Infi Return Doesn't have a .25 second cast...
Now it is also put into skill queue. It has 0,25 sec cast when you are idle, but if you auto attack or use any other casting skill, it might be increased to 1 sec.
,,Nerfed to oblivion" is a right term here.
a nightmare it should be a stun breaker still ! i never spend time on the forums . but this is wrong !
1s cast is cool. i see this headcrack i’ll use it and just eat it …
well at least we got hard to catch !!! that’s like a consolation prize or something…
1s cast is cool. i see this headcrack i’ll use it and just eat it …
Dodge it instead. The default mapping is “V”. Use a stunbreaker if you miss the window.
well at least we got hard to catch !!! that’s like a consolation prize or something…
Admittedly, the Hard to Catch change is basically indefensible, as is the trait just on general principle.
Dodge it instead. The default mapping is “V”. Use a stunbreaker if you miss the window.
That’s what I already decided to do.
They basically killed this skill I guess. Wish they’d delete it and come up with something new.
hard to catch is the worst trait i have ever seen !
They basically killed this skill I guess. Wish they’d delete it and come up with something new.
I think it’s still useful. The condition removal didn’t go anywhere, it remains a short-range gap closer with an Immobilize, and you can use it for juking and such.
I guess it’s harder to solo shut-down the electric stairs, but I’ll get over it.
Are you still playing this crap? Too bad
but they’re a lot stronger
than they will be next year!
As far as I know, this skill is not working as intended.
The Devs said that Infiltrator’s return would perform the same as before except for being stunned and on port-stomps.
It is clearly the case that this skill is unable to perform as before, since now it gets queued behind many skills, adding its casting time to the completion of the previous skill, and thus, lacking the required responsiveness to use it as a reflex based evasion.
So unless the Devs lied deliberately, or now declare that its current state is the intended one, they failed to deliver what they said to us in their preview.
Guys, stop being so sarcastic. The devs don’t read sarcasm and think you’re actually praising things "-.-
Just adapt. If you can’t, play something else. This is a MMO, changes happen all the time. Oh and just putting it out there, if you could play well before….that isn’t just going to magically change. You should know how to avoid stuns without having to rely on return. People put to much into just one build. Learn to play the game, and your class. Don’t just fret over something stupid. Thief is fine.
Just adapt. If you can’t, play something else. This is a MMO, changes happen all the time. Oh and just putting it out there, if you could play well before….that isn’t just going to magically change. You should know how to avoid stuns without having to rely on return. People put to much into just one build. Learn to play the game, and your class. Don’t just fret over something stupid. Thief is fine.
I’m sorry but unlike many other classes Thief lacks stability, protection, aegis and blocks. It depends on using stealth, dodges and shadow steps to avoid damage, they just got rid of the latter. Not to mention it just feels clunky now, either they need to restore the old IR and if they truly feel it was too good, then they should find another way to nerf it or out-right change the function of it. As it stands the skill ruins the S/D and S/P.
Keep in mind Cloak and Dagger damage in sPvP is still reduced by 33%, a change that was made to reduce the spike of Mug > C&D > Assassin’s Signet > BS is still there. The 4 second revealed also remains in sPvP which has not been needed since culling was completely removed (yes is existed in sPvP before, but it wasn’t nearly bad as WvW culling). So I’m not even expecting a fix any time soon, but hopefully I’m wrong.
Just adapt. If you can’t, play something else. This is a MMO, changes happen all the time. Oh and just putting it out there, if you could play well before….that isn’t just going to magically change. You should know how to avoid stuns without having to rely on return. People put to much into just one build. Learn to play the game, and your class. Don’t just fret over something stupid. Thief is fine.
I’m sorry but unlike many other classes Thief lacks stability, protection, aegis and blocks. It depends on using stealth, dodges and shadow steps to avoid damage, they just got rid of the latter. Not to mention it just feels clunky now, either they need to restore the old IR and if they truly feel it was too good, then they should find another way to nerf it or out-right change the function of it. As it stands the skill ruins the S/D and S/P.
