Guild Wars 2

I am here reading alot of rage over the “instakills” on the BS build. Well, as a thief, let me explain it to you, what it consists of:

a 6 skill rotation in less than 3 seconds for us and a slap in the face (no offence intended) to distracted “im a wannabe defending guardian with save yourselfs (or others)”.

Everyone is complaining about the 8/9k dmg backstab has. It isn’t that much. I’ve played enough tournaments to know that the BS build is a good 1v1 that is based on a 45 second CD (as in, 45 seconds in between doing decent dmg and getting the proverbial behind kicked) but it isn’t anything compared to a player that knows how to play.

I’ve met in the battlefield mesmers, spamming 2 warriors (yes, warriors.), condition damage thiefs, well necros, guardians, KB engeneers that killed me with ease. Know how to play your class and the BS thiefs won’t be much of a threat.

But while we’re on the rage train: mesmers are impossible to spot once they start multiplying, warriors spam 2 with the greatsword, engeneers have too many knockdowns and slows, D/D elementalists are impossible to kill to any melee class, necros lich form is a pain on 1v1 (not to mention the second health bar on shroud).

see what i did there? i ranted on other classes. Every class has its strong point. Ours is the periodical burst (45S CD) on that specific build. Take that away and we’re basically easy targets that do no dmg what-so-ever that die quickly. (imo, even tough/vit builded thiefs are an easy grind compared to other classes)

Your the only one that has made sense out of the entire forum cries.

Thief has already gotten the nerf bat on our signet of power which has decreased that backstab damage by a lot but forces us to reconsider and change our tactics on how we want to play D/D.

Also, ive read a lot of people complaining that steal + CnD combo and want to change steal to a non instant skill? Well then change ALL our shadow step skills because they are ALL instant and can be used in the combo. Just steal frees up a utility slot for something else.

OP is right. Everybody complaining needs to seriously step up their game and learn how to counter like the rest of us.

Cronicle.5691:

[cut] Just steal frees up a utility slot for something else. [cut]

It also does 5k-6k dmg.

IMO they should remove mug damage, and replace it with something more interesting, a buff perhaps, or even quickness lol.

or a boon that gives you a “50% chance to not leave shadows while attacking” … 5s duration.

Mug is fine. On an 80 in exotics or PvP gear it maxes out at around 4k crit. These 5-6k numbers are from WvW, and gone are the days of getting a 9k Mug crit with 150% dmg from ASig.

Personally I would prefer to have a blowout on steal instead of damage, this would kill the current mug/cnd/backstab combo as a blowout will place them out of melee range, but it would still be a useful utility as a set up for group play (Shadowstep behind the target and then steal/bo them back into your team for example). For those that are unfamiliar with blowout, it is the one that knocks the target back, Guardian’s Banish (Hammer), Engineers Big Ol’Bomb, Elementalists updraft.

Elthurien.8356:

Mug is fine. On an 80 in exotics or PvP gear it maxes out at around 4k crit. These 5-6k numbers are from WvW, and gone are the days of getting a 9k Mug crit with 150% dmg from ASig.[cut]

5860 dmg done yesterday in sPvP on a ranger… can’t provide screenshot, sorry.

If your speccing into mug your speccing yourself in to a burst build and that goes without saying. The thing i dont get about people complaining i about Thiefs d/d build is its high burst capability. You take that away and whats left of D/D thats viable as an assassin? We are already squishy and if we get outplayed in mind games we dont have much to keep ourselves up in a “fair” fight. So let those who choose to spend all their resources in Damage have that burst capability and quickly eliminate the one they targeted. I find it extremely situational when it comes to CnD + steal + backstab combo as my success rate in killing the target relies on reading the opponent and to know when is best to use it. Same way i get killed is when the opponent reads me like an open book which is when they can see me pop basilisk venom.

Hundred blade warriors are just as scary as a D/D burst build but im not gonna jump to the forums the second i get owned in a fight like that. Also please start realizing that in WvW the damage output of a thief is a LOT higher than in structured pvp due to most people not even having equal gear.

Thieves are deadly in 1v1 fights when they fight on their terms. But then again, this game isn’t all about 1v1 fights but more about team coordination/teamwork and much more. All builds has a weakness. Its just a question of playing it right.

[quote=659474;Draven.9521:

But while we’re on the rage train: mesmers are impossible to spot once they start multiplying, warriors spam 2 with the greatsword, engeneers have too many knockdowns and slows, D/D elementalists are impossible to kill to any melee class, necros lich form is a pain on 1v1 (not to mention the second health bar on shroud).

[/quote]

1) sure, when build that direction mesmers are impossible to locate… but, unless the the mesmer is facing the thief and they have a healthy gap between them, the thief will kill the mesmer before he can start (i’m talking about equally skilled players).

2) Warriors bursts are waaaaay easier to avoid then thieves.

3)Engs KD is what you would expect of a point holder… by the he pay the price of that KD by sacrificing his damage.

4) D/D are impossible to kill? If you can’t kill him with a 9k burst folowed by the 5k of steal… reroll.

5)Necros lich form is an elite skill with long cd, that leaves you without your utilities and heal, if the guy stay in melee range most hits will miss and the more important point : many ways to counter it (moa, corrupt boon comes to mind, but many others do the trick)

just move the Mug Trait somewhere else, so you cannot take it as 25/30/0/0/15 thief, which is mostly used by a glass build.

Vilar.2680:

1) sure, when build that direction mesmers are impossible to locate… but, unless the the mesmer is facing the thief and they have a healthy gap between them, the thief will kill the mesmer before he can start (i’m talking about equally skilled players).

2) Warriors bursts are waaaaay easier to avoid then thieves.

3)Engs KD is what you would expect of a point holder… by the he pay the price of that KD by sacrificing his damage.

