Guild Wars 2

Why aren’t these traits’ places swapped?

Leeching Venoms -> Deadly Arts.
Revealed Training -> Shadow Arts.

It’s much more reasonable both thematically and mechanically.

No answer for that one…we had a thread discussing it a while ago ( can’t find the link, forum search is a mess :p )

Yeah there was a thread where people were suggesting similar ideas, and traits were getting moved all over the place lol. It happened right after Venomshare went baseline, if that helps you with the timeframe for finding it.

My assumption is SA is about staying in stealth and benefiting from being in stealth whereas revealed training is getting out of stealth.

For venoms….i…er……uhhh……can’t answer that one.

Yeah i wish they would swap it. I would use the venom trait over the immob trait just for the better sustain.
I dropped critical strikes for deadly arts just because of the new nice buffs we got. I hapoe they streamline it further.

Hi preacher. Meet the choir.

Deadly Arts is about dealing more damage or opening up enemies to more damage under various circumstances. That’s why you have traits like Revealed Training (more damage when revealed) and Exposed Weakness (more damage against conditions).

Shadow Arts is about group support. You’ve got traits like Merciful Ambush (stealth ally on revive), Shadow Protector (grant Regen to stealthed allies), and Leeching Venoms (grant lifesteal to allies). It was even more thematic before when you traited to grant Venoms to allies, but it still retains that theme afterwards.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Deadly Arts is about dealing more damage or opening up enemies to more damage under various circumstances. That’s why you have traits like Revealed Training (more damage when revealed) and Exposed Weakness (more damage against conditions).

Shadow Arts is about group support. You’ve got traits like Merciful Ambush (stealth ally on revive), Shadow Protector (grant Regen to stealthed allies), and Leeching Venoms (grant lifesteal to allies). It was even more thematic before when you traited to grant Venoms to allies, but it still retains that theme afterwards.

Yes, this is a perfect explanation. Thank you

From my perspective, Deadly Arts associates more with poisoning/venoms, since it has quite a lot of traits in that direction. Shadow Arts is about stealth and everything that comes with it. Being revealed is also a part of stealth play. You get revealed, you get a power buff for the time, and then vanish in stealth again.

I also have thought about this change for a very long time, these 2 traits just ask to be swapped. And it can also make an interesting variety for a condi build. Either go for P+D with poison on immobilization, or go with Leeching Venoms build. I can already see a fun build to play with, D+X with DA: Dagger Training + Leeching Venoms + Potent Poison. It’s really not nice to take a whole specialization line just to get that one trait that doesn’t even belong there.

Both of you are correct on what the traitlines represent. It’s not so simple as to be just one thing for each. The traits could go either way, just depends on your perspective, so you aren’t gonna get agreement on where things should be.

At best, you can say that the traitlines should be more focused, but you still would have to agree on what that focus IS….

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Swap-Revealed-Training-with-Leeching-Venoms/first

I asked for this before. The end result though was me finally just giving up my Venom build I’ve used for ages since nothing was done to make it feel really complete to me. To my playstyle of minimal to no stealth the venom changes became more of a nerf than a buff without this trait swap.

I don’t think Anet takes personal requests

Ghotistyx.6942:

I don’t think Anet takes personal requests

Maybe if it was an MLG Twitch streamer and/or ESL Pro League player asking it’d be possible but idk if there are any left. ;o I do what I can as a lil’ guy.

All we can do is hope that some developer will look into this thread and decides to take it into consideration. I’d really wish to see this swap happen.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Shadow Arts is about group support. You’ve got traits like Merciful Ambush (stealth ally on revive), Shadow Protector (grant Regen to stealthed allies), and Leeching Venoms (grant lifesteal to allies). It was even more thematic before when you traited to grant Venoms to allies, but it still retains that theme afterwards.

Take Venomshare out and Trickery has as many group buffs as Shadow Arts. Venomshare belongs in DA as does Revealed Training in Shadow Arts. I also think Quick Pockets and Improvisation should be swapped.

Shadow Arts improves mobility, stealth, survival. Venoms make it useful to take for damage reasons in a non-traditional build.

