Q:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Alpine-Maps-fine-tuning/first#post6139462
Q:
I leveled up a thief to learn how to counter it better. Got to 80, put on some yellow berserk gear. Went to WvW, had some fights. Fun class. but broken class, broken in the way that it’s a bit to powerful. On avg, my backstabs are hittinfg from 6k-10k…. and i just feel this is a bit to much for what the class can do outside the lines of overall game balance.
-Stealth should not allow you to cap or delay an objective.
-Backstab should cost points to use
-When damaged in stealth, you should become slightly visible(as if you are still 90% in stealth, with no name appear)
-when you use any of your weapon abilities while in stealth, stealth should break, even if your attack is missed, or blocked, or evaded.
That will then justify the raw damage this class can easily perform.
/discuss
A:
-Stealth should not allow you to cap or delay an objective.
agreed. it doesn’t let you cap or delay in sPvP. not really sure why it lets us in WvW, especially when some of the circles are much much larger.
-Backstab should cost points to use
i could live with that. anything between 1-3 initiative would be ok by me
-When damaged in stealth, you should become slightly visible(as if you are still 90% in stealth, with no name appear)
i could understand damage numbers appearing due to DoT’s, but partially visible is still visible. in fact, i think that damage originally may have made thieves partially visible, but it made stealth pretty much worthless. that’s just based on my memories of the first time i tried WvW around the time of the launch, so i might be wrong about that.
-when you use any of your weapon abilities while in stealth, stealth should break, even if your attack is missed, or blocked, or evaded.
miss, no. block definitely. after all, it hit something, it just got blocked. evade….. i’m not sure about, but i’d learn toward ok on it. since i’m figuring someone getting hit with CnD, then dodging immediately. realistically, the air movements and sound would expose the attackers position, since it’s really close quarters.
That will then justify the raw damage this class can easily perform.
/discuss
as has been stated, though, WvW is a bad place to pull numerical reference from. people can get in there at level 2, with starting gear, and no talent or skill points. in that situation, they could end up getting absolutely annihilated by a lone yak. everyone will be putting up huge numbers against them.
you eat 6k damage from NPC
and you 2 shots an lvl 20 enemy . Please tell me that you hit with heartseeker for 9 k an player lvl 80 with equipent on. Because i never hit anybody more then 4000
what else you want to discuss.
WvW is the worst example you can pick, the other day in the Eternal battleground jumping puzzle i accidentally hit an uplevelled mesmer from another server with my autoattack and that took like pretty much 1/3 of his health, two hits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ru_rXq2LYg0
^ warrior doing even more damage with piercing from long distance. Any other questions?
You know who is level 80 and who is not, by the simple green arrow on the players name.
-6kdamage from an upgraded objective NPC, yep. happens to everyone.
-not level 20, did not have the green arrow near the players name.
-again, on avg i do 6k-10k backstabs, and ave 2k-5kheartseekers
-WvW is not the worst example you can pick, it’s the standard. because it is what most players will be playing for the majority of the time that do WvW/PvP
-Warrior is not invisible. You know what and where to avoid.
If you dont understand why WvV is the worst example you can pick to balance on then there is no need to discuss any further.
your trying to justify everything the thief can do, simply because it’s WvW?
No there is just simply far too much variables in WvW. Food, Gear, in the pasts the orbs (and they will come back in the future, they are being reworked i believe) where all the gear in S and Tpvp is actually normalized for everybody and you fight on even grounds, provided a better platform to work with. somestimes im at 20+ stacks of might in WvW and am hitting ppl for 5k – 6k clusterbombs because everyone is spamming their stuff like mad. the other day i was hit by an 8k blunderbus from an engineer in a jumping puzzle while i was afk. if thief damage is balanced or not, ill leave to that Anet.
These threads are getting ridiculous. Seriously can we not have the thief forum to discuss profession advice and builds as well as weapon set ups? Or is this sub-forum going to be continuously flooded with the same threads. If you want to complain do it on one of the other 362936 thief complaint threads. Stay out of this profession forum.
ALL burst damage needs to be toned down, not jus thieves, warriors, engies, shatter mesmers, all of it.
This is getting frustrating, that our profession forum keeps getting hi-jacked by complaint threads screaming nerf thief.
Nerfs are coming on the 15th kittening leave it at that.
if you read my feedback, i am not suggestion a reduction in damage at all.
You know who is level 80 and who is not, by the simple green arrow on the players name.
-6kdamage from an upgraded objective NPC, yep. happens to everyone.
-not level 20, did not have the green arrow near the players name.
-again, on avg i do 6k-10k backstabs, and ave 2k-5kheartseekers
-WvW is not the worst example you can pick, it’s the standard. because it is what most players will be playing for the majority of the time that do WvW/PvP
-Warrior is not invisible. You know what and where to avoid.
i would belived that you backstab 10 k on an normal player if i didn’t saw the 9 k heartseeker on the screen.
that means you can run arround with 2-2-2-2 4 heartseeker 35k damage
however you say in your post that you do average heartseeker 2500 -5000 and average backstab 6-10 k .
So how come you post screen with 9 k heartseeker and only 10k backstab, something does not match over here.
Anyway i am happy for you , that you finaly discovered an overpowered class, called thief , and i wish you good luck on it.
But no , is all an lie ,because the player was either naked or underleveled. Under no other circumstances , you will hit with only rare items equiped 9k with heartseeker..
Look it’s a screenshot.
if you read my feedback, i am not suggestion a reduction in damage at all.
Post a video if you want to prove something.
No one is going to consider your suggested changes when your thread title is “Is this not broken?” on a topic that we already have 20 other threads on.
-Stealth should not allow you to cap or delay an objective.
Agreed.
