Guild Wars 2

I have recently gone back to D/P getting ready to offset Rifle for testing in the expansion.

However, almost every backstab I do crits for about 7-8k…..this makes it hardly seem worth the setup.

Yes, backstab back in the stay critting for 14-15k was OP. But now it hardly seems worth doing, especially when it’s basically a 1 try thing with the new CD to backstab attempts. I mean….I can do 1 unload for 8k with no setup and repeat it 5 times lol.

At first I thought maybe I was just using it on heavy targets, but even against Ele and other thief’s it’kittenting for about 8.5k…..

This is with Marauder ammy…..

Am I missing something that BS requires now….or is it just bad now?

I don’t know how 7-8k is not worth it. I’ve been playing al ot of games as thief lately (hoping to main in pvp come PoF) and have done some messing around with BS to make sure I’m doing it right. I am, of course, nowhere near an authority or any such thing on the matter, but I’ve found it always worth the extra effort needed to land.

I don’t think the strength of BS is in the straight up damage, like Unload might be. It’s that you can stealth, steal, and heartseaker all in one go for a pretty heft chunk of damage. That’s…What, 10k+ in about a second, plus you get boons, steal boons, heal a bit, deal damage, and daze.

Edit: And if you’re lucky, interrupt for around 1500 more damage from PI.

But yes, Unload is probably better against people who don’t know what they’re doing, whereas BS is better against people who’ll just lel, laugh and smash your face in while you try to Unload spam.

You are lucky dude. I sometimes get 5K Backstabs… Anyway getting a 8K backstab is pretty good because if you can repeat it with Blinding Powder + Backstab combo it would instantly down some players

Wait what, worth it? You get backstab for free. What are you going to do, not use backstab when pushing 1 from stealth?

And it still does absolutely insane damage in WvW, I have seen 10K+ hits on 2000 toughness.

It’s a damage loss. AA is better unless you’re trying to bypass some kind of hp-based proc trait or enemy proc that depends on them being hit (repeatedly). On D/P especially, it’s usually wiser to just Shadow Shot to end stealth and deal some good damage + blind + gap close and follow up with AA.

I mean, with the right setup and some patience, you can drop some 15k+ damage with it, depending on the targets armor, traits, and boons. That alone makes it worth it from me. Plus when you drop that high damage, everyone is so kitten used to the 7k-8k setups, they’re utterly confused as to where the damage came from.

Screenshot

Edit : Screenshot just for general reference. Setup is Berserker Ammy, Scholar Runes, Battle/Exposure with CS (3:2:1)/DA (2:1:2)/DD (1:1:3), with Bound Active, Assassin Sig, 19 Might and 20 Vuln.

DeceiverX.8361:

It’s a damage loss. AA is better unless you’re trying to bypass some kind of hp-based proc trait or enemy proc that depends on them being hit (repeatedly). On D/P especially, it’s usually wiser to just Shadow Shot to end stealth and deal some good damage + blind + gap close and follow up with AA.

It’s never a damage loss, WTF are you on. Do you even bother to check coefficients on the wiki?

Deceiver had it spot on, shadow shot > backstab almost always in PvP. In Wvw it could be argued both ways however imo. The cost of a backstab is absurd, when compared per ini used.

vault, vault, vault

is sad how once upon a time used to be the strongest attack in the game has fallen below average.

requires too much to set up for 7-8k

ironically, i refuse to give up my d/d thief . keeps the haters on their toes

Zenith.7301:

DeceiverX.8361:

It’s a damage loss. AA is better unless you’re trying to bypass some kind of hp-based proc trait or enemy proc that depends on them being hit (repeatedly). On D/P especially, it’s usually wiser to just Shadow Shot to end stealth and deal some good damage + blind + gap close and follow up with AA.

It’s never a damage loss, WTF are you on. Do you even bother to check coefficients on the wiki?

Per unit of time when factoring in the long pre-cast and aftercast delays, backstab deals less damage than the AA chain does alone. One cast of SS and the AA chain thereafter will deal more damage faster than using backstab assuming subsequent hits are necessary, which since signets (namely Assassin’s Signet) is nerfed, there isn’t a OHKO backstab build in the game against most builds without depending on substantial attacking uptime prior… in which case the target is quite likely to already be dead.

With the ICD on stealth attacks, it’s often downright unfavorable to bother unless you have the assurance it’ll land, as well as having a reason to use it over the AA chain (like skipping a proc passive etc.)

DeceiverX, I feel like you are trolling people here…

How can Backstab deal less damage than AA chain, if Backstab and Lotus Strike have same 1/4 cast time? Actually Lotus Strike also have long pre-cast and aftercast delay and damage wise Backstab + 2 AAs > 2 AAs + Lotus Strike, while using same amount of time.

As for SS + AAs – it is a good option for mid-combat, but never for openning strike. Yes, there are different situations on sPvP or WvW, but most of the time as thief with D/P you want to enter stealth, stack Lead, use Basilisk Venom and Backstab enemy with Steal from distance. And then depending on situation you keep AA or disengage and reengage with SS + AAs.

