Guild Wars 2

As the title have stated is it viable? I’m fine with it but what are your thoughts? Is it high enough for some real sustain? 15% with 1125 in ferocity you’ll be looking at around 225 heal. Do you guys think it should be increased to 20% for a little but more or is it just enough as it is? There were a few threads regarding this topic that’s already long forgotten that’s why I’m here to ask again.

I’ve been running IP in pvp lately with Dagger/Pistol. This trait has more or less allowed me to ignore basic damage from most builds and focus on evading bursts. It also lets me take a role in team fights, doing spike with dagger and switching to Shortbow to retreat and continue ranged pressure while recovering.

My zerker Build healing:
A basic dagger chain returns 300-600hp (2 second execution puts it on par with cele auto attack regen)
Backstab returns 600-1k depending on if I landed it right.
Heartseeker returns around 600 against low health targets.
A well placed cluster bomb can return 1k+

My opinion on this trait is that it is awesome and completely viable. It allows me to tear apart a bunker build and gives me some of the sustain needed to keep up with engineer or cele pressure without sacrificing much in the way of dps.

Lol it’s awesome to hear this trait thrive in such a way. Do you think this trait is strong enough to increase the chances of winning duels? Speaking about engineers and warriors specifically.

I would say yes.
I have felt a lot less squishy while running with it. I run it with s/d, my own silly build, and it allows me to be even more annoying to people.
I can also look at not taking as much vit, allowing for more precision/ferocity/power, since I heal much more often.

I’s say if you are on the fence about it. Run it for a little and see how you feel with it. Maybe even try creating a build around it and see how it works out.

I been using it with my PP. It’s a nice replacement for Signet of Malice which allows me to use Withdrawl more easily, which improves survivability a lot by that alone. Them Richochetting bullets in WvW.

Doggie.3184:

I been using it with my PP. It’s a nice replacement for Signet of Malice which allows me to use Withdrawl more easily, which improves survivability a lot by that alone. Them Richochetting bullets in WvW.

Yeah that’s what I love most about this trait it gives you access to some burst heals at the same time allowing you to be aggressive.

Darkfire.2950:

I would say yes.
I have felt a lot less squishy while running with it. I run it with s/d, my own silly build, and it allows me to be even more annoying to people.
I can also look at not taking as much vit, allowing for more precision/ferocity/power, since I heal much more often.

I’s say if you are on the fence about it. Run it for a little and see how you feel with it. Maybe even try creating a build around it and see how it works out.

May I have a look at your s/d build? I love looking at new builds ppl make

Main issue I have with it is dropping HK / Exec makes it a lot harder to do your job killing people, and without those traits the Critical Strikes tree just isn’t very good, so I think it’s still below the bar in PvP. Still, it’s a very strong trait to keep in mind when and if they made any substantial trait changes.

Trying to answer OP’s question: It is a good trait, but I think it depends on the situation.

I.e. during a prolonged fight you might heal yourself for about 1500-2500 life, which might save your life.
Or if use Executioner, you might save yourself 1500-2500 life or even more by killing your opponent even faster

Something that does work well though is running IP, going kamizake cluster bombing with 3 enemies on a point. That heals you for a lot. xD

I’m currently testing IP in WVW and PVP and I can’t decide if I prefer it or executioner. Sometimes I’m like: Phew I’m glad I had that healing otherwise the condis woulda shred me, sometimes I’m like: kitten I wish I had executioner, because then that mesmer wouldn’t have escaped. etc.

IP probably could work well in some niche builds combined with Assassin’s reward, Leeching venoms, healing signet, sigil of blood, omnomberry ghost, etc. to create a massive self sustaining life stealing build.

Nephrite.6954:

Darkfire.2950:

I would say yes.
I have felt a lot less squishy while running with it. I run it with s/d, my own silly build, and it allows me to be even more annoying to people.
I can also look at not taking as much vit, allowing for more precision/ferocity/power, since I heal much more often.

I’s say if you are on the fence about it. Run it for a little and see how you feel with it. Maybe even try creating a build around it and see how it works out.