4) D/D are impossible to kill? If you can’t kill him with a 9k burst folowed by the 5k of steal… reroll.

5)Necros lich form is an elite skill with long cd, that leaves you without your utilities and heal, if the guy stay in melee range most hits will miss and the more important point : many ways to counter it (moa, corrupt boon comes to mind, but many others do the trick)

I am talking about these particular classes because i have a friend that has them all 5 in sPvP and he kicks my kitten easily. Warrior burst is easier to avoid than a thiefs burst?

I will walk you through the following strategy, exclusive to thiefs: sneak from the back and attack, get spotted and get killed. A warrior can charge head on.

Im sick and tired of these dilemas, and nerf BS and thief becomes useless (once again, imo, a good pve thief also relies on BS even if he is not specced for it. after all, D/D has cripple and C&D, even though we also have 3).

THIS IS WHAT I LIKE AND I THINK ABOUT A THIEF IN BOTH, PVE AND PVP:

There are 2 kinds of thiefs, 1 is predominant, which is the glass cannon BS thief. This ellusive creature has 1 goal in mind: catch a target alone, sneak and kill. Why do you hate him? because probably 89% of you dont know how to play. Either you’re a glass cannon too and you’re like cheese to us, or you actually have balanced stats and defensive/stun breakers and kill us, since if you survive our burst we’re little kitties to be stomped by a tiranaussoraus rex or you know how to play and kill us. Every non-glass cannon is a reason for me to run away.

and you have the defensive BS thief, which is a very low minority that has fun to appear and disappear in front of 1 target. This is the kind of thief that will reroll if you nerf. they will deliver too much of low hits if anything gets nerfed and will get annoyed not killing anything and having to run away most of the time.

My advice to you all? Learn to play. Dont be glass cannons if you dont want to die from a burst.
Stop crying and blaming everything else, just look for solutions in yourself because every class has more than 1 window open to kill a thief.

(and a side note, i’m NOT a glass cannon, i have balanced my spec for optimal defense and burst. I spent 3 days devoloping my playstyle and i have alot of fun. When i used to be a glass cannon i delivered a 10k blow + finishing hits to down, but i got killed from the rangers barrage. I was that weak of a target. As such, i levelled everything, not i backstab to 4k plus a few hits, still kills fast, 5 seconds or so, but ppl have more than a couple of windows of opportunity to turn the tables)

We are all wrong, your words of wisdom has shown me i am just a horrible player and backstab perma stealth thieves are balanced.

gamefreak.5673:

We are all wrong, your words of wisdom has shown me i am just a horrible player and backstab perma stealth thieves are balanced.

As a thief, i do not understand where is the perma-stealth.

gamefreak.5673:

We are all wrong, your words of wisdom has shown me i am just a horrible player and backstab perma stealth thieves are balanced.

Perma stealth backstab thieves don’t exist, so that would make them pretty balanced.

gamefreak.5673:

We are all wrong, your words of wisdom has shown me i am just a horrible player and backstab perma stealth thieves are balanced.

I am a newbie here, tell me how you can be a perma stealth backstab thief. i just rerolled to a thief.
Whenever, i cast CnD and then a backstab, i cannot get a second backstab straight away and after the first backstab i am out of stealth.
I even tried CnD—>backstab—> CnD (does not let me stealth) and thus couldnt backstab. Since i am a noob here, tell me how you do it? I so wanna own them people with that perma stealth backstab thief build i read about in forum.

BlackDeath.8106:

gamefreak.5673:

We are all wrong, your words of wisdom has shown me i am just a horrible player and backstab perma stealth thieves are balanced.

I am a newbie here, tell me how you can be a perma stealth backstab thief. i just rerolled to a thief.
Whenever, i cast CnD and then a backstab, i cannot get a second backstab straight away and after the first backstab i am out of stealth.
I even tried CnD—>backstab—> CnD (does not let me stealth) and thus couldnt backstab. Since i am a noob here, tell me how you do it? I so wanna own them people with that perma stealth backstab thief build i read about in forum.

you cant. its impossible, unless you exploit. Once you backstab you get a debuff for 3/4 seconds (cant recall) that keeps you from stealthing. Thats why there is no eprma-stealth BS thiefs.

Draven.9521:

BlackDeath.8106:

gamefreak.5673:

We are all wrong, your words of wisdom has shown me i am just a horrible player and backstab perma stealth thieves are balanced.

I am a newbie here, tell me how you can be a perma stealth backstab thief. i just rerolled to a thief.
Whenever, i cast CnD and then a backstab, i cannot get a second backstab straight away and after the first backstab i am out of stealth.
I even tried CnD—>backstab—> CnD (does not let me stealth) and thus couldnt backstab. Since i am a noob here, tell me how you do it? I so wanna own them people with that perma stealth backstab thief build i read about in forum.

you cant. its impossible, unless you exploit. Once you backstab you get a debuff for 3/4 seconds (cant recall) that keeps you from stealthing. Thats why there is no eprma-stealth BS thiefs.

OK i worded that wrong i am just so sick and tired of thieves trying to defend backstab.

Everyone is complaining about the 8/9k dmg backstab has. It isn’t that much.

Actually I’m more concerned about the 15k Backstabs.

gamefreak.5673:

Draven.9521:

BlackDeath.8106:

gamefreak.5673:

We are all wrong, your words of wisdom has shown me i am just a horrible player and backstab perma stealth thieves are balanced.

I am a newbie here, tell me how you can be a perma stealth backstab thief. i just rerolled to a thief.
Whenever, i cast CnD and then a backstab, i cannot get a second backstab straight away and after the first backstab i am out of stealth.
I even tried CnD—>backstab—> CnD (does not let me stealth) and thus couldnt backstab. Since i am a noob here, tell me how you do it? I so wanna own them people with that perma stealth backstab thief build i read about in forum.

you cant. its impossible, unless you exploit. Once you backstab you get a debuff for 3/4 seconds (cant recall) that keeps you from stealthing. Thats why there is no eprma-stealth BS thiefs.

