Guild Wars 2

Compared to other classes, level 80 guardians, elementalists and thieves have a base health of 10,805 while warriors and necromancers have 18,372 and engineers rangers annd mesmers have 15,082 thats a huge gap.

Both Guardian and Ele have great healing abilities and Thieves have….um, have…, kittens, I’m drawing a blank here.

Yeah, I’d argue it is a bit. The gap between the three tiers should really be smaller because the enormity with it now makes it very difficult to properly balance the classes. The compensations have to be built into individual skills and traits, which just doesn’t seem like a good design schema.

At level 80 baseline it’s currently-
18372
15082
10805

Notice that not only is it a huge gap between tiers 1 and 3, but the gap between tier 1 and 2 is substantially smaller than between 2 and 3. It should look more like this-

18372
15982
13508

I’d agree. This would however be fine if our survivability was on par with a guardian, which it isn’t. Guardians suffer from a lower overall damage, we suffer from a lower survivability.

We’ve seen moves, inte the upcoming december patch not least, where developers are trying to adress the guardian dps problems. I certainly hope they’ll look at thief survivability as well.

Athel.2076:

I’d agree. This would however be fine if our survivability was on par with a guardian, which it isn’t. Guardians suffer from a lower overall damage, we suffer from a lower survivability.

We’ve seen moves, inte the upcoming december patch not least, where developers are trying to adress the guardian dps problems. I certainly hope they’ll look at thief survivability as well.

lol, have you seen what they are aiming to do concerning our survivability? They want us to engage then die.

Thief defensive skills can be inappropriate and negated far too often so it seems sensible to give us more health. If thieves had better defenses, including some useful passive defense, then thieves wouldn’t need a bigger health pool.

I would love a bigger health pool! Who wouldn’t?

Justified? Not imo now. After Dec 10th… A small chance of maybe.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Both Guardian and Ele have great healing abilities and Thieves have….um, have…, kittens, I’m drawing a blank here.

guardians and eles have access to almost perma protection and vastly superior healing.

thief has stealth…and evades. both getting nurfed next patch. we’re fast becoming irrelevant.

Excalibur.9748:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Both Guardian and Ele have great healing abilities and Thieves have….um, have…, kittens, I’m drawing a blank here.

guardians and eles have access to almost perma protection and vastly superior healing.

thief has stealth…and evades. both getting nurfed next patch. we’re fast becoming irrelevant.

Stealth isnt being nerfed Mr. Doom and Gloom. Relax and let’s see how it plays out first.

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Both Guardian and Ele have great healing abilities and Thieves have….um, have…, kittens, I’m drawing a blank here.

guardians and eles have access to almost perma protection and vastly superior healing.

thief has stealth…and evades. both getting nurfed next patch. we’re fast becoming irrelevant.

Stealth isnt being nerfed Mr. Doom and Gloom. Relax and let’s see how it plays out first.

stealth isn’t being nerfed, but one of the best stealth traits is being nerfed (infusion of shadows) so it’s practically the same thing.

it’s nice that you remain optimistic but can’t blame me for being cynical since we get nerfed every patch with no buff in sight.

WTB “Feign Neutrality” trait under Shadow Arts that grants +200 toughness and 5 stacks of Regen for 8 seconds after receiving a critical hit with 10s internal cooldown — to replace Last Refuge. Thank you.

Would be nice, but unjustified and will only make other classes hate us even more,

Sanduskel.1850:

Would be nice, but unjustified and will only make other classes hate us even more,

Oderint Dum Metuant

Excalibur.9748:

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Both Guardian and Ele have great healing abilities and Thieves have….um, have…, kittens, I’m drawing a blank here.

guardians and eles have access to almost perma protection and vastly superior healing.

thief has stealth…and evades. both getting nurfed next patch. we’re fast becoming irrelevant.

