Guild Wars 2

I now rarely if ever see builds that don’t have the daredevil tree incorporated, are builds without it not viable now or as viable? What does that say about the spec? Is it that good or is it just it gave thieves what they should have had in one tree making it almost essential?

IMO, the extra dodge bar and the different GM dodge effect should be baseline to the profession, no traits required, just something unique the Thief brings to the table. Only because it’s too good that any other Elite Spec in the future will fail in comparison.

Nowadays, I can’t see myself without the extra dodge and Dash. It’ll just never be the same without them.

Yes, it’s mandatory. The class isn’t worth it without and is barely worth it with.

I went back in wvw as I found my build/the other lines I need don’t synergize well with DrD.
Problem I have: I need at least one damage line. Trickery is pretty much mandatory because of the initative and interrupt – also some nice damage which has been taken from SA – the third line I need, otherwise I die to condis within seconds.

Daredevil provides excellent condition removal though

reikken.4961:

Daredevil provides excellent condition removal though

Try it against a condi necro.

ETA: (note to self – never post when a patch is happening)
I’m a D/D thief – that is a problem – I have to be close on my enemy = what is enough for a staff or D/P thief isn’t enough for me.
And: I’m still a power thief – no fan of D/D condi.

For a non-condi build, Dare Devil is required now IMO. The only thing that makes the thief worth playing is the ridiculous amount of travel and escape available to the Dare Devil. Staff is also one of the few solid weapon sets available to the thief.

I’ve been playing SA DD Trickery on S/P recently (tanky brawler type spec with good lockdown, swap SA for DA when stealth not essential), I’d say DD is as essential as Trickery for a non-condi thief.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

IMO, the extra dodge bar and the different GM dodge effect should be baseline to the profession, no traits required, just something unique the Thief brings to the table. Only because it’s too good that any other Elite Spec in the future will fail in comparison.

Nowadays, I can’t see myself without the extra dodge and Dash. It’ll just never be the same without them.

Honestly, without massive buffs to core thief, every future spec will have to incorporate some hardcore base defensive mechanics, but I can think of several that would stand up to the dodges.

Forms, feign death regens, actual blocking, spammable shadowsteps, etc.

There’s going to be a lot of interesting choices to make once people have to treat the elite spec system the way it was designed.

Jana.6831:

reikken.4961:

Daredevil provides excellent condition removal though

Try it against a condi necro.

ETA: (note to self – never post when a patch is happening)
I’m a D/D thief – that is a problem – I have to be close on my enemy = what is enough for a staff or D/P thief isn’t enough for me.
And: I’m still a power thief – no fan of D/D condi.

D/D is arguably better for the condition removal on DD than D/P. Death Blossom being buffed so massively in terms of the evade allows it to be a free evade to trigger Escapist’s Absolution quite frequently without needing to burn a normal/“special” dodge. The removal is just a lot less passive and subsequently doesn’t auto-prioritize DoT conditions like SE does. Arguably, dash makes D/D much more slippery than it is on SA from the condition cleansing and high mobility.

DD is only a true downgrade for extremely burst-oriented D/D builds, in which case it neither supplies the damage from DA, the crit chance from CS, or the utility from Trickery to be replaceable without substantial damage or reliability losses.

You have a point, deceiver, just that condi necros are always the reason why I go back SA if I don’t have it as they apply that many condis in that short time that it’s impossible to get them off – without SA or without sword 2 or an evade build. D/P is basically no melee set, so they don’t have to wade through aoe to get to their opponent, that’s why I brought that up.
And I’m not saying DrD is a dowgrade, just that it doesn’t really work for me. I don’t feel it synergizes well with the rest of the traitlines – but since most of them are in need of some work maybe it all will fit together at some point. And I’m sure that people with different weaponsets/playstyles can make DrD work for themselves.

DeceiverX.8361:

Jana.6831:

reikken.4961:

Daredevil provides excellent condition removal though

Try it against a condi necro.

ETA: (note to self – never post when a patch is happening)
I’m a D/D thief – that is a problem – I have to be close on my enemy = what is enough for a staff or D/P thief isn’t enough for me.
And: I’m still a power thief – no fan of D/D condi.

D/D is arguably better for the condition removal on DD than D/P. Death Blossom being buffed so massively in terms of the evade allows it to be a free evade to trigger Escapist’s Absolution quite frequently without needing to burn a normal/“special” dodge. The removal is just a lot less passive and subsequently doesn’t auto-prioritize DoT conditions like SE does.

The main difference is I am not subject to further stacks of conditions when in stealth, thus is it not just a condition removal but also a condition prevention.

Arguably, dash makes D/D much more slippery than it is on SA from the condition cleansing and high mobility.

Mobility cannot ever replace stealth in terms of slipperiness. Dash is good, I like it a lot, but I am still subject to damage while being in stealth prevents further damage on me only because I’m untargettable. The only real bad thing about stealth is not even stealth it self, but Revealed. If that stupid self-inflicting nerf is removed I would redo my build to incorporate stealth again. But alas, I am forced to spec for DD only because they’ve ruined our core traits.

I’m sorry but being untargetable does absolutely nothing to mitigate damage, especially now with reworked projectiles/action camera/similar alternatives. Dash is a full evade. You can’t take damage while using it. You can absolutely still take damage while in stealth. Only a few abilities in the game cannot hit stealthed targets, and those are numbered (pretty much just mesmer ranged weapons and shatter skills).