OK i worded that wrong i am just so sick and tired of thieves trying to defend backstab.

because backstab is fun to play with and already on the edge because of glass cannons crying over being killed easily.

EasymodeX.4062:

Everyone is complaining about the 8/9k dmg backstab has. It isn’t that much.

Actually I’m more concerned about the 15k Backstabs.

Actually I’m more concerned about the 20k 100blades aoe.

Daendur.2357:

EasymodeX.4062:

Everyone is complaining about the 8/9k dmg backstab has. It isn’t that much.

Actually I’m more concerned about the 15k Backstabs.

Actually I’m more concerned about the 20k 100blades aoe.

finally someone that agrees with me.

I totally agreed. Someone needs to learn their profession more before QQ. I play as a S/D thief, GS/S/F mesmer and I have no problem beating down the jumping monkey BS, HS spammer.
I give 1 simple solution: stack toughness and learn how to dodge/move at the right time (if you stand still or just wiggle around doing nothing when seeing thief went into stealth mode, you’re dead.) If your toughness is around 2.7k, you will survive the burst and watch the jumping monkey BS, HS down on the ground when you still have 1/4 of your health.

Draven.9521:

Daendur.2357:

EasymodeX.4062:

Everyone is complaining about the 8/9k dmg backstab has. It isn’t that much.

Actually I’m more concerned about the 15k Backstabs.

Actually I’m more concerned about the 20k 100blades aoe.

finally someone that agrees with me.

Except you’re not, because HB is absurdly easy to avoid and is highly telegraphed, whereas backstab is basically instant from 900 range.

If your toughness is around 2.7k, you will survive the burst

Not in WvW.

gamefreak.5673:

We are all wrong, your words of wisdom has shown me i am just a horrible player and backstab perma stealth thieves are balanced.

You know this is Guild Wars 2 forum? You must have got accidentaly here, permastealth is in another game, you know?
If you mean the rendering bug, that´s not the classes fault, so please wait for fix and leave arguments like this for that games´ forum…..

Wasabee.5031:

I totally agreed. Someone needs to learn their profession more before QQ. I play as a S/D thief, GS/S/F mesmer and I have no problem beating down the jumping monkey BS, HS spammer.
I give 1 simple solution: stack toughness and learn how to dodge/move at the right time (if you stand still or just wiggle around doing nothing when seeing thief went into stealth mode, you’re dead.) If your toughness is around 2.7k, you will survive the burst and watch the jumping monkey BS, HS down on the ground when you still have 1/4 of your health.

And yet the nerf is on its way due to “walk back while he vanished before my eyes since i couldnt remember to evade or put a stun breaker/stun locker into my utility skills because im also a glass cannon” players

EasymodeX.4062:

Draven.9521:

Daendur.2357:

EasymodeX.4062:

Everyone is complaining about the 8/9k dmg backstab has. It isn’t that much.

Actually I’m more concerned about the 15k Backstabs.

Actually I’m more concerned about the 20k 100blades aoe.

finally someone that agrees with me.

Except you’re not, because HB is absurdly easy to avoid and is highly telegraphed, whereas backstab is basically instant from 900 range.

If your toughness is around 2.7k, you will survive the burst

Not in WvW.

I am playing in WvW and 2.7k toughness on exotic is different with 2.7k toughness on green. Also, if you rely alone on 2.7k toughness, stand still for BS, HS thief to spam then you need to read what I wrote up. “2.7k toughness and learn how to dodge/move at the right time”

STRanger.5120:

Wasabee.5031:

I am playing in WvW and 2.7k toughness on exotic is different with 2.7k toughness on green.

Playing WvW = playing in group (that why it is called World vs World), so these BS GC Thieves are no danger to you, because they can´t finish you in group….

Sometimes, you will end up running solo at some points to get to the group or got split up, you may encounter a thief. And even if you are in the group, when group vs group, you can see some thieves will jump right into middle of the group, suicide to take down any squishy targets before they are down. That is when 2.7k toughness shine. If you have 25 stack of Bloodlust, you wouldn’t want to wash them all in down state!

STRanger.5120:

gamefreak.5673:

We are all wrong, your words of wisdom has shown me i am just a horrible player and backstab perma stealth thieves are balanced.

You know this is Guild Wars 2 forum? You must have got accidentaly here, permastealth is in another game, you know?
If you mean the rendering bug, that´s not the classes fault, so please wait for fix and leave arguments like this for that games´ forum…..

The stealth comes from Black Powder + Heartseeker (a Smoke Field + Leap Finisher combo). Given that the Heartseekers do not hit anything, it is possible to maintain the stealth for a nice amount of time (albeit, the AOE circle for Black Powder is still visible…but it is quite faint). Now you can build a decent backstab build and have traits to restore initiative to keep this going. If you want more proof ill provide it.

Wasabee.5031:

I am playing in WvW and 2.7k toughness on exotic is different with 2.7k toughness on green. Also, if you rely alone on 2.7k toughness, stand still for BS, HS thief to spam then you need to read what I wrote up. “2.7k toughness and learn how to dodge/move at the right time”

1. Son, I haven’t had anything less than exotic gear in WvW for so long I can’t remember (except for my back slot which is rare from the guild armorer).

2. I apologize but I’m not skilled enough to dodge an ability from range than executes in less than 0.5 seconds that has almost 0 telegraph. I’m getting slow in my old age and I need big visual cues like a player charging at me to remember to dodge in less than a half second.

gamefreak.5673:

Draven.9521:

BlackDeath.8106:

gamefreak.5673:

We are all wrong, your words of wisdom has shown me i am just a horrible player and backstab perma stealth thieves are balanced.