Stealth isnt being nerfed Mr. Doom and Gloom. Relax and let’s see how it plays out first.

stealth isn’t being nerfed, but one of the best stealth traits is being nerfed (infusion of shadows) so it’s practically the same thing.

it’s nice that you remain optimistic but can’t blame me for being cynical since we get nerfed every patch with no buff in sight.

I guess, coming from other classes, to thief, I see thing wayyyyy differently still, even though I main thief now.

I dont use the trait. The flat ini change is a buff for me.

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Both Guardian and Ele have great healing abilities and Thieves have….um, have…, kittens, I’m drawing a blank here.

guardians and eles have access to almost perma protection and vastly superior healing.

thief has stealth…and evades. both getting nurfed next patch. we’re fast becoming irrelevant.

Stealth isnt being nerfed Mr. Doom and Gloom. Relax and let’s see how it plays out first.

stealth isn’t being nerfed, but one of the best stealth traits is being nerfed (infusion of shadows) so it’s practically the same thing.

it’s nice that you remain optimistic but can’t blame me for being cynical since we get nerfed every patch with no buff in sight.

I guess, coming from other classes, to thief, I see thing wayyyyy differently still, even though I main thief now.

I dont use the trait. The flat ini change is a buff for me.

even if you don’t use it, it’s still a nerf to stealth since it’s considered one of the best traits to stealth. If no one used that trait then you could argue it’s inconsequential but it’s widely used.

What you’re saying is basically like me claiming warrior didn’t get nerfed since I didn’t use unsuspecting foe or hammer. Just because I didn’t use them doesn’t mean warrior didn’t get nerfed slightly.

The only way you could stand to get somehow buffed by this patch is if you use D/D or P/D (or glass cannon D/P) and even then I wouldn’t consider it a buff more like a rebalance. Once again, even if the nerfs didn’t affect you personally doesn’t mean they didnt’ happen.

It would be ok if we had more natural evasion.

Excalibur.9748:

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Both Guardian and Ele have great healing abilities and Thieves have….um, have…, kittens, I’m drawing a blank here.

guardians and eles have access to almost perma protection and vastly superior healing.

thief has stealth…and evades. both getting nurfed next patch. we’re fast becoming irrelevant.

Stealth isnt being nerfed Mr. Doom and Gloom. Relax and let’s see how it plays out first.

stealth isn’t being nerfed, but one of the best stealth traits is being nerfed (infusion of shadows) so it’s practically the same thing.

it’s nice that you remain optimistic but can’t blame me for being cynical since we get nerfed every patch with no buff in sight.

I guess, coming from other classes, to thief, I see thing wayyyyy differently still, even though I main thief now.

I dont use the trait. The flat ini change is a buff for me.

even if you don’t use it, it’s still a nerf to stealth since it’s considered one of the best traits to stealth. If no one used that trait then you could argue it’s inconsequential but it’s widely used.

What you’re saying is basically like me claiming warrior didn’t get nerfed since I didn’t use unsuspecting foe or hammer. Just because I didn’t use them doesn’t mean warrior didn’t get nerfed slightly.

The only way you could stand to get somehow buffed by this patch is if you use D/D or P/D (or glass cannon D/P) and even then I wouldn’t consider it a buff more like a rebalance. Once again, even if the nerfs didn’t affect you personally doesn’t mean they didnt’ happen.

Normalization is not a Nerf imo. Why should spending currency (initiative) reward you with more?

What other class gets that ability?
Using stealth on my mesmer Doesnt increase the frequency of abilities I can use does it? Or dragons tooth by an ele Doesnt make it cool down quicker.

Using a skill doesn’t and shouldn’t reward you the ability to use it again faster.

GW2 plays a risk vs reward to a minor extent. Using combos to effectively eliminate all risk and only reap rewards is a broken concept.

If they removed leap finisher from HS and left infusion I would be happy. Would you? Be honest.

