Guild Wars 2

Hello
Now today in WvWvW and also Dungeons i have see that there is no place in the current Trinity Meta (Warrior,Guardian;Necro)for the thiefs.Why u should play thief? U cant really help ur group nor u can stand long in larger fights.It is sad do say this but this class,the Thief is nearly Useless current. I have roll now after more than a year a warrior and hell they rock kitten in WvWvW and lol they move faster than a thief =P

Thief is a solo class.

Thief could use some more usefulness in dungeons, currently they’re at the bottom of the list when it comes to group PvE. However, in PvP, Thieves are just fine. Learn to play.

Well…blinds. Learn to use them and love them. It will let you party facetank mobs in some instances, pistol offhand and the smokefield which also reflects projectiles and is on a lower cooldownthen the guardian (even if they trai for it? I dont know the numbers in my head). Also, thief brings the highest single target DPS the game has to offer if done right. Stealth is another thing that most people suddenly forgot when the thief’s viability is quesstioned SR and Blindingpowder + SB and a blinding field are easy ways to gain steath and no class alone comes even close.

In WvW we get the blood of the other borderlands, the dollies, and noone can stop you from doing so. Easy ways to pass large group off enemies/build/repair/assualt use your imagination. And for not being useful in zerg fights I say bah. Pressuring their backline is risky but is certainly rewarding and not useless at all. And dont forget we have the most spammable blastfinisher in game. We may lack boons to give to others but we have some group utility in that matter (boons on steal). Oh and ripping boons of like noone else can. Always nice to take that stability and watch the person you stole it from bounce around.

This is just the first things that pop out of my head when I think about thief and groups (forgot stealth stomps) there’s more I could add and others but it’s getting late and I’m still not finished with my paper.

Turophile.4028:

Well…blinds. Learn to use them and love them. It will let you party facetank mobs in some instances, pistol offhand and the smokefield which also reflects projectiles and is on a lower cooldownthen the guardian (even if they trai for it? I dont know the numbers in my head). Also, thief brings the highest single target DPS the game has to offer if done right. Stealth is another thing that most people suddenly forgot when the thief’s viability is quesstioned SR and Blindingpowder + SB and a blinding field are easy ways to gain steath and no class alone comes even close.

In WvW we get the blood of the other borderlands, the dollies, and noone can stop you from doing so. Easy ways to pass large group off enemies/build/repair/assualt use your imagination. And for not being useful in zerg fights I say bah. Pressuring their backline is risky but is certainly rewarding and not useless at all. And dont forget we have the most spammable blastfinisher in game. We may lack boons to give to others but we have some group utility in that matter (boons on steal). Oh and ripping boons of like noone else can. Always nice to take that stability and watch the person you stole it from bounce around.

This is just the first things that pop out of my head when I think about thief and groups (forgot stealth stomps) there’s more I could add and others but it’s getting late and I’m still not finished with my paper.

smokescreen blocks projectiles, but doesn’t reflect.

Thief can’t and never could do frontline damage tanking.. And to be honest, Thief not being able to do something another class does makes up a lot of the whining I see on these forums. “Thief can’t take frontline damage and still deal out decent damage like a warrior. Thief can’t do as much AoE damage like a Necro. Thief can’t support like a Guardian”.

Let’s be clear here: the Thief is not a Warrior. Thief is not a Necromancer. Thief is not a Guardian. And while we’re at it, it’s not any of the other classes either. That’s not the class design. It’s a thief, rogue, assassin, whatever you want to call it.

I’ve played Warrior since I started this game last year, but I finished my thief a few months ago and have been playing it almost exclusively in WvW when I’m not with my guild on WvW nights when I need to do a different job. I roamed on my Warrior way back when, but since my axe build got nerfed, it hasn’t felt the same since, so I switched to thief roaming once I finished it. It’s startling how much more powerful I feel than on my Warrior.

In massive zergs, the Thief is not a great choice. But was it ever? No. It’s fragile and doesn’t have great AoE. But again, the class design hasn’t changed. If you want sturdiness, AoE, or support, you should’ve picked a different class in the first place.

However, almost no other class augments the power of a small group as much as a good thief does, maybe debatable against Guardian or an aura-share Ele. With the distractions of other players around, a backstab power thief can easily do its job and dance around eliminating targets. A great example of that is what Mugi does in his small groups. By the very nature of stealth, either your opponent ignores your teammates and takes more pressure from them to try and find you, or you pass in and out of sight killing people. That’s incredibly powerful, and even if insta-kill Haste+Mug → CnD → Backstab → Heartseekers has been nerfed, your kill potential may be even higher without you blowing all your cooldowns in one go. You must be patient.