I am a newbie here, tell me how you can be a perma stealth backstab thief. i just rerolled to a thief.
Whenever, i cast CnD and then a backstab, i cannot get a second backstab straight away and after the first backstab i am out of stealth.
I even tried CnD—>backstab—> CnD (does not let me stealth) and thus couldnt backstab. Since i am a noob here, tell me how you do it? I so wanna own them people with that perma stealth backstab thief build i read about in forum.

you cant. its impossible, unless you exploit. Once you backstab you get a debuff for 3/4 seconds (cant recall) that keeps you from stealthing. Thats why there is no eprma-stealth BS thiefs.

OK i worded that wrong i am just so sick and tired of thieves trying to defend backstab.

Ironic considering you are reading the thief forums.

I’d say what you were doing is more akin to attempting to spout political deliberately erroneous rhetoric in the hopes of contributing to the negative air around a problem that doesn’t actually exist. There is no perma-stealth and by claiming there is you bring the validity of your opinion down to the level of someone who uses strawmen in order to provoke a reactionary response.

Of course I know you were just trying to rile people up, that much is obvious.
But it gives the distinct impression that you don’t have a valid reason for finding backstab so indefensible, if you have to resort to such tactics in order to try and put it down, eh?

Alice.8694:

gamefreak.5673:

Draven.9521:

BlackDeath.8106:

gamefreak.5673:

We are all wrong, your words of wisdom has shown me i am just a horrible player and backstab perma stealth thieves are balanced.

I am a newbie here, tell me how you can be a perma stealth backstab thief. i just rerolled to a thief.
Whenever, i cast CnD and then a backstab, i cannot get a second backstab straight away and after the first backstab i am out of stealth.
I even tried CnD—>backstab—> CnD (does not let me stealth) and thus couldnt backstab. Since i am a noob here, tell me how you do it? I so wanna own them people with that perma stealth backstab thief build i read about in forum.

you cant. its impossible, unless you exploit. Once you backstab you get a debuff for 3/4 seconds (cant recall) that keeps you from stealthing. Thats why there is no eprma-stealth BS thiefs.

OK i worded that wrong i am just so sick and tired of thieves trying to defend backstab.

Ironic considering you are reading the thief forums.

I’d say what you were doing is more akin to attempting to spout political deliberately erroneous rhetoric in the hopes of contributing to the negative air around a problem that doesn’t actually exist. There is no perma-stealth and by claiming there is you bring the validity of your opinion down to the level of someone who uses strawmen in order to provoke a reactionary response.

Of course I know you were just trying to rile people up, that much is obvious.
But it gives the distinct impression that you don’t have a valid reason for finding backstab so indefensible, if you have to resort to such tactics in order to try and put it down, eh?

Follow link and enjoy.
http://vimeo.com/52977465

All i can say is i have 2 lvl 80 chars full exo : a thief and a ranger. Thief has more dmg and more survivability and not even by a close margin.

gamefreak.5673:

The stealth comes from Black Powder + Heartseeker (a Smoke Field + Leap Finisher combo). Given that the Heartseekers do not hit anything, it is possible to maintain the stealth for a nice amount of time (albeit, the AOE circle for Black Powder is still visible…but it is quite faint). Now you can build a decent backstab build and have traits to restore initiative to keep this going. If you want more proof ill provide it.

This looks like a bad joke to me. If you want to lose all of Thiefs´ mobility, you can try this, but if someone catches you while performing this exercise (another thief probably?), you´re meat on the stick for him….
Also stealth stacking has been nerfed, so this is not permastealth at all….

At least if you want to actually do something. A Thief not attacking = a Thief that is not dangerous.

gamefreak.5673:

Alice.8694:

gamefreak.5673:

Draven.9521:

BlackDeath.8106:

gamefreak.5673:

We are all wrong, your words of wisdom has shown me i am just a horrible player and backstab perma stealth thieves are balanced.

I am a newbie here, tell me how you can be a perma stealth backstab thief. i just rerolled to a thief.
Whenever, i cast CnD and then a backstab, i cannot get a second backstab straight away and after the first backstab i am out of stealth.
I even tried CnD—>backstab—> CnD (does not let me stealth) and thus couldnt backstab. Since i am a noob here, tell me how you do it? I so wanna own them people with that perma stealth backstab thief build i read about in forum.

you cant. its impossible, unless you exploit. Once you backstab you get a debuff for 3/4 seconds (cant recall) that keeps you from stealthing. Thats why there is no eprma-stealth BS thiefs.

OK i worded that wrong i am just so sick and tired of thieves trying to defend backstab.

Ironic considering you are reading the thief forums.

I’d say what you were doing is more akin to attempting to spout political deliberately erroneous rhetoric in the hopes of contributing to the negative air around a problem that doesn’t actually exist. There is no perma-stealth and by claiming there is you bring the validity of your opinion down to the level of someone who uses strawmen in order to provoke a reactionary response.

Of course I know you were just trying to rile people up, that much is obvious.
But it gives the distinct impression that you don’t have a valid reason for finding backstab so indefensible, if you have to resort to such tactics in order to try and put it down, eh?

Follow link and enjoy.
http://vimeo.com/52977465

Nice try to bait and switch…

It’s not even permanent, which I find hilarious… Not to mention it’s applications are minimal at best,Try harder next time.

Alice.8694:

gamefreak.5673:

Alice.8694:

gamefreak.5673:

Draven.9521:

BlackDeath.8106:

gamefreak.5673:

We are all wrong, your words of wisdom has shown me i am just a horrible player and backstab perma stealth thieves are balanced.