All this doom and gloom has happened time after time, for all classes. Mug can’t crit? Thief is useless! Lower BS damage? End of the world! And here we are again, listening to all the D/P act like the spec was balanced and they are shocked and blindsided by this change….

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Both Guardian and Ele have great healing abilities and Thieves have….um, have…, kittens, I’m drawing a blank here.

guardians and eles have access to almost perma protection and vastly superior healing.

thief has stealth…and evades. both getting nurfed next patch. we’re fast becoming irrelevant.

Stealth isnt being nerfed Mr. Doom and Gloom. Relax and let’s see how it plays out first.

stealth isn’t being nerfed, but one of the best stealth traits is being nerfed (infusion of shadows) so it’s practically the same thing.

it’s nice that you remain optimistic but can’t blame me for being cynical since we get nerfed every patch with no buff in sight.

I guess, coming from other classes, to thief, I see thing wayyyyy differently still, even though I main thief now.

I dont use the trait. The flat ini change is a buff for me.

even if you don’t use it, it’s still a nerf to stealth since it’s considered one of the best traits to stealth. If no one used that trait then you could argue it’s inconsequential but it’s widely used.

What you’re saying is basically like me claiming warrior didn’t get nerfed since I didn’t use unsuspecting foe or hammer. Just because I didn’t use them doesn’t mean warrior didn’t get nerfed slightly.

The only way you could stand to get somehow buffed by this patch is if you use D/D or P/D (or glass cannon D/P) and even then I wouldn’t consider it a buff more like a rebalance. Once again, even if the nerfs didn’t affect you personally doesn’t mean they didnt’ happen.

Normalization is not a Nerf imo. Why should spending currency (initiative) reward you with more?

What other class gets that ability?
Using stealth on my mesmer Doesnt increase the frequency of abilities I can use does it? Or dragons tooth by an ele Doesnt make it cool down quicker.

Using a skill doesn’t and shouldn’t reward you the ability to use it again faster.

GW2 plays a risk vs reward to a minor extent. Using combos to effectively eliminate all risk and only reap rewards is a broken concept.

If they removed leap finisher from HS and left infusion I would be happy. Would you? Be honest.

All this doom and gloom has happened time after time, for all classes. Mug can’t crit? Thief is useless! Lower BS damage? End of the world! And here we are again, listening to all the D/P act like the spec was balanced and they are shocked and blindsided by this change….

“Using a skill doesn’t and shouldn’t reward you the ability to use it again faster. "

Ele RTL – Hit target and you can can use it again faster.
Ele Fresh Air – Crit and you can go into Air again (if outside of it)
Warrior – Burst Skill Return Adren
Mesmer – Signet recharges all of your shatters

Just some examples since you asked.

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Both Guardian and Ele have great healing abilities and Thieves have….um, have…, kittens, I’m drawing a blank here.

guardians and eles have access to almost perma protection and vastly superior healing.

thief has stealth…and evades. both getting nurfed next patch. we’re fast becoming irrelevant.

Stealth isnt being nerfed Mr. Doom and Gloom. Relax and let’s see how it plays out first.

stealth isn’t being nerfed, but one of the best stealth traits is being nerfed (infusion of shadows) so it’s practically the same thing.

it’s nice that you remain optimistic but can’t blame me for being cynical since we get nerfed every patch with no buff in sight.

I guess, coming from other classes, to thief, I see thing wayyyyy differently still, even though I main thief now.

I dont use the trait. The flat ini change is a buff for me.

even if you don’t use it, it’s still a nerf to stealth since it’s considered one of the best traits to stealth. If no one used that trait then you could argue it’s inconsequential but it’s widely used.

What you’re saying is basically like me claiming warrior didn’t get nerfed since I didn’t use unsuspecting foe or hammer. Just because I didn’t use them doesn’t mean warrior didn’t get nerfed slightly.