Keep in mind Cloak and Dagger damage in sPvP is still reduced by 33%, a change that was made to reduce the spike of Mug > C&D > Assassin’s Signet > BS is still there. The 4 second revealed also remains in sPvP which has not been needed since culling was completely removed (yes is existed in sPvP before, but it wasn’t nearly bad as WvW culling). So I’m not even expecting a fix any time soon, but hopefully I’m wrong.
This hasn’t been my main since head start or anything, so please, tell me more about the class that I know. Do you not enjoy challenge? I promise you, if you are good at your class, you are going to win. You can also learn the distances that different sets/classes can hit you from. Stay outside of that while hitting and moving. Also, they haven’t increased the initial cast, so you can still use that. If you see a class you KNOW is going to CC, don’t blow it right off the bat to get there. Bring them closer to an area where you have some kind of other “enemy” to target. See the knockback coming? Tab that, then use 2. You are out of range of the attack, there for not stunned. 9 out of 10 warriors are going to blow the rest of their cc trying to chain it after that regardless of whether it hits you or not. Everyone should work on their reaction time, it’s a good thing to be quick on…for more than just a game.
It just feels like the game is lagging.
A terrible design decision to go through with this change. It’s the least elegant solution to a problem that never existed in the first place.
The game has been lagging more since the patch, i’ve noticed that a lot. More skill lag, gg anet. Way to support your clutch players.
Also, they haven’t increased the initial cast, so you can still use that. Bring them closer to an area where you have some kind of other “enemy” to target. See the knockback coming? Tab that, then use 2. You are out of range of the attack, there for not stunned.
You are a funny guy, you are. Basically what you are saying is: “If you play sword mainhand, take fights with nearby mobs around, then use your initiating/cc/damaging skill as a way to evade telegraphed enemy skills. Then waste some more initiative to be ready to do it again, unless you want to wait 15 seconds.” Boy, that sure sounds reta.. err rewarding.
Also, they haven’t increased the initial cast, so you can still use that. Bring them closer to an area where you have some kind of other “enemy” to target. See the knockback coming? Tab that, then use 2. You are out of range of the attack, there for not stunned.
You are a funny guy, you are. Basically what you are saying is: “If you play sword mainhand, take fights with nearby mobs around, then use your initiating/cc/damaging skill as a way to evade telegraphed enemy skills. Then waste some more initiative to be ready to do it again, unless you want to wait 15 seconds.” Boy, that sure sounds reta.. err rewarding.
While you continue to think that, i’ll continue to have no issues at all playing my thief. Enjoy simple play, probably suits you.
You can also learn the distances that different sets/classes can hit you from. Stay outside of that while hitting and moving. Also, they haven’t increased the initial cast, so you can still use that. If you see a class you KNOW is going to CC, don’t blow it right off the bat to get there. Bring them closer to an area where you have some kind of other “enemy” to target. See the knockback coming? Tab that, then use 2. You are out of range of the attack, there for not stunned. 9 out of 10 warriors are going to blow the rest of their cc trying to chain it after that regardless of whether it hits you or not. Everyone should work on their reaction time, it’s a good thing to be quick on…for more than just a game.
Most melee weapons have the same or greater distance than thief 1h sword, so not sure what you mean by hitting people while remaining out of their range. Do you mean you’re both fighting at the edge of your range and you’re waiting for them to use and attack that either slows their movement or roots them, or do you mean you’re getting out of their range and using FS (not even an option for S/P) to get in and hit them then getting out of their range again?
Even with that you still didn’t post any reason why the skill (we’re talking return, not strike here) is fine. You say to use IS as a dodge and even then IS also has a cast time (as in it can’t be used while other skills like IR was able to).
Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Thief should be this class that if played perfectly can never be hit, but in it’s current state with S/X we can evade just slightly more than any number of classes that have vigor on crit such as Guardian’s Vigorous Precision, Elementalist’s Renewing Stamina and Mesmer’s Critical Infusion, while all 3 of those classes have access to stability and protection.