The only true damage avoidance mechanism is evasion. Otherwise you’re basing damage “immunity” on sheer player ineptitude or completely leaving the fight via teleports and mobility rather than stealth, paired with a definite lack of AOE damage.

I’m a firm believer of the idea that the best defense for a thief is being out of range, then evades, then stealth. Ideally a combination of the above. Jana has a point about D/D though, it’s pretty much the only set that struggles to stealth or kite without being in melee first, which with the cloaked in shadows nerf means the set could really use some help.

DeceiverX.8361:

DD is only a true downgrade for extremely burst-oriented D/D builds, in which case it neither supplies the damage from DA, the crit chance from CS, or the utility from Trickery to be replaceable without substantial damage or reliability losses.

From an sPvP standpoint DD > CS for burst. The 17% damage modifier will outdo the critical damage modifiers from Critical Strikes. You don’t gain additional critical chance in the form of stats anymore.

DeceiverX.8361:

I’m sorry but being untargetable does absolutely nothing to mitigate damage, especially now with reworked projectiles/action camera/similar alternatives. Dash is a full evade. You can’t take damage while using it.

I disagree. I’ve been using Dash and the main issue I have with it is the long animation frames. If the evade lasts as long as the animation, it would be perfect. Removing a condition at the beginning of the animation to only get it back when the animation ends is quite annoying. Thankfully, Dash applies a 10% damage mitigation so the new conditions wouldn’t be too bad, but I still take damage.

You can absolutely still take damage while in stealth. Only a few abilities in the game cannot hit stealthed targets, and those are numbered (pretty much just mesmer ranged weapons and shatter skills).

I’m speaking within the context of condition application and why stealth is a better choice than evasion within that context.

The only true damage avoidance mechanism is evasion.

The problem is, you can’t evade the damage from conditions. You’ll take the damage unless removed. And I know the value of Dash and Escapist Absolution, I Dash through AoEs all the time to remove conditions on me per AoE tick. The main issue is that EA has an internal cooldown that when you make multiple evades in one Dash, which happen a lot to me, it only removes one condition.

I’m not arguing whether that stealth is the true damage avoidance or not. What I’m saying is that due to untargetability, it can prevent further application of conditions.

Otherwise you’re basing damage “immunity” on sheer player ineptitude or completely leaving the fight via teleports and mobility rather than stealth, paired with a definite lack of AOE damage.

Evasion is hardly a damage immunity so I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Besides, the context is within the scope of condition damage. Even with AoE, SA provides enough protection to mitigate the damage. Just as Dash provides 10% damage reduction, SA provides 25%. Not to mention that stealth can remove upto 3 conditions so even if a new condition is applied while in stealth, it will be removed on the next tick.

Stealth < Mobility/Evasion in the current meta. The heavy AoE meta has made being in stealth less appealing than dodging/escaping. That said having one or two accessible stealths accessible is very good for a high mobility build especially when running the staff where the stealth also has a knockdown component and often allows for a big Vault hit.

I run the SA trait line for those extra knockdowns which are key to killing most bunkers these days. Oddly enough I do not take Shadow’s Embrace since I find Dash, EA and Trickster with Withdrawl more than enough condi removal in most fights. It is not uncommon to get a full clear when using Withdrawl in this setup. I find Concealed Defeat a much more powerful trait since it makes SS and BP recharge faster.

Straegen.2938:

Stealth < Mobility/Evasion in the current meta. The heavy AoE meta has made being in stealth less appealing than dodging/escaping. That said having one or two accessible stealths accessible is very good for a high mobility build especially when running the staff where the stealth also has a knockdown component and often allows for a big Vault hit.

I run the SA trait line for those extra knockdowns which are key to killing most bunkers these days. Oddly enough I do not take Shadow’s Embrace since I find Dash, EA and Trickster with Withdrawl more than enough condi removal in most fights. It is not uncommon to get a full clear when using Withdrawl in this setup. I find Concealed Defeat a much more powerful trait since it makes SS and BP recharge faster.

I too have integrated stealth in my Staff build after trying many other iterations. The survival increases significantly and hook strike with a stealth on steal makes for some great openings. I still use the SE for cleanses as I like PI or staff mastery . Getting two interrupts off on a steal then hook (rare but it has happened) along with an on interrupt sigil PI and an immediate vault makes for some great damage.

in WvW I am growing quite found of bountiful theft with staff equipped with absorption as this steals you up to three boons on that theft followed by chances at another with the hook if you manage to get those interrupts in .

Narcarsis.5739:

DeceiverX.8361:

DD is only a true downgrade for extremely burst-oriented D/D builds, in which case it neither supplies the damage from DA, the crit chance from CS, or the utility from Trickery to be replaceable without substantial damage or reliability losses.

From an sPvP standpoint DD > CS for burst. The 17% damage modifier will outdo the critical damage modifiers from Critical Strikes. You don’t gain additional critical chance in the form of stats anymore.

By “extremely burst-oriented D/D builds” I’m pretty much referring to signets or NQ stab. 17% from DD is better on builds which do not put such emphasis on critting, such as the D/P meta which builds closer to sustain and pressure +1’s. NQ itself is a 16.67 damage gain on crits, and PT on marauder is an additional 14%. Daredevil absolutely can’t compete damage-wise with CS assuming the CS build is played and built for burst damage (like it should be; it’s crit strikes). Even without NQ for HK, Ferocious Strikes pushes another 10% modifier on targets over 50%, which again, will be a lot of people in the regard of sPvP due to lower power and overall higher defenses on average than WvW due to the nature of the format.

