(edited by Novomundum.8325)
Is the thief OP or not?
Good thieves are OP vs scrubs.
You’re about to unleash a storm of QQ-tears from players who can’t counter Thieves and rage-tears from the Thieves angry at their ignorance.
The simple answer is that no, they’re not. The more complicated answer can be found in the 303,494 page “feedback” topic located somewhere on this forum.
all is vain
Hmmm… so basically thieves are hated because of ignorant fools who refuses to open their mind and play the profession to see it for what it truly is?
You’re about to unleash a storm of QQ-tears from players who can’t counter Thieves and rage-tears from the Thieves angry at their ignorance.
The simple answer is that no, they’re not. The more complicated answer can be found in the 303,494 page “feedback” topic located somewhere on this forum.
Hmmm… so basically thieves are hated because of ignorant fools who refuses to open their mind and play the profession to see it for what it truly is?
yep! that’s exactly it.
I would actually argue s/x evasion builds are far more OP than stealth ones, but they are very underused as they require good skill and non-fat hands.
Not really. They appear OP because they are the high risk high reward class, so if you slip up they will slaughter you in seconds, but if you have a buuld well suited to dealing with a thief and dont mess it up then most likely they will be the ones in trouble.
Gunnar’s Hold
You have to separate WvW and sPvP during this debate.
In sPvP: Given the current CC-Cleave and Condition-Cleave meta-game Thieves are only really left with the Evasion spam option because it’s one of the few that actually allows them to go toe-to-toe with some of the classes. Any glassy Backstabbing build will just get you killed near instantly in the clusterkitten that is currently node-fights.
Given the entire scope of balance with stun-cleaving Warriors, Condition-crazy Necros and pet-loving Rangers, no Thieves aren’t overpowered. They are just as cheesy as the other overpowered builds just in less facerolling way.
WvW is a different matter completely.
In Zerg fights and Siege Thieves are borderline kitten . They can barely shoot down a wall and given how commonly the walls are spammed with AoE, can’t contribute much in any Siege situation. Clusterbombing during Zerg clashes is fine, but nothing to write home about. Daggerstorm is about as useful as it gets thanks to Stability but that only lasts a few seconds.
Roaming however is a completely different matter. The currently most popular build is Dagger/Pistol which abuses the combo-field synergy between Black Powder and Heartseeker to chain near infinite stealth. This makes the class nigh immortal in small skirmishes as they can always escape back into stealth and resurface once they’re fully healed. You can’t really kill them reliably with any class without them making mistakes. Your best bet currently is to simply ignore them because their damage isn’t so high and you can easily run away from them.
And yes, I consider any class that can’t really be killed 1v1 to be overpowered. So in that regard, yes, Thieves are OP. But not in the big picture.
I see. So the dp builds is op while everything else is fine. I can’t believe some people are condemning an entire profession based on 1 builds though. seems a bit close minded. But now, what’s the deal with dp? is there really absolutely no way to solve their nigh immortality?
it requires good timing to kill a d/p thief, they usually have only 1 stunbreak, make them waste the stunbreak, once they reveal without a stunbreak u just have to burst them down, you also have to guess a lot while they are invisible, just make sure to turn around / change directions often so they miss their backstabs
I see. So the dp builds is op while everything else is fine. I can’t believe some people are condemning an entire profession based on 1 builds though. seems a bit close minded. But now, what’s the deal with dp? is there really absolutely no way to solve their nigh immortality?
No, the D/P build isn’t overpowered per se, or at least not in sPvP.
D/P’s strength is the ability for infinite stealth. And stealth has always been far more useful in WvW than sPvP.
But given how much more popular WvW is compared to sPvP then it’s far more likely you’ll hear people complain about D/P builds than any other.
The only way I really know of reliably killing any Thief in WvW is spaming them with CC. Playing a Thief myself, getting CC-spammed to death is by far my most common death (and I don’t even play D/P). Stun-Warriors can pull this off by themselves but on most other scenarios you’ll need more than one player.
