Guild Wars 2

Disclaimer: My main is a thief and I play WvW with a D/P & S/D set.

This trait as it currently is, counters good gameplay and Initiative management and allows the Thief to achieve the so hated “perma stealth”, which is the main reason for people “dislike” to fight thieves in my opinion.

So here is a question to fellow thieves: How would it affect your gameplay if Infusion of Shadow had a 3 seconds internal cooldown?

In my view D/P would still have it’s access to stealth without target while making it harder/impossible to maintain permanent stealth with it, the smoke field lasts 4 seconds though and some testing is needed.

Seth.4927:

Disclaimer: My main is a thief and I play WvW with a D/P & S/D set.

This trait as it currently is, counters good gameplay and Initiative management and allows the Thief to achieve the so hated “perma stealth”, which is the main reason for people “dislike” to fight thieves in my opinion.

So here is a question to fellow thieves: How would it affect your gameplay if Infusion of Shadow had a 3 seconds internal cooldown?

In my view D/P would still have it’s access to stealth without target while making it harder/impossible to maintain permanent stealth with it, the smoke field lasts 4 seconds though and some testing is needed.

No.

Why do people keep wanting to nerf thieves?

I hate reading threads like this.

swinsk.6410:

Why do people keep wanting to nerf thieves?

I hate reading threads like this.

I am not asking for a nerf for thieves, I’m just asking for a discussion on how much would it really affect your gameplay were a change like that take place.

Judging by how it goes since Beta, it is way more probable that Anet will gut the D/P set due to QQ than make a trait adjust.

Permastealth builds are stealthed for 4 seconds (3.5~) before C&D’ing back into stealth, so either you overlooked this, or don’t understand the mechanics. Either way, it wouldn’t do kitten, and would only nerf Shadow Refuge’s initiative regeneration side effect.

Oxygen.5918:

Permastealth builds are stealthed for 4 seconds (3.5~) before C&D’ing back into stealth, so either you overlooked this, or don’t understand the mechanics. Either way, it wouldn’t do kitten, and would only nerf Shadow Refuge’s initiative regeneration side effect.

Thought I made it clear, but I’m referring this change into the D/P weapon set where you can drop the smoke field and do 3~4 Heartseekers in it (each costs 1 initiative each due to the trait) and thus attaining a “permanent stealth”.
x/D gameplay really shouldn’t be affected, thanks for the input on SR.

you only get like 1.5 secs of stealth or something if you only HS once thru the Black powder shot or MAYBe 2 secs max so if u arent atble to stack it the skill is kinda bunk :P i mean you HAVE to aim it at the enemy and have literally like 1 sec to turn around hope he bares his back to you and doesnt move AT ALL lol….. and 1.5 or 2 secs whatever is not enough time to really get away and re adjust yourself for a new position/attack etc or just plain get away. yeah it would make the skill bunk unless the combo gave a full 3 sec of invis or 4 secs of traited for the +1.

Seth.4927:

So here is a question to fellow thieves: How would it affect your gameplay if Infusion of Shadow had a 3 seconds internal cooldown?

Not. Or very little, as for me it would only have effect on Shadow Refuge. Probably one of the better suggestions to limit D/P perma-stealth, though I am not convinced D/P perma-stealth is a real problem.

Travlane.5948:

you only get like 1.5 secs of stealth or something if you only HS once thru the Black powder shot or MAYBe 2 secs max so if u arent atble to stack it the skill is kinda bunk :P i mean you HAVE to aim it at the enemy and have literally like 1 sec to turn around hope he bares his back to you and doesnt move AT ALL lol….. and 1.5 or 2 secs whatever is not enough time to really get away and re adjust yourself for a new position/attack etc or just plain get away. yeah it would make the skill bunk unless the combo gave a full 3 sec of invis or 4 secs of traited for the +1.

With BP and repeated HS you can effectively build up enough stealth to replenish initiative to full, then repeat the cycle. Even if you only manage 3 HS before the BP field dissipates.

Seth.4927:

Oxygen.5918:

Permastealth builds are stealthed for 4 seconds (3.5~) before C&D’ing back into stealth, so either you overlooked this, or don’t understand the mechanics. Either way, it wouldn’t do kitten, and would only nerf Shadow Refuge’s initiative regeneration side effect.