You’re also not performing the modifiers correctly. DD gives a 17.7% increase by how the scaling works whereas CS would provide a 25.5% modifier without NQ, and a 46.3% modifier with it.

Paired with SoP and Assassin’s Signet, CS wins by miles, pushing out what’s almost a 70% damage modifier on 10-15 stacks of might, which estimates around another 20% more damage pre-calculating.

Like I said, DD has massive support gains and yea is definitely an upgrade from most other build paths, but a burst-based D/D backstab build will see damage downgrades by a large margin trading out CS for DD due to the lack of crit support. DD offers less damage potential than DA (albeit this is close and potentially can favor the DD given a bound crit offsetting Mug if ignoring Executioner’s benefits for a stab execution), less crit support and subsequently damage from CS, and the utility from Trickery isn’t replaceable.

DeceiverX.8361:

By “extremely burst-oriented D/D builds” I’m pretty much referring to signets or NQ stab. 17% from DD is better on builds which do not put such emphasis on critting, such as the D/P meta which builds closer to sustain and pressure +1’s. NQ itself is a 16.67 damage gain on crits, and PT on marauder is an additional 14%. Daredevil absolutely can’t compete damage-wise with CS assuming the CS build is played and built for burst damage (like it should be; it’s crit strikes). Even without NQ for HK, Ferocious Strikes pushes another 10% modifier on targets over 50%, which again, will be a lot of people in the regard of sPvP due to lower power and overall higher defenses on average than WvW due to the nature of the format.

You’re also not performing the modifiers correctly. DD gives a 17.7% increase by how the scaling works whereas CS would provide a 25.5% modifier without NQ, and a 46.3% modifier with it.

Paired with SoP and Assassin’s Signet, CS wins by miles, pushing out what’s almost a 70% damage modifier on 10-15 stacks of might, which estimates around another 20% more damage pre-calculating.

Like I said, DD has massive support gains and yea is definitely an upgrade from most other build paths, but a burst-based D/D backstab build will see damage downgrades by a large margin trading out CS for DD due to the lack of crit support. DD offers less damage potential than DA (albeit this is close and potentially can favor the DD given a bound crit offsetting Mug if ignoring Executioner’s benefits for a stab execution), less crit support and subsequently damage from CS, and the utility from Trickery isn’t replaceable.

Seems like I’ll explain this again as people still fail to discern the difference between Critical Damage and Damage modifiers.

We’ll use standard PvP base critical damage as our starting point (Marauder’s Amulet).
Critical damage is at 187.3%

Practiced Tolerance gives us an additional 13.7% critical damage. Adding this with the 10% from Ferocious Strikes and the 7% from Flawless Strikes, and the 16.6% from No Quarter we arrive at an additional 47.3% critical damage – leaving us at 234.6% critical damage. We’ll use an arbitrary number for a Backstab crit (since we’re dealing with percentage modifiers this won’t make a difference for the sake of explanation). Let’s say our backstab is going to hit for 5,000.
On Critical Strikes under perfect conditions we’ll arrive at a critical hit of 11,730 (5,000 * 2.346 = 11,730).

Now if we move on to look at the damage gained from Daredevil we’ll use a damage modifier of 17%. With the base critical damage of 187.3% we’ll calculate the damage of the same backstab.
Using Daredevil our backstab should arrive at a critical hit of 10,958 (1.873 * 5,000 = 9,365 * 1.17 = 10,958).

Now, both builds will likely include Mug, and as something you mentioned we should factor in Steal damage when talking about a burst.
We can use a lower number on Mug of 1,500. Since Mug cannot crit we’ll add 1,500 directly to Critical Strikes Backstab and come to 13,230 total.
As for Daredevil, the Mug will do 1,755 (1,500 * 1.17 = 1,755) and bring us to 12,713.

At the end of it Critical Strikes only does 500 more damage.

There are a few things to consider on top of that;
1. I didn’t calculate might from a signet build because I don’t think that build is viable against better players. However 10-20 stacks of might will make a noticeable difference in damage between the two.
2. This is under perfect conditions. You have to be above 90% health (won’t last long against good players) and your target has to be above 50% health (this is more reasonable).
3. This is using Dagger/X and not Staff – Using Daredevil with Staff Master pushes the damage modifier from the trait-line to 27% and far outdoes Critical Strikes in damage.
4. The direct damage from Bound itself is not calculated as we’re only looking at burst under a perfect scenario. This damage will outdo the already negligible gain from Critical Strikes when looking at a longer period of play.
5. You already mentioned it but I will add it here as well; the utility of Daredevil adds far more than only damage modifiers, while Critical Strike provides nothing further.

All in all I still would take Daredevil over Critical Strikes in any serious one-shot build aside from troll gimmicks.

Without going into too much detail in regards to trait line comparisons like a lot of people are doing, I’ll say that I think DD is a definite upgrade to any sword or pistol related build, as DD offers great synergy with them.

However, I feel that if you were a very good D/D or D/P Thief before HoT, you can still be highly effective post-HoT without the need for DD (I’m talking pure power builds here btw, not gimmicky condi builds).

Personally I have a man crush on Staff… It’s my favourite weapon by a country mile and I can wreck face in 1v1s and even occasional 1v2/1v3s just fine running it (In WvW).

I’m about 400k mastery XP away from having my pretty Bo Staff! Woop Woop!