As a Mesmer knocking a Thief out of his Shadowrefuge followed with some burst is also a good way to secure a kill. But getting to that point is hard enough. A conservative D/P Thief will simply remain in stealth until his HP is back up to 80%.
One weakness all roaming Thieves have though is their massive egos. You can use this to your advantage with a little creativity.
hmmm… using their egos to beat them? How? I guess I can let myself get pretty low and make them think they have the upperhand for a split second, but I am at no where near that level of skill where I can use myself as bait. Guess I need more practice
Near infinite stealth? Nigh invincibility? The hell are you talking about? All it takes to ruin a D/P Thief’s day is an interrupt of some description. I can’t remember the last time a D/P Thief attempted to run away from me and survived (or in reverse, I managed to get away from a competent player).
D/P #4 + them attempting to HS through BP = game over.
all is vain
As an answer to the topic, here is my oppinion
The most complains regarding thieves come from WvWvWvW players who play without an stun breaker ,and lost the karma train. They will provide you evidences regarding how OP’ed is thief , since all they do is press 1 and 6 following an commander. Those are favourite targets for thieves. When it comes to fight 1 vs 1 against an condition engi , double stun warrior, roamning guardians, D/D elementalists , thieves are not so OP anymore, and if they will lose the fights, or if they are more predictable will be able to reset the combat , before they die.
On sPvP stealth is not that good, since you cannot hold or cap points while stealthed
I see. So the dp builds is op while everything else is fine. I can’t believe some people are condemning an entire profession based on 1 builds though. seems a bit close minded. But now, what’s the deal with dp? is there really absolutely no way to solve their nigh immortality?
Well 90+% of my fellow thieves use that spec. Thieves who don’t rely on perma stealth aren’t opd at all. They don’t need the crutch.
I see. So the dp builds is op while everything else is fine. I can’t believe some people are condemning an entire profession based on 1 builds though. seems a bit close minded. But now, what’s the deal with dp? is there really absolutely no way to solve their nigh immortality?
Well 90+% of my fellow thieves use that spec. Thieves who don’t rely on perma stealth aren’t opd at all. They don’t need the crutch.
No. Can you please stop vouching for us?
I see. So the dp builds is op while everything else is fine. I can’t believe some people are condemning an entire profession based on 1 builds though. seems a bit close minded. But now, what’s the deal with dp? is there really absolutely no way to solve their nigh immortality?
Well 90+% of my fellow thieves use that spec. Thieves who don’t rely on perma stealth aren’t opd at all. They don’t need the crutch.
Stealth isn’t a crutch, it’s one of the two viable build types that Thieves have, and acting as though any Thief that plays a stealth build is somehow inferior is plain kittening stupid.
all is vain
And yes, I consider any class that can’t really be killed 1v1 to be overpowered. So in that regard, yes, Thieves are OP. But not in the big picture.
As a D/P Thief myself, I have killed COUNTLESS D/P thieves.
D/P requires really low skill to be played, but really high skill to be somewhat “mastered”. Managing your initiative is key, since you need not to waste your pistol #4, your steal and your Heartseekers in a 1v1 fight.
Anyhow, i can give you at least 4 classes which CAN’T be killed in a 1v1, if specced and played right.
D/D Ele
Healing Signet Warrior
Dire Engineer
Healway Guardian
These combination are IMPOSSIBLE to kill in WvW in a 1v1. Should we call them OP? Nah.
To answer the OP question, no. Thieves are not OP. Most complaints come from zerker people using to steamroll anything in PvE who get oneshotted by the random stealth thief who spots them. Or those with a ego so high that can’t accept the fact that cannot kill an enemy.
Just play as a thief for one month and you’ll learn yourself we are not OP in any way.
(edited by hihey.1075)
Thieves are not OP at all. They are my easiest kill in PvP. Every class gets complaints because bad players like to post about every time they get killed and complain. Its unfortunate but its the way it is. I think the game needs more support but its pretty well balanced at the moment.