I am a newbie here, tell me how you can be a perma stealth backstab thief. i just rerolled to a thief.
Whenever, i cast CnD and then a backstab, i cannot get a second backstab straight away and after the first backstab i am out of stealth.
I even tried CnD—>backstab—> CnD (does not let me stealth) and thus couldnt backstab. Since i am a noob here, tell me how you do it? I so wanna own them people with that perma stealth backstab thief build i read about in forum.

you cant. its impossible, unless you exploit. Once you backstab you get a debuff for 3/4 seconds (cant recall) that keeps you from stealthing. Thats why there is no eprma-stealth BS thiefs.

OK i worded that wrong i am just so sick and tired of thieves trying to defend backstab.

Ironic considering you are reading the thief forums.

I’d say what you were doing is more akin to attempting to spout political deliberately erroneous rhetoric in the hopes of contributing to the negative air around a problem that doesn’t actually exist. There is no perma-stealth and by claiming there is you bring the validity of your opinion down to the level of someone who uses strawmen in order to provoke a reactionary response.

Of course I know you were just trying to rile people up, that much is obvious.
But it gives the distinct impression that you don’t have a valid reason for finding backstab so indefensible, if you have to resort to such tactics in order to try and put it down, eh?

Follow link and enjoy.
http://vimeo.com/52977465

Nice try to bait and switch…

It’s not even permanent, which I find hilarious… Not to mention it’s applications are minimal at best,Try harder next time.

No matter what i say about backstab and why I believe it should be toned down I will wrong.

Now you are correct it was not permanent and as for the build you can not devote your entire trait setup to just backstab damage but you will still do alot of damage. As to you saying applications are minimal at best I will disagree. It does serve a purpose in wvwvw though until they remove the stealth cap. It can delay the capture of camps and even keeps to give other factions time to defend or take it back however you look at it. Delaying the capture of camps gives time for your faction to retake the camp or if you are the attack faction more time for more players to show up to take it.

gamefreak.5673:

Alice.8694:

gamefreak.5673:

Alice.8694:

gamefreak.5673:

Draven.9521:

BlackDeath.8106:

gamefreak.5673:

We are all wrong, your words of wisdom has shown me i am just a horrible player and backstab perma stealth thieves are balanced.

I am a newbie here, tell me how you can be a perma stealth backstab thief. i just rerolled to a thief.
Whenever, i cast CnD and then a backstab, i cannot get a second backstab straight away and after the first backstab i am out of stealth.
I even tried CnD—>backstab—> CnD (does not let me stealth) and thus couldnt backstab. Since i am a noob here, tell me how you do it? I so wanna own them people with that perma stealth backstab thief build i read about in forum.

you cant. its impossible, unless you exploit. Once you backstab you get a debuff for 3/4 seconds (cant recall) that keeps you from stealthing. Thats why there is no eprma-stealth BS thiefs.

OK i worded that wrong i am just so sick and tired of thieves trying to defend backstab.

Ironic considering you are reading the thief forums.

I’d say what you were doing is more akin to attempting to spout political deliberately erroneous rhetoric in the hopes of contributing to the negative air around a problem that doesn’t actually exist. There is no perma-stealth and by claiming there is you bring the validity of your opinion down to the level of someone who uses strawmen in order to provoke a reactionary response.

Of course I know you were just trying to rile people up, that much is obvious.
But it gives the distinct impression that you don’t have a valid reason for finding backstab so indefensible, if you have to resort to such tactics in order to try and put it down, eh?

Follow link and enjoy.
http://vimeo.com/52977465

Nice try to bait and switch…

It’s not even permanent, which I find hilarious… Not to mention it’s applications are minimal at best,Try harder next time.

No matter what i say about backstab and why I believe it should be toned down I will wrong.

Now you are correct it was not permanent and as for the build you can not devote your entire trait setup to just backstab damage but you will still do alot of damage. As to you saying applications are minimal at best I will disagree. It does serve a purpose in wvwvw though until they remove the stealth cap. It can delay the capture of camps and even keeps to give other factions time to defend or take it back however you look at it. Delaying the capture of camps gives time for your faction to retake the camp or if you are the attack faction more time for more players to show up to take it.

Like I said, it’s usefulness is very limited in scope. It’s also not stealthy, it’s almost impossible to not hear the black powder shot. It also leaves a fairly obvious cloud effect with aoe circle.
As we see in this video, the effectiveness of these idiots trying to find a stealthed thief with random ranged shots. While amusing, any class with an aoe knockdown can easily end this little charade.
And while you might erroneously call this permanent stealth, that name is already linked with another phenomena caused by culling issues in wvwvw. So to use that name is to deliberately exploit the ambiguity between what you mean and what people will assume you mean.

So if you really meant to refer to this, just be clear with what you say… It’s simply re-stacking stealth with combo fields.

There are no actual combat applications for this, because if you knew anything about a thief you’d know you don’t jump into combat with 0 int.

And as a side note, you aren’t even talking about backstab here… You are talking about stealth. To claim that you cannot say anything about backstab that won’t be ignored shows very little faith in the evidence of your arguments against the skill.

People using backstab to pull of insane damage tend to be quite skilled, capable of pulling off a string of actions in order to attain the right buffs and positioning to exploit their abilities and traits for maximum damage.
A nerf to backstab will not effect these people, they’ll keep finding ways to align skills for maximum pay off and hand you your kitten on a plate.
Nerfing backstab will only effect the n00bs who cannot perform this well and only ever see a 3/4k backstab.
Since you won’t actually stop the people who design cookie cutter burst moments unless you remove ALL the burst potential entirely. And the only people you are gonna harm in the long run is novices and people who cannot exploit the thief’s strengths to their advantage.

All you seem to gain from this is making an already easy class to deal with when played by a novice, even more of a free kill.

Ahh, I see what you’re doing wrong. Warriors spamming 2.

Considering it makes you stationary, and is only usable every 6 seconds, and only hits those that the warrior is directly on top of, it must mean your not pressing your movement keys.

Havae you tried just walking away when he presses the button?

