Guild Wars 2

I posted this in the Profession Balance but I think it’s more appropriate here.

Introducing – “Exhaustion” mechanic

What is Exhaustion?
In GW1, Elementalist has this mechanic to allow them to use explosive spell by sacrificing portion of their energy pool and after a while, they will have less energy left if they kept on using the spell with Exhaustion.

How will Exhaustion work for Thieves? – version 1 – NO GOOD
Each of the weapon skill will have an Exhaustion timer based on the Initiative cost and Exhaustion cooldown timer twice the initiative cost. If the skill is used while Exhaustion is up, the skill will cost zero Initiative but will suffer the cooldown timer.

For example;
- Heartseeker costs 3 initiatives
- Exhaustion timer for HS will be 3s that will activate when HS is used
- If Heartseeker is used while Exhaustion is up, Heartseeker will cost zero initiative but will go in 6s cooldown

- CnD costs 6 initiatives
- Exhaustion timer for CnD will be 6s
- If CnD is used while Exhaustion is up, CnD will cost zero initiative but will go on a 12s cooldown

What will this propose change do?
This will limit the abuse on and misuse of the weapon skills but it will be little or no change to those who manages their initiatives well.

============

So, OK, for an updated version (version 2)

How will Exhaustion work for Thieves? – version 2
Each of the weapon skill will function as normal and Exhaustion cooldown only applies on skills used while there’s not enough initiatives to spend equal to the initiative cost.

If the skill is used while out of Initiatives, the skill will cost zero Initiative but will suffer the cooldown timer.

For example;
- Heartseeker costs 3 initiatives
- If Heartseeker is used while you have less than 3 initiatives left, Heartseeker will cost zero initiative but will go in 3s cooldown

- CnD costs 6 initiatives
- If CnD is used while you have less than 6 initiatives left, CnD will cost zero initiative but will go on a 6s cooldown

I believe that this version will allow us to do our rotation and gives us an option if we want to push ourselves into Exhaustion.

What do you think of this version?

thieves having cd? what? lol

Silly idea.

They’ve given Thief the initiative mechanic specifically to enable them to use a skill multiple times – and the skills are balanced around this. The drawback of using any skills is that, through the shared initiative pool, the other skills can not be used as frequently, the shared initiative pool functions as a shared cool-down, the thief pays for his ability to choose to use a skill at will with the responsibility to manage this resource carefully.

Now, you propose to take away the advantage without any compensation.

You want to replace the current system so thieves are forced to rotate their weapon-skills based on their cooldowns? Why? And why would you want to change it in the first place? Poor initiative management and unfounded repeated use of a skill is already punished by reducing the availability of other skills.

its not even changing the system its adding cd making initiative useless and only for modifiers

Off the top of my head if any change i guess they could make a chain system where thieves are rewarded the more they pressure enemies.. as in landing attacks will reduce cd or something but I’m fine with the system as is

I don’t see the value in making a bunch of hidden rules that feel bad to the players when things “randomly” go on cooldown. Initiative is straightforward and pretty easy to understand.

In addition to these proposed changes, I propose that whenever a class with cooldowns is swapped to a different weapon/attunement/kit, their other cooldowns do not work.

An example: a hambo warrior uses all of their hammer abilities then swaps to bow. While they are in bow, the recharge on their hammer skills do not move. When they switch back to hammer, their bow skills stop recharging, and their hammer skills resume charging. It’s only fair since other classes can spam their abilities and then switch with no regard for resource management.

(/sarcasm)

This looked quite bad at first, but after some thinking I feel it’s among the best suggestions about changing the thief class mechanic to fit better into the game so far.

But not good enough to actually be good, since it ruins the purpose initiative had in the first place.

Good feedback so far. Now consider this. Using S/P as an example.

IS -> PW -> BP = total 15 initiatives

Assuming that your initiatives is tapped out and all 3 skills has the Exhaustion timer, what do you then?

Right now, nothing, because you have no initiative left. The proposed change will allow us to use those skills again, with zero initiative cost, but the skill will go on cooldown. Maybe the cost of putting BP on cooldown is worth it if can get you out of a jam. Maybe the cost of putting CnD on coodown is worth it if it you only need one more backstab to finish your opponent off. And so on.