The only way you could stand to get somehow buffed by this patch is if you use D/D or P/D (or glass cannon D/P) and even then I wouldn’t consider it a buff more like a rebalance. Once again, even if the nerfs didn’t affect you personally doesn’t mean they didnt’ happen.

Normalization is not a Nerf imo. Why should spending currency (initiative) reward you with more?

Normalization means — you nerf one thing to buff another.

That’s not what’s happening here, unfortunately.

The nerf on Opportunist is a net loss for Crit builds while there’s no buff noted to compensate for the loss, instead we will receive a Vigor nerf also.

Where’s the normalization?

Sifu.6527:

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Both Guardian and Ele have great healing abilities and Thieves have….um, have…, kittens, I’m drawing a blank here.

guardians and eles have access to almost perma protection and vastly superior healing.

thief has stealth…and evades. both getting nurfed next patch. we’re fast becoming irrelevant.

Stealth isnt being nerfed Mr. Doom and Gloom. Relax and let’s see how it plays out first.

stealth isn’t being nerfed, but one of the best stealth traits is being nerfed (infusion of shadows) so it’s practically the same thing.

it’s nice that you remain optimistic but can’t blame me for being cynical since we get nerfed every patch with no buff in sight.

I guess, coming from other classes, to thief, I see thing wayyyyy differently still, even though I main thief now.

I dont use the trait. The flat ini change is a buff for me.

even if you don’t use it, it’s still a nerf to stealth since it’s considered one of the best traits to stealth. If no one used that trait then you could argue it’s inconsequential but it’s widely used.

What you’re saying is basically like me claiming warrior didn’t get nerfed since I didn’t use unsuspecting foe or hammer. Just because I didn’t use them doesn’t mean warrior didn’t get nerfed slightly.

The only way you could stand to get somehow buffed by this patch is if you use D/D or P/D (or glass cannon D/P) and even then I wouldn’t consider it a buff more like a rebalance. Once again, even if the nerfs didn’t affect you personally doesn’t mean they didnt’ happen.

Normalization is not a Nerf imo. Why should spending currency (initiative) reward you with more?

What other class gets that ability?
Using stealth on my mesmer Doesnt increase the frequency of abilities I can use does it? Or dragons tooth by an ele Doesnt make it cool down quicker.

Using a skill doesn’t and shouldn’t reward you the ability to use it again faster.

GW2 plays a risk vs reward to a minor extent. Using combos to effectively eliminate all risk and only reap rewards is a broken concept.

If they removed leap finisher from HS and left infusion I would be happy. Would you? Be honest.

All this doom and gloom has happened time after time, for all classes. Mug can’t crit? Thief is useless! Lower BS damage? End of the world! And here we are again, listening to all the D/P act like the spec was balanced and they are shocked and blindsided by this change….

“Using a skill doesn’t and shouldn’t reward you the ability to use it again faster. "

Ele RTL – Hit target and you can can use it again faster.
Ele Fresh Air – Crit and you can go into Air again (if outside of it)
Warrior – Burst Skill Return Adren
Mesmer – Signet recharges all of your shatters

Just some examples since you asked.

RTL is the only skill.

Currency for thief = iniative since we have no CDs
Currency for a warrior or mesmer is the actual CD time.

Burst gives adreline, but Doesnt allow me to bypass the 10sec CD. Using 10 INI to get back 5 allows me to use another skill. (Just an example) We have

As for the mesmer, the risk of using the signet is currency, a cool down and a loss of the passive of the signet.

As for normalizations (can’t double quote on tablet) my spec is getting a buff. You may not like my spec, it may not be the one you use, but D/P isnt the only spec..

Vigor is a huge Nerf to me though. It is going to force me to rethink the spec/way I play it, not temper tantrum about how the class is ruined and stealth and the class are useless.

Not all normalization will be in the same patch (I wish it was, but….yeah……)

Edited. Cross posting like a kitten . Mixing my convos

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Oderint Dum Metuant

I like it.

