If DA’s only benefit were executioner, then you’d be right and it would be overstated, but it’s not. Against high-sustain classes the 10% damage from Exposed Weakness may contribute more total damage throughout the course of a match than executioner. Some players won’t die (or die in a timely manner) without a panic strike proc. Not having lotus poison puts thieves at a severe disadvantage against thieves that do. Frame DA however you like. The sum of what it offers is still going to typically be greater than the sum of what SA offers.

One of the purposes of a forum is to take a dubious number of options and, through collective trial and error, determine and share what’s good, when, how, and why in a way that’s accessible to a greater number of people. Unfortunately, this inevitably involves criticizing some of the choices of others.

rennlc.7346:

babazhook.6805:

1> One does not have to give up DA to take th SA line.

2>The damage loss by dropping DA line is overstated. The single largest source of extra damage is exeutioner which only kicks in when enemy under 50 percent health. There are builds that generate plenty of damage without DA.

3>D/X is not the only weapon set available to the thief. BS only comes from a d/x set.

This is not and should not be about the d/p weaponset . It is about the utility of RS in various builds. As with any trait some are not as suited to every weaponset. Those tests will come.

To take SA without giving up Daredevil or Trickery (which are probably even more important than DA is), you do have to give up DA. If DA’s only benefit were executioner, then you’d be right and it would be overstated, but it’s not. Against high-sustain classes the 10% damage from Exposed Weakness may contribute more total damage throughout the course of a match than executioner. Some players won’t die (or die in a timely manner) without a panic strike proc. Not having lotus poison puts thieves at a severe disadvantage against thieves that do. Frame DA however you like. The sum of what it offers is still going to typically be greater than the sum of what SA offers.

One of the purposes of a forum is to take a dubious number of options and, through collective trial and error, determine and share what’s good, when, how, and why in a way that’s accessible to a greater number of people. Unfortunately, this inevitably involves criticizing some of the choices of others.

One of the purposes of a forum is to break down the fixation people have on the meta and in particular those who will not try an option , while contradicting those through that trial an experience who claim it will not work. We would not need a forum if we were all talking about ONE build.

I suggest you have not tried the builds either myself or the OP have spoken too so fail to understand how you can have arrived at your conclusions through “trial and error” especially given the fact rending shade is relatively new. In fact given we are the only voices I can recollect that have spoken to this trait on these boards, I highly doubt there has been a whole lot of trial and error going on.

In fact I am the one speaking of “trial and error” as I played with DD, DA in my own build previously and find this existing one more effective. I am reminded of my own early tests on Acro where I found it as an excellent traitline after the revamp with voices that never tried it claiming it as garbage.

My old P/d build used DA , DD and Trickery. Dropping DD In favor of SA and that RS makes it more effective. I know this because I have tried it for hours on end just as I played that older build for hours on end.

I Play 5 thieves, 4 of them power and this one as condition and assure you I do nt just posit builds “in theory” . I put them to the test as my own success/failure with a given build is the best measure I know of as to whether it effective for me. I do not rely on others claiming it can not work.

As far as those power builds go and to DA in particular. My original point stands, it is not needed for a power build. Acro just as example , offers more healing and damage then mug and exposed weakness combined along with stun breaks and condition cleanses that DA does not offer.

I have not yet put a power build using RS through extensive tests but I did have a staff build I used earlier that took staff mastery with SA for cleanses . Those tests will come.

Meta isn’t one build. It’s typically specific weapon sets, utilities, and core traits, such as short bow & D/P, shadowstep, PI, sleight of hand, and dash for Thief. Other aspects are more up to preference and situation, like taking thrill or flanking strike? Brawler’s tenacity, weakness on crit, or havoc mastery? Withdraw or channeled vigor? Improv or exectucioner? Which two utilities to team with shadowstep: Bandit’s defense, blinding powder, and/or signet of agility (even skills like inf signet and impairing daggers can have their moments)?