Why is this important to the Thieves?
- It will remove the restriction on the weapon skills necessary for utility use. Often times, we can’t use it because we’re tapped out of initiatives.

Why is this important to other profession?
- It will allow other professions to counter Thieves using Chill and other interrupt.

Where’s the compensation?
- It will have to be discussed in another thread. This thread’s purpose is to gather opinion on this proposal.

Horrible idea.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

*Why is this important to the Thieves?

Why is this important to other profession?
- It will allow other professions to counter Thieves using Chill and other interrupt.

I always dislike the argument that chill doesn’t affect thieves. Our utilities, elite, and heal all get slowed down as well as our movement speed. The only thing unaffected is weapon skills without physical movement attached (since heartseeker and deathblossom are affected in terms of range).

Also if they wanted thief weapon skills to be interruptable, they could just make them interruptable like they did by mistake with the new mesmer GM trait. Since they fixed that rather quickly, it’s apparent that they think the loss in initiative enough (I didn’t mind this effect, but apparently they thought it too powerful).

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I posted this in the Profession Balance but I think it’s more appropriate here.

Introducing – “Exhaustion” mechanic

What is Exhaustion?
In GW1, Elementalist has this mechanic to allow them to use explosive spell by sacrificing portion of their energy pool and after a while, they will have less energy left if they kept on using the spell with Exhaustion.

How will Exhaustion work for Thieves?
Each of the weapon skill will have an Exhaustion timer based on the Initiative cost and Exhaustion cooldown timer twice the initiative cost. If the skill is used while Exhaustion is up, the skill will cost zero Initiative but will suffer the cooldown timer.

For example;
- Heartseeker costs 3 initiatives
- Exhaustion timer for HS will be 3s that will activate when HS is used
- If Heartseeker is used while Exhaustion is up, Heartseeker will cost zero initiative but will go in 6s cooldown

- CnD costs 6 initiatives
- Exhaustion timer for CnD will be 6s
- If CnD is used while Exhaustion is up, CnD will cost zero initiative but will go on a 12s cooldown

What will this propose change do?
This will limit the abuse on and misuse of the weapon skills but it will be little or no change to those who manages their initiatives well.

What do you guys think?

Carrying over my response from the previous thread.

"
It’s an interesting thought, but the thief wasn’t balanced around this initially. It’ll take a profession revamp to implement this properly, which the thief doesn’t need.
"

This a joke or something? Did you consider PvE(not everyone there wants to play like a pro, you know)? What about D/D condi builds? P/P power? I can go on with the list, but I won’t even bother – I got these 3 cases under 30s of thought.

Let’s be constructive here and really think about it before you comment. If Anet will have to make changes to discourage the Thieves who spams skills, this may be closer to reality than we think since there’s no other way to satisfy both sides.

Note that this is based on the big “IF”.

What would be helpful is sharing how will this affect your current build.

What situations that this will disrupt your rotation.

Perhaps reducing the the Exhaustion timer to 1s and the cooldown to match the initiative cost will suffice (3init = 3s)? Or make the cooldown flat across the board?

I know that many of you dislike the idea but it would be helpful to share the details on why you dislike the idea.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Let’s be constructive here and really think about it before you comment. If Anet will have to make changes to discourage the Thieves who spams skills, this may be closer to reality than we think since there’s no other way to satisfy both sides.

Note that this is based on the big “IF”.

What would be helpful is sharing how will this affect your current build.

What situations that this will disrupt your rotation.

Perhaps reducing the the Exhaustion timer to 1s and the cooldown to match the initiative cost will suffice (3init = 3s)? Or make the cooldown flat across the board?

I know that many of you dislike the idea but it would be helpful to share the details on why you dislike the idea.

It’s really not worth discussing when you’re okay with the thief as is.

frans.8092:

They’ve given Thief the initiative mechanic specifically to enable them to use a skill multiple times – and the skills are balanced around this. The drawback of using any skills is that, through the shared initiative pool, the other skills can not be used as frequently, the shared initiative pool functions as a shared cool-down, the thief pays for his ability to choose to use a skill at will with the responsibility to manage this resource carefully.