The problem with thief class isnt health pool or damage → its survival. After 10th Dec Thief wont be viable class on 5v5 tpvp type(only one type of pvp anyway since launch). If thieves get +20-30% dmg for all weaponsets and 20% more hp after next patch it still wont be viable class THATS THE REAL PROBLEM;)

vrilek.4038:

The problem with thief class isnt health pool or damage -> its survival. After 10th Dec Thief wont be viable class on 5v5 tpvp type(only one type of pvp anyway since launch). If thieves get +20-30% dmg for all weaponsets and 20% more hp after next patch it still wont be viable class THATS THE REAL PROBLEM;)

Exactly. We need to trash the garbage Last Refuge and replace it with a GW2-style Feign Neutrality (see above) inspired by GW1 Assassin skill.

If they don’t want us to evade, we need thicker skins. and health regen.

I agree that the huge disparity between base HP is a huge balance issue within the game.

I’m not sure why the devs settled on such a huge gap, it makes no sense.

It makes PvE very hard to balance because mobs have to hit for static amounts. What takes 50% of a Warrior one-hits most Thieves,

It makes PvP balance harder than it needs to be too. Elementalists and Guardians could easily give up a little healing power in favor of a higher health pool. It would slightly reduce their ability to bunker without nerfing their overall survivability.

Thieves too might lend themselves to more than just high pressure damage builds. Maybe a higher HP would help make other builds more viable.

To me 13k, 15k and 17k HP sounds far more reasonable than what we currently have.

I hope an Anst dev sees this!!!!

Arvizal.8436:

I hope an Anst dev sees this!!!!

devs don’t care

they are more busy reading QQ about stealth from clueless people on wvw forums

as for topic: i think it is fine that thieves have low HP, thieves supposed to be squishy but their defensives on dodge/stealth could be really better

you can so easily kill a thief with random spam w/o realizing you actually killed him….

Cynz.9437:

Arvizal.8436:

I hope an Anst dev sees this!!!!

devs don’t care

they are more busy reading QQ about stealth from clueless people on wvw forums

as for topic: i think it is fine that thieves have low HP, thieves supposed to be squishy but their defensives on dodge/stealth could be really better

you can so easily kill a thief with random spam w/o realizing you actually killed him….

Only baddie thieves die that way, sorry.

Sanduskel.1850:

Cynz.9437:

Arvizal.8436:

I hope an Anst dev sees this!!!!

devs don’t care

they are more busy reading QQ about stealth from clueless people on wvw forums

as for topic: i think it is fine that thieves have low HP, thieves supposed to be squishy but their defensives on dodge/stealth could be really better

you can so easily kill a thief with random spam w/o realizing you actually killed him….

Only baddie thieves die that way, sorry.

with amount of aoe CCs and aoe dmg going on atm….i see every thief dying to that from time to time, doesn’t matter how good they are; even if you don’t run into mark someone else will and you will be affected as well, even if you avoid aoe, you will get pulled into it by something

Sanduskel.1850:

Would be nice, but unjustified and will only make other classes hate us even more,

You obviously do not understand stealth classes.

Even if we had no attack skills and all we had was stealth people would still hate our class.

That is the life of stealth classes in every game. Doesn’t matter if you have perma stealth out of combat and none in combat or if you blink in and out of stealth. People will hate your class because it can invisible and some people just can’t handle that mentally. Which is the reason I like stealth and play assassin/thieves in every game I play.

If you made your balance choices based on which class was hated the most you would never have a balanced game.

Sanduskel, this guys suggestion is valid but I wouldn’t incorporate it in the Dec 10 patch. Let’s see how that goes first, but anything to buff this class rather than nerf it even more is a good thing.

Cynz.9437:

Sanduskel.1850:

Cynz.9437:

Arvizal.8436:

I hope an Anst dev sees this!!!!

devs don’t care

they are more busy reading QQ about stealth from clueless people on wvw forums

as for topic: i think it is fine that thieves have low HP, thieves supposed to be squishy but their defensives on dodge/stealth could be really better

you can so easily kill a thief with random spam w/o realizing you actually killed him….