You suggest I haven’t tried the build and state you haven’t played much with it yourself. I say both of our individual experiences and lack thereof are inconsequential because we’re not talking about just the two of us. If we’re actually going to talk about play styles and builds that will, after some learning, tend to work better for the majority of players, the majority of the time, and regardless of whether one’s opponents are experienced or extremely new, then this is going to typically be a conversation about the core aspects of what other players have been successfully using – a.k.a. the meta. In our class’s case, that’s not SA.

Meta builds are the outcome of crowd-sourced responses to a big question we generally have: “What are builds I should learn and play if I want to both have fun playing and win as much as possible?” Meta builds don’t specifically address the fun factor (unless you define fun as winning) but they do reflect what other players win more frequently over longer periods of time with. Determining a meta through all of our choices is the closest thing we have to a real scientific process and it seems you’re ignoring what it has to offer. You dislike what can be used to help others and yourself win. Why?

already ripping boons for months..
using interupt sigel also to rip another 1 when using headshot + steal + RS + s/d

np i enjoy it

rennlc.7346:

Meta isn’t one build. It’s typically specific weapon sets, utilities, and core traits, such as short bow & D/P, shadowstep, PI, sleight of hand, and dash for Thief. Other aspects are more up to preference and situation, like taking thrill or flanking strike? Brawler’s tenacity, weakness on crit, or havoc mastery? Withdraw or channeled vigor? Improv or exectucioner? Which two utilities to team with shadowstep: Bandit’s defense, blinding powder, and/or signet of agility (even skills like inf signet and impairing daggers can have their moments)?

You suggest I haven’t tried the build and state you haven’t played much with it yourself. I say both of our individual experiences and lack thereof are inconsequential because we’re not talking about just the two of us. If we’re actually going to talk about play styles and builds that will, after some learning, tend to work better for the majority of players, the majority of the time, and regardless of whether one’s opponents are experienced or extremely new, then this is going to typically be a conversation about the core aspects of what other players have been successfully using – a.k.a. the meta. In our class’s case, that’s not SA.

Meta builds are the outcome of crowd-sourced responses to a big question we generally have: “What are builds I should learn and play if I want to both have fun playing and win as much as possible?” Meta builds don’t specifically address the fun factor (unless you define fun as winning) but they do reflect what other players win more frequently over longer periods of time with. Determining a meta through all of our choices is the closest thing we have to a real scientific process and it seems you’re ignoring what it has to offer.

Yes and no. While I don’t think RS or SA is a particularly good way to go right now generally speaking (It works with P/x stealth due to aforementioned multi-hit synergy working with the ICD and short-term negation), stating that SA isn’t good because it’s not in the meta and then saying the meta is determined by crowdsourced investigation is slightly contradictory; in order for a healthy meta to be established, someone needs to break the mold for whatever reason or lack thereof and create a new optimum case. The better-designed and balanced the game is, the more difficult it is to find those optima, and thus there is more fluctuation and fluidity in between any given match.

The claim worth noting here is that GW2’s profession situation right now isn’t designed well since it fails to abide by the above principle. You see some powerful or potentially-powerful mixtures on a few select builds, but typically speaking said builds are either not good enough at high skill tiers (which then effect the low ones) and the meta remains unchanged, or simply don’t have enough diversity to really take in any other build except some edge case. It’s typically not too difficult to see where and why things may work or may not work, and typically weaknesses or strengths of a build are overly build-biased and contextual to other builds rather than what “could be” on the battlefield.

rennlc.7346:

Meta isn’t one build. It’s typically specific weapon sets, utilities, and core traits, such as short bow & D/P, shadowstep, PI, sleight of hand, and dash for Thief. Other aspects are more up to preference and situation, like taking thrill or flanking strike? Brawler’s tenacity, weakness on crit, or havoc mastery? Withdraw or channeled vigor? Improv or exectucioner? Which two utilities to team with shadowstep: Bandit’s defense, blinding powder, and/or signet of agility (even skills like inf signet and impairing daggers can have their moments)?

You suggest I haven’t tried the build and state you haven’t played much with it yourself. I say both of our individual experiences and lack thereof are inconsequential because we’re not talking about just the two of us. If we’re actually going to talk about play styles and builds that will, after some learning, tend to work better for the majority of players, the majority of the time, and regardless of whether one’s opponents are experienced or extremely new, then this is going to typically be a conversation about the core aspects of what other players have been successfully using – a.k.a. the meta. In our class’s case, that’s not SA.