I’m not gonna argue about ease of use. Warrior isn’t a hard class to figure out. I still very much enjoy the “screw your gimmicks, I’ll chop you with my axe” style and I will likely never fully put my Warrior down, but as far as potential scaling with experience goes, a Thief’s so much higher than a Warrior’s.

In WvW group play, small group or peripheral target elimination is the “role” of the thief. In a medium-sized group (~15-20), get around the hammer train, take the ranged damage dealers out of the fight, and survive. I won’t say it’s the easiest job, but it’s very powerful in the right hands. Any larger groups than that and you’re looking at a different class philosophy, and it shouldn’t be something you expected from an assassin archetype.

TL;DR: In a good group, the role of a thief hasn’t changed. People are just looking in the wrong places for inspiration.

Ranger is also a rogue class but still better viable in frontline and he is a range class but can also fight melee. its all right what you say but i have stopped to think in archetypes.Thiefs are also not really assasins they are thiefs ;-) In Guild Wars 2 there isn’t a Trinity and its not ok that a class is banned from a part of the game.
Like Grebcol say in a other thread,guilds searching most for Warriors,Necros and Guardians,and not only one looking for thief,.i think that says all that something is wrong in the design here.(Same problem also with dungeons)

I have played thief since launch and must say this is not true in any way (the original thread, not the responses). I run dungeons with and without my guild all of the time, and there are things, as mentioned before, that a thief brings which no one else can. Shadowstep, blind, stealth, a permanent poison. And don’t forget the damage. OH THE DAMAGE! I am hit 11k crits on dungeon bosses with heart seeker. I average 1.8k on sb 1, and 4-6k on cluster bomb. I also tick 160 on my poison with no condition traits/gear. There is so much a thief can offer, just it takes skill to do. Once you find it, it becomes a cake walk and you can compete with any other class, and it becomes a matter of skill, not what class you are playing. Every class has a place in this game, and I love how the person above me put it, THIEF IS NOT ANY OTHER CLASS! However, I do wish that scorpion wore could pull allies as well as enemies. That would be awesome, and incredibly helpful. The ability to hide in a tower (because thieves are amazing at that) and then just pull a mesmer up to you so he can port in everyone else. It would b a nice utility.

Sierras
yeah thats true but a warrior doing a same amount of damage and he brings better group stuff as a thief and can tank.

I’d love to have more group support.

But aside from high DPS, we have very little to offer to a group. And Warriors (and to a lesser extent, all other classes) bring similar DPS with no danger of being instant-gibbed as commonly happens to glass-cannon Thieves.

Shadowscamp.8065:

TL;DR: In a good group, the role of a thief hasn’t changed. People are just looking in the wrong places for inspiration.

I guess you are right. Playing one-trick-ponies isn’t my thing. I am not the type of player who can see past the uselessness of this weak profession and just purely enjoy the original type of combat it provides.

However thieves, being a solo profession, is getting pigeonholed back into x/d and sooner or later those will get nerfed. As of now thieves suck in solo because its way easier to damage players with other professions.

Right now the thief is as close to a free kill as anet can make it in my eyes. It used to be fun because I could support the party and myself through damage and damaging conditions, however after back-to-back nerfs to damage and utility, the survivability is now getting hit and I don’t want to have to adapt for the umpteenth time.

In fact I could relate this to a passionate relationship between two people. Most of the time after the couple knows each other enough, they become sober from the intoxicating joy of their first few months. They become comfortable with each other and start exhibiting the bad habits of the time before they got together. These bad habits begin to irritate the other and escalates until one of them flips the other the bird and walks out.

As a thief, I am tired of anet’s and the bleeding hearts’ crap so I am getting out of this profession. They won and as a prize they made the game more unpolished.

Carmela.8756:

Ranger is also a rogue class but still better viable in frontline and he is a range class but can also fight melee. its all right what you say but i have stopped to think in archetypes.Thiefs are also not really assasins they are thiefs ;-) In Guild Wars 2 there isn’t a Trinity and its not ok that a class is banned from a part of the game.
Like Grebcol say in a other thread,guilds searching most for Warriors,Necros and Guardians,and not only one looking for thief,.i think that says all that something is wrong in the design here.(Same problem also with dungeons)

Ranger is not at all viable in the frontline. Just as fragile as thief if he wants to do any damage to a zerg yet has no stealth. You’ll find none of them in a WvW guild’s ideal comp, not in this meta. They are in fact even less “wanted” in a guild group because a Thief does a specific job better. Guilds sometimes advertise for 1 “good” thief, either for scouting or to place a poison field on the enemy zerg, or even as a spammable blast finisher.