May I have a look at your s/d build? I love looking at new builds ppl make

It’s definitely not perfect, optimal, or meta by any means, but I’m having fun with it. It still allows me to hit relatively hard but stay alive. And the only way to kill people is staying alive lol. I mainly built it around high crit rate with passive survival from IP, evade frames, and stealing boons.

Feel free to dissect it at your leisure lol. Won’t hurt my feelings telling me its absolute poo lol. Who knows though, maybe it will inspire one of you all to make something better lol
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAsYVl0Mp0pVOx7J8PNxORtdBEAHovTRU0XOA-TVCFwALViB4MAcVJISlHx2fgwDAIj+gBHCAVq/AA-w

I’ve also been running the same trait setup in sPVP currently. I normally do WVW and have been on a break so PVP is new for me. But atm im running celestial trink. May change depending on how it works out for me. I liked how hard I hit with the barbarian trink, but I was super squishy and I’m not quite good enough to allow that level of squish yet.

Nephrite.6954:

Lol it’s awesome to hear this trait thrive in such a way. Do you think this trait is strong enough to increase the chances of winning duels? Speaking about engineers and warriors specifically.

Not a chance. You’ll be harder to kill but it never gives you anything to win. Basically, it’s a tool to delay the inevitable.

In PvE, it’s a welcome addition since it gives us more staying power which means less time hiding in stealth.

When I use this trait, I always feel like I’m tying one hand behind my back. Why prolong the fight when you could have ended it earlier? And if that doesn’t work, just get the hell outa dodge.

Sometimes what you want is the prolonged fight though. A thief’s biggest job in pvp is to create outnumbered fights right? Sometimes that means solo capping/decapping a point to draw one or two baddies there. If they are stuck fighting you for even a minute or two then they arent attacking the point your allies are trying to cap. Creating a potentially outnumbered fight there and an easier win for your allies. Its just a different way of doing the same thing. Not a perfect way, but a different way.

It’s not perfect, but it does have a place. It’s just a different tool to do something a little bit different.

Darkfire.2950:

Sometimes what you want is the prolonged fight though. A thief’s biggest job in pvp is to create outnumbered fights right? Sometimes that means solo capping/decapping a point to draw one or two baddies there. If they are stuck fighting you for even a minute or two then they arent attacking the point your allies are trying to cap. Creating a potentially outnumbered fight there and an easier win for your allies. Its just a different way of doing the same thing. Not a perfect way, but a different way.

It’s not perfect, but it does have a place. It’s just a different tool to do something a little bit different.

That only works in theory.

I’ve seen a lot of cases where 2-3 members can hold a point even when outnumbered.

>>Not a chance. You’ll be harder to kill but it never gives you anything to win. Basically, it’s a tool to delay the inevitable.

Not entirely true. More health IS something that will help you win. If your heartseeker does 6000 damage rather then 5000 due to Executioner, it will do you little good if the enemy has 7000 health left and hits you for 3000 as you sit there with 2800 health.

The IP will allow you to survive that blow and get another hit in. This has happened to me in Wvw. I have found that if a warrior/guardian involved in a battle where they see health close to my own they will stay in that battle longer. if they see their own dropping while mine remains high, they tend to get defensive or careless or turn to run.

As example using p/p and IP i can kite a warrior and keep my own health topped off. That warrior will very often turn to run even as I am low on INI and dodges. Being able to finish him faster because that 20 percent extra damage kicks in does not always work in practice.

Darkfire.2950:

Sometimes what you want is the prolonged fight though. A thief’s biggest job in pvp is to create outnumbered fights right? Sometimes that means solo capping/decapping a point to draw one or two baddies there. If they are stuck fighting you for even a minute or two then they arent attacking the point your allies are trying to cap. Creating a potentially outnumbered fight there and an easier win for your allies. Its just a different way of doing the same thing. Not a perfect way, but a different way.

It’s not perfect, but it does have a place. It’s just a different tool to do something a little bit different.

Just as point of example and this has happened far more then just once. Again this a WvW perspective. We are on late at night with only 3 of us on the entire home borderland running site to site to defend or retake. Our way pointed garrison gets swords and by time the three of us get to the lords room the lord already dead. There about 6 of the enemy and the two with me fall.