Lastly you give a scenario of fighting a brain-dead warrior, not really sure what you’re trying to prove with that.
(edited by KaiserCX.7103)
This actually just made the thief feel REALLY clunky: Jump in with 2, use 1 chain, as soon as 1 chain ends jump back out with 2. It waits about a second before its actually cast. Wierd right, I thought it only had a .25s cast time. IR sometimes interrupts skills so that it can cast, and other times its enters a que. It isn’t consistent at all and ANet kinda broke it beyond belief.
Now with the cast time, people are either leaving s/x all together, or they are staying out of combat and waiting instead of " actively engaging in the fight." S/x are much more passive with this nerf.
s/d isnt playable in spvp. ive tried it and it really opens up thief to alot of dmg and telegraphs his skills. HELLO im doing this…free hits. come n get em! ive been interrupted a few times too. ill make a video of it if requested but thats more for anet bc all true thieves knowwhats up.
Seems like this change was made so your typival spvp evade spam build would think about what fight to engage as he can’t just inf return back with no repercussion but anet forgot about the other s/x-users who use it for any other means.
Feels very clunky and now being so vulnerable to any hard cc coming at you makes this a very undesirable weapon choice. Really wish they would revert it to where it was before.
Quit complaining, any veteran thief will tell you sword #2 was broken. I am using the new shadow return just fine…you no longer have a get out of jail card, big deal. You have a stunbreaker for that reason. It’s time to focus on timing dodges and gameplay, rather than relying on sword #2 to save your kitten .
Undercoverism [UC]
I don’t understand this patch at all.
- The assassin’s reward rework resulted in 1 extra healing per 100 healing power. This is what “35% more healing power” translates to – that does not feel like a buff to me, much less one that necessitated AR becoming a GM trait.
- Hard to catch is still designed to be detrimental to the thief, when it was intended as a survivability buff. It shares more characteristics with crowd control abilities (Loss of control, random direction/distance teleport) than anything else, and doesn’t break the CC.
- The Init changes were intended to stop pigeonholing thieves into certain traitlines for Init regen, which I like the idea of. However the current Init regen traits were simply nerfed with no additional functionality added to them (weakening those trait lines – quick recovery is now a joke, opportunist is bland and UP for a 15 point minor), and Power/crit specs are still pigeonholed into 30 CS for Executioner.
- The Inf Return change was poorly implemented – if they didn’t want the skill to work while stunned/mid cast, why not just disable it’s use in those scenario’s? A cast time kills skilled use of the ability, almost entirely removing skill as a factor from one of the thief’s highest skill cap builds
- I don’t see how Skelk venom was ever going to “Really shake things up” (Paraphrasing) – It’s provably worse (by a wide margin) than our other healing options except in a 30/x/30/x/x venom share spec, and even there it lacks condition removal and does little to bolster sustain for the thief player himself, which is where the sustain is sorely needed. Even if it was a solid heal in Venom share, why add a healing skill that’s only ever effective in one(und only vone!) spec?
- Vigor nerfs – Other classes with excellent access to regen, protection, stability, condition cleanses/immunity, and good armor options have access to high uptime/perma vigor. The only class in the game with no access to protection or stability, which can’t block or go immune, which relies entirely on evasion to mitigate damage… they get a vigor nerf. Again, I’m having a hard time following the logic.
Quit complaining, any veteran thief will tell you sword #2 was broken. I am using the new shadow return just fine…you no longer have a get out of jail card, big deal. You have a stunbreaker for that reason. It’s time to focus on timing dodges and gameplay, rather than relying on sword #2 to save your kitten .
Except OP is a veteran thief, while I’ve seen your name on the boards a mere handful of times (Which isn’t an insult, just to say by your logic I should trust Arg’s opinion over yours)
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
(edited by evilapprentice.6379)
It waits about a second before its actually cast. Wierd right, I thought it only had a .25s cast time. IR sometimes interrupts skills so that it can cast, and other times its enters a que. It isn’t consistent at all and ANet kinda broke it beyond belief.
