Guild Wars 2

Larcenous strike is an unblockable attack, after the patch, Flancking Strike will only change to Larcenous Strike IF it hits, so it Flanking Strike gets BLOCKED, it wont change to Larcenous Strike, what good is unblockable LS if we cant use it if someone is blocking?!

Remove the “unblockable” part of the sill and make it steal 2 boons again maybe?!

Because otherwise you wouldn’t be able to steal Aegis

Just because someone isn’t blocking when you use FS doesn’t mean they won’t be blocking when you decide to use LS.

Dahkeus.8243:

Just because someone isn’t blocking when you use FS doesn’t mean they won’t be blocking when you decide to use LS.

I agree, but I also agree that it should take 2 boons again given the added difficulty in using the skill.

Dahkeus.8243:

Just because someone isn’t blocking when you use FS doesn’t mean they won’t be blocking when you decide to use LS.

sure but if they are blocking when you use FS it will NOT change to LS so what good is it being unblockable if you don’t have access to it wile you enemy is blocking?

Not to mention you will probably drain all you init by accident if that happens because you will perform 2 FS (4 init each) and they will most likely be both blocked

It is a paradox only when a single aegis, before FS, is applied. It is not a paradox if the player applies aegis inbetween the two skills hitting, or if they start using a skill like shelter or gear shield in between the two hits.

TrOtskY.5927:

It is a paradox only when a single aegis, before FS, is applied. It is not a paradox if the player applies aegis inbetween the two skills hitting, or if they start using a skill like shelter or gear shield in between the two hits.

and what are the odds of that?…

Not as low as you think.

TrOtskY.5927:

Not as low as you think.

Sorry but I disagree, the chances of an enemy using a blocking ability in between FS and LS are minimal… not to mention that the buff FS/LS receved in december made in an anti-bunker build that now is hard countered by bunkers… ironic right?

Note: I played S/D for a long time but changes spec and weapon set about 2 month ago, this nerf does not affect me directly but I can’t agree with it since is simply counter intuitive, it makes no sense having an ability that cant be blocked as a 2nd in chain were the first attack can be blocked….

Volrath.1473:

TrOtskY.5927:

Not as low as you think.

Sorry but I disagree, the chances of an enemy using a blocking ability in between FS and LS are minimal… not to mention that the buff FS/LS receved in december made in an anti-bunker build that now is hard countered by bunkers… ironic right?

Note: I played S/D for a long time but changes spec and weapon set about 2 month ago, this nerf does not affect me directly but I can’t agree with it since is simply counter intuitive, it makes no sense having an ability that cant be blocked as a 2nd in chain were the first attack can be blocked….

Newbies often spam a bunch of stunbreaks and blocks and heals when taking spike damage. If the spike damage comes at the same time you are performing FS, then there is a chance your opponent will proc some form of block. It’s not impossible and certainly not as unlikely as you say. The issue is whether FS>LS is affected by the initial FS block, or if it continues to chain after a block.

I made a thread about this already.

Volrath.1473:

TrOtskY.5927:

Not as low as you think.

Sorry but I disagree, the chances of an enemy using a blocking ability in between FS and LS are minimal… not to mention that the buff FS/LS receved in december made in an anti-bunker build that now is hard countered by bunkers… ironic right?

Note: I played S/D for a long time but changes spec and weapon set about 2 month ago, this nerf does not affect me directly but I can’t agree with it since is simply counter intuitive, it makes no sense having an ability that cant be blocked as a 2nd in chain were the first attack can be blocked….

It’s just about stealing aegis and preventing people from pre-casting it before entering combat with IS to get unblockable burst damage with a boon strip, free dodge and an escape all in one rotation before the enemy can really do anything. Which mind you, could also just be repeated again. The revamp keeps the skill mostly used as an extra dodge paired with some dual utility. Good players will now also be able to chain FS dodges by purposely not hitting their enemy, or getting a free double dodge effect with the aegis/boon strip (but not steal) on the first FS.

All I see this change did was increase the effectiveness/skill ceiling and diminish effectiveness for those spamming 3.

Volrath.1473:

Dahkeus.8243:

Just because someone isn’t blocking when you use FS doesn’t mean they won’t be blocking when you decide to use LS.

sure but if they are blocking when you use FS it will NOT change to LS so what good is it being unblockable if you don’t have access to it wile you enemy is blocking?