Stealthing is useless as the place will flip. All i could do was evade and dodge and port and use my p/p or s/d to stay alive as long as possible. IP saved me. The Ricohets or cleaves would heal me just enough to stay on my feet till my next withdraw ready. More damage would have been pointless as they could just rez one another and i cannot take the time to finish the enemy off. I watch my map in the lower corner and see those two guys coming back from the citadel closer and closer. I see a commanders tag from another borderland closing from the citadel. I survive long enough so as to allow them other two to get in the circle then finally use my SR.

I have also compared flipping camps solo using IP and using executioner. I can do so much more easily using IP and much faster. A daggerstorm after my ini runs out will very often heal me from near empty to full leaving me my withdraw to use as needed.

This extra health allows me to output more damage as I can stay in the battle longer. It does not make one a superman but it certainly a usable option.

How or IF that translates to PvP is a different matter. It is apparent some here think it has its place and ARE using it.

Bought the trait and was thinking about trying out combined with the life steal food and sigil of blood on a d/p set.

Ended up not really going to the test. The sustain provided by the trait itself is tough to quantify and compare to the flat +20% under 50% by executioner.

I personally think dagger mainhand doesn’t benefit as much from the trait as other weapon sets would. A PW thief or a power based p/d build (which makes up for the lost executioner damage by taking pistol mastery within the CS traitline along with having the stealth attack that allows for a rapid number of hits).

Helly.2597:

Bought the trait and was thinking about trying out combined with the life steal food and sigil of blood on a d/p set.

Ended up not really going to the test. The sustain provided by the trait itself is tough to quantify and compare to the flat +20% under 50% by executioner.

I personally think dagger mainhand doesn’t benefit as much from the trait as other weapon sets would. A PW thief or a power based p/d build (which makes up for the lost executioner damage by taking pistol mastery within the CS traitline along with having the stealth attack that allows for a rapid number of hits).

I concur. I do not think this trait serves as well in a weapon set that premised around setting up single large burst attacks such as a daggers backstab.

Outside the two you mentioned I think p/p and s/d can do well with IP.

babazhook.6805:

>>Not a chance. You’ll be harder to kill but it never gives you anything to win. Basically, it’s a tool to delay the inevitable.

Not entirely true. More health IS something that will help you win. If your heartseeker does 6000 damage rather then 5000 due to Executioner, it will do you little good if the enemy has 7000 health left and hits you for 3000 as you sit there with 2800 health.

What if your target sits at 5500 and you sit at 2800 then you hit him for 5000 (no Exec) and he hits you for 3000? You die, he survives.

There’s really no point at talking about hypothetical scenarios.

The IP will allow you to survive that blow and get another hit in. This has happened to me in Wvw. I have found that if a warrior/guardian involved in a battle where they see health close to my own they will stay in that battle longer. if they see their own dropping while mine remains high, they tend to get defensive or careless or turn to run.

That last part is more accurate. The faster you can bring their health down, the sooner they go into defensive — meaning they are not damaging you. IP doesn’t have that capability, instead it allows you to take damage while your target stays on offensive and eventually will overcome your healing. Poison hurts IP and it’s everywhere.

As example using p/p and IP i can kite a warrior and keep my own health topped off. That warrior will very often turn to run even as I am low on INI and dodges. Being able to finish him faster because that 20 percent extra damage kicks in does not always work in practice.

That’s exactly what’s going to happen, just prolonging the inevitable. Besides, no Warrior runs away from P/P Thief and kiting them is nothing but an illusion. Ever heard of Berserker Stance? It’s a staple to any non-bunker Warriors.

Sorry for the necro, but i have some thoughts i would like some inputs on. I know almost the same build have been posted on the forums before, but the take on it is a bit diffrent. And to be clear im talking wvw here.

We all know healing “counts more” with higher toughness, cuz you take less damage and you heal the same etc. So was thinking; could a Knight build work, or would the damage just be to low? You sacrifice alot of damage (some power and alot of ferocity) with this setup.

