Guild Wars 2

Hello,

I’ve been lately thinking about thief class and Initiative in general, checking some stuff, doing a bit of math (I’m a number junkie addicted to theorycrafting, what can I do) and I think I there are a couple of inherent flaws in the thieves Initiative system. Bear with me.

We all know how it works, but for those who do not, a quick description: Each weapon ability a thief has costs a set ammount of Initiative (Init) that must be paid to get a certain effect (fire up the skill). In turn, thieves have no cooldowns on their weapon attacks.

What this does, is it sets a constant Cost:Effect relation which is the same for a certain skill in a certain build (some builds may increase the effect of some skills and thus change their Cost:Effect relation). In case of damage skills, this leads to certain abilities that have the highest Effect for Cost rewards being used constantly because of the lack of cooldown.

This, in turn, leads to spamming these abilities and only these abilities. And honestly, why should a thief not spam them? They are directly penalized by not spamming high Cost-to-Effect ratio abilities by not doing as much with their initiative as they can. This is the reason behind Pistol Whip-spam or Heartseeker-spam builds. These are builds using the initiative to it’s fullest. But they are also the reason behind whine and flame that thieves are “one trick ponies” or “single skill gimmick” type of class.
These builds are also the reason for frustration among some thives that they are penalized for using a variety of abilities instead of spamming a single, most efficient one.

So, did noone suspect that giving a class a resource that substitutes for cooldown will lead to spamming of high Cost : Effect abilities unless something else is sorely needed to apply a certain condition or movement effect? I guess noone did.

What can be done about it? I wouldn’t have come here (a forum which I deem to be extremely friendly and constructive compared to many others) to write this wall of text if I didn’t think I might know the answer, wouldn’t I? ;-)

Take note however, that my proposal for a “fix”, as I may call it, won’t do any good unless skills will have more or less balanced basic Cost:Effect ratios. For now, this is not the case. I don’t know if Heartseeker or Pistol Whip are too strong (hard to compare raw numbers in a game less than a month old, when the only more or less bug-free, well thought-out class with a working melee-damage build of similar damage:support:control proportions is a warrior and he deals no less than a thief if not more, with more survivability), but other abilities are certainly weaker – at least quite a large portion of them.

To apply my suggestion, abilities would need to be better balanced across the board – otherwise we may restrict what is right now the only reasonable thing to do. Have this in mind while reading further.

Before I give you my thoughts, let’s see how do other games do it.
Well, our Initiative system is similar to an energy-based system. Instead of relying directly on cooldowns, these systems employ a secondary resource to limit ability use. At it’s core, such system is made to promote smart ability usage instead of keyboard bashing to use all the availible cooldowns to deal damage (in GW2 case: use up all you’ve got smart, switch weapons, use up all you’ve got smart again in a window of 10s in which you cannot switch weapons, switch up, loop). This core idea doesn’t seem to apply right now – it doesn’t promote smart ability usage, it penalizes it by making thieves “waste” Initative on suboptimal moves. Unless we assume that “smart ability usage” means “spamming the ability with best Cost:Effect ratio”.
So, in general game mechanics across the board, we have:
1. “Gated” energy systems that decrease regeneration rate of the resource with it’s usage. So if you have 50% energy, it regens a lot slower than if you had 75%. This is not a good system – it doesn’t increase variety – it just promotes spacing of ability use in time. Solves “spamming” by “not doing anything but auto-attacking”, but doesn’t really encourage you to push other buttons than the effective one.
2. We have “combo” systems that rely on yet another resource which forces the player to use different abilities to accumulate “combo points” to fire up other abilities. Why this sucks we all know (at least those who played Rogue in that other game) – this doesn’t increase variety – it pigeonholes the player into using “the only right” combinations that devs layed out for him, +/- some proc-based effects.
3. Last, we have a semi-cooldown system that prevents abilities from being overused. This may be good, but it kills the energy design and is against the idea ANet has based the thief upon. Let’s look further.

My idea is different in that it will probably encourage variety in skill use and will make thieves both more interesting and more resistant to whine about how easy they are to play. It may even decrease the number of thief QQ and promote more skillful play.

It goes as follows (take note: my numbers are a bit vague because I don’t have all the math behind skills or time to find out Cost : Effect effectiveness of each of them):
- Decrease the ammount of initiative each move costs (20% would be a good point to start testing) or increase damage of each move that costs little initiative already by a bit (again – can’t give numbers – would be a guess-game without data we don’t have),
- If a single move is used more than once in a short span of time (like 3-4x Global CD, but this is a vague number), the initiative cost increases for each time it is used – a single use will cost less than it currently does, but if it is the only move used, it will quickly cost a lot more. If the skill isn’t used for the same time the “window of increased cost” lasts + 1sec, the cost refreshes to normal value (it may gradually do so over this time).