You’re not remembering how critical damage modifiers are still modified by other damage modifiers. I know how GW2’s damage works.

You’re not factoring in CnD. Assuming CnD crits, the damage would be 2604.
We’ll also derive mug from the 5k backstab, which would be 1986.56

DA/CS/Tr vs DA/Tr/DD:
We’ll assume for the sake of PvP reasons Mug/CnD doesn’t take a target below 50%. With Executioner in the mix, the added modifier favors CS even more.

DA/CS/Tr:
DA: 10% Exposed Weakness
CS: 234.6% critical damage modifier.
Tr: Assume 10% damage from LA

DA/Tr/DD:
187.3% critical damage
DA: 10% Exposed Weakness
DD: 17.7% damage assuming Bound
Tr: 10% from LA

Total of multiplicative stats based on a 5k backstab; Mug/CnD damage derived:
1986.56 mug, even favoring DD
2604 CnD
5000 backstab

We’ll also assume both builds are lucky and crit on their needed skills. CS favors reliability here as well due to the increased critical hit chance it innately provides over DD.

(2604 + 5000) * 234.6 * 1.1 * 1.1 + 1986.56 = 23571.73064

((2604 + 5000) * 187.3 * 1.1) + 1986) * 1.17 = 20653.449804

DD is dealing almost 15% less on a combo than CS. 500 damage turns into 3k, almost making the difference between someone geared in full berserker vs marauder. On might this scales bigger towards CS. On Executioner this gap is further increased. On signets, this value scales way out of control and you end up dealing massively more damage to the point where the DD starts failing to compete even with bound.

I’m not disagreeing with you saying DD isn’t almost always a better option. Frankly, I said that in my first post. It does however, scale worse with burst builds, and the damage difference is substantially higher in WvW, which the OP never specified (and which I play primarily where my experience comes from).

Vault spam will hit harder than backstab any day of the week given the DD is specced for it with staff mastery. I can’t argue that and it’s a null argument to do so, because the skill has an overtuned coefficient because the rest of the staff is imho a horrible and clunky weapon with low damage, and that’s also arguing semantics over what constitutes a “D/D backstab build”. Frankly, I assume CnD as implicit.

DeceiverX.8361:

(2604 + 5000) * 234.6 * 1.1 * 1.1 + 1986.56 = 23571.73064

((2604 + 5000) * 187.3 * 1.1) + 1986) * 1.17 = 20653.449804

Yes, if you remove a multiplier to suit your argument. But in reality that number you removed is only used to inflate your math. If you decide to use the real numbers you come back down to a difference of around 800. Not sure why you’re attempting to manipulate the results but if you’re that intent on running the build feel free.
As for Cloak and Dagger, D/D has been inferior to D/P since 2012 – however I speak both from sPvP and a place where the utility of D/P outdoes the marginal instant damage increase from D/D.

PS; you also forgot that both Exposed Weakness and Lead Attacks affect Mug – which may raise the damage difference to around 1,000.

My biggest gripe is how most builds that compete in end game have to have trickery and daredevil or either you are gimping yourself if you leave either of these out the way that daredevil works. The main thing I have a gripe with though is the daredevil has no traits that have any synergy with shadow arts or stealth. All the while you have classes like druid/ranger and mesmer/chronomancer and even DH’s with using trapper runes big changes with HoT for stealth but the main class here that didn’t get a smidgeon of stealth synergy was the thief/daredevil.

I know they kinda wanted to go out of the box on what these new classes or specializations can do. Although I think issues like the shadow arts and stealth should be addressed in the near future or either new elite specialization maybe like an assassin type thing that is based in the near future.

Then again if I am wrong please show me a shadow arts based idea that can benefit with daredevil where I am not forced to also use trickery.

Stealth Shroud? I love the idea and in addition, perhaps bringing back the long forgotten minor trait called Hidden Assassin to compensate Shadow Art.
Yep, my abacus is broken.

Narcarsis.5739:

DeceiverX.8361:

(2604 + 5000) * 234.6 * 1.1 * 1.1 + 1986.56 = 23571.73064

((2604 + 5000) * 187.3 * 1.1) + 1986) * 1.17 = 20653.449804

Yes, if you remove a multiplier to suit your argument. But in reality that number you removed is only used to inflate your math. If you decide to use the real numbers you come back down to a difference of around 800. Not sure why you’re attempting to manipulate the results but if you’re that intent on running the build feel free.
As for Cloak and Dagger, D/D has been inferior to D/P since 2012 – however I speak both from sPvP and a place where the utility of D/P outdoes the marginal instant damage increase from D/D.

Again, I am not talking about the benefits of D/D, just the sentence stating a build like extreme D/D burst will face net losses from using DD. D/P isn’t capable of building such burst because it lacks CnD. Yes, I am aware D/D is considered bad in sPvP. It isn’t in WvW, and that’s again where my expertise lays. From a sheer numbers perspective, however, all I’m arguing is that DA/CS/Tr offers more damage than DD.

Please go re-read my initial post. This conversation is about D/D. You argued with me about the damage for D/D. I genuinely do not care D/P is better. I already know it is. I’ve beaten an overwhelming majority of thieves using Shadow Shot alone and frankly think the set is boring and overly-forgiving in mechanics. But that’s another topic entirely.

As for missing the damage increase on mug – honest mistake. I assume this is what you’re referring to by “manipulating the data”. Either way, the math checks out to D/D dealing more damage with CS than DD. You’re talking margins less than your original statement through the modifications..