Now, you propose to take away the advantage without any compensation.

You want to replace the current system so thieves are forced to rotate their weapon-skills based on their cooldowns? Why? And why would you want to change it in the first place? Poor initiative management and unfounded repeated use of a skill is already punished by reducing the availability of other skills.

I must agree with this. The punishment for spamming is already present.

I think this would only make resource management harder for thieves while having only marginal effect on executed gameplay. In the case of CnD it would give six secs of exhaustion, the skill gives 3 or 4 secs of stealth and the following attack gives 3 or 4 secs of revealed. So you already have a similar “cooldown” on a sneak attack (and it’s similar with the blackpowder + HS cheese).
This would only punish terribad HS spammers (and would deprive me of the pleasure of seeing them bunnyhopping through the fields when they lose target) and would not mitigate the thief hate.

MarauderShields.6830:

I think this would only make resource management harder for thieves while having only marginal effect on executed gameplay. In the case of CnD it would give six secs of exhaustion, the skill gives 3 or 4 secs of stealth and the following attack gives 3 or 4 secs of revealed. So you already have a similar “cooldown” on a sneak attack (and it’s similar with the blackpowder + HS cheese).
This would only punish terribad HS spammers (and would deprive me of the pleasure of seeing them bunnyhopping through the fields when they lose target) and would not mitigate the thief hate.

This is not only to punish the skill spammers but to allow the use of a skill when Initiatives are tapped out at the cost of putting it in cooldown.

Just like you said, CnD will be off the Exhaustion when stealth time and revealed time are considered. This is what I meant by not directly affecting those who uses the skills tactically. However, for those who choose to CnD as soon as they go off stealth will have to suffer the Exhaustion cooldown timer.

Sneak attack and Auto-attack will be unaffected since they don’t have Initiative cost.

Another idea that is tied to this that I have thought of is to redesign Improvisation that instead of resetting utility skills at random, it can remove all Exhaustion cooldown on skills. Quick Recovery can instead reduce the Exhaustion cooldown by 20%. Etc. I think that it will open up a lot of opportunity for improving the Thief playstyle.

As of now, it’s in a sad state being pigeon holed into certain build. I honestly do not believe that anyone will be just OK with this.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sneak attack and Auto-attack will be unaffected since they don’t have Initiative cost.

Not true, no Sneak Attack without Cloak & Dagger. You should know better then to post this crap.

frans.8092:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sneak attack and Auto-attack will be unaffected since they don’t have Initiative cost.

Not true, no Sneak Attack without Cloak & Dagger. You should know better then to post this crap.

Let’s not drag this down in the gutter using senseless posts.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

frans.8092:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sneak attack and Auto-attack will be unaffected since they don’t have Initiative cost.

Not true, no Sneak Attack without Cloak & Dagger. You should know better then to post this crap.

Let’s not drag this down in the gutter using senseless posts.

The senseless post is yours, albeit a concealed. Everyone playing a thief for more then 2 days knows you need stealth for Sneak Attack and in practical applications that means Cloak & Dagger precedes it. So, yes, saying Sneak Attack is unaffected because it doesn’t use initiative is misleading crap, and, in a way, insulting and it degrades your opinions and post in general.

frans.8092:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

frans.8092:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sneak attack and Auto-attack will be unaffected since they don’t have Initiative cost.

Not true, no Sneak Attack without Cloak & Dagger. You should know better then to post this crap.

Let’s not drag this down in the gutter using senseless posts.

The senseless post is yours, albeit a concealed. Everyone playing a thief for more then 2 days knows you need stealth for Sneak Attack and in practical applications that means Cloak & Dagger precedes it. So, yes, saying Sneak Attack is unaffected because it doesn’t use initiative is misleading crap, and, in a way, insulting and it degrades your opinions and post in general.

Let’s see if you’re making any sense.

Let’s say Exhaustion exists, then I used CnD → Sneak attack, what happens next?

- CnD gets an Exhaustion timer (X-timer) of 6s while I am in stealth
- If I stay in stealth the whole time, that will make CnD’s X-timer down to 3s — 2s if traited with Meld with Shadows
- If I used a Sneak Attack, it will grant me Revealed debuff for 3s — 4s in PvP
- By the time the Revealed debuff wears off, CnD is off the X-timer, thus it won’t go into cooldown

So please, I urge you to stop your senseless posts. You’re only derailing the thread.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Let’s see if you’re making any sense.