Most rangers you find running in a big group are random players that a group picked up. A “serious” guild group rarely has one or wants one.

So for a run-down of a “serious” balanced medium-sized guild comp in the meta right now running builds (from what I’ve seen):
3-4 Full Healing Guardians
3-4 Hammer Warriors (builds vary)
3-4 Power Well Necromancers
2-3 Staff Elementalists
1-2 Mesmers for veils + null fields
1-2 Engineers maybe for spammable conditions in smaller fights
1 Thief for scouting

Obviously, these will vary, and you’ll run heavy in one class or another, but that’s generally the current meta.

You’ll not find any of these classes “banned” from any game mode. I doubt you meant that literally, but the Thief no doubt has more of a defined role than a Ranger, who you’ll find usually sits far back and uses Barrage. Powermancers do more AoE damage with Wells and Eles have better combo fields. Does that mean you can’t play a ranger? Obviously, no. The role just isn’t as well-defined in a large WvW group. You can make it work for yourself, just like you can make a thief work. Thief shortbow is tagging made easy.

You can’t separate a “class” system and “archetypes”. ANet diluted it with self-heals and “no trinity”, but don’t be fooled. Classes are designed to be different and better at some things than others. That’s the appeal.

After having just really tried my thief out in PvP for the first time, I’ll tell you what the thief meta is…

kitten ed good players.

I mean, I was absolutely useless even against a very new player on a warrior. He smoked me. And I know it is 99% because of my own lack of skill and experience.

When I see those videos of thieves in WvW killing 1v3s, I am now in awe.

Qaelyn.7612:

After having just really tried my thief out in PvP for the first time, I’ll tell you what the thief meta is…

kitten ed good players.

I mean, I was absolutely useless even against a very new player on a warrior. He smoked me. And I know it is 99% because of my own lack of skill and experience.

When I see those videos of thieves in WvW killing 1v3s, I am now in awe.

Thief used to be considered a faceroll class (plenty bads still think it is). I hate nerfs but they’ve allowed people finally giving credit to good thieves.

I tried two different builds and got my butt kicked by a guy who’s been playing GW2 for 2 weeks and whose warrior is I think level 8.

It was so bad I’m considering just shelving the character for a few months as I doubt I could come up with any build where I could be decent at my current skill level. I wanted this char for sneaking around in WvW but unless there’s something with a much lower learning curve, well, I’m not ready.

Zacchary.6183:

-Snip-

While I do agree that it’d be more fun to see more builds viable-ish, there are currently two quite good ones. Full Dire P/D and some form of backstab. I hate D/P, but I love D/D. I started playing with P/D as my second roaming build, and it’s almost invincible, if somewhat low on damage output. I just feel so powerful on my thief. You can’t get overwhelmed by multiple “bad” players using skills at random like you can on a Warrior. If they’re inexperienced, you can take all of them down almost with impunity. I’m mostly a solo player myself, and I just don’t see the Thief being weak, playing mostly with D/D right now.

It’s sad for S/X since that’s what I started playing first, but maybe they’ll start working on Sword dual skills after the patch?

I doubt it. Anet’s track record isn’t promising.

Shadowscamp, may I ask what your build is? I’m looking for something newbie-friendly for scouting/annoyance in WvW, with maybe some light PvE stuff as well. I doubt I’ll ever be able to actually kill anyone but not immediately dying would be nice.

D/P works great now and it’ll still be great after the patch. Sword builds are going to be quite a bit worse, mainhand pistol is still crap for everything besides trolling imo.

Qaelyn.7612:

Shadowscamp, may I ask what your build is? I’m looking for something newbie-friendly for scouting/annoyance in WvW, with maybe some light PvE stuff as well. I doubt I’ll ever be able to actually kill anyone but not immediately dying would be nice.