Klypto.1703:

My biggest gripe is how most builds that compete in end game have to have trickery and daredevil or either you are gimping yourself if you leave either of these out the way that daredevil works. The main thing I have a gripe with though is the daredevil has no traits that have any synergy with shadow arts or stealth. All the while you have classes like druid/ranger and mesmer/chronomancer and even DH’s with using trapper runes big changes with HoT for stealth but the main class here that didn’t get a smidgeon of stealth synergy was the thief/daredevil.

I know they kinda wanted to go out of the box on what these new classes or specializations can do. Although I think issues like the shadow arts and stealth should be addressed in the near future or either new elite specialization maybe like an assassin type thing that is based in the near future.

Then again if I am wrong please show me a shadow arts based idea that can benefit with daredevil where I am not forced to also use trickery.

Staff Build.

Use DA/SA/DD , trappers runes with trappers respite and tarp mastery. trait hidden thief/se/CIS.

You will get plenty of stealth for hook strike which can be followed up with an immediate attack. Impact sigil on staff used in conjunction with the Shadow trap and you get a knockdown and 15 stacks of might with 10 percent bonus from the sigil. It hits hard whether you follow up with vault or fist flurry after triggering basi.

Klypto.1703:

My biggest gripe is how most builds that compete in end game have to have trickery and daredevil or either you are gimping yourself if you leave either of these out the way that daredevil works. The main thing I have a gripe with though is the daredevil has no traits that have any synergy with shadow arts or stealth. All the while you have classes like druid/ranger and mesmer/chronomancer and even DH’s with using trapper runes big changes with HoT for stealth but the main class here that didn’t get a smidgeon of stealth synergy was the thief/daredevil.

I know they kinda wanted to go out of the box on what these new classes or specializations can do. Although I think issues like the shadow arts and stealth should be addressed in the near future or either new elite specialization maybe like an assassin type thing that is based in the near future.

Then again if I am wrong please show me a shadow arts based idea that can benefit with daredevil where I am not forced to also use trickery.

Staff Build.

Use DA/SA/DD , trappers runes with trappers respite and tarp mastery. trait hidden thief/se/CIS.

You will get plenty of stealth for hook strike which can be followed up with an immediate attack. Impact sigil on staff used in conjunction with the Shadow trap and you get a knockdown and 15 stacks of might with 10 percent bonus from the sigil. It hits hard whether you follow up with vault or fist flurry after triggering basi. if you got staff mastery that another 10 percent damage. Executioner traited and there another possible 20 plus the 10 percent from exposed weakness. Slap on 7 percent havoc mastery.

babazhook.6805:

Klypto.1703:

My biggest gripe is how most builds that compete in end game have to have trickery and daredevil or either you are gimping yourself if you leave either of these out the way that daredevil works. The main thing I have a gripe with though is the daredevil has no traits that have any synergy with shadow arts or stealth. All the while you have classes like druid/ranger and mesmer/chronomancer and even DH’s with using trapper runes big changes with HoT for stealth but the main class here that didn’t get a smidgeon of stealth synergy was the thief/daredevil.

I know they kinda wanted to go out of the box on what these new classes or specializations can do. Although I think issues like the shadow arts and stealth should be addressed in the near future or either new elite specialization maybe like an assassin type thing that is based in the near future.

Then again if I am wrong please show me a shadow arts based idea that can benefit with daredevil where I am not forced to also use trickery.

Staff Build.

Use DA/SA/DD , trappers runes with trappers respite and tarp mastery. trait hidden thief/se/CIS.

You will get plenty of stealth for hook strike which can be followed up with an immediate attack. Impact sigil on staff used in conjunction with the Shadow trap and you get a knockdown and 15 stacks of might with 10 percent bonus from the sigil. It hits hard whether you follow up with vault or fist flurry after triggering basi.

Yeah that is awesome plus the shadow arts grandmaster traits are good for that too so the cis for the support it gives with the blind, falling damage, extra stealth options or the SR one for the lost initiative/management but overall a much better trade off

Thanks a lot

DeceiverX.8361:

As for missing the damage increase on mug – honest mistake. I assume this is what you’re referring to by “manipulating the data”. Either way, the math checks out to D/D dealing more damage with CS than DD. You’re talking margins less than your original statement through the modifications..

You left out a 10% modifier on the DD calculation. Changes the result.

CS: (((2604 + 5000) * 2.346) + 1986) * 1.2 = 23,790
DD: (((2604 + 5000) * 1.873) + 1986) * 1.37 = 22,233

Rounded to whole numbers, and using your numbers.

After re-doing the calculations, I have no idea what I left off. Forgetting the 1.1 as I wrote to summarize would have left me with much lower numbers than I initially got. Clearly not my brightest moment lol. Genuinely no idea what I was doing to get those numbers.

Re-done calculations re-redone to assure correctness indicate:

DA/CS/Tr: 23988.9
DA/Tr/DD: 22974.53

Which matches closer to what you’re saying. Definitely a closer margin for sPvP. Much closer than I was expecting. Not the case for WvW, though.

babazhook.6805:

Klypto.1703:

My biggest gripe is how most builds that compete in end game have to have trickery and daredevil or either you are gimping yourself if you leave either of these out the way that daredevil works. The main thing I have a gripe with though is the daredevil has no traits that have any synergy with shadow arts or stealth. All the while you have classes like druid/ranger and mesmer/chronomancer and even DH’s with using trapper runes big changes with HoT for stealth but the main class here that didn’t get a smidgeon of stealth synergy was the thief/daredevil.