Let’s say Exhaustion exists, then I used CnD -> Sneak attack, what happens next?

- CnD gets an Exhaustion timer (X-timer) of 6s while I am in stealth
- If I stay in stealth the whole time, that will make CnD’s X-timer down to 3s — 2s if traited with Meld with Shadows
- If I used a Sneak Attack, it will grant me Revealed debuff for 3s — 4s in PvP
- By the time the Revealed debuff wears off, CnD is off the X-timer, thus it won’t go into cooldown

So please, I urge you to stop your senseless posts. You’re only derailing the thread.

Ah, but there is a big problem, you are forced to stay in stealth to match the cooldown, a 6 seconds cooldown = 3 seconds Revealed + 3 seconds stealth. Cooldowns now determine which skills you can use. Plus, without your cooldown I could Sneak Attack, move around or do whatever through revealed (3 seconds) C&D and Sneak Attack, possible with a Sneak Attack every 3 seconds. Your cooldown has just cut the effectiveness of Sneak Attack in half.

No matter what way you look at it, it does affect Sneak Attack. Does that make sense? Or is offering a reasonable critique on your suggestion simply dismissed as ‘derailing’ a thread?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

- CnD gets an Exhaustion timer (X-timer) of 6s while I am in stealth
- If I stay in stealth the whole time, that will make CnD’s X-timer down to 3s — 2s if traited with Meld with Shadows
- If I used a Sneak Attack, it will grant me Revealed debuff for 3s — 4s in PvP
- By the time the Revealed debuff wears off, CnD is off the X-timer, thus it won’t go into cooldown

What about standart cnd>stealth attack>auto chain>cnd>… rotations in PvE? Even disregarding them – with this post you are basically saying “play more passive and stay longer in stealth”. I don’t see advantage/logic here in any way, shape, or form.

Pavel.8531:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

- CnD gets an Exhaustion timer (X-timer) of 6s while I am in stealth
- If I stay in stealth the whole time, that will make CnD’s X-timer down to 3s — 2s if traited with Meld with Shadows
- If I used a Sneak Attack, it will grant me Revealed debuff for 3s — 4s in PvP
- By the time the Revealed debuff wears off, CnD is off the X-timer, thus it won’t go into cooldown

What about standart cnd>stealth attack>auto chain>cnd>… rotations in PvE? Even disregarding them – with this post you are basically saying “play more passive and stay longer in stealth”. I don’t see advantage/logic here in any way, shape, or form.

The number of seconds used for the timer is nothing but a place holder that can be tweaked during testing, it’s just a starting point.

As I’ve mentioned HERE , this can open opportunities to improve many of the existing traits.

As for the advantage, I mentioned it HERE

frans.8092:

Ah, but there is a big problem, you are forced to stay in stealth to match the cooldown, a 6 seconds cooldown = 3 seconds Revealed + 3 seconds stealth. Cooldowns now determine which skills you can use. Plus, without your cooldown I could Sneak Attack, move around or do whatever through revealed (3 seconds) C&D and Sneak Attack, possible with a Sneak Attack every 3 seconds. Your cooldown has just cut the effectiveness of Sneak Attack in half.

No matter what way you look at it, it does affect Sneak Attack. Does that make sense? Or is offering a reasonable critique on your suggestion simply dismissed as ‘derailing’ a thread?

You’re argument is senseless because you’re arguing about the timer duration even though I’ve mentioned HERE that these numbers are nothing but a starting point and can be changed. And also I mentioned HERE that this can open opportunities to make some trait viable by using them to offset the timers.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

frans.8092:

Ah, but there is a big problem, you are forced to stay in stealth to match the cooldown, a 6 seconds cooldown = 3 seconds Revealed + 3 seconds stealth. Cooldowns now determine which skills you can use. Plus, without your cooldown I could Sneak Attack, move around or do whatever through revealed (3 seconds) C&D and Sneak Attack, possible with a Sneak Attack every 3 seconds. Your cooldown has just cut the effectiveness of Sneak Attack in half.