I am not experiencing this behavior at all. IR interrupts skills every time that I use it, even on ones with a particularly long animation, like Pistol Whip. Are you actually timing this properly?
- I don’t see how Skelk venom was ever going to “Really shake things up” (Paraphrasing) – It’s provably worse (by a wide margin) than our other healing options except in a 30/x/30/x/x venom share spec, and even there it lacks condition removal and does little to bolster sustain for the thief player himself, which is where the sustain is sorely needed. Even if it was a solid heal in Venom share, why add a healing skill that’s only ever effective in one(und only vone!) spec?
What’s wrong with making a heal that venom share specs can use? That’s sort of the point of expanding skill choice in the first place.
Anyway, that’s nonsense regardless. Your hypothetical venom thief has Shadow’s Embrace for condition removal, can swap out a utility for more, and has plenty of access to sustain with Leeching Venoms (plus Shadow’s Rejuvenation when solo). And while Skelk is a worse heal over time than the other options, it’s a pretty good burst heal.
- I don’t see how Skelk venom was ever going to “Really shake things up” (Paraphrasing) – It’s provably worse (by a wide margin) than our other healing options except in a 30/x/30/x/x venom share spec, and even there it lacks condition removal and does little to bolster sustain for the thief player himself, which is where the sustain is sorely needed. Even if it was a solid heal in Venom share, why add a healing skill that’s only ever effective in one(und only vone!) spec?
What’s wrong with making a heal that venom share specs can use? That’s sort of the point of expanding skill choice in the first place.
Anyway, that’s nonsense regardless. Your hypothetical venom thief has Shadow’s Embrace for condition removal, can swap out a utility for more, and has plenty of access to sustain with Leeching Venoms (plus Shadow’s Rejuvenation when solo). And while Skelk is a worse heal over time than the other options, it’s a pretty good burst heal.
It doesn’t have built in conditional removal like Withdraw and HiS does, it’s burst healing is reliant on hitting your target (not always in your control due to blocks/immunes/etc). The other heals don’t rely on traits to bolster them into usefulness – they’re good on their own, like Skelk venom should be but isn’t.
Swapping a utility for more condition removal hurts your venom share spec which you invested 4-5 traits into – it’s already down a slot due to the necessity of taking a stun breaker.
There’s nothing wrong with a heal that venom share specs can use. There is a problem with a heal that’s only viable for venom share specs.
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
(edited by evilapprentice.6379)
It doesn’t have built in conditional removal like Withdraw and HiS does, it’s burst healing is reliant on hitting your target (not always in your control due to blocks/immunes/etc). The other heals don’t rely on traits to bolster them into usefulness – they’re good on their own, like Skelk venom should be but isn’t.
Swapping a utility for more condition removal hurts your venom share spec which you invested 4-5 traits into – it’s already down a slot due to the necessity of taking a stun breaker.
There’s nothing wrong with a heal that venom share specs can use. There is a problem with a heal that’s only viable for venom share specs.
My basic problem with your argument is that you make a bunch of assumptions that aren’t really valid.
You say that Skelk doesn’t have built-in condition removal, but neither does Malice, and Withdraw and HiS both have big asterisks next to them: the first removes no damaging conditions whatsoever, and the latter only gets poison/burning/bleeding. Against confusion, torment, vuln, weakness, etc you might as well be running with nothing at all.
The burst healing is reliant on hitting your target, but it DOES burst more healing than any other option available, has easy synergy with Leeching Venoms, and the on-hit heals can be pre-charged. If you want a large amount of healing in a small amount of time, this is a good choice.
The statement “Skelk should be good on its own” is nonsense. Guild Wars is about skill synergy. Why shouldn’t this also apply to heals? Skelk works with either 30 DA or SA. Both at once is particularly good for Skelk, but not strictly necessary to realize benefits.