Like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAqYlsMhSnYRTwpJw/ELDF2c+7/dA9yBBh+DXAYDkBA

The only valid reason I see not to swap is to limit the potency of venom thief.

you could pretty much have a venom DD/DA/TR build with no inconvenient on it….

Wargameur.6950:

The only valid reason I see not to swap is to limit the potency of venom thief.

Not really an issue because Panic Strike is a solid trait and having to choose between it and Leaching Venoms isn’t easy.

Straegen.2938:

Wargameur.6950:

The only valid reason I see not to swap is to limit the potency of venom thief.

Not really an issue because Panic Strike is a solid trait and having to choose between it and Leaching Venoms isn’t easy.

D/D condition might prefer the leeching as there not a lot of Immobs from that build to take advanttage of the extra poison.

s/x hybrid in Carrion, I can see either helping that build were Leeching moved. Hybrid might prefer the extra damage and heals from the venom strikes .

The venom trait is one of the only reasons I’d consider taking shadow arts in the first place, so I can see why they’d leave it where it is.

That said, I don’t use either trait myself, so I don’t have a massive issue with them being swapped. I’d just be surprised if they did it since to me that would force using da/trick/DD for more builds than already do.

babazhook.6805:

D/D condition might prefer the leeching as there not a lot of Immobs from that build to take advanttage of the extra poison.

The 2.5s Auto Immob and 2 stacks of Poison every 20s when target is below 50% is strong. The leaching part of Leaching Venoms is pretty weak. The extra stacks every minute is strong but not a clear winner in my book.

Straegen.2938:

babazhook.6805:

Not really an issue because Panic Strike is a solid trait and having to choose between it and Leaching Venoms isn’t easy.

The 2.5s Auto Immob and 2 stacks of Poison every 20s when target is below 50% is strong. The leaching part of Leaching Venoms is pretty weak. The extra stacks every minute is strong but not a clear winner in my book.

You might not know this (judging from the wording of your post, apologies if I’m wrong) but panic strike makes every source of immob apply 2 stacks of poison. It’s absurdly strong with P/D 2, impairing daggers and the needle trap on heal.

Just for example, an impairing daggers through a poison field will apply 8 stacks of poison when traited with potent poison and panic strike, steal applies 3 more stacks, and needle trap will apply 5 stacks for 16 stacks and a good duration immobilise. Combined with torment on interrupt, absorption and draining sigils and choking gas it’s much stronger than venoms for the number of utility slots used, and has no cooldown issues as you still have P/D and close to full ini after use.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

You might not know this (judging from the wording of your post, apologies if I’m wrong) but panic strike makes every source of immob apply 2 stacks of poison. It’s absurdly strong with P/D 2, impairing daggers and the needle trap on heal.

True but that isn’t the point we are talking about. The discussion point is if D/D would take Panic Strike over Leaching Venoms. My point is even without access to an easy immob from a weapon attack, Panic Strike is still a strong choice since it has a strong built in Immob every 20s that applies upwards of 2 stacks of poison on its own.

With a Pistol mainhand, it is as noted even more reliable.

Straegen.2938:

babazhook.6805:

D/D condition might prefer the leeching as there not a lot of Immobs from that build to take advanttage of the extra poison.

The 2.5s Auto Immob and 2 stacks of Poison every 20s when target is below 50% is strong. The leaching part of Leaching Venoms is pretty weak. The extra stacks every minute is strong but not a clear winner in my book.

I am not a special fan of having too many traits on 20 second cooldowns , that said you underestimate the potential of leeching on a d/d build.

As I have stated I used to run shamans with a mix of apothecary in a condition build. It also fit in extra healing out of acro. This had less damage output then the dire TB builds but way more sustain and much more efficient condition cleanse. Trust me on this. I put in assassins reward and traited up Leeching as a test and coupled with SOM the thing was unstoppable with heals of well over 3k just off leeching and one venom loaded, Without the venom the DB on its own healed for 2k when fighting a single target. It also had close to 300 per second ticks of regen running off PR.