Ill post a full knights build here but it can be balanced out with zerker pices aswell. This would probably come off as a troll build (and i guess it is), but could it be viable in any part of the game? Roaming, scouting or in a zerg situation with SB “clusterbombmachinegunning” harassing backliners with S/D and so on?

Also, what runes to use, i posted pack but ogre will be a good option.

Build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAsYVl0Mp7pVOx0J8PNBNBt9EGeI0KAdHl+2EA-TFCEABFqEEG1fiS5XcHBQfABnAgc2fAhHAAAHCASBYuQL-w

Cloudo.7315:

Sorry for the necro, but i have some thoughts i would like some inputs on. I know almost the same build have been posted on the forums before, but the take on it is a bit diffrent. And to be clear im talking wvw here.

We all know healing “counts more” with higher toughness, cuz you take less damage and you heal the same etc. So was thinking; could a Knight build work, or would the damage just be to low? You sacrifice alot of damage (some power and alot of ferocity) with this setup.

Ill post a full knights build here but it can be balanced out with zerker pices aswell. This would probably come off as a troll build (and i guess it is), but could it be viable in any part of the game? Roaming, scouting or in a zerg situation with SB “clusterbombmachinegunning” harassing backliners with S/D and so on?

Also, what runes to use, i posted pack but ogre will be a good option.

Build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAsYVl0Mp7pVOx0J8PNBNBt9EGeI0KAdHl+2EA-TFCEABFqEEG1fiS5XcHBQfABnAgc2fAhHAAAHCASBYuQL-w

There is a few downfall with this build though, it’s nice that you’re looking into toughness and vitality buy once you’re pinned up against a heavy condition build 1on1 then they’ll have the upper hand. As a skilled thief the chances are high if you’re going to pick squishes and the “injured”. I can’t judge entirely about this build since I’ve never used it before due to every individual’s different diverse perspective. My opinion for you is to be cautious with conditions and the initiative control of this build. Remember poison will still effect your healing from invigorating precision, same goes to assassin’s reward.

This talent would be great if it wasn’t competing with executioner.

Personally I’m really liking the buff. It gives me enough sustain to 1v1 bunker builds without sacrificing a load of damage. Executioner is nice, but a tough fight will usually involve a drawn out battle. You can only insta burst down bad players, in which case executioner will make little difference either way. This is coming from WvW, not sure it would be so great in PvP due to being unable to safely stack crit chance as high.

Shiyo.3578:

This talent would be great if it wasn’t competing with executioner.

This ^

Critical Strikes already had 2 of the most important grandmaster traits for thiefs (executioner and Hidden Killer).
IP is currently an awesome trait, up to par with the two above, but the problem is WHY, why ANOTHER great grandmaster trait on CS?

Sometimes it makes me wonder why IP isn’t on acrobatics?

SoulSin.5682:

Shiyo.3578:

This talent would be great if it wasn’t competing with executioner.

This ^

Critical Strikes already had 2 of the most important grandmaster traits for thiefs (executioner and Hidden Killer).
IP is currently an awesome trait, up to par with the two above, but the problem is WHY, why ANOTHER great grandmaster trait on CS?

Sometimes it makes me wonder why IP isn’t on acrobatics?

Because it relies on ferocity for healing percentage and AB already has the redundant assassins’s reward however this trait can be upgraded with healing power then again it wouldn’t be worth it cause you need a huge load of that.

It’d be nice if acrobatics had a grandmaster trait at all, it’s never worth going past 4 acrobatics for anything.

Nephrite.6954:

There is a few downfall with this build though, it’s nice that you’re looking into toughness and vitality buy once you’re pinned up against a heavy condition build 1on1 then they’ll have the upper hand. As a skilled thief the chances are high if you’re going to pick squishes and the “injured”. I can’t judge entirely about this build since I’ve never used it before due to every individual’s different diverse perspective. My opinion for you is to be cautious with conditions and the initiative control of this build. Remember poison will still effect your healing from invigorating precision, same goes to assassin’s reward.

Yeah poison is a real pain with this build. I agree that it have problems with a heavy condi builds, but i dont see how it is that much worse against them then any other build that does not rely on shadows embarce. You have your built in condi clense in Sw #2 and your shadowstep, the sigil on sb helps too. The heals in this build also helps mitigate some of the damaging conditions aswell.. But yeah, pick your battles..