-Backstab should cost points to use
Disagree. A thief already has to us a weapon skill using half their initiative, a utility or a trait to achieve stealth. It’s a bit rich asking to use more initatove to actually hit something on top of all that.
-When damaged in stealth, you should become slightly visible(as if you are still 90% in stealth, with no name appear)
Disagree. There are AoE effects that hit the entire area of Shadow Refuge. Other stealth only last 3 seconds. If the first point in your post is addressed, this request becomes mostly redundant anyway.
-when you use any of your weapon abilities while in stealth, stealth should break, even if your attack is missed, or blocked, or evaded.
Blocked or evaded, yes. A miss, no.
That will then justify the raw damage this class can easily perform.
The class already has the lowest health and only medium armor, while in some regards being kittened by the initiative system. I don’t think too much needs to be done to ‘justify’ the burst damage. That is what Anet want the class capable of afertall.
your trying to justify everything the thief can do, simply because it’s WvW?
WvW has your PvE equipment. Often times you can attack someone wearing lvl 20-50 armor and you’ll have full exotics, lending to insane damage.
Heck, kitten P I’ve leveled players by shadow stepping, pistol whil and pop haste. In less then a second they’re dead because I did over 20k worth of damage. Does this make Pistol Whip broken? no. It means they were under geared and melted before the awesomeness of a full exotic equip.
Another example is I’ve had cluster Bomb do 6k damage…vs a properly geared player it’ll do 1-2k damage.
You know… I have looked this post over a few times and I have come to the conclusion that this is broken… The thief is doing far too little damage it should be 16-18k not 6-8k. What do you guys think? After all if I had stealth I wouldn’t bother stabbing anyone. I would jump on their back yank back their head. Then slit their throat right under their helmet strap.
(edited by Fixeon.5076)
Thief main here and I feel that i’ve explored every way to play in the different build and weapon set options.
I actually agree with everything you said, regarding backstab itself.
my opinion is initiative cost wouldn’t make sense on it but a cooldown of 10 to 20 seconds would, along with a mechanic that can also reset this cooldown when you use another ability— perhaps the chance could be anytime you go into stealth or steal.
What if steal’s cooldown had a chance to reset on other actions instead of gaining shorter recharge when built in trickery?
In addition, I feel like that type of mechanic makes far more sense than the pure initiative only on the thief’s highest damage attacks. They should cost less initiative than they do right now with zero recharge, then have low to moderate cooldowns at an average of 8 seconds which get slight chance to finish when spending initiative, stealing, landing a critical, or going into stealth.
If you like, bring this idea INTO the initiative system by giving us the same proc as a little buff (like the revealed one) making our next attack cost no initiative or regenerate some for a few attacks as well. Then you can create a mix with short cooldowns, that sometimes reset, and a more interesting active resource experience that is less reliant on choosing an efficient build.
(edited by obtuse.8291)
WvW is a very bad example to base your stats on. Everyones gear at completely different levels (you could be in full yellow level 80, but base your stats fighting a level 20 with no traits with full blue level 15 gear). Try sPvP, where gear is much more balanced.
Anywho…. this whole “HURR NERF THIEF BACKSTAB OP HALP” stuff is getting lame. Just wait until the 15th, then you’ll get your precious nerf that everyone in the GW2 community is waiting for (oh and our buffs).
Then you’ll complain that some smart genius has creative another overpowered build. Before that happens; everyone will jump to use a Warrior or Guardian in sPvP. I predict Necro’s, Engineers and Mesmers will be top sPvP class next patch however.
But yes, I do support the backstab nerf (and I’ve only ever ran a Thief)…
Also, all of testpigs idea’s on the thief completely ruins the main ability we have. Stealth shouldn’t be nerfed one bit. There’s nothing wrong with stealth. In fact, if you can’t time 3 seconds, or you can’t predict when a thief will strike from when they first stealth, that makes you a bad PvPer; doesn’t make the mechanic broken at all. It’s the same way if you complain that a skill with a long cast-time does a lot of damage/adds a lot of condition. If you’re too blind to see the cast, that’s your own fault, not the skills. Cast Time =/= High Damage.
The only thing we need is a reduction in burst damage in skills, damage reduction of the trait Mug, and to fix stealth culling.
(edited by Dervy.7901)
Wrong forum
Wrong game
This game is not about amount of damage. It is about taking or not taking it.
If anything, it is pure defensive builds that need to vanish. Because that IS stupid in a game without any kind of direct support role. Unlike any damage there is.
Sure, you can let damage thieves take in stealth make them “Predator” transparent, but then you have to give them perma stealth for at least initiating combat. (only useable out of combat).
Sure you can give backstab an initiative cost, but you have to make it do more then damage, currently it only benefits 1 build, have it do conditions as well
So you went to WvW and had “some fights” and now you can decide the fate of an entire class based on some random WvW players?
lol everyone screaming for backstab build nerf LOLsauce. I pop haste and do 3 unloads on someone at 900 range, dead. haha. everyone always remembers the losses to a thief.
I give you an example of a pessimist, you drive down a road with 10 sets of lights and hit 3 red 7 green, at the end you say… why did I get so many red lights.
I give you an example in terms of thief. you enter a zerg fight and kill 5 players, you start to run away with 50% or 25% health and get finished of by a stealth+mug,backstab,heartseaker build.
It’s justified.
-Warrior is not invisible. You know what and where to avoid.
You´re right, he´s not invisible, but also he can perform the shot from the range of 1500 :-) with basically double the Thief´s HP and much higher base armor. See the point?
Thief on desolation is looking for a killshot warrior to work together in wvw. I will give stealth on demand for a safe execution of killshot and will only ask to stop qq in return.
TS is a must.
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