The issue was too much damage given up when dropping DA for SA in a in a d/d condition build. Put that in DA and that would be one nasty build. (I could pretty well keep health near at at full as long as I could attack/dodge meaning GI just wiped out applied confusion). Traited with enough healing and leeching with spider venom could get a nice fat heal every 24 . Added to that the rest of the traits in SA did little for the build.

That said while the damage portion of leeching not overly impressive in a pure condition build (it would add something like 2k extra damage) that damage is more then you would get in such a build if you traited MUG as example meaning if you took dagger mastery you really not giving up a lot and in fact are gaining the same or more damage then mug with a much higher heal then mug on the same cooldown which in effect is a two traits for one in that slot. This opposed to taking an immob every 20 seconds.

Were there such a change, leeching IMHO would win out.

In such build I would take at least two venoms (skale and spider perhaps). While something like impairing would not have room, impairing IS a projectile type which is easier to dodge or block then is a venom application coming off weapon sets. It COULD also mean less a need for DrD which overall is more of a defensive nature for condition builds. (Ie go DR , Acro , Trickery)

Skelk might also become a possibilty for the heal (I would never take skelk without leeching) and this would boost venom share significantly as well as it would put potent poison, leeching with heals, damage and lower cooldown for venoms all in one line.

Straegen.2938:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

You might not know this (judging from the wording of your post, apologies if I’m wrong) but panic strike makes every source of immob apply 2 stacks of poison. It’s absurdly strong with P/D 2, impairing daggers and the needle trap on heal.

True but that isn’t the point we are talking about. The discussion point is if D/D would take Panic Strike over Leaching Venoms. My point is even without access to an easy immob from a weapon attack, Panic Strike is still a strong choice since it has a strong built in Immob every 20s that applies upwards of 2 stacks of poison on its own.

With a Pistol mainhand, it is as noted even more reliable.

Ah, I missed the part about D/D. My bad. I’m still thinking about it from a WvW perspective, which is why I went straight to P/D thinking as it’s a much more reliable set there.

babazhook.6805:

I am not a special fan of having too many traits on 20 second cooldowns , that said you underestimate the potential of leeching on a d/d build.

I hear what you are saying particularly with D/D. However most condi thief builds revolve around the steal. While LV is a solid choice, Panic Strike works very well with the current meta as both a poison stack and immob on steal. This is particularly powerful when Choking Gas is factored in.

D/D is a bit of an odd duck in that it can stay in an evasion frame allowing it stay up close and personal but staying on top of a target isn’t always easy which is something Panic Strike does help with.

Not saying LV wouldn’t be a solid pick if they moved it but noting that Panic is also a solid choice in any condi build as well. If anything having that choice in DA makes for more variations.

I know this is looking at it kind of sideways but the real issue is that Shadow Arts modifies both Deception and Venom. I think they just made a mistake when creating the lines. I think it should be:

Venom → Deadly Arts
Signets → Critical Strikes
Deception →Shadow Arts
Acrobatics → Traps
Trickery → Tricks

Ill try to revive this one:

I recently build a Support thief on condi-heal Settler’s Armour
(pls dont judge, i just really wanted to).
Of Course venom traits are really helpful, give a nice amount of heal and the shared venom and other stuff is great for supporting –
should you include Leeching Venoms.

If you dont, almost all the heal value gets lost.
Even worse, taking Leeching Venoms basically forces you to let go of your Venom skills by making it necessarily to skill into invisibility.

Not using Venoms strongly cripples your effectiveness at dealing damage and especially supporting,
using all basically makes a whole specification line useless and
keeps you from stacking any stealth.

Im working around it atm, by using stealth- heal and refuge, but thats not really a pretty solution, especially considering the neat amount of Group heal you get from the Venom heal skill.
(Removing conditions is also basically impossible with venom alone, but that might be another Problem…)

My idea would be to make (some) Venoms give a little stealth (not as much as dedicated invis skills, obviously),
or take the Leeching Venom out of the Shadow Arts line,
since it Forces you to take other skills than those it buffs.