Also your very right about the initiative control, really need to be carefull not to spend it all, but i find it to be very manageble.

Did try it out last night and i got to say its fun, lets you be right in peoples faces all the time that can be fun, but disappointingly enough the damage was too low (atleast for roaming):( Tried balancing it out with some zerker pieces and it got alot better, i found 2.5k armour and 200% crit damage is something to go for.. Gonna be playing it for a while and see how it works out in diffrent aspects of the game:)

Build im gonna use: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAsYVl0Mp7pVOx0J0PNBNRt9EMcVoWBQ3RRf1EA-T1CEABRp8IujAABPAgEVrYLlgMpEDhTAQO7P0m+AAOEANqqCpAMXkF-w

>>That last part is more accurate. The faster you can bring their health down, the sooner they go into defensive — meaning they are not damaging you. IP doesn’t have that capability, instead it allows you to take damage while your target stays on offensive and eventually will overcome your healing. Poison hurts IP and it’s everywhere.

You miss the point. There is NO advantage to having hidden killer when inflicting all of that initial damage. two identical builds , one using IP and one using executioner will get the enemy to 50 percent health just as fast. Executioner only kicks in at that point. Up to that point IP has all the advantages.

At that point we have already establised that the IP build can inflict enough damage or it would never have been able to get that enemy to 50 percent health. There are few skills or utilities an enemy has that allows for greater survival once they at 50 percent health and tactics most used to mitigate damage at that point (such as blocks and invulnerability) by design will stop all incoming damage meaning the person using IP is not at any disadvantage to the one using hidden killer.

At the same time in those two identical builds the IP user will ALWAYS have more health and the trait IP does not stop working if a guardian as example suddenly heals back up.

As to poison It something one has to deal with just as power builds deal with weakness. I would point out that If I am using IP in one build and a power build uses executioner, any condition damage that power build carries will not be mitigated. In other words while my heals might be for less I will still be taking less overall damage.
Retaliation is an excellent example here. My incoming heals are greater then the dameg retal inflicts due to IP. I can also heal through confusion stacks as I attack.

As example using p/p and IP i can kite a warrior and keep my own health topped off. That warrior will very often turn to run even as I am low on INI and dodges. Being able to finish him faster because that 20 percent extra damage kicks in does not always work in practice.

>>That’s exactly what’s going to happen, just prolonging the inevitable. Besides, no Warrior runs away from P/P Thief and kiting them is nothing but an illusion. Ever heard of Berserker Stance? It’s a staple to any non-bunker Warriors.[/quote]

I am not sure of your point here. Berserker stance does little against a power build.
It does not prevent any damage from a P/P unload. To claim no warrior runs from a p/p build is simply not accurate. I have chased warriors and guardians halfways across the map as they run from my p/p unloads. This in fact remains the greatest weakness of P/P. That the inability to chase a near dead opponent like the warrior.

babazhook.6805:

You miss the point. There is NO advantage to having hidden killer when inflicting all of that initial damage. two identical builds , one using IP and one using executioner will get the enemy to 50 percent health just as fast. Executioner only kicks in at that point. Up to that point IP has all the advantages.

You’re using “Hidden Killer” and “Executioner” as if they are one and the same. So your response is really confusing on which trait are you talking about.

At that point we have already establised that the IP build can inflict enough damage or it would never have been able to get that enemy to 50 percent health. There are few skills or utilities an enemy has that allows for greater survival once they at 50 percent health and tactics most used to mitigate damage at that point (such as blocks and invulnerability) by design will stop all incoming damage meaning the person using IP is not at any disadvantage to the one using hidden killer.

Don’t you see the part of your post that actually proved you wrong?

If the enemy has “greater survival once they at 50 percent health”, then Executioner is even more valuable than IP as a counter.

At the same time in those two identical builds the IP user will ALWAYS have more health and the trait IP does not stop working if a guardian as example suddenly heals back up.

