Guild Wars 2

So I’ve made a thief as my 3rd character, after a necro and a mesmer. I’m getting to the level where I’m starting to think about what elite I want, and I honestly can’t say I like any of them. I’m going with dual pistol crit build with lots of stealth for the pistol’s stealth breaker 5 shot thing.

None of the elites really synergize with what I’m trying to do. I’ll probably do the spin to win one as an “oh crap gtfo” thing, and I guess it does do a lot of hits to proc crits off of. Unless someone has a better suggestion. It mostly doesn’t match my conceptualization of my character with the whirling daggers… It would be neat if having pistols equipped caused it to shoot bullets instead. :P

The really weird thing to me is, why Theives guild? The spawning of extra thieves doesn’t really seem like much of a class defining thing, it would almost make more sense to have something like that as a mesmer skill (well, it is basically Mirror Image). At the same time, why no stealthing elite? I would suggest stealing Mesmer’s Mass Invis, except we kinda already have that with the sanctuary T3 utility thing…

Pardon the rambling, but I’m curious if people agree that the thieves elites are rather lackluster, or if there are other classes that are even worse. For my MM necro Flesh Golem was a no-brainer, and while I initially had trouble choosing my mesmer’s I went with Time Warp because it is so powerful, and it helped me get scepter clones out really fast.

Yeah they are pretty lackluster, thieves guild is really the only thing you should be using imo.

I dont think they’re lackluster at all, they are quite good in comparison to what some other classes have.

Dagger storm is good for WvW, Thieves guild is good for sPvP. I generally find bask venom to be meh aside from it’s common obvious use.

Thieves Guild, and Daggerstorm are great.

The venom is, unfortunately, only good for the cheesy backstab build.

They’re not on the level of mesmer elites, but that’s a high bar to go for.

Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild are great elites. You just need to swap them in different situations. But if we are talking about more skills then I wouldn’t mind elite trap or elite signet…

Personally I think both Daggerstorm and Thieves Guild are fine (though the thieves of Thieves Guild look real bizarre with the bright yellow armor). But Basilisk Venom is a problem. The shortsighted design of it almost assures that it will either be terribly overpowered or terribly weak based upon the numbers, and will only ever see use in very niche builds.

Grimwolf.7163:

The shortsighted design of it almost assures that it will either be terribly overpowered or terribly weak based upon the numbers, and will only ever see use in very niche builds.

On the upside, the blandness of it means that simply making it into a utility skill and replacing it with a new elite would work pretty well. Optionally, just merge it with Devourer Venom.

I’m glad we finally had this discussion, my 2 cents:

I also believe we need an elite to syn with dual pistols as this is my build. thieves guild is good, but just doesn’t feel right. maybe a gun manouver or grenade throw like an engineer? I don’t know, but I agree with OP that they need to look at this for dual pistols.

ddrake.5436:

I’m glad we finally had this discussion, my 2 cents:

I also believe we need an elite to syn with dual pistols as this is my build. thieves guild is good, but just doesn’t feel right. maybe a gun manouver or grenade throw like an engineer? I don’t know, but I agree with OP that they need to look at this for dual pistols.

Since elites dont have anything to do with what weaps you have equipped, I doubt they will make an elite specifically with dual pistols in mind.

In PVE thieves guild is a mandatory, and for zerg dagger storm ofc.

The venom probably isn’t that bad for P/P builds. If you consider a main “weakness” of that build is people dodging away most of the Unload or the sneak 1 skill, applying the Basilik venom before you use those will ensure at least 1.5s of immobility on the target without eating away one of your utility slots. Besides, as an elite on a 45s CD it’s pretty nice and available often.

The efficiency of Basilik Venom does depend a LOT on your build, trait and gear. For example, for your own build you could go full Lyssa rune set to get 10% condition duration bonus and precision. Basilik Venom becomes then for you a powerful full condition condition removal skill on a 50s CD but 1s cast time :p (yes 50s CD, the proc from the 6th rune of the set has such a CD) You also get all the boons at once.

It also gets rather powerful with venom share and this trait is probably the reason why it was nerfed with a cast time in the first place. And the fact it doesn’t stack duration too.