I know they kinda wanted to go out of the box on what these new classes or specializations can do. Although I think issues like the shadow arts and stealth should be addressed in the near future or either new elite specialization maybe like an assassin type thing that is based in the near future.

Then again if I am wrong please show me a shadow arts based idea that can benefit with daredevil where I am not forced to also use trickery.

Staff Build.

Use DA/SA/DD , trappers runes with trappers respite and tarp mastery. trait hidden thief/se/CIS.

You will get plenty of stealth for hook strike which can be followed up with an immediate attack. Impact sigil on staff used in conjunction with the Shadow trap and you get a knockdown and 15 stacks of might with 10 percent bonus from the sigil. It hits hard whether you follow up with vault or fist flurry after triggering basi. if you got staff mastery that another 10 percent damage. Executioner traited and there another possible 20 plus the 10 percent from exposed weakness. Slap on 7 percent havoc mastery.

Some decent modifiers right there, i ignored might stacking coz they serve absolutely nothing. and forgot some runes and sigils has it. kidding aside, DD is the only way to go in this current Thief state.

Has anyone seen my Damage Multiplier? i can’t seem to find my own.

the condi removal on dd and the dodge traits are very good imo, I am getting a lot better vs condi necros in pvp with staff, i can keep their normal condi attacks at bay by using #4 #3 and dash a lot and when they pop their signet i just pop shadow step/return.

Narcarsis.5739:

Seems like I’ll explain this again as people still fail to discern the difference between Critical Damage and Damage modifiers.

Relatively minor nit – the ferocity changes from Practiced Tolerance and No Quarter behave exactly as described (they stack additively with your base ferocity / critical damage) but the multipliers from Flawless Strike and Ferocious Strikes work multiplicatively like other damage modifiers (except only on critical hits).

The critical damage multiplier (while above 90% health and target above 50% health) you want to use (sPvP, marauder amulet) is thus 256.2% (1.1*1.07*(150+(560+205+250)/15)).

You may now return to discussing whether or not critical strikes is good for dumpstering mouth-breathers in hotjoins.

Ensign.2189:

Narcarsis.5739:

Seems like I’ll explain this again as people still fail to discern the difference between Critical Damage and Damage modifiers.

Relatively minor nit – the ferocity changes from Practiced Tolerance and No Quarter behave exactly as described (they stack additively with your base ferocity / critical damage) but the multipliers from Flawless Strike and Ferocious Strikes work multiplicatively like other damage modifiers (except only on critical hits).

The critical damage multiplier (while above 90% health and target above 50% health) you want to use (sPvP, marauder amulet) is thus 256.2% (1.1*1.07*(150+(560+205+250)/15)).

You may now return to discussing whether or not critical strikes is good for dumpstering mouth-breathers in hotjoins.

That’s not how critical damage modifiers work – those included despite the ambiguous wording. They are additive to your critical damage regardless of whether you see the change in your stats our not (because you won’t, they’re conditional bonuses. Quite simply, I don’t think you are correct but there is no way to prove either theory after the removal of steady weapons. If a dev could comment with the answer it would be appreciated.

Narcarsis.5739:

Ensign.2189:

Narcarsis.5739:

Seems like I’ll explain this again as people still fail to discern the difference between Critical Damage and Damage modifiers.

Relatively minor nit – the ferocity changes from Practiced Tolerance and No Quarter behave exactly as described (they stack additively with your base ferocity / critical damage) but the multipliers from Flawless Strike and Ferocious Strikes work multiplicatively like other damage modifiers (except only on critical hits).

The critical damage multiplier (while above 90% health and target above 50% health) you want to use (sPvP, marauder amulet) is thus 256.2% (1.1*1.07*(150+(560+205+250)/15)).

You may now return to discussing whether or not critical strikes is good for dumpstering mouth-breathers in hotjoins.

That’s not how critical damage modifiers work – those included despite the ambiguous wording. They are additive to your critical damage regardless of whether you see the change in your stats our not (because you won’t, they’re conditional bonuses. Quite simply, I don’t think you are correct but there is no way to prove either theory after the removal of steady weapons. If a dev could comment with the answer it would be appreciated.

As a side note, the following data was performed on the Light sPvP golem using Marauder + Scholar runes with Force + Accuracy Sigils.

I could have sworn it also worked this way based on some I did testing a while ago. I should have re-done by homework; according to the wiki, Ferocious Strikes is actually a external damage modifier. Flawless strike had no such info on the wiki, so I also decided to go in-game and re-test my data from years’ past. I figured Caed being the thief he is might have been more informed than me about any potential numbers or mechanics changes to the CS line. It doesn’t seem to be the case.

I tested my initial backstab damage running DA/Acro (No traits)/Tr 50 times
To test Ferocious, I traited the last two traits in CS for HK to make the test faster 50 times.
To test Flawless, I traited it and left the middle tier empty, also 50 times.

Ferocious Strikes is absolutely an external damage modifier applied after crit damage. It took a lot of backstabs for what I deemed a consistent damage value after crit (a lot of them didn’t crit annoyingly). Without FS, stab damage doing absolutely nothing except CnD, I gathered the following results:
Minimum: 6812
Maximum: 7367
Average: 7016

7k (I had Assassin’s signet’s passive 180 power on during this test). We could then expect the following results within maybe a 1-2% tolerance from potentially not hitting the global maximum or minimum damage from the dagger (based on the number of tests per the potential variance), so up to around +/- 80-160.