Thought I made it clear, but I’m referring this change into the D/P weapon set where you can drop the smoke field and do 3~4 Heartseekers in it (each costs 1 initiative each due to the trait) and thus attaining a “permanent stealth”.
x/D gameplay really shouldn’t be affected, thanks for the input on SR.

That isn’t what permastealth is, though, even if you “made it clear”. Don’t twist definitions. You shouldn’t misuse terms.

Oxygen.5918:

Seth.4927:

Oxygen.5918:

Permastealth builds are stealthed for 4 seconds (3.5~) before C&D’ing back into stealth, so either you overlooked this, or don’t understand the mechanics. Either way, it wouldn’t do kitten, and would only nerf Shadow Refuge’s initiative regeneration side effect.

Thought I made it clear, but I’m referring this change into the D/P weapon set where you can drop the smoke field and do 3~4 Heartseekers in it (each costs 1 initiative each due to the trait) and thus attaining a “permanent stealth”.
x/D gameplay really shouldn’t be affected, thanks for the input on SR.

That isn’t what permastealth is, though, even if you “made it clear”. Don’t twist definitions. You shouldn’t misuse terms.

What? It d/p sure can permastealth in every sense of the word.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Oxygen.5918:

Seth.4927:

Oxygen.5918:

Permastealth builds are stealthed for 4 seconds (3.5~) before C&D’ing back into stealth, so either you overlooked this, or don’t understand the mechanics. Either way, it wouldn’t do kitten, and would only nerf Shadow Refuge’s initiative regeneration side effect.

Thought I made it clear, but I’m referring this change into the D/P weapon set where you can drop the smoke field and do 3~4 Heartseekers in it (each costs 1 initiative each due to the trait) and thus attaining a “permanent stealth”.
x/D gameplay really shouldn’t be affected, thanks for the input on SR.

That isn’t what permastealth is, though, even if you “made it clear”. Don’t twist definitions. You shouldn’t misuse terms.

What? It d/p sure can permastealth in every sense of the word.

It doesn’t yield anything, unlike C/D every 2.5/3.5 which does in fact deal damage. That’s the major difference. Why the **** would anyone complain about heartseeking through black powder? If you miss heartseeker and hit someone by accident, you lose everything and your life. It makes no sense to post about this

LMAO @ ^^^^ guy above me

Oxygen.5918:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Oxygen.5918:

Seth.4927:

Oxygen.5918:

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It doesn’t yield anything, unlike C/D every 2.5/3.5 which does in fact deal damage. That’s the major difference. Why the **** would anyone complain about heartseeking through black powder? If you miss heartseeker and hit someone by accident, you lose everything and your life. It makes no sense to post about this

It does yield something, it yields "perma stealthing’
C&D chaining isn’t perma stealthing, it’s chain stealthing.
Difference: Perma stealthing is something that can be used in wvw to keep hidden in a tower without anyone ever seeing you (only the BP and maybe smoke from clusterbomb)
Chain stealthing you’ll be seen for 0.5-1 second every time, or when there is nothing to hit. There is a very big difference.

This guy is asking what it’d change if there was a cooldown on the regeneration, since a 3s cooldown means you can only do 1, maximum 2, heartseeker in the blackpowder without losing too much initiatives. This means that you won’t have enough stealth to maintain a perma-stealth.

So? how would this effect my gameplay?
I think i would have to keep a little closer eye on my ini.. or get “gain initiative faster in stealth” (which i never use and still perma stealth fine..) or get “2 initiative every 10 seconds trait” and i will be back where i was

You’re not seen if you don’t suck

On topic: It won’t destroy perma stealthing, but I think it’ll make perma stealthing something you’ll rly have to trait into instead of just switching out one trait.
Right now, the difference between my roaming build and my perma stealthing build is “infusion of shadow” against “Shadow’s Embrace”.