I don’t think Basilik Venom is a bad elite outside of backstab build really but it does take specific situations to make it work ok.

sadly both lyssa and monk runes set have a cd on their effect that exceeds basilisk cd by a solid margin. I did build my thief for lyssa/monk and had to find it out the hard way.
Devourer venom is by far superior to basilisk.

The wiki says the CD is 50s which isn’t exactly a solid margin above the 45s CD of Basilisk. maybe the wiki is wrong though?

Dagger Storm is extremely overrated by bad players. The dagger throwing itself is awful against anything other than huge groups. If you’re facing a bad player, they will just let you spin around and cower in fear or switch to range (which sadly does happen and I laugh anytime it does). I’ve never had a problem with thieves using Dagger Storm. I just jump on them with any of the classes I play and instantly kill them, since they are only a threat if they’re a glass cannon build.

Thieves Guild is honestly our only good elite. It’s good in basically every situation, but mainly because people (and monsters) actually focus them.

Basilisk Venom is good in two builds: venom sharing builds and Backstab builds. On paper, it’s awful. A 1.5 second stun that can be broken out of. Other classes have higher CC on regular abilities. However, because people are abusing it on a build that has no CC otherwise, it seems better than it really is. No one even uses a break stun to get out of it. They just wait, as if it can still not be broken out of.

Krathalos.3461:

Dagger Storm is extremely overrated by bad players. The dagger throwing itself is awful against anything other than huge groups.

Which covers pretty much every situation except s/tPvP. Dagger Storm is an amazing elite that is, like all elites, somewhat situational. Both Thieves’ Guild and Basilisk Venom are also easy to counter, the fact that there is a viable way to deal with Dagger Storm does not diminish its strength as an elite. The effectiveness of dagger storm is also vastly increased if you know how to move while using it and when to cancel it. People say it is as simple as walking up to the thief and using melee, but a good thief should be dictating range so the only viable way to do that is to burn a closer. For thieves themselves, this is easy, thieves have a wealth of closers and it creates the impression that Dagger Storm is easy to counter on the whole when in reality many professions don’t have tools as suited for the job as thieves.

That said, a lot of people refuse to look beyond 1v1 when measuring the use of an ability. Dagger Storm is a poor choice for a duel, but definitely not underpowered as an ability.

Dagger storm is epic when used right. In one-on-one fights it can provide crucial defense against ranged attacks on demand and in groups it can be used to reflect projectiles not only shot at you but also at your allies. At that, this is the longest-lasting mass projectile reflecting field that can be moved.

Dagger Storm’s reflection effect slaughters ranged mobs in PvE.
Thieves’ Guild puts a fair amount of pressure on opponents in small-group PvP.
These really aren’t bad skills.

Tulisin.6945:

Krathalos.3461:

Dagger Storm is extremely overrated by bad players. The dagger throwing itself is awful against anything other than huge groups.

Which covers pretty much every situation except s/tPvP. Dagger Storm is an amazing elite that is, like all elites, somewhat situational. Both Thieves’ Guild and Basilisk Venom are also easy to counter, the fact that there is a viable way to deal with Dagger Storm does not diminish its strength as an elite. The effectiveness of dagger storm is also vastly increased if you know how to move while using it and when to cancel it. People say it is as simple as walking up to the thief and using melee, but a good thief should be dictating range so the only viable way to do that is to burn a closer. For thieves themselves, this is easy, thieves have a wealth of closers and it creates the impression that Dagger Storm is easy to counter on the whole when in reality many professions don’t have tools as suited for the job as thieves.

That said, a lot of people refuse to look beyond 1v1 when measuring the use of an ability. Dagger Storm is a poor choice for a duel, but definitely not underpowered as an ability.

Small scale battles happen in WvW, whether or not people like to admit it. Dagger Storm is useless in these situations unless you’re playing against some awful ranged player, in which case you can just jump on them and kill them faster. As for PvE, yeah, Dagger Storm can be good against huge groups of monsters. But this isn’t every situation in PvE. I don’t see how you can possibly think it is. Hell, a lot of the time, you can just stand there spinning for 3-5 seconds and hit nothing.