Some skills may even have their effect decreased as the initiative cost changes (these would certainly use an overall buff before such “diminishing returns” on skill use are applied).

This should also lead to better PvE experience for newbie thieves (they would benefit from the scaling while roaming in the world unless on a boss or big target – then things would only change in favor of variety).

This system, along with tweaking abilities to have better cost:effect ratios will lead to more player decisionmaking in the process of using skills – “is the current cost of this ability worth it in this situation?” instead of “it is always worth it in any situation unless I really need this one or two other abilities that don’t deal damage but have other effects I currently need”.

So, I hope somebody made it this far and maybe my idea will be a good starting point for a discussion about Initiative, it’s pros and cons and how it may be changed to promote variety in skill use.

TL;DR: Initiative in it’s current state encourages spamming the ability which gives most damage for it’s cost, this decreases variety and fun because other abilities are only used when they have to be.
Lower the cost or increase effect for skills, apply an effect that increases their cost if they are used in a “short” (subject to discussion) window of time. This should increase variety and ability to make plays without going against thieves design.

Summarised your post in

Increase the damage/effectiveness of theif skills buy approximately 20 %
Give theif skills increased inititive cost as you use them more/try to spam them

I like this idea…. would solve pistol whip spam and what not being only able to use it like twice

Honestly, initiative isn’t a problem as is. The only people I see having problems with it are people who don’t understand the class or don’t understand the whole overarching system of guild wars 2 combat. Guild Wars 2 offers a more involved combat system, where the name of the game isn’t damage rotations but situational usage. This is true on thief even more than it is on some other classes. Something like an elementalist may have 10+ damaging abilities that they can cycle through, but a thief weaponset generally only has 1 or 2 direct damage abilities and then the other 2-3 are utility skills that a good thief will make targeted precise use of only in certain situations. People look at the damage log and only see one or two thief skills and assume that that is all the thief is doing, but it’s not, the thief just happens to have more utility on their weapon sets than direct damage skills, and a well-played thief will be be every bit as active throughout a fight as any other class is.

TLDR: damage skills appear to be spammed because the thief only has one or two. The rest is support which won’t show up in your fancy death-damage charts.

Once more and more people start getting used to the system and understand how it works, it’ll seem a lot more balanced to everyone involved with NO changes.

I read your post and what you’re suggesting reminds me of a rune resource system from another class of another game. The same BASIC idea applies here. If initiative is changed such that you have different initiative types to separate damage from utility and reduce the number of times you could press each one in quick succession, paird with incrqsing the effect of those attacks, and give a random chance on non initiative costing actions to refresh one or two of the total pool that is on cooldown for use on any skill every now and then

What you’re left with in that system is a complex cooldowns mechanic with chances for refresh but a much slower pace of usage on the most powerful offensive abilities. This makes the choice of what action to take at any given moment very meaningful. It also makes you you the opposite of an ability spamming playstyle

Shortened/simplified- what If initiative were actually a cooldown reset mechanic rather than an energy bar. The idea is already in the game in the improvisation trait. I’m actually kind of at odds with the initiative vs plain old cooldowns on our slot skills as it is.

I’m not sure the problem is that initiative encourages spamming of highest cost:effect ratio skills. The highest cost:effect skill should ideally change often depending on the situation.

My thought on the matter is the people are focusing on dps to the exclusion of all else. Now for much of the soloable pve content max dps will get you by, so people can just spam that hight ratio skill and continue. but if you find yourself outnumbered or outmatched spamming the one skill will most often just get you killed.

In those situations i find myself having to change up which skills I use on a second by second bases just to stay alive.

I think that for many people, the problem is either an disposition towards that kind of strategy or baggage from other games of the type.

People are going to have to learn that max dps is not the target, but overcoming the challenge (dps is obviously a part of this though, just not to the the exclusion of all else)

Anyway just my take on the matter.

Paradox.8563:

I’m not sure the problem is that initiative encourages spamming of highest cost:effect ratio skills. The highest cost:effect skill should ideally change often depending on the situation.

My thought on the matter is the people are focusing on dps to the exclusion of all else. Now for much of the soloable pve content max dps will get you by, so people can just spam that hight ratio skill and continue. but if you find yourself outnumbered or outmatched spamming the one skill will most often just get you killed.

In those situations i find myself having to change up which skills I use on a second by second bases just to stay alive.

I think that for many people, the problem is either an disposition towards that kind of strategy or baggage from other games of the type.

People are going to have to learn that max dps is not the target, but overcoming the challenge (dps is obviously a part of this though, just not to the the exclusion of all else)

Anyway just my take on the matter.