I think I’ll probably need patience to maintain this now.. So I won’t be running perma stealthing anymore should this be introduced.

but I DO suck!!!!! thats why i need easy mode dagger/pistol.. i never miss my stealth now and i never get hit (blinds for EVERYONE “enjoy ppl”).. it makes me so good.. i even get invited to go roaming now which ppl never used to do because i always died.

Seth.4927:

Disclaimer: My main is a thief and I play WvW with a D/P & S/D set.

This trait as it currently is, counters good gameplay and Initiative management and allows the Thief to achieve the so hated “perma stealth”, which is the main reason for people “dislike” to fight thieves in my opinion.

So here is a question to fellow thieves: How would it affect your gameplay if Infusion of Shadow had a 3 seconds internal cooldown?

In my view D/P would still have it’s access to stealth without target while making it harder/impossible to maintain permanent stealth with it, the smoke field lasts 4 seconds though and some testing is needed.

well, i could not fill my empty 15 point bar with shadow refuge for perma unloads….
better lower the smoke field+blast/leap to 2 seconds of stealth (no extra second from trait) with 2-3 seconds internal CD

WHY you nerf traits when the combos are at fault ?!?
better ini management ? …. so we need weak skills and low ini regen….lol

Thanks for all the input guys, in conclusion: while it would make perma stealth harder it would not in any means make it impossible but the side effect is that it would hurt perma stealth (D/P) builds as they’ll be forced to take more initiative regen for it and thus less damage traits.

Permanent stealth is not a huge issue in my view, but the amount of complaining it brings to the forums is absurd (due to how much people dislike this spec) and this complaining will eventually turn it into a nerf and we all know how soft the nerf hammer is.

I’ll test today how often we gain initiative in SR, to see if a 3 sec CD would hurt it. Thanks once again.

Edit: SR gives a total of 8 Initiative due to this trait, would be 4 with a cd on trait. Not cool.

Oxygen.5918:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Oxygen.5918:

Seth.4927:

Oxygen.5918:

Permastealth builds are stealthed for 4 seconds (3.5~) before C&D’ing back into stealth, so either you overlooked this, or don’t understand the mechanics. Either way, it wouldn’t do kitten, and would only nerf Shadow Refuge’s initiative regeneration side effect.

Thought I made it clear, but I’m referring this change into the D/P weapon set where you can drop the smoke field and do 3~4 Heartseekers in it (each costs 1 initiative each due to the trait) and thus attaining a “permanent stealth”.
x/D gameplay really shouldn’t be affected, thanks for the input on SR.

That isn’t what permastealth is, though, even if you “made it clear”. Don’t twist definitions. You shouldn’t misuse terms.

What? It d/p sure can permastealth in every sense of the word.

It doesn’t yield anything, unlike C/D every 2.5/3.5 which does in fact deal damage. That’s the major difference. Why the **** would anyone complain about heartseeking through black powder? If you miss heartseeker and hit someone by accident, you lose everything and your life. It makes no sense to post about this

It still is permastealth though.

Seth.4927:

Disclaimer: My main is a thief and I play WvW with a D/P & S/D set.

This trait as it currently is, counters good gameplay and Initiative management and allows the Thief to achieve the so hated “perma stealth”, which is the main reason for people “dislike” to fight thieves in my opinion.

So here is a question to fellow thieves: How would it affect your gameplay if Infusion of Shadow had a 3 seconds internal cooldown?

In my view D/P would still have it’s access to stealth without target while making it harder/impossible to maintain permanent stealth with it, the smoke field lasts 4 seconds though and some testing is needed.

Actually, that’d be a great idea!

Just add something else to the trait to compensate, I think. Like put it on a 5 second internal CD and flat heal us for a little bit, or maybe add 5x Might for 3s.

EDIT: YESSSSS MIGHT YESSSSSSS

Ewww, I don’t like this idea. It already costs tons to stealth with D/P. 9 initiative for a 3 second stealth, so unless you trait 15 into trickery that’s almost your whole reserve.

The 2 regained makes for a nice balance to this. But to literally answer your question, I’d probably stop using stealth and switch to S/D and start spamming evades instead lol.

A possible idea I had to both empower and depower the trait line would be this:

Make Infusion of Shadow return only 1 initiative AND make it the 5 pts trait replacing Last Refuge.