Not to mention you will probably drain all you init by accident if that happens because you will perform 2 FS (4 init each) and they will most likely be both blocked

Then don’t use FS when they’re blocking. =P

After that, you can save LS for a bit and use it when they are.

you can’t really save LS cos the duration is only 3 secs before it reverts to FS.

TrOtskY.5927:

you can’t really save LS cos the duration is only 3 secs before it reverts to FS.

You can save it for 3 seconds.

fine, if you are happy having and unblockable skill that you don’t have access to wile your enemy is blocking then fine! take it!

I don’t even play S/D I was just trying to understand why would anet give us an unblockable skill and a second in chain, isn’t it obvious that if the target is blocking you wont have access to that skill?!

Wouldn’t it be better if the “unblockable” part of the skill was replaced with some other effect like stealing 2 boons instead of 1? or apply poison? it’s just that being unblockabe or not is irrelevant since it is the 2nd ability on a chain that only flips IF you HIT the target…

Volrath.1473:

fine, if you are happy having and unblockable skill that you don’t have access to wile your enemy is blocking then fine! take it!

I don’t even play S/D I was just trying to understand why would anet give us an unblockable skill and a second in chain, isn’t it obvious that if the target is blocking you wont have access to that skill?!

Wouldn’t it be better if the “unblockable” part of the skill was replaced with some other effect like stealing 2 boons instead of 1? or apply poison? it’s just that being unblockabe or not is irrelevant since it is the 2nd ability on a chain that only flips IF you HIT the target…

Well sure, but if ANet wanted S/D easier to play, they wouldn’t have nerfed it.

Dahkeus.8243:

Volrath.1473:

fine, if you are happy having and unblockable skill that you don’t have access to wile your enemy is blocking then fine! take it!

I don’t even play S/D I was just trying to understand why would anet give us an unblockable skill and a second in chain, isn’t it obvious that if the target is blocking you wont have access to that skill?!

Wouldn’t it be better if the “unblockable” part of the skill was replaced with some other effect like stealing 2 boons instead of 1? or apply poison? it’s just that being unblockabe or not is irrelevant since it is the 2nd ability on a chain that only flips IF you HIT the target…

Well sure, but if ANet wanted S/D easier to play, they wouldn’t have nerfed it.

it is not a matter of difficulty of play, it’s a matter of logic, way have an unblockable attack that you cant use when your enemy is blocking?! o.O’ it does not make any sense…

Volrath.1473:

Dahkeus.8243:

Volrath.1473:

fine, if you are happy having and unblockable skill that you don’t have access to wile your enemy is blocking then fine! take it!

I don’t even play S/D I was just trying to understand why would anet give us an unblockable skill and a second in chain, isn’t it obvious that if the target is blocking you wont have access to that skill?!

Wouldn’t it be better if the “unblockable” part of the skill was replaced with some other effect like stealing 2 boons instead of 1? or apply poison? it’s just that being unblockabe or not is irrelevant since it is the 2nd ability on a chain that only flips IF you HIT the target…

Well sure, but if ANet wanted S/D easier to play, they wouldn’t have nerfed it.

it is not a matter of difficulty of play, it’s a matter of logic, way have an unblockable attack that you cant use when your enemy is blocking?! o.O’ it does not make any sense…

I’m sure if they designed the weapon skills from the start with the current meta, they wouldn’t have made LS unblockable, but they most likely left it that way because:
A) Removing that aspect wouldn’t make a big difference on performance, but it would cause more nerf QQ.
B) Since taking away the unblockable aspect wouldn’t make a big difference, there’s no reason to make patch notes longer or to make more changes to the game that returning players would have to get acclimated to.

I.e. Just because it’s strange at this point don’t mean it’s broke, so they ain’t gonna fix it!

GW1 Assassins had a few Unblockable attacks, helped their combos succeed. Please don’t complain about one of the few Assassin aspects we actually got to keep. :/ It’s bad enough having to suffer having your main GW class so neutered already.

LS will actually need it even more now that it’ll never proc anymore if Flanking hits Aegis or misses. They should probably make flanking unblockable too, to compensate. :P

Atherakhia.4086:

Dahkeus.8243:

Just because someone isn’t blocking when you use FS doesn’t mean they won’t be blocking when you decide to use LS.

I agree, but I also agree that it should take 2 boons again given the added difficulty in using the skill.

They’re trying to make it weaker, they perceived it as too strong. It is now more difficult to use, but doubling the utility would be an overall buff to the set.