No matter what way you look at it, it does affect Sneak Attack. Does that make sense? Or is offering a reasonable critique on your suggestion simply dismissed as ‘derailing’ a thread?

You’re argument is senseless because you’re arguing about the timer duration even though …

The only right timer value is ZERO seconds.

But I am pretty certain you set it to the amount of initiative spend (in seconds) and twice that amount as penalty.

Setting it to 1 second base and init-cost penalty would be reason for more QQ – as currently the regeneration is about 1 init per second and people will find ways to abuse it.

In short, your proposal in original form goes against the entire concept behind initiative of having a non-timer based restriction, it would wreck yet another weapon-set, while the softened form would get nerfed back to the original form rather fast.

And it violates the KISS principle in a most brutal way.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This is not only to punish the skill spammers but to allow the use of a skill when Initiatives are tapped out at the cost of putting it in cooldown.

Just like you said, CnD will be off the Exhaustion when stealth time and revealed time are considered. This is what I meant by not directly affecting those who uses the skills tactically. However, for those who choose to CnD as soon as they go off stealth will have to suffer the Exhaustion cooldown timer.

Sneak attack and Auto-attack will be unaffected since they don’t have Initiative cost.

Another idea that is tied to this that I have thought of is to redesign Improvisation that instead of resetting utility skills at random, it can remove all Exhaustion cooldown on skills. Quick Recovery can instead reduce the Exhaustion cooldown by 20%. Etc. I think that it will open up a lot of opportunity for improving the Thief playstyle.

As of now, it’s in a sad state being pigeon holed into certain build. I honestly do not believe that anyone will be just OK with this.

I’m with you regarding the supression of skill spam but these changes wouldn’t change the playstyle of most builds (and they would still be considered OP by new players) and would add a lot of “instagib-potential” due to the ability of making 1-trick-ponies 1-trick-ponies that can use their trick twice. While I do think a lot of people would appreciate the increased strategic gameplay, I am positive that it will lead to thief-QQ skyrocketing.

So what I see is you trying to stop skill spammers? We’ll, in all honesty people who spam skills are bad and have awful initiative managent. This whole post is just another nerf to the class because you can’t kill “spammers”.

Ok, let’s lay out the problems I’m trying to address. Note that when I mention “utility skill” I am talking about the utility skill built into the weapon set.

1. After the initial burst, we’re tapped out of initiative to use any of our utility skills
2. Swapping weapon sets are meaningless since we only have one Initiative pool
3. To have any meaningful DPS is to spam a certain skill
4. Certain portion of the initiative pool are reserved for utility skill which limits our DPS potential
5. The fact that our skills are spammable that we’ll never see any meaningful buffs to our weapon skills
6. Because of the cost/benefit ratio, certain builds are more initiative efficient which leads to pigeon holing every Thief to run the same build

If Exhaustion is not the answer, then what is?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ok, let’s lay out the problems I’m trying to address. Note that when I mention “utility skill” I am talking about the utility skill built into the weapon set.

1. After the initial burst, we’re tapped out of initiative to use any of our utility skills
2. Swapping weapon sets are meaningless since we only have one Initiative pool
3. To have any meaningful DPS is to spam a certain skill
4. Certain portion of the initiative pool are reserved for utility skill which limits our DPS potential
5. The fact that our skills are spammable that we’ll never see any meaningful buffs to our weapon skills
6. Because of the cost/benefit ratio, certain builds are more initiative efficient which leads to pigeon holing every Thief to run the same build

If Exhaustion is not the answer, then what is?

Resource management is the answer, which is what thieves already do.

Initiative spammers are punished fairly.

Those who manage their resources properly are rewarded fairly.

Shockwave.1230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ok, let’s lay out the problems I’m trying to address. Note that when I mention “utility skill” I am talking about the utility skill built into the weapon set.

1. After the initial burst, we’re tapped out of initiative to use any of our utility skills
2. Swapping weapon sets are meaningless since we only have one Initiative pool
3. To have any meaningful DPS is to spam a certain skill
4. Certain portion of the initiative pool are reserved for utility skill which limits our DPS potential
5. The fact that our skills are spammable that we’ll never see any meaningful buffs to our weapon skills
6. Because of the cost/benefit ratio, certain builds are more initiative efficient which leads to pigeon holing every Thief to run the same build

If Exhaustion is not the answer, then what is?