I’m assuming you’re asking about P/D since D/D backstab is pretty squish. But I run basically the same build of the guy who plays Laela Blackbird on Youtube. Uh… I run.. This: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAqY4YlYmKN3eS6E9JFB3Dna0m6p4rjVXQ/BuC-j0xAouBRTBGEdmsIas1sioxqZwUsER1eEMpAgZOA-w

The gear’s pretty new-gear friendly. I didn’t use any ascended things or anything, and I believe the Sigils of Agony do stack, though if someone has tested otherwise, then you could take a Sigil of Bursting as well.

That’s my build for WvW, but you can switch out some things depending on preference for PvE. Caltrops are a good utility for PvE instead of Skale Venom.

You get a lot of dodges, stealth, and high defense. The survivability is incredible. I think it’s good practice to get your eye in for CnD. If you want to kill people, though, be sure to use Skale Venom on Sneak Attack out of stealth and don’t be afraid to use #3, though also don’t over-use it or else you’ll run out of initiative.

Very interesting build, different from what I’ve seen before. Thanks!

Would you be willing to do me a favor and explain what sorts of attack sequences you use, when you use key skills etc? This is what I have a lot of troubler with as a newbie.. I spec out a new build, and then I get out there and have no idea what to do. Anything, even brief, would be useful.

Qaelyn.7612:

Very interesting build, different from what I’ve seen before. Thanks!

Would you be willing to do me a favor and explain what sorts of attack sequences you use, when you use key skills etc? This is what I have a lot of troubler with as a newbie.. I spec out a new build, and then I get out there and have no idea what to do. Anything, even brief, would be useful.

Uhm.. Pre-cast CnD and use Steal mid-cast. Unless they dodge, it’s a good initiate. Then stay close-ish to them and use Sneak Attack (Pistol 1 from stealth) with Skale Venom. Then once that’s done, use 3 on them for the Torment. It’s a decent damage spike. That’s basically the rotation. 5 → 1 → 3. 2 and 4 aren’t very useful. Caltrops on dodge are very nice for kiting and continuing your damage.

Also, I’d recommend learning to quick-reverse camera to Withdraw forward. Very useful tool.

I have to agree with the OP, there just isn’t build diversity with thief.
Condition builds (are lackluster imo fun for awhile but ive got money to throw at it)
backstab builds (if you havent tried it you dont know GC)
Mobility build (potentially nerfed into the ground)

There is no survivability there… utilities basically amount to deception and an occasional trick or signet. Venoms and Traps need to be reworked. Compare Ranger trap traits to thieves and you’ll get a general idea. Venomous Aura, 30 point skill, with the smallest range of any group ‘buff’… Broken kitten excuse for an elite venom.

Thief wont be completely broken in a month but lets face it. If you don’t stealth and carry a SB back up then you’re goin solo

Shadowscamp.8065:

Zacchary.6183:

-Snip-

While I do agree that it’d be more fun to see more builds viable-ish, there are currently two quite good ones. Full Dire P/D and some form of backstab. I hate D/P, but I love D/D. I started playing with P/D as my second roaming build, and it’s almost invincible, if somewhat low on damage output. I just feel so powerful on my thief. You can’t get overwhelmed by multiple "bad" players using skills at random like you can on a Warrior. If they’re inexperienced, you can take all of them down almost with impunity. I’m mostly a solo player myself, and I just don’t see the Thief being weak, playing mostly with D/D right now.

It’s sad for S/X since that’s what I started playing first, but maybe they’ll start working on Sword dual skills after the patch?

Thats the thing though the thief in itself is not very strong its only due to the incompetence of bad players the thief appears to be good. Its when you come across people who know there class and are built to duel/skirmish that you realize the thief isn’t in a great place and you really have to outplay them to win.

In such a meta u will die as a thief specially in WvWvW
And this since launch xD

@sierras look at the damage lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCqooTJYVxY

Most of the Top guilds doesnt want thiefs because they have no good defence and group stuff this is a fact.

Zacchary.6183:

…
They won and as a prize they made the game more unpolished.

Polished in their eyes, until another way of cries.

In WvW as a d/d thief it is incredibly easy to just sit near the back of a group, pick someone off, and either move onto the next target or kite away (many times with people wasting time chasing you) and then simply re-engage. Not to mention stealth rezzing, group stealth with black power + cluster bomb, stealth stomping downed that other teammates couldn’t dream of stomping, all in addition to being instant death to any back liner in the right situation. If you’re somewhat competent it’s insanely easy to kill and survive consistently. And that’s just for group play. Just grow a brain..

Qaelyn.7612:

Very interesting build, different from what I’ve seen before. Thanks!