Shadowstep is both stun breaker and condition removal; a decent choice to cover the weaknesses of a Skelk venom build. Thief specs are all about tradeoffs; there is no build that has zero weak points or shortcomings. You choose what you can live with, and cover the holes as best you can. Skelk is no different in this respect.
Quit complaining, any veteran thief will tell you sword #2 was broken. I am using the new shadow return just fine…you no longer have a get out of jail card, big deal. You have a stunbreaker for that reason. It’s time to focus on timing dodges and gameplay, rather than relying on sword #2 to save your kitten .
Except OP is a veteran thief, while I’ve seen your name on the boards a mere handful of times (Which isn’t an insult, just to say by your logic I should trust Arg’s opinion over yours)
lol I stopped reading when you mentioned leaderboards…leaderboard rank = vet now? Good joke.
Say what you want, but you and OP just seems sour because you can’t use sword 2 as a instant (no skill) get-out-of-jail card. I think the nerf was totally necessary to make thieves put some thought into using using their sword 2, and actually learning to dodge instead of charging in like an idiot and being able to rely on shadow return to save your kitten if anything ever goes wrong. You have stunbreaks and dodges, use them.
Undercoverism [UC]
s/d isnt playable in spvp. ive tried it and it really opens up thief to alot of dmg and telegraphs his skills. HELLO im doing this…free hits. come n get em! ive been interrupted a few times too. ill make a video of it if requested but thats more for anet bc all true thieves knowwhats up.
This is just… Not true. Berserk s/d is still our highest DPS set, and reliable bc boon strip hits stability/prot first. I wouldn’t run it if the other team has a thief because it’s too risky, and rightfully so, otherwise it would just be superior to everything.
It doesn’t have built in conditional removal like Withdraw and HiS does, it’s burst healing is reliant on hitting your target (not always in your control due to blocks/immunes/etc). The other heals don’t rely on traits to bolster them into usefulness – they’re good on their own, like Skelk venom should be but isn’t.
Swapping a utility for more condition removal hurts your venom share spec which you invested 4-5 traits into – it’s already down a slot due to the necessity of taking a stun breaker.
There’s nothing wrong with a heal that venom share specs can use. There is a problem with a heal that’s only viable for venom share specs.
My basic problem with your argument is that you make a bunch of assumptions that aren’t really valid.
You say that Skelk doesn’t have built-in condition removal, but neither does Malice, and Withdraw and HiS both have big asterisks next to them: the first removes no damaging conditions whatsoever, and the latter only gets poison/burning/bleeding. Against confusion, torment, vuln, weakness, etc you might as well be running with nothing at all.
Withdraw and HiS both remove more conditions than Skelk venom – There’s no need for an asterisk, the statement “Skelk venom does nothing against conditions while withdraw and HiS do” is strictly true. Considering how deadly an immobilize or burning can be to a thief, there is a high value in the limited conditions those heals remove.
The burst healing is reliant on hitting your target, but it DOES burst more healing than any other option available, has easy synergy with Leeching Venoms, and the on-hit heals can be pre-charged. If you want a large amount of healing in a small amount of time, this is a good choice.
If you pre-charge the on hit heals, you’re sacrificing the activation heal, tanking your burst healing AND your Heal over time. It potentially has more burst healing – it also alerts your opponent to when it’s most advantageous to dodge/block/immune/blind your skills. It’s a heal that can be mitigated by skills that your opponent is already using to mitigate your damage. They don’t have to do anything special.
The statement “Skelk should be good on its own” is nonsense. Guild Wars is about skill synergy. Why shouldn’t this also apply to heals? Skelk works with either 30 DA or SA. Both at once is particularly good for Skelk, but not strictly necessary to realize benefits.