You are assuming as if IP will always trigger — that is not the reality. IP requires you to hit for critical hit and based on your critical damage that you are healed. IP does not always trigger on attacks — meaning when you fail to crit you’re SOL. Executioner is always on at the last half of your enemy’s health regardless of whatever condition you’ve acquired.

As to poison It something one has to deal with just as power builds deal with weakness.

IP builds are more vulnerable from weakness than power builds because weakness reduces your damage in half and if you are also poisoned, that’s -33% on your heal.

I would point out that If I am using IP in one build and a power build uses executioner, any condition damage that power build carries will not be mitigated. In other words while my heals might be for less I will still be taking less overall damage.
Retaliation is an excellent example here. My incoming heals are greater then the dameg retal inflicts due to IP. I can also heal through confusion stacks as I attack.

Except, IP doesn’t trigger all the time — retal and confusion does.

I am not sure of your point here. Berserker stance does little against a power build. It does not prevent any damage from a P/P unload. To claim no warrior runs from a p/p build is simply not accurate. I have chased warriors and guardians halfways across the map as they run from my p/p unloads. This in fact remains the greatest weakness of P/P. That the inability to chase a near dead opponent like the warrior.

P/P unload is not my point. You said you can kite them, yet you can’t chase them. The only way to kite a Warrior is to slow them down with condition and Berserker Stance negates that. So you failed to show how are you kiting a Warrior if 1) you can’t chase them — meaning you’re slower than them and 2) you can’t CC them.

>>P/P unload is not my point. You said you can kite them, yet you can’t chase them. The only way to kite a Warrior is to slow them down with condition and Berserker Stance negates that. So you failed to show how are you kiting a Warrior if 1) you can’t chase them — meaning you’re slower than them and 2) you can’t CC them.

They are kited with evades , RFI withdraw and IMMOB skill number 2. One also has available ankle shots or the sigil of incapacitation which works nicely in a high crit build. One can not use withdraw RFI or evades to chase a warrior intent on getting away. Berserker stance does not run 100 percent of the time. That is when you use your evades and other gap openers (shadowstep also can work here especially if facing a warrior and or guardian not using conditions).

You obviously can not evade or avoid every attack and but this is where the IP will help you replenish health so you can use your heal at a more opportune time.

>>Except, IP doesn’t trigger all the time — retal and confusion does.

Ip triggers virtually everytime I hit. I have a high crit build. The base is 83 percent and Fury is up well over half the time.

>>Don’t you see the part of your post that actually proved you wrong?
If the enemy has “greater survival once they at 50 percent health”, then Executioner is even more valuable than IP as a counter.

no I stated that the enemy does NOT have greater survival at 50 percent health . They are just more likely to use more of the skills such as blocks at that point which will mitigate 100 percent of incoming damage NO MATTER how much greater that damage is. If a guardian throws up his shelter at this point whether you have 20 percent extra damage is moot. If they do NOT use such means to mitigate damage then the situation is no different then when you started that battle and got them down to 50 percent health, not so?

Now if said Guardian uses that shelter and or other heals (dodges or heals from meditations) to get back over 50 percent health he might well push his health back up higher than your own giving him the advantage. That hidden killer then becomes useless again even as the next attacks using IP help restore that thieves own health.

With higher access to that health the thief can stay more aggressive throughout the battle. Were this not the case no thief would every use Valkyrie gear or take traits that add to his health pool.

I digress. Half of what you’ve posted doesn’t even make sense.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I digress. Half of what you’ve posted doesn’t even make sense.

Yes. Apparently suggesting that access to more health an a build can allow one better sustain which in turn allows one to stay in battle longer without breaking off to heal just can not be grasped by some.

Do what works for you. I use IP and executioner both and have better success with IP.

SoulSin.5682:

Sometimes it makes me wonder why IP isn’t on acrobatics?

The answer is simple; bad game design.

The developer team still dont understand that PvE and PvP enviroments have to be strictly separated to enable better balancing and being in less conflicts with each other.
This could be realized by raising or lowering individual mechanics like the heal amount, armor, condition dmg, etc.
So they wouldnt have to re-create to individual trait concepts for each class but sightly different game mechanics.
In this case they would have a way to re-balance condition builds for pve while not to overdose some settings in PvP.