Precisely right. This is where I was trying to go with my ramblings, but I’m way too tired :p

Thinking about the above, it seems like all the professions in game now already play like that. They have to choose what to use to get the best effect per time spent at any given moment and manage what weapon/set to have equipped or switch to in order to maximize that efficiency.

I pointed out the very same design flaw itt: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-fundamental-design-flaws/first#post150525

I think the concept behind initiative is that we’re supposed to chose between damage and utility.

But most of our utility skills don’t actually require initiative. Initiative is only required for our 5 (10) damage attacks….and there we’ll always go with the most efficient.

A more logical solution would be to reduce the cost of the 1-5 abilities slightly, but add a cost to the 6-10 abilities.

That way you actually have to chose between damage and utility.

People ONLY pick damage because it works against all the glass cannon builds. What works now will not work against players with much higher health and toughness as effectively then you end up running for your life.

What we need is bonuses for actually comboing and mixing different skills together, more than just combo fields. where you actually deal more damage when you mix skills. Proc special effect which are triggered when doing certain things such as dodging having a certain debuff on you or a certain debuff on your enemy. Thief has some of the most uninteresting gameplay ever. You should be rewarded for mixing different skills and noticing changing battle conditions. Special effects could be anything from snare, stun, initiative return, poison, endurance gain, etc, literally anything. it would help to add more synergy to some load outs since their could be multiple proc conditions based on what type of skill you use. you don’t need a resource system for comboing. arena net could learn some things from games like league of legends where skills change based on use and combo off of each other, or have passive and active effects. the reason league of legend limited skills work is they pack so many calories of game mechanics in each of them. a lot of guild wars 2 skills are very one dimensional in comparison.

you should not be penalized for spamming. creating penalties just makes the thief gameplay even more uninteresting. rewards add gameplay, that is how the problem should be solved. other problem is arena net has stuck to cliches which just make the thief even more bland. I wish they would actually think up of some interesting skills than sticking to cliches such as poison, smoke, and blind. Designing mechanics around lore always make for boring gameplay. better to design something interesting and fit lore around it.

The closest thing we have to any kind of combo system is stealth giving you a different one slot skill, this should be expanded to other skills and be more accessible than just using stealth. Skills should literally change into a different skill if you trigger it by either dodging, applying a certain boon/condition, or you/enemy being at a certain percentage of health. that is what I met by special conditions. it should be way more interesting than just extra damage or conditions, it should be entirely new skills with interesting game mechanics. If the skills change it keeps you from being able to spam them not to mention the system would actually work with our resource system.

Rasterranger.8417:

What we need is bonuses for actually comboing and mixing different skills together, more than just combo fields. where you actually deal more damage when you mix skills. Proc special effect which are triggered when doing certain things such as dodging having a certain debuff on you or a certain debuff on your enemy. Thief has some of the most uninteresting gameplay ever. You should be rewarded for mixing different skills and noticing changing battle conditions. Special effects could be anything from snare, stun, initiative return, poison, endurance gain, etc, literally anything. it would help to add more synergy to some load outs since their could be multiple proc conditions based on what type of skill you use. you don’t need a resource system for comboing. arena net could learn some things from games like league of legends where skills change based on use and combo off of each other, or have passive and active effects. the reason league of legend limited skills work is they pack so many calories of game mechanics in each of them. a lot of guild wars 2 skills are very one dimensional in comparison.

That is true. This is not the issue that is thief-exclusive, but it applies. There is little reward for actually doing anything. Most weapon skill sets have a single skill that is “catch all, do all” and most other skills are just so inefficient that they will only be used in rare, specific conditions. Stacking various effects like CC or damaging conditions is good – it promotes variety and awareness, but when it comes to damage, it’s just like “here, have this, you use this to deal damage”. Which in turn leads to mashing one button, which most people (including me) see as boring.
I like the comparison to League of Legends – this shows how “quality” over “quantity” wins every single time. With the thief we have many weapons, many skills, with a different skill depending on main hand – off hand combination, yet we aren’t really rewarded for using any of them. If my gap closer is also my dodge move and my highest damage move and I’ve got no cooldown on it… why shouldn’t I use it exclusively unless outside conditions force me to react with something different?

Rasterranger.8417:

you should not be penalized for spamming. creating penalties just makes the thief gameplay even more uninteresting. rewards add gameplay, that is how the problem should be solved. other problem is arena net has stuck to cliches which just make the thief even more bland. I wish they would actually think up of some interesting skills than sticking to cliches such as poison, smoke, and blind. Designing mechanics around lore always make for boring gameplay. better to design something interesting and fit lore around it.

Agreed. Can’t think of any rewards that could actually be implemented. I like your ideas, but I can’t fight the notion that even in the off chance a Dev would read what we write and agree with our points nothing would change towards that direction because it’s complicated to implement right now. Thus I was sticking more to “simple math” solutions.
And I’m afraid thief devs have an allergy to giving thieves “comboing moves” due to that other game.