Why it empowers the tree?

- It removes Last Refuge, an obligatory to take trait that kills you more than it helps you, and it replaces it with a synergy with the profession mechanic relating stealth (tree focus) with initiative (profession mechanic) the same way Trickery 5 points trait relates Steal (tree focus) with initaitive.

- It allows for a wider range of traits to pick, automatically giving one of the traits you would pick when building for stealth so you can wast your trait slots in others (blind on stealth, cure conditions on stealth, or some of them plus venom specialized traits).

How it depowers the tree?

- It reduces the efficiency of Infusion of Shadows. It still returns initiative but you may not be able to keep them as high as before for very long time (while still being able to keep it for a very decent amount of time).

I think this change gives and takes enough to compensate and most thieves would end up benefited enough by this (getting rid of LR and getting IoS for free which opens more space o pick traits) to compensate for the 1 initiative per stealth loss.

Lokheit.7943:

A possible idea I had to both empower and depower the trait line would be this:

Make Infusion of Shadow return only 1 initiative AND make it the 5 pts trait replacing Last Refuge.

i also think that would be a good ideea
and move the useless minor trait on adept, replacing the one lost, with and giving a decent CD like 30s

Seth.4927:

Edit: SR gives a total of 8 Initiative due to this trait, would be 4 with a cd on trait. Not cool.

actually SR procs for 5 times….activation+4subsequent seconds= ini 10 points

not only that you get your deserved/most wanted stealth nerf due to ini starvation,
but we also get rid of last refuge
both sides win

OR make it proc only if you do NOT have the stealth buff (the +2ini trait ON stealth..like when you do go to stealth, not already in it…), however this will make SR drop from 10 ini generated to 2 ini :P

i like the 1st option better if possible and it’s not hard to switch 2 skills and edit them a bit, also you shoot 2 birds with 1 stone as they say…

The idea about getting rid of Last Refuge – Yes please!!

But seriously, there’s nothing wrong with IoS. The problem is that we can stack stealth and stealth not giving us the revealed debuff wether we attack from stealth or not. That would fix a lot of the whine about thieves and it would also force is thieves to heighten our skill level and not just stealth all the time..

this would effect nothing but SPVP and thief suck in Spvp to begin with.

It would actually make me have to think using my brain when playing my D/P Thief. 3 seconds might be too much, however.

As it is now, Infusion of Shadow seems pretty broken, considering Anet presented the Thief as a class without the permastealth of other MMOs initially. It makes playing the class EZ mode now as it is.

Lokheit.7943:

A possible idea I had to both empower and depower the trait line would be this:

Make Infusion of Shadow return only 1 initiative AND make it the 5 pts trait replacing Last Refuge.

Why it empowers the tree?

- It removes Last Refuge, an obligatory to take trait that kills you more than it helps you, and it replaces it with a synergy with the profession mechanic relating stealth (tree focus) with initiative (profession mechanic) the same way Trickery 5 points trait relates Steal (tree focus) with initaitive.

- It allows for a wider range of traits to pick, automatically giving one of the traits you would pick when building for stealth so you can wast your trait slots in others (blind on stealth, cure conditions on stealth, or some of them plus venom specialized traits).

How it depowers the tree?

- It reduces the efficiency of Infusion of Shadows. It still returns initiative but you may not be able to keep them as high as before for very long time (while still being able to keep it for a very decent amount of time).

I think this change gives and takes enough to compensate and most thieves would end up benefited enough by this (getting rid of LR and getting IoS for free which opens more space o pick traits) to compensate for the 1 initiative per stealth loss.

Well, I’ll just pack my stuff and head home you just killed two birds with one stone.
Only problems I can see with this is if the player uses the trait to regain Initiative faster in Stealth, and then being able to keep up the D/P combo spamming… There are so many ways to make D/P a more enjoyable set to fight against, we just need Anet to look at it now that they are done nerfing SB to the ground.

Hmm, if Seth’s idea come into play, I would like IoS and Patience trait merge into 1 trait renamed “Master of Shadow” master trait. But this can free up one slot for rejuvenation/embrace combo which would make us kind of scarier.