Would you be willing to do me a favor and explain what sorts of attack sequences you use, when you use key skills etc? This is what I have a lot of troubler with as a newbie.. I spec out a new build, and then I get out there and have no idea what to do. Anything, even brief, would be useful.

hey
p/d builds

beginner- 0,0,30,20,20
mediocre – 15,0,30,15,10 = add poison and weakness conditions to cover your bleed and torment
hardcore – 20,0,30,0,20 or 20,0,30,20,0 = venom cd trait and might on venom but less mobility
extreme – 30,0,30,10,0 or 30,0,30,0,10 = 1 more venom tick (or immobilize for 4 seconds ) but less initiative and mobility and hits hard with 2 venom

the harder the build more cnd and stealth needed
try to get to 2k condition dmg with sigile of corruption off hand

here are some useful combos

1. cnd+steal→sneak attack=> 5 bleed stacks
2. cnd+steal→dodge (calatrops)→sneak attack => 8 beeld stacks+cripple
3. cnd+dodge+dodge+sneak attack => 11-12 bleed stacks cripple
4. cnddodge+sneak attack+shadow strike+steal+shadow strike=>7-8 bleeds+cripple +4-7 torment stacks – i use it after my target is 50% hp or lower to finish

cnd+dodge your enemy wont know where you end the dodge

try to use venom after 2-3 sneak attack to let your enemy uses his conditions clear so the venom will tick longer
try active the venom while in stealth so he wont see it on your name plate

sometimes dont go for sneak attack and use another cnd to confuse your enemy and let him use dodge to be easy pick

i love the combo of cnd+dodge on my face of my enemy as he dont know which way i dodge and he usually stand 2-3 seconds in the calatrops ending with 3-4 bleed stacks and cripple

learn to use withdraw forward → left mouse key+turn camera 180 and withdraw and turn back camera with right mouse key= use bind key

and for the ppl who said there is no place for thief in a group
here is movie demonstrate few things and also try to advertise the p/p thief in group fight

1. huge burst dmg frontline with dagger storm – better than any other profession – 3-5k dmg to 5-15 enemies also bleed and cripple =omg!. warrior as u see do 1-2k dmg but can stay longer
2. fast backline finisher better than any other profession – search for necros and eles
3. aoe dmg with just 1 unload and ricochet – 4-7k so triple it with 3 unlouads…= nice!
4. and think of SB with clusterbomb – 3-5k aoe dmg

we can spam fast burst which can do 10-20k dmg and get the hell out to regen while other profession can stay in the fight but do less dmg so basically the dps of the thief > or = the Sdps of the heavies.
this is the tactics of any other group fight. the heavies are the Infantry (jar head) the back line is the Artillery and we thieves are the Special Forces

you can do this also with d/d
so basically know you limits and learn to play
but still groups will want 1-2 thieves because heavy armor need to soak all the enemy burst dmg for the backline to burst on them = this is the game

fodem.2713:

I dare you to find 1 single class that a thief can easily kill…

I mean

Guardian >> thief
Mesmers >> guardiãn, warriors
Necro >> guardian, engies
Eles >> Mesmers
Engies >> thief / Mesmers
Ranger >> thief, necros
Warrior >> thief , necros, rangers, eles

Who the thief counter anyway ? Also, why the hell should all the classes counter thief ?

Lets please forget about skill play… A good player can beat any class, lets think on a general base line, what class is the best target for thieves ?

A thief.

I don’t have a problem finding success in solo/team Q with a thief

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2rf96hc&s=5#.Uo3OC8SURow

how to play a thief in current meta:
click log off
hit create
make warrior
???
profit

jokes aside: condi/bunker meta needs to go, thieves are just collateral dmg… heh
as for pve: wtb more group utility and less condi/CC spam comming from mobs

Turophile.4028:

Also, thief brings the highest single target DPS the game has to offer if done right.

Don’t you mean Greatsword warrior?

messiah.1908:

p/d builds

beginner- 0,0,30,20,20
mediocre – 15,0,30,15,10 = add poison and weakness conditions to cover your bleed and torment
hardcore – 20,0,30,0,20 or 20,0,30,20,0 = venom cd trait and might on venom but less mobility
extreme – 30,0,30,10,0 or 30,0,30,0,10 = 1 more venom tick (or immobilize for 4 seconds ) but less initiative and mobility and hits hard with 2 venom

Thanks for the reply. What actual trait skills (roman numerals) do you use with these? Gear type? Second weapon set in addition to PD?