That being said, if ENGIs are getting buffed, then by all means buff us too

Cam Ron.4170:

nawww, that would make thieves too stronk
must. keep. nerfing.

So, now some people are arguing this is a good change, as it adds more skillful play to a build that already had higher skill floor than most builds in the curret meta? If such ‘skillful play’ is so important to anet, shouldn’t they change builds like turret engineers, Incendiary Powder, MM necroes and bunker guardians, that are known to be the very apex of intellectual play? /sarcasm

Sure, this thing adds more counterplay to the thief, which wouldn’t be a problem without the issue I mentioned earlier. I don’t think this change is a major problem. HOWEVER the logical paradox mentioned by the op stands true; what’s the point of an unblockable skill, if you can’t use it due to beong locked by a skill that is blockable? I don’t think anet really thought this change through before they blazed their guns. As a compensation to an already increased risk, they should make FS unblockable as well, or even have LS at least steal 2 boons instead of 1. S/D was supposed to be a ‘bunker buster’ with LS being unblockable, but even that is now meaningless if no further changes address this.

At least they also added more counterplay to warrior, but they really should address the faceroll builds before increasing skill floor on a build that already demands more than most of the builds. Their course of action is really paradoxal, as they first imply to want to make the game more skillful, but leave things like turrets pretty much untouched and buff things like 1500 ranger pewpew (which will still be unviable against decent teams)?

Ritt.3069:

So, now some people are arguing this is a good change, as it adds more skillful play to a build that already had higher skill floor than most builds in the curret meta? If such ‘skillful play’ is so important to anet, shouldn’t they change builds like turret engineers, Incendiary Powder, MM necroes and bunker guardians, that are known to be the very apex of intellectual play? /sarcasm

Sure, this thing adds more counterplay to the thief, which wouldn’t be a problem without the issue I mentioned earlier. I don’t think this change is a major problem. HOWEVER the logical paradox mentioned by the op stands true; what’s the point of an unblockable skill, if you can’t use it due to beong locked by a skill that is blockable? I don’t think anet really thought this change through before they blazed their guns. As a compensation to an already increased risk, they should make FS unblockable as well, or even have LS at least steal 2 boons instead of 1. S/D was supposed to be a ‘bunker buster’ with LS being unblockable, but even that is now meaningless if no further changes address this.

At least they also added more counterplay to warrior, but they really should address the faceroll builds before increasing skill floor on a build that already demands more than most of the builds. Their course of action is really paradoxal, as they first imply to want to make the game more skillful, but leave things like turrets pretty much untouched and buff things like 1500 ranger pewpew (which will still be unviable against decent teams)?

If you are aiming at AI builds you don’t know the logic of the game so far :“nerf the most used and improve the lesser used”.All AI a will eventually be competitive even spirit weapons and maybe pet (if they put a command to evade) and I find MM weak and turrets can be countered but at least some of them viable enough to attract attention not like it was before.

Back on subject if you only use flanking strike to counter a skill instead of blowing initiative just to go to larcenous strike to"burst quick" you will not miss it and will get the chain. It’s that simple it just made S/D less power bursty than D/P or D/D and your AA still apply weakness and infiltrator return till cleanse one condi it’s not much change and larcenous has reduced initiative cost.

Sagat.3285:

If you are aiming at AI builds you don’t know the logic of the game so far :“nerf the most used and improve the lesser used”.All AI a will eventually be competitive even spirit weapons and maybe pet (if they put a command to evade) and I find MM weak and turrets can be countered but at least some of them viable enough to attract attention not like it was before.

Back on subject if you only use flanking strike to counter a skill instead of blowing initiative just to go to larcenous strike to"burst quick" you will not miss it and will get the chain. It’s that simple it just made S/D less power bursty than D/P or D/D and your AA still apply weakness and infiltrator return till cleanse one condi it’s not much change and larcenous has reduced initiative cost.

I have no problem with all builds being ‘viable’ in the game. I just don’t see the point why should passive playing be rewarded with the same results as a class/build that is reactive?

My strife with the recent patch is the excuse of ‘more skillful play’ anet dishes out at thief, while there are a lot of builds in the neta that are far cheesier and more passive. It’s just a hypocrite excuse to please the masses that didn’t like how S/D played out nor were interested to learning how to counter it.

