Guild Wars 2

Last Refuge is objectively one of the most hated minor trait in the game. The problem isn’t the design as much as it is its implementation. It works appropriately in situations where you aren’t actively attacking, but it’ll most likely kill you if you are. This is especially true of shadow arts thieves which tend to rely on stealth as a survival mechanic. Being revealed for 3 or 4 seconds against your will when falling below 25% health has to be one of the most frustrating experience in any game I’ve played, and this doubles up when you’re in the process of using cloak and dagger. And I’ve played solo queue in League of Legends, so that speaks for itself.

The fact that this trait hasn’t changed is at best reprehensible, and at worst dread-awful design that most likely illustrates that nobody actively plays a thief at anet. And as much as I’d like to see heads roll on that one, I’ll just casually stash away my frustration and strongly suggest possible changes.

Are you ready to have your mind blown?

Suggestion #1: Replace the trait.

No **** sherlockxygen? Just make it a major trait and replace the minor slot with something that pretty much everybody goes for: Infusion, Cloaked, Protector or Embrace. Or anything else really. Or no trait at all. We, good players won’t be forced to play with the atrocity, and the fans will get to keep their crapstain of a trait. It’s a win-win situation.

Suggestion #2: Fix the trait

How? Well, here’s a little gem for you: Mesmers actually have a way of stealthing despite being revealed. “What?” I can hear you yell at the monitor “Why the hell has this not been done before? Why does the non-stealth class bla bla bla better design bla?” I don’t know. Laziness, incompetence, rigging or sheer oversight. Who knows, who cares? The point is, the stealthing effect provided by Last Refuge could simply be changed to function like Decoy, in that it has its own special little fancy category that doesn’t consider or proc revealed. Note that Decoy will reveal you when broken by attacking, but the point I’m making is that this skill has its own rules, so why wouldn’t Last Refuge do so as well?

Suggestion #3: Delete thieves

Self-explanatory.

edit: Nice job on censoring “isn’t—its”. Above and beyond with fascism.

I would rather completely forgo a minor trait completely rather than have last refuge, why is it in the game? Last Refuge has not helped me in a single situation, yet it has killed me dozens of times.

What annoys me most is how it’s FORCED onto anyone wanting to go shadow arts, there’s a similar talent in trickery (Instinctual Response) but at least that is a Major Trait, so that you can avoid taking it.

How do traits like this even get past the drawing board? surely the people doing balance should of just thrown something heavy at the head of the person who came up with it and left it at that.

Swap it with slowed pulse (which is a bit lackluster in compared to the other Majors anyway) or Shadow Protector.
Failing that delete it completely and create a new minor as swapping it with any of the other adept majors would be a bit to strong for a minor trait.

If push comes to shove and those small changes are to much to ask for just give us the option to disable minor traits for gods sakes.

Oxygen.5918:

Suggestion #3: Delete thieves

Self-explanatory.

can we have option 3 please ?

Oh you reminded me again why I don’t ever specc into shadow arts since the beta weekends. I almost forgot…

The only reasonable option is the second one that you mentioned. Anything else is just stupid, in my opinion.

To be honest, I used to dislike Last Refute, but it wasn’t until recently that I realised that it has saved my butt while roaming in WvW far mire times than it has killed me. It’s actually not a bad trait at all, it just needs to work differently from regular Stealth.

Incurafy.6329:

The only reasonable option is the second one that you mentioned. Anything else is just stupid, in my opinion.

To be honest, I used to dislike Last Refute, but it wasn’t until recently that I realised that it has saved my butt while roaming in WvW far mire times than it has killed me. It’s actually not a bad trait at all, it just needs to work differently from regular Stealth.

Making a life-changing minor trait a major trait instead of a minor one, and replacing it with the essential Infusion, thus allowing the fans to pick it while not forcing the haters into having it, is stupid to you? You clearly haven’t seen stupid then. Just hit the back buton and read any other thread on this forsaken forum. Or take a walk. Suggestion 3 was obviously a joke.

Would a viable option be to swap the trait effect of ‘concealed defeat’ with the effects of ‘last refuge’, so instead of stealthing when below 25%hp you instead drop a smokescreen, and when downed you stealth for 3 secs if you’ve picked up the ‘concealed defeat’ trait, instead of dropping a smokescreen. Especially as a blind/projectile absorb is unlikely to save you when you’re in downed state.