Only baddie thieves die that way, sorry.

with amount of aoe CCs and aoe dmg going on atm….i see every thief dying to that from time to time, doesn’t matter how good they are; even if you don’t run into mark someone else will and you will be affected as well, even if you avoid aoe, you will get pulled into it by something

some of us don’t die to aoe at all. you just need to play smartly. secondly, any buff to thieves isn’t necessarily a good thing. they can op us again and result in more nerfs. I’d rather we let the smoke settle and then see what’s necessary.

I’d like to see Thieves and Eles get a larger health pool, because I think that their current one does not correctly compensate for their shortcomings. Eles no longer have the damage or mobility to be competitive, and Thieves mitigate damage by avoiding it, which is being made more and more difficult for them to do.

I also think the gap between the lowest health pool and the others is unnecessarily and illogically wide.

However, I have very little experience with Guardian, so I have no idea how a change like that would affect them.

Sanduskel.1850:

Cynz.9437:

Sanduskel.1850:

Cynz.9437:

Arvizal.8436:

I hope an Anst dev sees this!!!!

devs don’t care

they are more busy reading QQ about stealth from clueless people on wvw forums

as for topic: i think it is fine that thieves have low HP, thieves supposed to be squishy but their defensives on dodge/stealth could be really better

you can so easily kill a thief with random spam w/o realizing you actually killed him….

Only baddie thieves die that way, sorry.

with amount of aoe CCs and aoe dmg going on atm….i see every thief dying to that from time to time, doesn’t matter how good they are; even if you don’t run into mark someone else will and you will be affected as well, even if you avoid aoe, you will get pulled into it by something

some of us don’t die to aoe at all. you just need to play smartly. secondly, any buff to thieves isn’t necessarily a good thing. they can op us again and result in more nerfs. I’d rather we let the smoke settle and then see what’s necessary.

Who is this “we”?

vrilek.4038:

The problem with thief class isnt health pool or damage -> its survival. After 10th Dec Thief wont be viable class on 5v5 tpvp type(only one type of pvp anyway since launch). If thieves get +20-30% dmg for all weaponsets and 20% more hp after next patch it still wont be viable class THATS THE REAL PROBLEM;)

Sorry but I’d feel like I was playing in godmode if I got that added to the dec10 notes. We need certain buffs and certain trait reworks to open up more builds but we’re not nearly as bad as everyone says. We don’t need a larger health pool but nerfs like the IR change on sword really need to be compensated for in some way. We need the survivability that in instant cast provided. A rework to dancing dagger, cloak and dagger, tactical strike, and pistol whip could make the sword builds viable again.

Unless thief gets some serious attention, and gets some reworks/improvements instead of nerfs, yes, our health pool is too low. Since we have no stability and infusion of shadows is getting nerfed and all other classes have superior healing or barriers to hide behind. I would however rather they actually make useful improvements instead of just boosting HP.

A lot of posts and suggestions have gone around that would actually make some nice improvements to thieves but I feel like when it comes to that getting translated to the devs it ends in a “Well if we did that you might be able to kill a power/deathshroud necro! We can’t have that!” or “You propose that you should be able to catch a Nike Warrior? Pah! Preposterous! You’re a ninja, everyone knows ninjas are supposed to be slower than everything!”

Zacchary.6183:

Who is this “we”?

he refers to trolls like him.

he is trolling like he did in every other topic, writing sentences without any kind of proof of what he says, and without saying his build nor playstyle.

Just something vague about how good he is at playing thief.

back IT: thieves surely have a worst defensive compartment compared to eles or guardians. we are getting a vigor nerf while we should receive access to proection or at least a better access to regeneration. Shadow Protector is one of the dumbest traits ever.