Nevertheless, I’m not gonna delve into this subject any deeper. The changes won’t personally affect my playstyle too much, and I can’t really make solid decisions before I see the rest of the class balance. But the paradox in logic mentioned by the op is out there; anet should really look at it and rethink how to balance the change.

Ritt.3069:

So, now some people are arguing this is a good change, as it adds more skillful play to a build that already had higher skill floor than most builds in the curret meta? If such ‘skillful play’ is so important to anet, shouldn’t they change builds like turret engineers, Incendiary Powder, MM necroes and bunker guardians, that are known to be the very apex of intellectual play? /sarcasm

Sure, this thing adds more counterplay to the thief, which wouldn’t be a problem without the issue I mentioned earlier. I don’t think this change is a major problem. HOWEVER the logical paradox mentioned by the op stands true; what’s the point of an unblockable skill, if you can’t use it due to beong locked by a skill that is blockable? I don’t think anet really thought this change through before they blazed their guns. As a compensation to an already increased risk, they should make FS unblockable as well, or even have LS at least steal 2 boons instead of 1. S/D was supposed to be a ‘bunker buster’ with LS being unblockable, but even that is now meaningless if no further changes address this.

At least they also added more counterplay to warrior, but they really should address the faceroll builds before increasing skill floor on a build that already demands more than most of the builds. Their course of action is really paradoxal, as they first imply to want to make the game more skillful, but leave things like turrets pretty much untouched and buff things like 1500 ranger pewpew (which will still be unviable against decent teams)?

If you want more ‘skillful’ builds, then don’t argue against the good changes. Yes, in an ideal world, the faceroll builds would be fixed first or at the same time, but at this point there’s no point in asking the devs to dumb down or keep things easy for some builds just because all other builds aren’t up to your standards.

no news from A-net so… I guess we will have to live with another “limited use” skill…

LS the unblocable slill that we don’t have access to when the target is blocking! GREAT!!

The aim for FS+LS is tweaked to favor team play than solo play.

In a team situation, if your target is blocking, you can use FS to a different target who is not blocking then use LS to the one blocking.

Also if your target got hit by FS, then they start to block, you can still hit them with LS.

The soon-to-be-former iteration of pre-casting FS is an exploit that favored solo play, which is not what this skill is all about to begin with.

S/D has always been oriented to team play and ArenaNet is simply bringing it back there.

Right now, you can use Flanking Strike to get Larcenous up without a target. Then just steal/shadowstep and boonstrip (it’s even better if Steal is traited)

So now they are ruining everything again

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The aim for FS+LS is tweaked to favor team play than solo play.

In a team situation, if your target is blocking, you can use FS to a different target who is not blocking then use LS to the one blocking.

Also if your target got hit by FS, then they start to block, you can still hit them with LS.

The soon-to-be-former iteration of pre-casting FS is an exploit that favored solo play, which is not what this skill is all about to begin with.

S/D has always been oriented to team play and ArenaNet is simply bringing it back there.

To be honest, with this new proposed setup they have, if they made LS unblockable as well, they could achieve the pre-casting nerf that you are describing above while maintaining our ability to have counter play to blocks.

But, with the the proposed changes as they currently stand, it really takes away a counter play aspect of a S/D thief, which they really don’t need to be doing.

They could at least buff the boon removal back to stealing 2 boons that way there is more of a reward for pulling off the FS→LS move.

+1 buff the boon steal to 2 …
let me love s/d once again lol

this is the kind of compensation thief needs

Momekic.8603:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The aim for FS+LS is tweaked to favor team play than solo play.

In a team situation, if your target is blocking, you can use FS to a different target who is not blocking then use LS to the one blocking.

Also if your target got hit by FS, then they start to block, you can still hit them with LS.

The soon-to-be-former iteration of pre-casting FS is an exploit that favored solo play, which is not what this skill is all about to begin with.

S/D has always been oriented to team play and ArenaNet is simply bringing it back there.

To be honest, with this new proposed setup they have, if they made LS unblockable as well, they could achieve the pre-casting nerf that you are describing above while maintaining our ability to have counter play to blocks.

But, with the the proposed changes as they currently stand, it really takes away a counter play aspect of a S/D thief, which they really don’t need to be doing.

They could at least buff the boon removal back to stealing 2 boons that way there is more of a reward for pulling off the FS->LS move.

lol @ “reward”. That’s very funny.

Thieves don’t get rewarded, they get punished.