And that perma stealth? the guy who did the video even says he will never lose 1v1.

gamefreak.5673:

OK i worded that wrong i am just so sick and tired of thieves trying to defend backstab.

No, I think you worded it precisely as you wanted to put it.

gamefreak.5673:

… Given that the Heartseekers do not hit anything, it is possible to maintain the stealth for a nice amount of time

Emphasize do not hit anything
You reason that thiefs is OP because they might waste their initiative on Black Powder and multiple Heartseekers without hitting anything and while being grounded to the melee range smoke aoe?

gamefreak.5673:

Follow link and enjoy
http://vimeo.com/52977465

Thief jumping around for 5 minutes, not doing anything before getting killed. Notice how a dozen players just learned how to defeat this ‘trick’ and the next thief trying this with them will get downed in less then 10 seconds.

Perhaps they can change the rules surrounding capture. Stealth is essential to the thief and can not be removed without requiring a complete change of the class.

Draven.9521:

Vilar.2680:

1) sure, when build that direction mesmers are impossible to locate… but, unless the the mesmer is facing the thief and they have a healthy gap between them, the thief will kill the mesmer before he can start (i’m talking about equally skilled players).

2) Warriors bursts are waaaaay easier to avoid then thieves.

3)Engs KD is what you would expect of a point holder… by the he pay the price of that KD by sacrificing his damage.

4) D/D are impossible to kill? If you can’t kill him with a 9k burst folowed by the 5k of steal… reroll.

5)Necros lich form is an elite skill with long cd, that leaves you without your utilities and heal, if the guy stay in melee range most hits will miss and the more important point : many ways to counter it (moa, corrupt boon comes to mind, but many others do the trick)

I am talking about these particular classes because i have a friend that has them all 5 in sPvP and he kicks my kitten easily. Warrior burst is easier to avoid than a thiefs burst?

I will walk you through the following strategy, exclusive to thiefs: sneak from the back and attack, get spotted and get killed. A warrior can charge head on.

Im sick and tired of these dilemas, and nerf BS and thief becomes useless (once again, imo, a good pve thief also relies on BS even if he is not specced for it. after all, D/D has cripple and C&D, even though we also have 3).

THIS IS WHAT I LIKE AND I THINK ABOUT A THIEF IN BOTH, PVE AND PVP:

There are 2 kinds of thiefs, 1 is predominant, which is the glass cannon BS thief. This ellusive creature has 1 goal in mind: catch a target alone, sneak and kill. Why do you hate him? because probably 89% of you dont know how to play. Either you’re a glass cannon too and you’re like cheese to us, or you actually have balanced stats and defensive/stun breakers and kill us, since if you survive our burst we’re little kitties to be stomped by a tiranaussoraus rex or you know how to play and kill us. Every non-glass cannon is a reason for me to run away.

and you have the defensive BS thief, which is a very low minority that has fun to appear and disappear in front of 1 target. This is the kind of thief that will reroll if you nerf. they will deliver too much of low hits if anything gets nerfed and will get annoyed not killing anything and having to run away most of the time.

My advice to you all? Learn to play. Dont be glass cannons if you dont want to die from a burst.
Stop crying and blaming everything else, just look for solutions in yourself because every class has more than 1 window open to kill a thief.

(and a side note, i’m NOT a glass cannon, i have balanced my spec for optimal defense and burst. I spent 3 days devoloping my playstyle and i have alot of fun. When i used to be a glass cannon i delivered a 10k blow + finishing hits to down, but i got killed from the rangers barrage. I was that weak of a target. As such, i levelled everything, not i backstab to 4k plus a few hits, still kills fast, 5 seconds or so, but ppl have more than a couple of windows of opportunity to turn the tables)

I don’t run a burst build, i’m a necro i just CAN’T burst, and sure , most of the time i break thieves combo, becouse as in any game most players especially on hot join don’t you use the class to its full potential.

That being said I BELEIVED THAT THE NERFS WHERE NOT NEEDED, i said this and a friend of mine convinced me to create a thief, THEN i got it, as you said yourself if you go for a round build you still can beat anyone.

I could go for details but i’m a necro, i’m going to my on forum, just listen dude, i’m not saying you can’t outskill a thief player, just the obvious if: both players are equally skilled the thief always win, and that is the deffinition of OP.

PS: PVE is no matter any class in any build can do fine on PVE. If it pleases you i’d love if Anet let thief just like they are on PVE and fix it on pvp and wvw.

one way to permastealth is use cloack and dagger than w8 stealth wear off,immediately recast cloak and dagger (revelation is applied only if u attack something IN stealth);u can permastealth yes but damage is very poor and have little advanteges,problem is burst of some builds,not the class.

Perma stealthing is possible, but useless outside of holding a point in wvw. Just use blackpowder and heartseeker through it with the trait that returns initiative each time you stealth. Problem? Your initiative is going into keeping stealth up rather than fighting.

Daendur.2357:

Elthurien.8356:

Mug is fine. On an 80 in exotics or PvP gear it maxes out at around 4k crit. These 5-6k numbers are from WvW, and gone are the days of getting a 9k Mug crit with 150% dmg from ASig.[cut]

5860 dmg done yesterday in sPvP on a ranger… can’t provide screenshot, sorry.

The only way that is possible in sPvP is if you were already under 50% health, you had frenzy up or you were already affected by vulnerability.

Well put OP. More thieves on the forum should be as well versed as you. If we can articulate our points better, perhaps we may save our class and fight against the misrepresentation of our mechanics.

Hearing about the incoming nerfs, I have been looking for builds, and the only build I haven’t seen being complained about has been the D/D bleed build. I tried it. Its very effective and I can stack on about 17-20 bleeds in about 3 seconds, enough to let them bleed to death considering most people don’t run condition removal, but guess what:

Its the most boring build I have ever played, and requires no skill at all.