Resource management is the answer, which is what thieves already do.

Initiative spammers are punished fairly.

Those who manage their resources properly are rewarded fairly.

How exactly does that solve the problems I’ve listed?

1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 aren’t problems with any Sword or Dagger main hand set, or the P/D set.

6 is somewhat of an issue on the P/P and D/D sets.

There’s no problems to solve for the class as a whole from that list when they aren’t problems for the class.

Shockwave.1230:

1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 aren’t problems with any Sword or Dagger main hand set, or the P/D set.

6 is somewhat of an issue on the P/P and D/D sets.

There’s no problems to solve for the class as a whole from that list when they aren’t problems for the class.

Ah I see, your approach to the problem is to turn a blind eye.

Dagger main-hand doesn’t spam Heartseeker at 50% to maximize DPS per Initiative spent. Or Pistol Whip for the same reason.

I get it. Thanks for your magnificent insight.

Can I just say… Please don’t.

Initiative is meant to allow you flexibility. If cooldowns were added you might as well just remove initiative all together, because it would no longer serve the purpose it was designed for. Initiative gives you flexibility because there is NO cooldown. It’s also one of the main reasons I main the thief. And before you say anything, stealth is the last reason I play it.

This idea would seriously ruin the flow of the thief and it is this flow that any thief player enjoys the most. So, no, exhaustion is a very bad idea imo.

What if cooldowns only apply if you’re tapped out of initiative?

This way, you can do whatever combination you want and choose to Exhaust yourself by activating the same skills for zero initiative and putting them in a cooldown.

So, OK, for an updated version (version 2)

How will Exhaustion work for Thieves?
Each of the weapon skill will function as normal and Exhaustion cooldown only applies on skills used while there’s not enough initiatives to spend equal to the initiative cost.

If the skill is used while out of Initiatives, the skill will cost zero Initiative but will suffer the cooldown timer.

For example;
- Heartseeker costs 3 initiatives
- If Heartseeker is used while you have less than 3 initiatives left, Heartseeker will cost zero initiative but will go in 3s cooldown

- CnD costs 6 initiatives
- If CnD is used while you have less than 6 initiatives left, CnD will cost zero initiative but will go on a 6s cooldown

I believe that this version will allow us to do our rotation and gives us an option if we want to push ourselves into Exhaustion.

What do you think of this version?

Part of the reason exhaustion worked in GW1 is because a lot of the exhaustion skills were a bit more powerful than the standard skills, so it was a kind of trade off. You used more effort to create more powerful spells but exhausted yourself in the process.

The thief’s skills are balanced around the idea they can be used repeatedly, so any hinderance to that would only work as a punishment, with no real reward. Or certainly not a reward worth the effort.

Lets say you have 5 initiative left and in the heat of battle you use C&D, thinking it is ready. Because after all you will try to time it to get maximum use of your initiative and to get that defensive stealth strike as soon as possible, hell you may even spam the button to cast it as soon as possible. But because you timed it a second, or even a fraction of a second, too soon you now have 6 initiative but a C&D on a 6 second cooldown.

Now, you could argue that you can at least use the ini for another skill, but it just seems such a hefty penalty for quite a minor mistake and for no extra gain. If you are going to exhaust yourself you should really get some benefit out of it. Other professions do not get exhausted if all their skills are on cooldown at the same time, so why should the thief when their initiative (their global cooldown) runs out?

To me the initiative system is fine as it is. If there is any problem with the abuse of skills, then it is down to each skill, not the initiative system. I get the impression that a lot of this has come about due to things such as perma stealth and heartseeker spam, but I have seen these tactics melt into insignificance when facing skilled players who know how to counter them.

I really don’t like saying learn to play, but a lot of the time it really is a case of learning how to counter certain skills, mechaincs and tactics. I’m not saying all skills/mechanics are balanced, they’re not, but I do not believe such a drastic change, to an entire system, is the way to fix things. They would only have to re-balance our entire selection of weapon skills to take account of exhaustion. And that could potentially end up making things worse.