I don’t see how you could seriously make this claim. On one hand, we have heals that work well regardless of trait choices. They can be strengthened by traits, but are good heals even if your traits don’t support them. On the other hand we have Skelk venom, which requires at minimum 2 traits (Leeching/QV), most often 4-5 to be on par with your untraited heals. Skelk venom without at mimum QV and leeching venoms is demonstrably worse than withdraw and HiS in almost every realistic scenario. Backstab does the same amount of damage regardless how many points you put into SA – 30 SA certainly strengthens a BS build (longer stealth, healing in stealth, condition removal in stealth), but not taking any points in SA doesn’t make backstab a strictly weaker skill. Not taking venom related traits makes Skelk venom a strictly weaker skill. Skill synergy is “what can I do to make this already good skill better”, not “What can I do to make this underpowered skill functional”.
Shadowstep is both stun breaker and condition removal.
Which is nice, but comes with the added cost of using it for 1 means its unavailable for the other. Not a huge deal, except when all your other utilities are locked into venoms to make your venom share build viable.
Thief specs are all about tradeoffs; there is no build that has zero weak points or shortcomings. You choose what you can live with, and cover the holes as best you can. Skelk is no different in this respect.
Skelk is different in that it contains glaring weak points and short comings that don’t come close to being covered by it’s “strengths” in most situations. The only situation where it is a strong build is when you spend 60 of your 70 trait points and 4-5 of your 7 slottable traits in supporting it. It’s silly for a heal to only perform acceptably in 1 very specific spec.
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
(edited by evilapprentice.6379)
Quit complaining, any veteran thief will tell you sword #2 was broken. I am using the new shadow return just fine…you no longer have a get out of jail card, big deal. You have a stunbreaker for that reason. It’s time to focus on timing dodges and gameplay, rather than relying on sword #2 to save your kitten .
Except OP is a veteran thief, while I’ve seen your name on the boards a mere handful of times (Which isn’t an insult, just to say by your logic I should trust Arg’s opinion over yours)
lol I stopped reading when you mentioned leaderboards…leaderboard rank = vet now? Good joke.
Say what you want, but you and OP just seems sour because you can’t use sword 2 as a instant (no skill) get-out-of-jail card. I think the nerf was totally necessary to make thieves put some thought into using using their sword 2, and actually learning to dodge instead of charging in like an idiot and being able to rely on shadow return to save your kitten if anything ever goes wrong. You have stunbreaks and dodges, use them.
Easy there, Texas… I think boards = forums. You should probably think a little bit before assuming so quickly. :)
Also:
June 25, 2013
- Shadow Return (Infiltrator Strike Toggle): This skill is no longer a stun breaker.
It stopped being a stun breaker long ago. It just ported you back (while still under the effects of the CC), at the cost of initiative.
we all began as something else
(edited by xmtrcv.5236)
^yeah I think Evilapprentice meant forums as well… :p
GL – “The Afternoon’s Watch” [OATH]
^yeah I think Evilapprentice meant forums as well… :p
That is exactly what I meant, for clarification.
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
^yeah I think Evilapprentice meant forums as well… :p
That is exactly what I meant, for clarification.
I know what you meant! I said what you meant! xD <3
In fact, “leaderboards” is one of the least-used words in the Thief forums, considering the current state of the profession. :)
we all began as something else
stuff
There’s always a need for an asterisk when someone says something that’s strictly true but misleading: HiS and Withdraw have very specific applications when it comes to removing conditions. This isn’t Fact Checker All-stars, where the truth sets you free, this is you making hyperbolic statements and me calling you out on it. None of the Thief healing skills — absent maybe HiS with Embrace synergy — does any sort of omni condition removal, so you’re always going to have to cover the hole with something that’s not actually a healing skill.
Pre-charging your heals has drawbacks certainly, but here’s a list of the other Thief healing skills that can be pre-charged:
If you don’t see anything there, that’s because they don’t exist. Skelk is providing an extra option, here.
Skelk venom does exactly as advertised: the strong base heal and on-hit after-heals make it basically the strongest burst heal available. You don’t need to trait a single thing to get that benefit. But why on earth does something “have” to be useful on its own to be worthwhile? There are a half dozen or more trait synergies with Skelk because it’s both a venom and a healing skill, and some builds will get there entirely by accident. I could take Skelk on my S/P Thief without batting an eyelash.