Jakare.6807:

Would a viable option be to swap the trait effect of ‘concealed defeat’ with the effects of ‘last refuge’, so instead of stealthing when below 25%hp you instead drop a smokescreen, and when downed you stealth for 3 secs if you’ve picked up the ‘concealed defeat’ trait, instead of dropping a smokescreen. Especially as a blind/projectile absorb is unlikely to save you when you’re in downed state.

i do not think a-net wants us to be happy, so even if you have a good idea, it won’t be implemented

You could change it with the one that loses condition on entering stealth I guess. But Option #2 is my favorite.

Option 1 would be good, but would need A LOT of balancing. Option 2 IMO will never happen, do you want to be able to attack from stealth and not cause reveal? That is OP. If your talking about already being in the reveal state and Last Refuge triggering and not stealthing you again it’s also OP, double backstab anyone? Mesmer’s don’t have their DPS tied to stealth attacks, which is why they can stealth while being in the revealed state. It sucks when your going for a CnD and LR triggers during the animation yes, but it can also happen when your buddy drops SR or BP. IMO the only thing broken about it is it not triggering due to high stacks of condition damage, but due to the way condition damage works I doubt they can fix it. If this is constantly happening to you it’s a L2P issue, b/c the game makes it VERY obvious that your getting low on health.

Move Meld with Shadows to Adept and Hidden Assassin to Master tree. Last Refuge moves to Grandmaster minor.

Last Refuge - Instantly refresh all Deception utilities when you reach 25% health. (90 second cool down).

I’m playing thief for ~2 weeks now and i’m already hating this trait…since i’m using offhand dagger for stealth i always end up revealing myself when i try to stealth away to heal -.-

/edit: And yes, mesmer decoy works while revealed. It also doesn’t stack with other stealth sources (weird skill/effect…).

+1 make it work like mesmer decoy

For everyone complaining about last refuge…. practice. This is one of the best skills in the game. If you watch your health bar, it will save you way more than hurt you.

style.6173:

For everyone complaining about last refuge…. practice. This is one of the best skills in the game. If you watch your health bar, it will save you way more than hurt you.

I think it’s really based on the unpredictable amount of incoming damage you may suffer. i.e. burst.

If the thief is close to 25% health then he’s probably frantically trying to down the other player.

Well, if you’re never at 25% hp you either fight extremely bad opponents or don’t really pose a threat since you do no damage.

Oxygen.5918:

Incurafy.6329:

The only reasonable option is the second one that you mentioned. Anything else is just stupid, in my opinion.

To be honest, I used to dislike Last Refute, but it wasn’t until recently that I realised that it has saved my butt while roaming in WvW far mire times than it has killed me. It’s actually not a bad trait at all, it just needs to work differently from regular Stealth.

Making a life-changing minor trait a major trait instead of a minor one, and replacing it with the essential Infusion, thus allowing the fans to pick it while not forcing the haters into having it, is stupid to you? You clearly haven’t seen stupid then. Just hit the back buton and read any other thread on this forsaken forum. Or take a walk. Suggestion 3 was obviously a joke.

Yes, that’s exactly what I said, congratulations on your ability to read!

Swapping one of our three most powerful traits in that line (Infusion, Embrace, Cloaked) with Last Refuge would create an imbalance in the Shadow Arts trait-line. As it stands, Thieves who go 30 into SA (which is a lot of us) must choose between the three aforementioned traits for their Adept and Master traits while they take Rejuvenation as their Grandmaster. Allowing Thieves to take all three of these traits in addition to Rejuvenation would be overpowered, and would then result in one of them (or Rejuvenation) being nerfed.

So yes, genius, replacing it would be stupid, but perhaps you haven’t seen stupid so really don’t have any basis for comparison.

Oh, and suggestion #3 was a joke? Well kitten me dead, I never would have known without you telling me! Thank you, oh wise master of subtlety!

EDIT: Just fyi, it’s spelled “fascism”. No insult intended, but it’s a public forum for people of all ages and the censor just happened to pick up a slang word for female breasts, get over it.

panicbutton.1053:

I love the skill. I utilize it as a last resort-gtfo ability.

The trick as stated above is to watch your health — utilize your other stealth skills to regen hp far before you hit 25%. Trigger them around 50-60% to get the cooldowns to start cycling. Generally if you’re at 25% health you’re doing something that got you in trouble. With the average health being 17k, sitting at 25% is asking to be a one hit KO.

Thank you mister I-balance-things-around-MY-gear. Not everyone runs health, so should this trait suddenly become more dangerous then? Absolutely not – that’s awful design.