Honestly you people complain too much. Adapt your play style to beat these thieves. I am not glass cannon and there’s never been a thief I’ve lost to. The proper blocking, stun breaks, evasion, and dodge rolls completely displace a damage pwhip or HSeeker spamming build. Be more afraid of a skilled balanced thief who uses his or her skills appropriate to the situation. I a one of these balanced thieves and I chew glass cannons up for breakfast.

Honestly after playing a BWE, playing headstart till now, getting a thief to 80… Spvping and wvwvw… Thief current application does not really work.

Now I know this is a beaten dead horse but.. You either have to create the class around perma stealth or you have to build it around stealth being just fluff.
For instance, even with a stealth build, I find stealth duration to be 100% lacking in duration to have an ability like backstab exist where damage is based on positioning.

I like the general census of your idea to where Increasing the effectiveness and reducing the cost of the lesser used abilities, and at the same time have abilities increase in cost the more they are used in succession. Keep in mind however, that some of these lesser used abilities would have to be increased in effectiveness greatly.

To add to your system some, changes I would love to see:
——
-Backstab is renamed to Assassinate.
Base damage: 550
No longer has any positional requirements
(from 403 front, 806 back)

-Pistol Whip damage reduced by 30%, Self root has been removed, Stun has been replaced with a 1s daze.

-Animation speed(+channel speed) for Pistol whip, Slice, Slash, and Crippling strike have been quickened by roughly 25%.

-The ability Haste now only applies quickness for the next ability used (1 application) and gives the thief to cause 3 random conditions on the target with the next single ability as well. Cooldown and enduration modifications remain the same.

- Tactical strike now applies the blind and daze without positional requirement.

- Flanking strike now performs an evade and Shadowsteps behind the target.

- Vital shot animation/attack repetition speed quickened by 20%

- Black Powder now applies the smoke cloud around the target not the caster. Smoke cloud radius increased by 25%

-Cloak and Dagger range increased to 200

- Flanking strike now performs an evade and Shadowsteps behind the target.

This is the only thing you said that I agree with. Some of the others I have no opinion on. But removing positional bonuses from abilities would be a very bad move.

bwillb.2165:

- Flanking strike now performs an evade and Shadowsteps behind the target.

This is the only thing you said that I agree with. Some of the others I have no opinion on. But removing positional bonuses from abilities would be a very bad move.

Might seem like a bad move from an ONLY spvp standpoint. But in situations like PVE and wvwvw it is actually needed. It does not make sense to have positional requirements on an ability that also requires stealth in a game that is built around the opposite of perma stealth genre (and I equalized the damage on backstab to reflect the positional loss)

It makes perfect sense. The idea is to beat the clock for better damage or a better control ability. The better you play, the better the skill is.

And no, it’s not needed in PvE or WvW. The only thing needed in PvE and WvW is to tone down or remove friendly attack visual effects so you can actually see which direction the mob is facing.

I’d rather make the damage on abilities less and give you more intitative to use more then just the damage ability, which encourages faster gameplay, not slower.

Daecollo.9578:

I’d rather make the damage on abilities less and give you more intitative to use more then just the damage ability, which encourages faster gameplay, not slower.

encouraging slower gameplay would require a complete redesign of the thief class from the ground up. Otherwise you might want to play something like a Warrior. Our sword attack speed/animation speeds are already disgustingly slow for a supposed “Mobility” class. Not to mention its completely oxymoron to have an ability that self roots on said class as well

D/D and S/P are completely different.

Daecollo.9578:

D/D and S/P are completely different.

Yes they are. However minus the positional requirement on backstab, I think Dagger is in a really good spot right now. I think shortbow is in a good spot and minus the fact blinding powder is PBAOE rather then TAOE I think pistol offhand is in a good spot.

I think Sword+anything so far is completely oxymoron to our class design with animation/attack speed and self rooting
I also think pistol main hand is lacking with #1 attack viability

Knyx.5926:

Daecollo.9578:

I’d rather make the damage on abilities less and give you more intitative to use more then just the damage ability, which encourages faster gameplay, not slower.

encouraging slower gameplay would require a complete redesign of the thief class from the ground up.

A complete redesign of the whole pvp scene, to be honest. This isn’t World of ResilienceCraft. There are no pocket healers. Battles are usually quick, dirty, and brutal, even without a thief. And I don’t know about you, but I much prefer it this way. PvP in WoW was incredibly boring when you’re slinging kittens at them for ages and they don’t go down. In the current GW2 pvp you have to have quick reactions of an action game while at the same time playing out an extremely accelerated chess game in your head. It’s grand.