Shadowstep does have the downside of being a combo skill with a single cooldown for both things. It’s a tradeoff you make. The idea that a venom thief needs to stuff their bar full of venoms to be viable, is abject nonsense. Just because you have venom share or residual doesn’t imply that you’d never put up with the opportunity cost of a non-venom. You can easily give up one or two utility slots — full time or situationally — because of the availability of venoms in the Healing and Elite slots.
It’s silly for a heal to only perform acceptably in 1 very specific spec.
This is basically a compressed version of why it’s hard to take your opinion seriously. You’re asserting that the heal only performs acceptably in a single spec, which requires an extremely specific definition of “acceptably”. What’s the snow globe for this? Your personal experience in ultra-competitive PvP? Give me a break.
stuff
There’s absolutely no reason for us to continue conversing and derailing the thread (my bad on that). You and I have very disparate opinions on what good design is (IMO you have a very off base opinion on what good design is), and will likely never see eye to eye.
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
There’s absolutely no reason for us to continue conversing and derailing the thread (my bad on that). You and I have very disparate opinions on what good design is (IMO you have a very off base opinion on what good design is), and will likely never see eye to eye.
I don’t recall having ever given you my opinion on what constitutes good design, but given your penchant for making wild assertions in this thread, I guess it should come as no surprise that you presume to know what I’m thinking about on a topic we haven’t even discussed before.
its true tho. a heal should work in pretty much alot of specs or most. not just 1
our heal works in a SINGLE spec only. and even that its a spec that has ZERO defense and is a mindless auto attack build.
There’s absolutely no reason for us to continue conversing and derailing the thread (my bad on that). You and I have very disparate opinions on what good design is (IMO you have a very off base opinion on what good design is), and will likely never see eye to eye.
I don’t recall having ever given you my opinion on what constitutes good design, but given your penchant for making wild assertions in this thread, I guess it should come as no surprise that you presume to know what I’m thinking about on a topic we haven’t even discussed before.
Your arguments in defense of Skelk venom give me a very clear insight as to what you feel is good design. There’s no need to get defensive however.
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
Your arguments in defense of Skelk venom give me a very clear insight as to what you feel is good design.
They give as much insight into that, as they do in what I like to eat for breakfast. Someone else more aware of context might float the possibility that I was a contrarian making a Devil’s Advocate argument, but you’ve confidently come to the conclusion that we have disparate opinions on a subject that wasn’t even under discussion in the first place.
We probably have disparate opinions on what constitutes a “reasonable extrapolation”, though. Plenty of evidence for that one.
Your arguments in defense of Skelk venom give me a very clear insight as to what you feel is good design.
They give as much insight into that, as they do in what I like to eat for breakfast. Someone else more aware of context might float the possibility that I was a contrarian making a Devil’s Advocate argument, but you’ve confidently come to the conclusion that we have disparate opinions on a subject that wasn’t even under discussion in the first place.
We probably have disparate opinions on what constitutes a “reasonable extrapolation”, though. Plenty of evidence for that one.
I failed to take into account the possibility you were championing what I consider to be a poorly designed skill “just for funsies”. I can only make calls based on the information you provide me – if you make arguments from what I consider to be a bad standpoint, that’s all the data I have to make judgements on what your understanding of good design is. If you don’t want people to make assumptions concerning your understanding of good design, don’t vigorously defend poorly designed skills.
Also, the following sentence
But why on earth does something “have” to be useful on its own to be worthwhile?
Is quite telling – the hallmark of good design is every skill being useful on its own. That’s what leads to build diversity and varied play. If there are many skills that are only useful when combined with very specific specs, you’re left with 2-3 cookie cutter builds per class, and a less fun game. Obviously every skill being useful on it’s own isn’t realistic – no game is perfect. It’s still the goal of good design.
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
(edited by evilapprentice.6379)
I failed […]
Indeed. There are no “people” making assumptions, here: that’s just you. While we’re giving unsolicited advice, here’s mine: it’s good practice to not make judgments about someone else’s motivations. If you want information, ask for it.
the hallmark of good design is every skill being useful on its own.