Doxie.4037:

Turophile.4028:

Also, thief brings the highest single target DPS the game has to offer if done right.

Don’t you mean Greatsword warrior?

this is funny a pure greatsword warrior is barely above necros while axe/mace+gs still ties for 4th place with s/wh ranger

Clumsy.6257:

Doxie.4037:

Turophile.4028:

Also, thief brings the highest single target DPS the game has to offer if done right.

Don’t you mean Greatsword warrior?

this is funny a pure greatsword warrior is barely above necros while axe/mace+gs still ties for 4th place with s/wh ranger

I am doing it wrong then. I see greatsword warriors do more in a single hundred blades than I do in a long time. When I see a GS warrior drop 27-30k (which is also aoe, although not what we are talking about) damage on a mob in one hundred blades cast, followed by swings for 4-5k crits on autoattacks I really feel left behind. I am nowhere near that as a thief. What is the single target dps max based on? D/D and full signets? S/P?

Doxie.4037:

Clumsy.6257:

Doxie.4037:

Turophile.4028:

Also, thief brings the highest single target DPS the game has to offer if done right.

Don’t you mean Greatsword warrior?

this is funny a pure greatsword warrior is barely above necros while axe/mace+gs still ties for 4th place with s/wh ranger

I am doing it wrong then. I see greatsword warriors do more in a single hundred blades than I do in a long time. When I see a GS warrior drop 27-30k (which is also aoe, although not what we are talking about) damage on a mob in one hundred blades cast, followed by swings for 4-5k crits on autoattacks I really feel left behind. I am nowhere near that as a thief. What is the single target dps max based on? D/D and full signets? S/P?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dTmq9GPN3M comparing damage from a pure gs warrior to a d/d we can get close to tripling their damage in a group setting, its somewhat closer when the warrior uses axe/mace because we do just over 2x their damage, this damage is all calculated with full party buffs and equivalent armor/runes/weapons/sigils, your thief build should be 25/30/0/0/15

edit: there are a few other meta thief builds that work to get similar damage or other advantages that 25/30/0/0/15 doesnt have but they are all 25/30/x/x/x

That is crazy damage. I am so far below that it’s insane, and I didn’t even realize how low I was (although the 39k backstab is with assassins signet popped, under 50%) that is still insane. His normals were hitting for 10k.

and thats why i have to facepalm every time i hear thief is bad in pve, think about it, the only difference between your damage and his damage is stats, traits, runes, and food

Doxie.4037:

That is crazy damage. I am so far below that it’s insane, and I didn’t even realize how low I was (although the 39k backstab is with assassins signet popped, under 50%) that is still insane. His normals were hitting for 10k.

not really. its a PVE mob…for one….so thats alot more dmg right there. plus the 25% extra dmg from vulnerability that was on the mob. plz PERFECT conditions…. he prolly had 40% extra dmg under 50% hp and 15% from assassins signet. then he had +1125 power from 25 stacks of bloodlust and 25 stacks of might from a signet build which had NO defense. its a useless build and a total joke. might be entertaining “just for fun” in some easy areas in pve….but nothing more than a 5 sec window gimmick build. i used to run a TRUE max dmg thief build in wvw and i would die alot but ganking in 1-2 hits was always fun. some of the time if i didnt invis i would get from 100% down under 50% before i finished the stomp just from a player attacking. thats how bad it is. so its good to keep it in context. POTENTIALLY thief is the highest dmging class. but in reality its like 3rd or possibly 4th if u count 1 v 1 and dead last in large fighting. goign by DPS standards anyway. invis time plus evades plus dodging plus running. all that lowers DPS incredibly. hope this dose of daily reality helped

Clumsy.6257:

and thats why i have to facepalm every time i hear thief is bad in pve, think about it, the only difference between your damage and his damage is stats, traits, runes, and food

thief is bad. this th ief is a 1 hit kill in pve at any and every boss. not only that he has the lowest possible HP in game plus the lowest possible toughness and lowest possible defense in game . that right there is the single worst build in the game. a downed player could kill him in 5 seconds if he didnt move lol. its bad. its a true max dmg signet build. again another person here pointing out somethign thats not true about thieves bc u dont play one. thanks u really help

and if it helps ive done 63k dmg in WVW under the right conditions in a 1 hit backstab. doesnt mean its practical or used. its pure suicide.