“watching your health” doesn’t work against burst -typical shatter mesmer can hit upwards to 10k in a second- either, or heck, right in the action of any intense-ish PvP scenario. While I appreciate your perfect world numbers and fluffy bunnies and enthusiasm, I actually don’t appreciate these.

Jormin.2761:

Option 1 would be good, but would need A LOT of balancing. Option 2 IMO will never happen, do you want to be able to attack from stealth and not cause reveal? That is OP. If your talking about already being in the reveal state and Last Refuge triggering and not stealthing you again it’s also OP, double backstab anyone? Mesmer’s don’t have their DPS tied to stealth attacks, which is why they can stealth while being in the revealed state. It sucks when your going for a CnD and LR triggers during the animation yes, but it can also happen when your buddy drops SR or BP. IMO the only thing broken about it is it not triggering due to high stacks of condition damage, but due to the way condition damage works I doubt they can fix it. If this is constantly happening to you it’s a L2P issue, b/c the game makes it VERY obvious that your getting low on health.

Attacking on stealth would still break the attack. It just wouldn’t apply revealed. Are you maliciously trying to misinterprete what I’m typing here? There’s only 1 mesmer skill that lets them stealth and bypass the reveal effect, and to be frank, there’s no real reason for that to even exist. Who cares if it’s obvious that you are low on health? The issue at hand is how clunky the mechanic is.

style.6173:

For everyone complaining about last refuge…. practice. This is one of the best skills in the game. If you watch your health bar, it will save you way more than hurt you.

Just… stop. Please, stop. If you like the trait, have it your way – as a major trait. But don’t screw everybody else. As I’ve illustrated earlier, this is the only minor trait (aka: forced to use) in the game that comes with a potential downside. If you don’t recognize this fact, you are blind. No amount of practice (and condescendence, in your case) will make up for better thought out design and functionality.

Incurafy.6329:

Swapping one of our three most powerful traits in that line (Infusion, Embrace, Cloaked) with Last Refuge would create an imbalance in the Shadow Arts trait-line. As it stands, Thieves who go 30 into SA (which is a lot of us) must choose between the three aforementioned traits for their Adept and Master traits while they take Rejuvenation as their Grandmaster. Allowing Thieves to take all three of these traits in addition to Rejuvenation would be overpowered, and would then result in one of them (or Rejuvenation) being nerfed.

Create an imbalance in the shadow arts trait? You put a whole lot of too much faith into anet. As if any of the trees were remotely balanced to begin with.

Incurafy.6329:

So yes, genius, replacing it would be stupid, but perhaps you haven’t seen stupid so really don’t have any basis for comparison.

I read your post, so here’s my basis.

Incurafy.6329:

Oh, and suggestion #3 was a joke? Well kitten me dead, I never would have known without you telling me! Thank you, oh wise master of subtlety!

Yeah, you guessed in hindsight. After being told. #1

Incurafy.6329:

EDIT: Just fyi, it’s spelled “fascism”. No insult intended, but it’s a public forum for people of all ages and the censor just happened to pick up a slang word for female breasts, get over it.

Thank you for the lesson regarding your beliefs adolf. I’ll be sure to correct my post. Could you have guessed that english isn’t my mother tongue?

As for my criticism, these forums have by far the worst filtering I’ve seen. “Get over it”? Yeah, no. I’m not a sheep nor a mute. I point out bad things in games and anything supporting them, which includes these forums.

I agree with option 1, swap it with a major trait that people use and leave it there for those who favor it so that it doesn’t bone the rest of us.

That being said it cannot be one of the “good” major traits like cloaked in shadow or shadows embrace, that might be a little overbuffed.

(But seriously, if last refuge minor trait was swapped out for “Hidden thief” – stealing grants 2 seconds of stealth – burst thieves would air hump the computer screen in appreciation. Think about it Anet!) Although that might be overbuffed quite a bit.

Oxygen.5918:

Incurafy.6329:

Swapping one of our three most powerful traits in that line (Infusion, Embrace, Cloaked) with Last Refuge would create an imbalance in the Shadow Arts trait-line. As it stands, Thieves who go 30 into SA (which is a lot of us) must choose between the three aforementioned traits for their Adept and Master traits while they take Rejuvenation as their Grandmaster. Allowing Thieves to take all three of these traits in addition to Rejuvenation would be overpowered, and would then result in one of them (or Rejuvenation) being nerfed.

Create an imbalance in the shadow arts trait? You put a whole lot of too much faith into anet. As if any of the trees were remotely balanced to begin with.

Did I suggest that all of the trees are perfectly balanced? No, I did not, I instead pointed out the careful balance between those four traits, being that they are the most powerful and most commonly used in the SA trait-line. Swapping one of these with LR would create an imbalance that would result in a nerf.