A bold assertion. Take a look at this simple chart:
0 Hide in Shadows
3 Signet of Malice
1 Withdraw
25 Skelk Venom
Anything stand out to your eye?
I failed […]
Indeed. There are no “people” making assumptions, here: that’s just you. While we’re giving unsolicited advice, here’s mine: it’s good practice to not make judgments about someone else’s motivations. If you want information, ask for it.
the hallmark of good design is every skill being useful on its own.
A bold assertion. Take a look at this simple chart:
0 Hide in Shadows
3 Signet of Malice
1 Withdraw
25 Skelk VenomAnything stand out to your eye?
whats this chart mean? i dont get it. its more like a tally score thana chart. mind elaborating?
I failed […]
Indeed. There are no “people” making assumptions, here: that’s just you. While we’re giving unsolicited advice, here’s mine: it’s good practice to not make judgments about someone else’s motivations. If you want information, ask for it.
the hallmark of good design is every skill being useful on its own.
A bold assertion. Take a look at this simple chart:
0 Hide in Shadows
3 Signet of Malice
1 Withdraw
25 Skelk VenomAnything stand out to your eye?
whats this chart mean? i dont get it. its more like a tally score thana chart. mind elaborating?
Skill Point cost.
And that one heal is a Venom.
we all began as something else
Aaah, i didn’t get that “chart” either .. thanks for elaborating ^^
GL – “The Afternoon’s Watch” [OATH]
Not to derail this thread that was supposed to be about IR too much more, but I don’t understand why you’d want a thief skelk venom over an engi with a healing turret. Healing turret (overcharge) provides 2520 base healing to allies + 650 from regen+ about 1200 more health if you blow it up in the water field it creates on a 460 radius. That’s about 4400 health on a 20 second cooldown (220ish HPS) and it cures conditions with no traits involved. Skale venom provides (for your teamates with VS, LV, and RV) 3225 from the kittens + 1625 from the leeching venoms which is about 4850 on a 36 second (traited) cooldown (134 HPS). It was a nice start in attempting to bring group utility to the thief, but it really needs a pretty drastic buff to start to compare with some similar skill other classes can bring.
These numbers were just for the group heal utility. Maybe they’ll buff it. All venoms really need a shorter CD base before I’ll consider taking them.
Quit complaining, any veteran thief will tell you sword #2 was broken. I am using the new shadow return just fine…you no longer have a get out of jail card, big deal. You have a stunbreaker for that reason. It’s time to focus on timing dodges and gameplay, rather than relying on sword #2 to save your kitten .
Don’t try to reason with them, they won’t listen. For kittens sake they are judging how good of a thief people are from how much you post on the forum, it is hilarious.
Before the patch landed I somewhat agreed with the methodology behind the cast time addition to Infiltrators Return. I have to say though after testing (just in PvE mind you) I’m not convinced that the cast time is really only 1/4 second as the tooltip states.
Just a simple test fighting a usually no sweat vet giant in Cursed Shore. He does a relatively long windup before a knockback attack, definitely more than 1 second telegraphed. I used to be able to initiate the fight with Infiltrator’s Strike, wait for the tell and return…no problem. Not anymore. Now as soon as I see him starting his windup I try to return and never make it in time. My hotkey is actually on my mouse and my reaction times are fast for everything else so I just can’t believe that it’s actually a 1/4 second cast time. It really takes about 1 second for the return to happen as far as I can tell.
It might be due to micro lag or maybe even a bug but it just doesn’t seem like what was advertised on the label. Very frustrating getting owned by such a slow mob…don’t even want to think about how this affects PvP.
(edited by Wasbunny.6531)
Don’t know about you guys, but for me sword 2 is bugged as never. Sometimes IS doesn’t work and other times it queue twice, making me teleporting forth and backwards. Also, if I click IS+PW fast, PW will just stun, without doing the rest of the animation.