The main thing people complain about a BS thief is what? ZOMG INSTAGIB PERMASTEALTH ONLY PRESSING 3 BUTTONS NOOB!

1. If they are perma-stealthing (It does exist), they aren’t attacking you. The permastealth argument is only applicable to WvWvW scenarios when talking about capping points, not fighting thieves.

2. Its not an “instagib” or “1 shot”. The thief just did a lot of work to down you. Just because you didn’t see it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Yes, the culling issue has been addressed by the Devs as a bug. It will not be an excuse for much longer. Listening to a call to nerf a skill when the root of the complaint is stemming from a culling/non-developmental issue is bad development. If any Devs are reading this, I implore you to fix the culling issue first and then determine whether or not the BS damage needs to be toned down. To do otherwise is going to make the community think that if they cry enough about something you will pander to them, and more importantly, that you don’t intend to change the culling issue at all, and hope that by reducing the viability of a class that happens to benefit the most from a bug, you can distract your consumer base from your inability to fix the bug itself.

3. The typical glass cannon thief build presses 9 buttons in very quick succession (3-5) secs, not to mention movement keys, and the added challenge of flanking/positioning (a challenge that no other class has, to my knowledge. If I am misstating any of this, please correct me.) These 9 keys only include one repetition on the second HS. The setup and routine is very predictable and well known, as well as being very easy to counter, the culling issue being the exception.

The routine, for anyone that doesn’t play thief, but for some reason likes to go on our forums and complain about them is:

(1) Basilisk Venom > (2) Assassin’s Signet > (3) Walk up to you and Cloak and Dagger > (4) Move around behind you and Steal (Mug) > (5) Backstab (Not instant, it has a casting time) > (6) Heart Seeker (The only skill that will be repeated, with the possible exception of a second Cloak and Dagger) > (7) Heart Seeker #2 > (8) Any stealth the Thief has left, usually Shadow Refuge or another Cloak and Dagger (The second C&D will leave them with no initiative.) > (9) “F” to finish him/her.

He must do this all with not invulnerability or stability, under 5 seconds, making sure he hits the BS from behind, without getting CC’ed of any kind, while taking no more than 14K damage with no more toughness or vitality, other than base.

My question is this: How is the above build “no skill”, when compared to a D/D bleed build that can easily output the same damage (minimum 18-20K with no condition remove) by only pressing the following keys:

(1) Steal (to close the gap) > (2) Caltrops > (3) Death Blossom > (4) Death Blossom > (5) Death Blossom > (6) Stealth > (7) “F” to finish him/her?

Rashagal.5867:

(1) Basilisk Venom > (2) Assassin’s Signet > (3) Walk up to you and Cloak and Dagger > (4) Move around behind you and Steal (Mug) > (5) Backstab (Not instant, it has a casting time) > (6) Heart Seeker (The only skill that will be repeated, with the possible exception of a second Cloak and Dagger) > (7) Heart Seeker #2 > (8) Any stealth the Thief has left, usually Shadow Refuge or another Cloak and Dagger (The second C&D will leave them with no initiative.) > (9) “F” to finish him/her.

He must do this all with not invulnerability or stability, under 5 seconds, making sure he hits the BS from behind, without getting CC’ed of any kind, while taking no more than 14K damage with no more toughness or vitality, other than base.

My question is this: How is the above build “no skill”, when compared to a D/D bleed build that can easily output the same damage (minimum 18-20K with no condition remove) by only pressing the following keys:

(1) Steal (to close the gap) > (2) Caltrops > (3) Death Blossom > (4) Death Blossom > (5) Death Blossom > (6) Stealth > (7) “F” to finish him/her?

The reason why hardly anyone complains about the DB build is because it deals it’s damage over more than 10 seconds and it has huge visual clues.

If the player times it correctly all three hits of the BS combo can land in less than a second, and the only visual clue for this is to spot the animation difference between an auto attack and C&D from up to a range of 900. Also “hit from behind” means anywhere in an arc of 180° behind the target.
Many players don’t mind the damage the BS combo dishes out but they want the ability to avoid the combo by reflex, not telepathy.

DesertRose.2031:

The reason why hardly anyone complains about the DB build is because it deals it’s damage over more than 10 seconds and it has huge visual clues.

If the player times it correctly all three hits of the BS combo can land in less than a second, and the only visual clue for this is to spot the animation difference between an auto attack and C&D from up to a range of 900. Also “hit from behind” means anywhere in an arc of 180° behind the target.
Many players don’t mind the damage the BS combo dishes out but they want the ability to avoid the combo by reflex, not telepathy.

This is a valid point, and I believe that fixing the culling issue would help fix this problem by ensuring that the thief can’t get the Heart-seekers off while still “in stealth”. I’m not saying it doesn’t need to be addressed, I’m saying that I believe the priority the Devs need to be focusing on is the bug that thieves benefit from being removed so we can see how people react to the BS routine as it was designed to operate, before prematurely changing things that make it seem like the thief is balanced, only to give them an effective nerf when they fix the bug they said they would fix before adjusting the balance.

I personally think changing the talent tree to move Mug up to a 30 point talent in the power/condition duration tree would fix everything. The build would still remain viable, but by making this particular glass cannon build trait 30/30/0/0/10, instead of 25/30/0/0/15, the thief will lose that extra 3 initiative trait that allows him to cloak and dagger the second time in order to finish off the target, leaving them able to down anything, but utterly useless and an easy target when it comes to stomping the enemy. It would mean that the only way to ensure a reliable %100 hp target – death routine would require the thief to use their shadow refuge, negating a large portion of their escape ability and allowing any ally of the downed player to easily take the thief out before he can get away. This way, he may still seem OP to the player getting downed, but he just traded his life for that kill, making it anything but OP.