WvW isn’t just zerg vs. zerg. There are in fact small battles there too.

PvE isn’t just huge groups of monsters vs. you.

I’m not saying it’s a bad skill. I’m saying it’s extremely overrated and not anything near OP like some people like to claim.

Also, claiming that you can just interrupt it is a rather detrimental way to support your post. Having to interrupt your elite on a 90 second CD (which albeit is rather short for an elite) doesn’t make it ‘good.’ This means you just lost your elite while your enemy will more than likely still have theirs up. Immobilize also completely wrecks Dagger Storm.

P.S. I wasn’t talking about simply Thief vs. Thief in terms of killing one using Dagger Storm extremely easy.

In comparison to guardians, thieves elites are amazing.

Thieve’s Guild and Dagger Storm are both pretty solid. Basilisk Venom is terrible oustide of very specific niche applications and the venoms in general need to be redesigned.

Krathalos.3461:

Immobilize also completely wrecks Dagger Storm.

Except that most immobilizes are ranged, and lead to the target immobilizing their self.

Daggerstorm also provides stability – which persists even if you cancel out of the animation with a dodge. I’ve used this to escape a mad zerg more than once.

I tested the Lyssa rune 6th set bonus in sPvP and it applied all the boons each time I used the Basilisk Venom on CD. I didn’t try with the shorter venom CD trait though but so far it seems reliable.

Compared to elementalist, the thief elites are amazing. I solidly hate all of my ele elites for different reasons

Compared to Warrior, they’re more interesting than everyone using sigil of rage. Although most classes would take sigil of rage in a heartbeat.

Daggerstorm is good in many ways, but not great at anything (stability and reflect alone are very powerful). It’s not like you can’t dodge out of a melee bomb

Daggerstorm is probably one of the BEST elite skills there is in this game…

For those who are wondering, the Rune of Lyssa cooldown is 45 seconds. If you have the reduced venom time by 20% trait, you have to wait 9 additional seconds to get all boons, or cycle every other Basilisk Venom application. If you run without, it will activate all times for you.

My preferred elite skill is Basilisk Venom. Why? Because it fits into my build element, control. From which it does an excellent job. It serves many roles, but my favorite is it’s protection it offers me. It’s my get out of jail free card. Combined with Mug, I can steal onto my attacker instantly stopping their attack. It has saved my numerous times against burst warriors and thieves.
Daggerstorm is weak against those who understand it. People who don’t will stay in range of the daggers, and fire into it, essentially killing themselves.
Thieves Guild is ok. I think it’s mostly used to add to burst damage or a distraction. They offer certain abilities such as scorpion wire. I don’t use it mainly because it doesn’t fit into my build, it has a long cooldown, and I don’t NPCs in this game.

Daggerstorm is bad in almost all situations, especially in PvE, and Thieves Guild is better than decent in almost all situations. Basilisk Venom is only good for the Backstab combo. I’m sure our elite skills are better than some of the other classes, but nothing compares to the Moa elite mesmer skill in my opinion (in terms of PvP-type activities).

Thieves have it a lot better than so many other classes.

I’ve tried a Sword/Dagger 30/0/30/10/0 venom build, with Rune of the Mesmer. Basicaly I can daze my targets around 4sec with a Tactical Strike and with my Poisononous Aura I can make multiple people proc Basilisk Venom, stack vulnerability and weakness or immobilisation on a target, turning it into a sitting duck during the whole fight.

And there is also another version that works with Healing power items that can turn your Thief in a real support healer.

Very good build in sPvP while fighting Bunker Guardians and very good at interupting people trying to finish off your team.

Krathalos.3461:

But this isn’t every situation in PvE. I don’t see how you can possibly think it is. Hell, a lot of the time, you can just stand there spinning for 3-5 seconds and hit nothing.

In open world PvE the target environment is pretty much dictated by how much you want to pull, unless you’re somewhere with a low spawn rate. If you’re not creating the right environment for your abilities to be effective, it isn’t a fault of the abilities. For dungeons, there are more fights where Daggerstorm is suboptimal, but even most bosses have add spawn waves.