So, while it is a nice idea in theory, and I commend your efforts in trying to find an interesting solution to perceived problems, I truly do not think exhaustion is the answer. Not for the thief’s initiative system anyway.

I’ve said it in other posts and I’ll say it again here. The best and simplest way to prevent perma stealth is to trigger ‘Reveal’ EVERY time you exit stealth. Seriously, I don’t get why it is not like that already!

As to Heartseeker spam, maybe the the targets health could effect the initiative cost, so that the lower the target’s health the more it costs. So players would have to be a bit more careful with how much they use it, but it would still be an effective tool to finish off an opponent or closing the gap early on in a fight. For example, for each stage of the damage the ini cost would be 3, 4 and 5. It would influence the use of Heartseeker without removing or punishing the use of it too drastically. Also, you could still use it as an effective mobility tool when no target is selected.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 aren’t problems with any Sword or Dagger main hand set, or the P/D set.

6 is somewhat of an issue on the P/P and D/D sets.

There’s no problems to solve for the class as a whole from that list when they aren’t problems for the class.

Ah I see, your approach to the problem is to turn a blind eye.

Dagger main-hand doesn’t spam Heartseeker at 50% to maximize DPS per Initiative spent. Or Pistol Whip for the same reason.

I get it. Thanks for your magnificent insight.

Please look through the numerous PvP tournaments that have been recorded. It’d be best to start with the most recent ones first as they are more indicative of what gameplay works now. When you find a winning tourney team with a thief Heartseeker or Pistol Whip spamming the whole game let me know.

http://www.twitch.tv/blu42/profile/pastBroadcasts

Rin.1046:

~snip~
Lets say you have 5 initiative left and in the heat of battle you use C&D, thinking it is ready.
~snip~
But because you timed it a second, or even a fraction of a second, too soon you now have 6 initiative but a C&D on a 6 second cooldown.

~snip~
If you are going to exhaust yourself you should really get some benefit out of it
~snip~

There is a benefit and because of the benefit, something like Exhaustion has to be the trade-off. The benefit is, at the point of not having initiatives, typically after a burst rotation, you have nothing left to use for (weapon) utility skills especially when your non-weapon utility skill are in cooldown. Exhaustion allows you to use that CnD for zero initiatives but will put it in cooldown.

Another benefit is that, you can swap weapon sets, put all of the skills in this set in cooldown, then swap back to your main weapon set. Without Initiatives or Exhaustion, you are denied from taking advantage of tactical weapon swapping.

In your scenario, even if you “accidentally” put CnD in cooldown, you still get the expected result. It’s not like CnD will failed and put it in cooldown, so it’s not a punishment at all.

To me the initiative system is fine as it is. If there is any problem with the abuse of skills, then it is down to each skill, not the initiative system. I get the impression that a lot of this has come about due to things such as perma stealth and heartseeker spam, but I have seen these tactics melt into insignificance when facing skilled players who know how to counter them.

This idea did started to limit the spam, yes, and to give Thieves option to use their secondary weapon set even without initiatives for tactical purposes. But after a few inputs, I think we can do away with limiting the spam and focus more on giving us access to our secondary weapon set.

I’ve said it in other posts and I’ll say it again here. The best and simplest way to prevent perma stealth is to trigger ‘Reveal’ EVERY time you exit stealth. Seriously, I don’t get why it is not like that already!

“Stealth” and “Revealed” will have to be for another topic.

As to Heartseeker spam, maybe the the targets health could effect the initiative cost, so that the lower the target’s health the more it costs. So players would have to be a bit more careful with how much they use it, but it would still be an effective tool to finish off an opponent or closing the gap early on in a fight.

For example, for each stage of the damage the ini cost would be 3, 4 and 5. It would influence the use of Heartseeker without removing or punishing the use of it too drastically. Also, you could still use it as an effective mobility tool when no target is selected.

If that will be the case, then it will cost no Initiatives to use it for travelling. Right?

However that’s not going to work because in order for that to be acceptable is to double the damage of HS per threshold, otherwise the incrementing cost is not justifiable.

But that’s for another topic.

so,what you mean is to have extra evade on thief? no no no no one would except it.