I see. So the dp builds is op while everything else is fine. I can’t believe some people are condemning an entire profession based on 1 builds though. seems a bit close minded. But now, what’s the deal with dp? is there really absolutely no way to solve their nigh immortality?
Well 90+% of my fellow thieves use that spec. Thieves who don’t rely on perma stealth aren’t opd at all. They don’t need the crutch.
Stealth isn’t a crutch, it’s one of the two viable build types that Thieves have, and acting as though any Thief that plays a stealth build is somehow inferior is plain kittening stupid.
Well some of we thieves welcome the upcoming challenge, so many of you don’t speak for all thieves either.
I play D/P in WvW and I find it very nifty simply because I trait more defensively/utility. I trait for stealth perks, since the weapon build favors stealth – which makes D/P even greater in my opinion than a D/P user who trait towards more damage. That player may not be able to defeat certain enemy builds, such as bunkers or traits meant to outlast someone.
In return from my traits I get condi cleanse, hp regen, 50% more runspeed, regen on skill use, gain initiative on stealth, to mention some. The lack of crit/power/crit dmg traits I regain by using full zerker gear, which can result in 7-8k backstabs on average (cloth/medium armor).
Due to the stealth perks it can be really forgiving, but this class also built around evasion so I have good endurance upkeep (not as good as S/D, but better than my target), and if I manage to time my dodges well then I may be able to dance around longer out of stealth. However, it is prefered that I continously black powder stealth into backstab.
I can tell from months of WvW that there are many players out there that dont really know how to fight a D/P, such as hitting me while standing inside my black powder which results in blind. It is easier to hate something that you dont understand.
I used to be a power ranger, now not sure anymore
Anyhow, i can give you at least 4 classes which CAN’T be killed in a 1v1, if specced and played right.
D/D Ele
Healing Signet Warrior
Dire Engineer
Healway Guardian
D/D ele – Don’t have any problem with them (fair match though, after dueling a few times against the same ppl, and repeat with different ppl, 50% win/lose ratio)
Healing signet warrior – Keep hitting, don’t run away to give a breathing space except when stunned (which is telegraphed and can be interrupted or dodged)
Dire engineer … the condi engi with turrets? Not sure what the dire engi is but for my current spec I’ll have to agree with this. They wreck me
Healway guardian – Fights take so long that I end up giving up and running away/bow down and call it a draw
GL – “The Afternoon’s Watch” [OATH]
thierfs are OP!
reason: they are better than us rest in pvp and wvw-ing ….pve too !
(edited by DanH.5879)
^Def not a troll, check his signature, this guy speaks the truth
GL – “The Afternoon’s Watch” [OATH]
Not OP, but I feel there’s a potential to abuse stealth for trolling purposes in wvw. The challenge, if you ask me, is to minimize that potential while keeping the stealth mechanics viable for all the respectable thiefs out there.
I see. So the dp builds is op while everything else is fine. I can’t believe some people are condemning an entire profession based on 1 builds though. seems a bit close minded. But now, what’s the deal with dp? is there really absolutely no way to solve their nigh immortality?
Well 90+% of my fellow thieves use that spec. Thieves who don’t rely on perma stealth aren’t opd at all. They don’t need the crutch.
No. Can you please stop vouching for us?
^Please?
Thieves are not over powered. If anything they could use a slight upward adjustment when considering the improvements the rest of the classes have/are receiving.
People don’t complain that Guardians or Warriors are OP in WvW zergtrains. I wonder why. Maybe it’s because they can’t get beat up by them as easily in a 1v1 or 1v2.
Thieves’ strength lies in very small scale skirmishing, while having a structural weakness in larger group combat situations. Other classes strength lies in larger group battles, while their weakness is in the area thief excels.
Only ignoramuses ignorant to that fact say they are an OP class.