Ragnarok’s “siege mode enviroment” is one of the best examples how to realize it without alot effort.

Depressing me that developers 10 yrs ago had better inovations as the game designers nowadays..

#2020believe

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I digress. Half of what you’ve posted doesn’t even make sense.

Yes. Apparently suggesting that access to more health an a build can allow one better sustain which in turn allows one to stay in battle longer without breaking off to heal just can not be grasped by some.

Do what works for you. I use IP and executioner both and have better success with IP.

That’s the part that doesn’t make any sense — “more health an a build can allow one better sustain” — is nothing but a wishful thinking or paper theory.

Your heal is so dependent on the amount of damage you dealt IF, and only IF, you land a crit — and I’m not just talking about Crit Chance here.

Here’s a contradiction;

There are few skills or utilities an enemy has that allows for greater survival once they at 50 percent health and tactics most used to mitigate damage at that point (such as blocks and invulnerability) by design will stop all incoming damage

babazhook.6805:

no I stated that the enemy does NOT have greater survival at 50 percent health .

You might want to proof read your posts.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I digress. Half of what you’ve posted doesn’t even make sense.

Yes. Apparently suggesting that access to more health an a build can allow one better sustain which in turn allows one to stay in battle longer without breaking off to heal just can not be grasped by some.

Do what works for you. I use IP and executioner both and have better success with IP.

>>That’s the part that doesn’t make any sense — “more health an a build can allow one better sustain” — is nothing but a wishful thinking or paper theory.

Your heal is so dependent on the amount of damage you dealt IF, and only IF, you land a crit — and I’m not just talking about Crit Chance here.

And your damage is so reliant on landing a Crit so what? My heal comes from the number 6 slot just as the person who uses Executioner gets his heal. The only difference is I have other sources of heals. Suggesting more health does not allow one to stay in battle longer is simply nonsense. Virtually every person who goes up the CS tree will take practiced tolerance. It hardly is a damage skill. It is so they can survive long enough to do damage.

I would point out a large number of vidoes are now going up for PVP with builds using IP. I would also point out that the links to those builds using IP show builds where practiced tolerance no longer taken. One or tywo AA chains can replace that much health and more.

The added health from IP is NOT theoretical. I use it every day in WvW and I assure you it is real and not a “theory”. I will also assure you I am surviving longer using IP then I did with Executioner. This is not “theoretical”

>>Here’s a contradiction;

There are few skills or utilities an enemy has that allows for greater survival once they at 50 percent health and tactics most used to mitigate damage at that point (such as blocks and invulnerability) by design will stop all incoming damage

babazhook.6805:

no I stated that the enemy does NOT have greater survival at 50 percent health .

You might want to proof read your posts.

You might want to read the post again. I said exactly what I said. I said There are FEW skills or utilities that allow a person to better survival after 50 percent loss. FEW means exactly that. One that comes to mind is endure pain on warrior which kicks in after 25 percent health remains.

If that skill kicks in the amount of damage one musters will do NOTHING as it blocks all damage.

User Diva posted an excellent video of p/p ip build in action in pv in another thread. It an excellent example of all of the advantages I have been mentioning especially the ability to remain in combat and apply continous pressure to an enemy due to that extra health coming in.

Think about it less in a bubble and more in terms of how it stacks with similar effects.

Alone it’s not a great choice, but paired with Signet of malice, life sigils, mug, etc. it starts to shine.

I personally use it alongside Signet of Malice and mad king runes to turn basilisk venom in to a pretty effective auto-hit heal+stun with a fast recharge. I lose damage this way, but I gain a pretty effective harassment tool and some sustain that lets me be a little more aggressive and save some of my cooldowns so I can apply them a little more strategically rather than reactively.

In any case, you’re always going to be trading burst, other utility, or DPS for sustain, but it is a worthwhile option for thief builds looking to be a bit more tank and a bit less spank, which is its entire purpose. One set is better for 1v1s and roams, while the other is a batter bet in team fights and zergs.