The expected result then of using the Crit Strikes line using Ferocious + Flawless if they were both external modifiers would be:

~7k * 1.1 (Ferocious) = ~7.7k * 1.07 (Flawless) = ~8.23k

I tested Ferocious Strikes first.

The result: Minimum damage range: 7567, maximum 8342 (the stars aligned it seems on this one, or I potentially didn’t notice a random stack or two of might thrown on me by another player). This fits the constraints nicely, and my overall average was hovering around 7817. There’s no questioning it: Ferocious Strikes absolutely is an external damage modifier, just only applied to critical hits. The data aligns almost perfectly with the expected calculations. Deriving the initial crit from the modifiers at play, we can re-calculate what should have been Ferocious Strikes if it was a ferocity-style modifier:

We can cancel everything out by dividing and re-multiplying by just the ferocity and Ferocious Strikes adjustments.

7016 (Non-CS crit at Marauder + Scholar) / 1.94.0 (Scholar Runes + Marauder) = 3616.49
3616.49 * (1.94 + .1) = 7377.63

We’re off by a large amount of the range between the two. Ferocious Strikes absolutely must be an external modifier.

Next was Flawless Strikes.
50 more tests later:
8046 minimum (6.812 * 1.1 * 1.07) = 8017 which checks out from the initial minimum
Maximum: 8524
Average: 8339.58

Again, almost a perfect match to the expected. Re-calculated if ferocity:
(7016 / 1.94) * (1.94 + .07) * 1.1 (Ferocious Strikes) = 7996.07

This is even lower than the minimum. No way is Flawless Strikes a ferocity-based damage modifier, either.

End result? CS directly competes with the damage coefficients from DD and then some, given PT and NQ applying even more ferocity-based damage.

I also tested a bunch with the DD as well for a comparison, but I didn’t record my results. Overall, the data seems fairly consistent. I didn’t record my findings, but was just looking for a general comparison. Overall the average numbers seemed to hover around 8.1k or so (I didn’t do as many), which is consistent enough with my CS tests given a few percent margin of error to verify that Ferocious Strikes and Flawless Strikes are not calculated with Ferocity in an additive fashion, which was my initial hunch after doing the work and much heavier number-crunching a long time ago.

Very well could be wrong, I’ll ask a dev to confirm because 1. I don’t think many people have the patience to gather a larger sample pool to further reduce the variance between crits, and 2. I know I don’t and I have trust issues ^^

Either way thanks for bringing it up Ensign ~

PS; I do appreciate the irony of what I said if that is the case =]

thanks for doing this btw lol. saves me the trouble
and those critical damage modifiers being separate from the critical damage stat is good to know. do get confirmation if you can

Ferocious Strikes simply makes the Critical Damage 160% instead of 150%. It doesn’t add 10% to the calculated damage like making 1000 damage 1650 actual crit damage instead of 1600 actual crit damage. 1650 actual crit damage is a result of a wrong calculation.

Except it doesn’t. I tested it this morning in-game. The critical strike damage stat is also not affected by it.

DeceiverX.8361:

Except it doesn’t. I tested it this morning in-game. The critical strike damage stat is also not affected by it.

Well let’s take a look at one formula you have;

(7016 / 1.94) * (1.94 + .07) * 1.1 (Ferocious Strikes) = 7996.07

We’re off by a large amount of the range between the two. Ferocious Strikes absolutely must be an external modifier.

You arrived at your conclusion only because the Math is wrong.

If you calculate it like this;
(7016/0.94) * (0.94+0.07+0.1) = 8284.85

Which is even closer to your initial range of values.

Fairly sure it is additive to existing critical damage and not multiplicative in general but I also prefer proof so as I said I’ll ask.
I don’t exactly trust your math and I don’t feel like arguing the same thing again. If Vincentiii wishes to that’s his prerogative.

Edit: spelling, on my phone.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Except it doesn’t. I tested it this morning in-game. The critical strike damage stat is also not affected by it.

Well let’s take a look at one formula you have;

(7016 / 1.94) * (1.94 + .07) * 1.1 (Ferocious Strikes) = 7996.07

We’re off by a large amount of the range between the two. Ferocious Strikes absolutely must be an external modifier.

You arrived at your conclusion only because the Math is wrong.

If you calculate it like this;
(7016/0.94) * (0.94+0.07+0.1) = 8284.85

Which is even closer to your initial range of values.

What exactly is it you’re doing, there? If you’re trying to undo the effects of crit damage like I did above, you’re dividing by a positive number and making a non-crit backstab deal more damage than a crit. You’re then re-multiyplying the value except additing the .07 and .01 before doing so, putting the decimal over 1 which makes the value increase more, except this is completely arbitrary. If the critical damage at hand was 150%, your math would indicate:

7016 (crit) / .5 = 14032 (non-critical damage) * (.5 + .07 + .1) (stacked modifiers) = 9401

You’d then be mysteriously dealing more damage with lower critical damage and lower damage without critting.

Also, Ferocious Strikes would be multiplied after the re-addition, not added. I verified the .1 is an exterior modifier above, and the wiki says so (which was also interestingly updated today stating Flawless Strikes applies additive damage that modifies the character menu, which is completely false).

@Caed: I understand the skepticism with my blunder prior to the testing :P. I’m like 99.99% sure my recordings above were done correctly and prior to posting I even re-did everything to make sure I got the same results. All of the speculated calculations were done in a much clearer mind than in our previous discussion (it’s been a rough past few days), so I don’t think there are any errors. I only say this because getting a dev in here is never going to happen, particularly for answering questions like this.