Only ignoramuses ignorant to that fact say they are an OP class.
or trolls
This kind of threads are not the same without tales of tyranny and injustice
Where is Burnfall?
Yes. Where is Burnfall?
It’s only OP when I beat someone who gets all upset.
It’s all fun and games until someone gets upset, then it’s comedy.
Ziffy Snidehide, Zadie Hawkkin, Zannie Oakley, Zuulja
[ODIN],[NaCl] – Tarnished Coast
Anyhow, i can give you at least 4 classes which CAN’T be killed in a 1v1, if specced and played right.
D/D Ele
Healing Signet Warrior
Dire Engineer
Healway GuardianD/D ele – Don’t have any problem with them (fair match though, after dueling a few times against the same ppl, and repeat with different ppl, 50% win/lose ratio)
Healing signet warrior – Keep hitting, don’t run away to give a breathing space except when stunned (which is telegraphed and can be interrupted or dodged)
Dire engineer … the condi engi with turrets? Not sure what the dire engi is but for my current spec I’ll have to agree with this. They wreck me
Healway guardian – Fights take so long that I end up giving up and running away/bow down and call it a draw
Oh, I remember you – you were that Charr S/P Thief I met a couple weeks ago :]
Anyhow, with D/D Eles I was pointing at tanky D/D Eles, those guys who no matter what you do, they will still outheal you. The only counter to them is S/D thief, but when things get nasty they can simply pop their FGS and run away (you’ll never catch up to an Ele with FGS).
Dire Engineers are Engis with the new Dire Gear (Condition Damage, Toughness, Vitality). On top of dealing top notch condition damage, they can still tank so well…
Healing Signet Warriors (if properly played) are impossible to kill too: I am not talking about condi warriors, those CAN be killed because even if they have high damage output they don’t have many defensive skills. I am talking about M/S+GS (or hammer) Warriors, who keep getting healed when you are stunned, or when you are weakened, or when they block. Or simply run away with GS and heal themselves.
Keep in mind that I am not speaking from a thief PoV. I am speaking generally. My post was made to answer the guy who said that “I consider any class who can’t be killed in 1v1 as OP”.
(edited by hihey.1075)
I am leveling a P/P + S/D thief for WvW, and as I play the class, I believe I learn a little more as I get closer to max level. I used to believe thieves were stupid and if I saw one I would immediately turn the opposite way and avoid a fight at all cost. That was 3 months ago. Before the healing sig buff I started being able to take them down more frequently. To this day I’d say I have a 40 – 60% chance to win, depending on luck and if my skills land. Tbh mesmer is the only class I have never beaten, ever. Thieves are strong, but eventually you will be able to kill them at least once. If not, then idk.
In Short, No they aren’t OP, but they definitely aren’t UP outside of 1v1 vs. certain classes and builds, or any class really.
I see. So the dp builds is op while everything else is fine. I can’t believe some people are condemning an entire profession based on 1 builds though. seems a bit close minded. But now, what’s the deal with dp? is there really absolutely no way to solve their nigh immortality?
Well 90+% of my fellow thieves use that spec. Thieves who don’t rely on perma stealth aren’t opd at all. They don’t need the crutch.
Stealth isn’t a crutch, it’s one of the two viable build types that Thieves have, and acting as though any Thief that plays a stealth build is somehow inferior is plain kittening stupid.
Exactly, Exactly, Exactly….
I see. So the dp builds is op while everything else is fine. I can’t believe some people are condemning an entire profession based on 1 builds though. seems a bit close minded. But now, what’s the deal with dp? is there really absolutely no way to solve their nigh immortality?
Well 90+% of my fellow thieves use that spec. Thieves who don’t rely on perma stealth aren’t opd at all. They don’t need the crutch.
Stealth isn’t a crutch, it’s one of the two viable build types that Thieves have, and acting as though any Thief that plays a stealth build is somehow inferior is plain kittening stupid.
Exactly, Exactly, Exactly….
Acting as though a little stealth reveal will matter paints people as poor players.