I’ve never really used IP, to be honest. My builds typically snag Executioner. Although, I could see it (maybe) being real brutal with life sigils/mug/SoM added in. Especially if I’m stuck zerg-surfing.

IP/Executioner/HK and the entire CS line is actually not even that good!

How about that! It is mostly because of the bad adept/master traits when you compare it to great traits like Mug/Embrace/Power of Inertia/Vig Recov

Critical Haste? Practiced Tolerance? Garbage

Full zerker with SA/Acro + Trickery is better 2/0/0/6/6 and 2/0/6/0/6

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I digress. Half of what you’ve posted doesn’t even make sense.

Yes. Apparently suggesting that access to more health an a build can allow one better sustain which in turn allows one to stay in battle longer without breaking off to heal just can not be grasped by some.

Do what works for you. I use IP and executioner both and have better success with IP.

>>That’s the part that doesn’t make any sense — “more health an a build can allow one better sustain” — is nothing but a wishful thinking or paper theory.

Your heal is so dependent on the amount of damage you dealt IF, and only IF, you land a crit — and I’m not just talking about Crit Chance here.

And your damage is so reliant on landing a Crit so what? My heal comes from the number 6 slot just as the person who uses Executioner gets his heal. The only difference is I have other sources of heals. Suggesting more health does not allow one to stay in battle longer is simply nonsense. Virtually every person who goes up the CS tree will take practiced tolerance. It hardly is a damage skill. It is so they can survive long enough to do damage.

I would point out a large number of vidoes are now going up for PVP with builds using IP. I would also point out that the links to those builds using IP show builds where practiced tolerance no longer taken. One or tywo AA chains can replace that much health and more.

The added health from IP is NOT theoretical. I use it every day in WvW and I assure you it is real and not a “theory”. I will also assure you I am surviving longer using IP then I did with Executioner. This is not “theoretical”

>>Here’s a contradiction;

There are few skills or utilities an enemy has that allows for greater survival once they at 50 percent health and tactics most used to mitigate damage at that point (such as blocks and invulnerability) by design will stop all incoming damage

babazhook.6805:

no I stated that the enemy does NOT have greater survival at 50 percent health .

You might want to proof read your posts.

You might want to read the post again. I said exactly what I said. I said There are FEW skills or utilities that allow a person to better survival after 50 percent loss. FEW means exactly that. One that comes to mind is endure pain on warrior which kicks in after 25 percent health remains.

“does NOT have greater survival” is very different from “few skills…that allows for greater survival”

If that skill kicks in the amount of damage one musters will do NOTHING as it blocks all damage.

What’s the point of that example when both IP and Exec are denied?

User Diva posted an excellent video of p/p ip build in action in pv in another thread. It an excellent example of all of the advantages I have been mentioning especially the ability to remain in combat and apply continous pressure to an enemy due to that extra health coming in.

I mean it’s a great video and all but I’m not convince of IP’s excellence than other choices since most of the enemy in that video are not that good. Look at the Range for example, he’s just standing there and keeping the pet idle…I mean, that’s just sad. If the Ranger has the same active play style as Diva, and Diva came out on the top, then that would be a more convincing video.

I have seen other similar videos and I keep wondering why are these Thieves trying to make it harder for themselves. I mean, if you run 5-0-0-3-6 with P/P, you’d have an exponential better result than trying to make IP work.

I hate to admit this, but Assassin’s Reward has a better healing output than IP.

I’ll jump in to this conversation. IP definitely has its uses. I use it tons in wvw with a p/p ricochet build. What also works to my advantage, is I’m built around 100% crit chance, so IP does indeed apply to every attack I make. That guaranteed effect certainly helps its cause, and it definitely belongs in the Critical Strikes tree, as its completely self serving. More precision for more uptime, and more crit damage for more impactful heals. I’ll also echo some other sentiments, as it works beautifully with Signet of Malice. One full Unload will heal me 3.5-4.5k between IP and SoM, which allows me to survive a lot longer in engagements.

There are many cases where Executioner will be better than IP, and many cases where IP will be better. I’ve built around maximizing IP, and it performs wonderfully for me.

>> hate to admit this, but Assassin’s Reward has a better healing output than IP.

No it does not.