Oxygen.5918:

Incurafy.6329:

So yes, genius, replacing it would be stupid, but perhaps you haven’t seen stupid so really don’t have any basis for comparison.

I read your post, so here’s my basis.

Very mature, kudos to you.

Oxygen.5918:

Incurafy.6329:

Oh, and suggestion #3 was a joke? Well kitten me dead, I never would have known without you telling me! Thank you, oh wise master of subtlety!

Yeah, you guessed in hindsight. After being told. #1

Again with the insults, my my, you certainly are full of reason!

Oxygen.5918:

Incurafy.6329:

EDIT: Just fyi, it’s spelled “fascism”. No insult intended, but it’s a public forum for people of all ages and the censor just happened to pick up a slang word for female breasts, get over it.

Thank you for the lesson regarding your beliefs adolf. I’ll be sure to correct my post. Could you have guessed that english isn’t my mother tongue?

As for my criticism, these forums have by far the worst filtering I’ve seen. “Get over it”? Yeah, no. I’m not a sheep nor a mute. I point out bad things in games and anything supporting them, which includes these forums.

No, you speak English quite well, so I had no idea that it wasn’t your native language. That, however, is completely irrelevant. Note that I said “no insult intended”, I was simply correcting you in the politest way possible. If I was being an kitten about it I would have called you an idiot or belittled you for your spelling.

As for pointing things out, great, we should all do that more often, but equating a mild censorship program with a few translation bugs to be ironed out to fascism is just ridiculous, and in that case, yeah, “get over it”.

Now, unless you’re going to give me a reasonable response with an argument that doesn’t involve “you’re wrong, Anet sucks, your post was stupid”, I’m done with this thread.

I logged on this game yesterday for the first time in 2~ weeks to actually play it. I died to last refugee after about 45 minutes in WvW and rage quit.

It’s because we’re unloved by our own creators.

I’m so confused. how is this a bad trait? how is going invisible for free and blinding them bad?

Nausiation.1469:

I’m so confused. how is this a bad trait? how is going invisible for free and blinding them bad?

If it triggers while in the middle of an attack animation then when you hit you’ll be revealed. Now, if this happens during a CnD now instead of stealthing like you intended you’re revealed, out 6 initiative, and below 25% health.

well that sounds like a bug and not the traits fault. it shouldn’t reveal you…that’s not what it is supposed to do..must be a bug.

Nausiation.1469:

well that sounds like a bug and not the traits fault. it shouldn’t reveal you…that’s not what it is supposed to do..must be a bug.

It’s not a bug. When you deal direct damage while stealthed you are revealed. Last Refuge fires instantly and doesn’t interrupt your attack, like Blinding Powder, so if it triggers during an attack animation you will be stealthed and then hit and be revealed.

Incurafy.6329:

style.6173:

For everyone complaining about last refuge…. practice. This is one of the best skills in the game. If you watch your health bar, it will save you way more than hurt you.

Just… stop. Please, stop. If you like the trait, have it your way – as a major trait. But don’t screw everybody else. As I’ve illustrated earlier, this is the only minor trait (aka: forced to use) in the game that comes with a potential downside. If you don’t recognize this fact, you are blind. No amount of practice (and condescendence, in your case) will make up for better thought out design and functionality.

You completely miss the point. It is a big help! I didn’t mean to be condescending. I didn’t know how to use last refuge at first either. Practice does help. You learn when to except it to proc. After awhile, it will save you way more than hurt.

Oxygen.5918:

As I’ve illustrated earlier, this is the only minor trait (aka: forced to use) in the game that comes with a potential downside.

*cough*Reanimator*cough*

What downside should Reanimator have? You don’t rally if you kill the minion so it’s an additional target to TAB through and potential +20 toughnes if you are at least 15 points deep in the traitline.

It may not be a good trait, but it doesn’t hurt the necro in any way.

Iavra.8510:

What downside should Reanimator have? You don’t rally if you kill the minion so it’s an additional target to TAB through and potential +20 toughnes if you are at least 15 points deep in the traitline.

It may not be a good trait, but it doesn’t hurt the necro in any way.

It summons a worthless minion that will aggro enemies, and you have to get it in order to get Staff Mastery and Greater Marks.
So it doesn’t do anything useful but it will unnecessarily pull enemies and there’s nothing you can do about that if you want to use staff.
Also I’m pretty sure you used to be able to rally off of it. And it took them a pathetically long time to fix that.