The theoretical meta behind this I would assume (again, correct me if I’m wrong) would logically become that this build is an assassin build (quite apt considering the signet they use to complete this) but an assassin in a truer sense of the word: since they won’t be able to reliably get away anymore, they will have to increase their meta game and target only high value targets. No longer would they waste their time and CD’s on anyone who is an easy target, because doing so would mean their death as well, unless they found someone alone. This would promote an anti-carry role instead of a carry role in their team, and restrict their usage and popularity in PVP.

Also, Thank you for responding to me in a civil and intelligent manner. It is much appreciated.

Rashgal, for a thief player you’re obviously complicating BS combo a lot.
“Real” combo: precast CnD→steal→BS→profit, get Air procs, apply HS if needed. And yeah no need to argue, it took me 5min to get the hang of that. Takes around 1-1.5 secs to setup when noticing the enemy and hits around 8-15k, when using haste/assassins signet hits harder and faster.

This is coming from someone who facerolled in spvp with a thief yday while having no previous experience with the class. I do have experience with a lot of other classes and I consider myself an average player. Top scores most of the games, hit several 300 and + scores. One of those games, when there were 4 thieves in our team one of the other thieves hit 440 points. The other team didn’t get outplayed, there were good builds and honestly good players out there. But our damage/mobility destroyed their glass/bunkers. Was a bit weird being on the other side of the helpless.

Prior to heading ingame I practiced around 5min on golems and it took me around 30min-1h to get the hang of the gameplay. Rolled with sbow/d+d, sbow as opener/defensive set and BS only for finishing or instagibbing someone in 1v1.

Ofc I’ve noticed some traits from some discussions in what to consider, but I didn’t use any specific build. I put something together quickly myself:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAV4YlUmiOXcy9E9JFx2jdqTeyfwo+HArWBaC;TsAg0Cno4ywlgLbNOukctoYQxWEA

My thoughts:

• sbow+dagger 4 is stupidly OP in point fights or when people are reviving. “Bunkers” melt so easily from bow poison and the bounce/cluster is insanely good against mesmers/other thieves.
• I could escape basically everything, even 1v4-5 situations, I did die a couple of times, but that was more to the reason of being outplayed because I’m not so familiar with the class.
• Stealthstomp denies most of the other classes downed abilites.
• I had enough damage/utility on my weaponsets that I sometimes forgot to use my other utilities or elite (pretty much only popped the iwin thieves button when fighting 1v2, and ofc shadowstep to get away, use of shadow refuge aggressively alternatively was pretty interesting)

What to improve regarding balance:

• Make steal break CnD precast or give steal a short cast time (backstab damage is actually fine imo, teleport instagib isn’t)
• Sbow needs a bit of tweaking, it brings way too much to the table (poison for heal denial, strong spammable AoE, best mobility/escape tools) and at the same time packs quite a punch (1k+ autoattack that bounces). I find the skills actually ok, but something has to be done regarding skill cost/damage for balancing (not by having the cluster detonation ini cost back).
• If they fix the stealth visibility issues and make the debuff apply always, then stealth is fine imo. Just needs proper rendering, though I believe any attack should break stealth.
• Not sure about HS. Ability to pull off around 4 HS after BS combo is a bit strong though. Ridiculous with haste, but pretty useless attack in group fights.
• Move mug to 30 grandmaster traits (4-5k extra damage from 10 points is way too good)

In conclusion:
With a few tweaks I believe it’s possible to still keep thief dangerous and a good profession, but not so over the top it is atm regarding damage/mobility/mitigation by damage evasion.

Inicluding a rant about how HB warriors kill you easily in your first post probably wasn’t the best way to build credibility.

Thank you!!! I am getting beyond annoyed with all manner of bad players coming into our forums and complaining about getting killed by a thief in under 5 sec. Guess what… we die all the time in under 5 seconds and I never see thieves complaining on their forums about it. The fact is, most thieves understand that to get high reward we need high risk. I know the downside to playing a GC thief and accept my beatdowns as part of the job. My guess is that a majority of the players complaining about thief damage are either undergeared, improperly speced, or just plain bad.

I don’t recall Anet saying that complete balance between all specs and all professions was their goal. It is rock, paper, scissors and sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

Rashagal.5867:

I personally think changing the talent tree to move Mug up to a 30 point talent in the power/condition duration tree would fix everything. The build would still remain viable, but by making this particular glass cannon build trait 30/30/0/0/10, instead of 25/30/0/0/15, the thief will lose that extra 3 initiative trait that allows him to cloak and dagger the second time in order to finish off the target, leaving them able to down anything, but utterly useless and an easy target when it comes to stomping the enemy. It would mean that the only way to ensure a reliable %100 hp target – death routine would require the thief to use their shadow refuge, negating a large portion of their escape ability and allowing any ally of the downed player to easily take the thief out before he can get away. This way, he may still seem OP to the player getting downed, but he just traded his life for that kill, making it anything but OP.

Even though making Mug a grandmaster trait may improve the situation the BS build would still be OP if it still can heavily damage to outright kill a non-Bunker virtually instantly.
Also do you believe that “Thieves kill you in a 1vs1 every time but in compensation your team mates can kill them afterwards” is balanced in a 5vs5 game mode where 1vs1 are not unheard of?

Also, as Psybunny said, the high burst damage with next to no visual clue is only the tip of the iceberg what makes BS Thieves so good; with Cloak and Dagger, Disabling Shot, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Shadowstep and possibly another utility skill they have good mobility and survivability, Dancing Dagger, Trick Shot and Cluster Bomb provide good AoE damage in a group fight on top of a point, and Choking Gas is an amazing anti-rezz skills because it not only damages both the downed player and the reviving player but also decreases the healing amount by 33%.

This is basically what I am saying too, on every nerf thief topic. I wish dueling was available cause it would be easy to prove this point by duelling skilled players of all the classes.