Also Shadow Shot + Backstab is still there and it is viable, when your Steal is on cd.

On topic:
Yes, Backstab is still completely viable and with right build on WvW you can easily 1HKO paper players with Backstab, while having good chunk of HP and good dueling potential. The most simple way is to just get full Marauder set. More complicated way is to swap some armor for Valkyrie and some accessories for Berserk + Valkyrie stats. Also always use food/utilities for power. And always stack Bloodlust from sigil.

For sPvP P/P build imo better than D/P just b/c you can’t properly itemize thief on sPvP, so he lacks power stat super hard, while P/P allows you to get 25 stacks in no time. Also arena is kinda chaotic – half of the time people just don’t dodge or block your Unload, so you deal insane damage. This more likely won’t happen, when you roam on WvW.

Even though it’s been nerfed, and I think this was by far the most uncalled for and idiotic nerf you could ever do to a class designed to catch people out, it is still worth the effort.

It’s a good chunk of damage, and soon Deadeye will actually help it out quite a bit with the malice mechanic giving anywhere between 3-21% damage increase in drawn out combat.

Backstab is definitely worth it, as it can potentially give you a 7k headstart in a fight. That you can do this several times is icing.

backstab always worth it if you can make it work.

Firiat.6308:

DeceiverX, I feel like you are trolling people here…

How can Backstab deal less damage than AA chain, if Backstab and Lotus Strike have same 1/4 cast time? Actually Lotus Strike also have long pre-cast and aftercast delay and damage wise Backstab + 2 AAs > 2 AAs + Lotus Strike, while using same amount of time.

As for SS + AAs – it is a good option for mid-combat, but never for openning strike. Yes, there are different situations on sPvP or WvW, but most of the time as thief with D/P you want to enter stealth, stack Lead, use Basilisk Venom and Backstab enemy with Steal from distance. And then depending on situation you keep AA or disengage and reengage with SS + AAs.

Also Shadow Shot + Backstab is still there and it is viable, when your Steal is on cd.

He’s talking about the aftercast on backstab. Shadow Shot into auto attack is in general better because you’ll land 3-4 attacks from shadow shot and the first Duel Strike and Wild Strike, you also have the added benefit of getting through more blinds and blocks with more hits.

Backstab isn’t the go to best thing to use. It’s situationally better and Shadow Shot into auto attack chain is situationally better.

Right, and aside from the situations which I already mentioned, SS-> AA is more reliable and does more damage in the same time frame outside of PvE which is dependent on maximizing 15 stacks of LA which CnD does better per unit of time (and D/D’s AA hits slightly harder from higher weapon damage in the offhand). But the OP talks about D/P, anyways.

DeceiverX.8361:

It’s a damage loss. AA is better unless you’re trying to bypass some kind of hp-based proc trait or enemy proc that depends on them being hit (repeatedly). On D/P especially, it’s usually wiser to just Shadow Shot to end stealth and deal some good damage + blind + gap close and follow up with AA.

Huh? How is just Shadow Shot into AA better than stowing Shadow Shot melee hit and going into Backstab?

I find backstab useful in one specific case :

You burnt your initiative down and you have a target with low hp running away. he is low and on cooldown as well but you know he will heal soon ( best example is an engi with 25% hp ). The only thing you have left to burst really quick is an offensive blind powder + backstab combo.

YuiRS.8129:

DeceiverX.8361:

It’s a damage loss. AA is better unless you’re trying to bypass some kind of hp-based proc trait or enemy proc that depends on them being hit (repeatedly). On D/P especially, it’s usually wiser to just Shadow Shot to end stealth and deal some good damage + blind + gap close and follow up with AA.

Huh? How is just Shadow Shot into AA better than stowing Shadow Shot melee hit and going into Backstab?

Because the Shadow Shot’s damage doesn’t land if you do this (just the blind/teleport), and the aftercast delay from backstab into a follow-up hit is greater than the timing between Shadow Shot into the AA chain, which in terms of damage-per-time deals more.

The only case for Backstab on D/P given the huge powercreep to the thief’s dagger AA chain (due to the rest of the HoT powercreep) is to get around hit-or-health-based procs if it has the damage to slip around them. You won’t proc Defy Pain, for example, if you kill the target from 51% hp to 0. Shadow Shot into AA otherwise does more damage, faster, with more consistency, and doesn’t cause your AA chain to go on cooldown if you whiff (based on any number of things like blinds/blocks/invulns/etc.), which either forces extra initiative use for a the reveal to keep applying pressure, cuts your intended burst altogether, or causes you to get nuked from not securing said kill and letting the opponent react.

The best opener onpt is from stealth backstab, otherwise its just tickle tickle lose the cooldown game

The correct question is if Cloak and Dagger is worth it anymore and the answers been no for a while.

An 8k backstab is very good for pressure and or execute when you’ve gotten your target to blow their cooldowns. In order to get the juicy 5 digit backstabs i think it’s fair that you would need to use d/d for the vulnerability and combo, while d/p should remain as a stealth/control set with smaller backstabs.