Hmmm… so basically thieves are hated because of ignorant fools who refuses to open their mind and play the profession to see it for what it truly is?
You’re on the thief sub-forums, are you really expecting to get a fair answers? I’m sorry, but anyone who tells you this is just ignorant or a thief lover. There are legitimate complaints to be levied against thieves, and also bad ones that are levied unfairly. My and my friend (600 and 1600 hours in the game, respectively) both believe thief to be ridiculously overpowered in a 1v1 setting in WvW on certain builds. I consider my own character overpowered, but I simply have no way to counter a thief who can nearly perma-stealth, it’s not possible for me. I die within a few seconds and am hardly able to get any hits off. The problem is less severe in SPvP, and IMO they’re not OP in PvE. But, anyone who says they’re perfectly fine and it’s 100% due to everyone’s ignorance is ignorant or lying.
FTR, my friend has a max level thief and I have multiple max levels and almost all of my time in game has been spent in PvP.
Again, you’re not going to get a fair answer in these sub-forums. Too many people here are thieves that can’t really give you a fair answer. That doesn’t invalidate their opinion, but it’s easier to give a fair opinion when you’re not as invested in the class (not against it).
Darkhaven Commander
Co-leader of [Sold]
A thief is OP against bad players and/or glass cannons.
There most certainly are counters to thieves, play one and you find that out pretty kittening fast. That said it is not hard to play this profession and the skill required to use stealth is lower than the skill needed to counter it.
I’ve been running and d/d thief in WvW for about a month now, it quite quickly became my main roaming class. One thing I noticed is thieves get a lot of grief in game from people spamming emotes and/or jumping on your body after 10 of them are finally able to pin you down. I never had this much hate on other classes.
D/P thieves are just a little… much at the moment, imo.
JQ
(edited by Myst.5783)
Thieves are nothing without stealth.
Blackgate since day one.
IMO stealth needs a slight nerf and thieves need less access to it in terms of weapon skills…but in return they need to be given a boost in survivability at the same time to make up for less stealth. I know I’ll be getting flak for this statement due to wanting to nerf stealth, but they need to do this that way it won’t just cut down on the annoyances in WvW, but it’ll also power you guys up so you’ll be better for PvE and sPvP, and who doesn’t want that?
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
They are OP! The thief community is very smart and also because of this they can figure out the small advantages and unfortunately others need to come to thief forum and complain “nerf stealth, nerf stealth” malarky. Thieves have been hit hard and the community still figures out how to make it a good class.
In summary to your question, its not the thief “character” that’s good, its the thief player, and because of that others will always rage!
The real problem with stealth is the ability to reset fights at will, this is quite OP, not the stealth it self, it’s a broken mechanic that is going to be fixed, at least a bit of logic.
…
I’m sorry I don’t remember you .. I duel so many ppl. What class/server?
GL – “The Afternoon’s Watch” [OATH]
Unfortunately, thief is the exact opposite of OP. It’s probably the second weakest class right now. A thief is good at killing noobs though and unfortunately, that is who posts in the forums a lot.
Unfortunately, thief is the exact opposite of OP. It’s probably the second weakest class right now. A thief is good at killing noobs though and unfortunately, that is who posts in the forums a lot.
Exactly my point, second weakest class, and whole bunch of folk complaining about “nerf stealth, nerf stealth” and still get owned! Im sorry if you nerf stealth I want heavy armour stats!
Unfortunately, thief is the exact opposite of OP. It’s probably the second weakest class right now. A thief is good at killing noobs though and unfortunately, that is who posts in the forums a lot.
What the kitten?
(edited by Master of Timespace.2548)
Respectfuly and Honorally Thankful to this thief…
More Truths… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpUk9QvJ8bE
After 13 months, how much more Truths do you need?
(edited by Burnfall.9573)
After 13 months, how much more Truths do you need?
Personally, I’d like all of them.
By Ogden’s hammer, what savings!