Narcarsis.5739:

Quite simply, I don’t think you are correct but there is no way to prove either theory after the removal of steady weapons.

Ferocious Strikes is actually quite easy to test – an AoE attack only rolls damage once when you cleave (but rolls crits independently), so just wade into the test golem pile with a cleaving weapon (I used the shortbow) and look for a hit that crits two different golems for different amounts – it’ll happen when one was above half and the other below half. You’ll find that the bigger crit is 10% larger than the smaller one, within rounding errors.

Flawless Strike takes a bit more work since as you said there aren’t steady weapons now, though again it’s not too hard. Shoot things with the trait and without it for a couple minutes and compare the average damage done per hit, it doesn’t take too long to get the ratio to converge tightly enough to distinguish between a real 7% boost and a real 4% boost to an arbitrarily large Z-value (I used 10).

Yes, I have tested both of these, and you can too. They behave as described.

Narcarsis.5739:

1. I don’t think many people have the patience to gather a larger sample pool to further reduce the variance between crits, and 2. I know I don’t and I have trust issues ^^

I have enough experience doing these sorts of tests that setting them up and running them doesn’t take me much time, and 2) I totally respect trust issues. Try the cleaving weapon as described above in the golem pit – it takes very little time, a minute or two at most, and is really definitive – no statistics necessary.

DeceiverX.8361:

If the critical damage at hand was 150%, your math would indicate:

7016 (crit) / .5 = 14032 (non-critical damage) * (.5 + .07 + .1) (stacked modifiers) = 9401

You’d then be mysteriously dealing more damage with lower critical damage and lower damage without critting.

I totally botched that. I realized the same thing after posting it when I tried using lower values like you just did. (back to the drawing board)

However, your formula also deals more damage with lower crit value:

(7016 / 1.94) * (1.94 + .07) * 1.1 (Ferocious Strikes) = 7996.07
(7016/ 1.5) * (1.5 + .07) * 1.1 (Ferocious Strikes) = 8077.755

/shrugs

Narcarsis.5739:

We’ll use standard PvP base critical damage as our starting point (Marauder’s Amulet).
Critical damage is at 187.3%

Practiced Tolerance gives us an additional 13.7% critical damage. Adding this with the 10% from Ferocious Strikes and the 7% from Flawless Strikes, and the 16.6% from No Quarter we arrive at an additional 47.3% critical damage – leaving us at 234.6% critical damage. We’ll use an arbitrary number for a Backstab crit (since we’re dealing with percentage modifiers this won’t make a difference for the sake of explanation). Let’s say our backstab is going to hit for 5,000.
On Critical Strikes under perfect conditions we’ll arrive at a critical hit of 11,730 (5,000 * 2.346 = 11,730).

This actually what I have in mind which supports my initial post (I have no idea why I used DX’s formula).

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

If the critical damage at hand was 150%, your math would indicate:

7016 (crit) / .5 = 14032 (non-critical damage) * (.5 + .07 + .1) (stacked modifiers) = 9401

You’d then be mysteriously dealing more damage with lower critical damage and lower damage without critting.

I totally botched that. I realized the same thing after posting it when I tried using lower values like you just did. (back to the drawing board)

However, your formula also deals more damage with lower crit value:

(7016 / 1.94) * (1.94 + .07) * 1.1 (Ferocious Strikes) = 7996.07
(7016/ 1.5) * (1.5 + .07) * 1.1 (Ferocious Strikes) = 8077.755

/shrugs

I re-calculated the above to show you where your math wasn’t making sense. The “non-critical damage” being higher is the value that really matters. The “lower value dealing more damage” is correct universally in this instance for the following reason explained below.

As a direct comparison, though, you can’t use this method to compare modifiers for which one supplies more damage. The initial math I did above, because it wasn’t making a comparison between two different modifiers works out. The 7016 value is the result of a 194% modifier without any other modifiers at play. Undoing the critical hit damage by dividing by 1.94 gets us to the non-critical damage of the backstab. This is just “undoing” the critical hit.

Dividing by a smaller number will increase the damage which is performed without a critical hit; as the critical damage modifier would approach zero, the “non-critical” damage would approach infinity, where on the converse critical damage would approach zero. You’re then re-multiplying this value again, either with the .07 added or also multiplied in the mix. Since the critical damage modifier approaches zero at lower modifiers, multiplying by the .07 is arbitrary; an infinitely big number multiplied by zero is going to result in zero, and the sum of adding the .07 will net a result larger than the multiplication because of it see the following example:

Additive:
(x infinitely-sized base damage * (0 + .07)) will result in a still-infinitely large number, for a number of infinite size multiplied by any non-zero positive scalar will still be infinite in size.

Multiplicative:
(x infinitely-sized base damage * (0 * .07)) will result still in zero, as the multiplication of an infinite value times zero times any number will still result in zero.

Back to the original formula, because I only reverse-calculated non-critical damage, and all subsequent modifiers would be identical, they can be cancelled across the board and are irrelevant. Re-multiplying with additive and multiplicative modifiers of the .07 only creates a comparison between the expected results of the addition vs multiplication when operating on the same modifiers.

As long as the damage modifier is consistent in the divisor and does not change when calculating non-critical damage, the above calculation I made will remain accurate for any value placed in the critical damage modifier spot.

Hope that clarifies things.