Meta builds are the outcome of crowd-sourced responses to a big question we generally have: “What are builds I should learn and play if I want to both have fun playing and win as much as possible?” Meta builds don’t specifically address the fun factor (unless you define fun as winning) but they do reflect what other players win more frequently over longer periods of time with. Determining a meta through all of our choices is the closest thing we have to a real scientific process and it seems you’re ignoring what it has to offer. You dislike what can be used to help others and yourself win. Why?

I did not state I did not play the build myself. I stated I tested the p/d build and have compared it to my past P/d build. P/d Condition centers around gaining stealth so as to use the sneak attack and stack bleeds. It ideally suited to test that trait.

This trait was released July 26th. Shortly after that I started playing with it in various p/d type builds. The OP post discussing his obervations was made Sept 30th. I had been tinkering and testing variations to that point and concurred with the OPS observations. Since that OPs post I have continued to play this build hours a night refining and testing outcomes. My observations are based on experience, unlike yours which are based on following the meta .

I later stated I did not try it yet EXTENSIVELY on a power build and that I would in due course. I offered up a build I might try in the future to see if it could work with power. You are not reading that because you remain fixated on d/p and the meta.

I have found P/d is more effective with this trait. It still might need a tweak to make it more useful for other sets but P/d can do well by it. If YOU have not tried it, you can not comment on whether or not it effective. If you do not play p/d or do not care to, you can not make a comment as to whether this works with that set.

DeceiverX.8361:

Yes and no. While I don’t think RS or SA is a particularly good way to go right now generally speaking (It works with P/x stealth due to aforementioned multi-hit synergy working with the ICD and short-term negation), stating that SA isn’t good because it’s not in the meta and then saying the meta is determined by crowdsourced investigation is slightly contradictory; in order for a healthy meta to be established, someone needs to break the mold for whatever reason or lack thereof and create a new optimum case. The better-designed and balanced the game is, the more difficult it is to find those optima, and thus there is more fluctuation and fluidity in between any given match.

Hi, Deceiver. What I had originally said was SA wasn’t good because what it offered was generally less than what DA offered (which, in my opinion, is the weakest of the meta trait lines). It’s not just bad because it’s not meta; it’s bad because it’s generally worse than what is currently considered meta. I did not make this determination as lightly (nor as blindly) as you’re perceiving from a post where I tried to express my argument in a different a way.

Otherwise, I agree with what you say in principle. In any competitive area there needs to be some sort of balance between practicing what’s been better established as what works and experimentation. In GW2, this would specifically be playing a current meta build vs. playing currently non-meta builds. Nonetheless, look at how many non-meta builds are typically posted and shared on this forum. If this is reflective of what a lot of us are doing with our time, we’re probably spending too much time experimenting.

Ultimately, that’s what the whole issue of “What should I play?” is going to become – it’s going to become a matter of economy/efficiency. Are hours of non-meta builds going to be helpful for goals like having fun, winning, etc.? Absolutely. But are they going to be as helpful as using that same time to learn more of the nuances of the current meta? Only for those who really like novelty through experimentation and those who uncover something new and better are going to get more out of focusing on the non-meta. For most of us, especially those who value winning and making good plays more than the joys of experimentation, we’d be better off trusting that the meta typically gets many more things right than wrong.

babazhook.6805:

I have found P/d is more effective with this trait. It still might need a tweak to make it more useful for other sets but P/d can do well by it. If YOU have not tried it, you can not comment on whether or not it effective. If you do not play p/d or do not care to, you can not make a comment as to whether this works with that set.

If you’re finding success in duels and WvW roaming against certain classes or other niche situations like that, cool! Way to make use of a newer trait.

My question for you is about how RS should be labelled. Should it be considered a “good” trait because it can improve a more situational build like P/D? Or should it be labelled a “bad” trait because it’s usefulness is so situational whereas comparatively the meta traits are not?

For the sake of communicating a simpler, more accurate consensus opinion to the developers, I think we should be labeling something like RS as bad.