Guild Wars 2

I have an experiment I want to try. I want to see if it’s possible to play a Bunker Thief in sPvP. Every other class can Bunker somehow, but I’ve yet to see a Thief do so.

The problem is that our best defensive specs all rely on stealth. A good stealth spec, with regen and condition removal in stealth and frequent stealthing, can be nigh impossible to kill. However, in sPvP, stealth makes you incapable of defending a node. An sPvP bunker needs a non-stealth build.

I’ve come up with a life-leeching build. This means using Signet of Malice for constant, high self-healing. I’ve come up with several

In both of them, I focus on maintaining high hit volume for self-healing from Signet of Malice. I take Sword/Pistol because Pistol Whip gives an evade and a flurry of rapid hits. With this build, Pistol Whip will heal for up to 950 health per target it hits. S/P also gives a spammable stun break (which also removes a condition), a fantastic interrupt, and a blinding field. The autoattack is AoE (which is great, each hit counts for SoM) and applies cripple and weakness.

I take P/P as my secondary weapon. Most people look down on P/P as a poor weapon set, and I partially agree. However, for this type of bunker build it’s pretty powerful. Unload gives P/P the best hit volume of any Thief ranged weapon, and that’s what matters to me. You also get Black Powder to shoot through (for blinding) and a great interrupt. It won’t do much damage, but it gives me a ranged option that’s still defensive with this build.

Now, for the variants.

Venom Variant*

This variant focuses on healing from venom lifesteal. The Leeching Venoms heal is really powerful (325 base, 20% scaling), and I get 13 strikes of venom every 36s with this build. That ends up being something like 130 healing per second with the venoms, which is quite a lot. Additionally, I easily maintain permanant weakness against one target, and also get a 7.5s immobilize every 36s, which is huge. The venoms heal me and debuff my enemy. This build still has good healing from Signet of Malice, because it still has good hit volume.

Caltrops Variant*

This build focuses on maximizing healing from SoM. It has the caltrops utility skill, with caltrops on dodge (and frequent dodging). This allows you to cover a node with caltrops at pretty much all times. This will force enemies to either stay off the node or take constant cripple and bleeding while healing you. This build also gets a small but still sizeable heal from Assassin’s Reward (~70 healing every time you spend a point of initiative). I still take spider venom (100% poison uptime and 50% weakness uptime) and devourer venom (for a 5s immobilize every 36s), but they don’t heal me. This build can also dodge 50% more often than the venom variant. It has better initiative regen, which means more use of high hit-volume skills.

AoE Variant*

This variant aims for maximum godmode in an AoE fight. I swap out P/P for shortbow. This really limits me if I’m guarding a node that doesn’t see any action. If I’m being attacked by a single player who’s staying at range, I have to leave the node to fight them. Leaving the node is bad. However, it makes up for it by being epic in an AoE fight. With this build, shortbow becomes the world’s best AoE defense weapon.

Choking Gas becomes king. Choking gas triggers SoM’s heal, which means that each Choking Gas field will heal you for up to 530 per second (assuming it’s hitting five enemies). You could potentially get over 2k healing per Choking Gas. Additionally, it’s pulsing weakness constantly thanks to 15 points in Deadly Arts, which lowers the damage of everyone you fight. You’re also a great asset to your team by keeping the enemy constantly poisoned and weakened, no matter how much condition removal they have. That’s less damage, less healing, and less dodging.

I also tweak this build for lower trick cooldown (MOAR CALTROPS) and Roll For Initiative (stun-break, kiting tool, 1.5 choking gas worth of initiative). This will give more initiative for more spamming of Choking Gas. And of course, Dagger Storm is godmode as ever.

Conclusion

I’m very interested to try this out (at work right now). I’ve done the math, and it cannot match the EHP other bunkers can pull in small fights. However, our healing scales with the number of enemies we’re fighting. The bigger the fight, the more healing we get. I’m especially interested to try out the AoE variant in hotjoin; permanent poison/weakness/cripple/bleed on the enemy while I never die sounds really, really fun.

Let’s see some of your bunker builds. I’d love to see other variations on this one, or bunker builds that take a different tactic. Also, if you’ve played a Thief Bunker before, let us know how it went!

i used a varation of your venom / caltrops one as a support thief / scout in WvW passed basilisk venom and skale venom to my group before a fight and while wearing tough/vit gear with the swiftness and caltrops traited your pretty much uncatchable. was very good at not getting killed

edit: this would be a WvW bunker build then. Didn’t see that part. Best non stealth bunker is evade tanking with tons of endo & init regen and d/d/d/d DB spam imo.
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I play what I consider a bunker thief. So far I haven’t run into a 1v1 even d/d ele and guards that I have to run from they just take time. Haven’t run into many condition swap necros though.

P/D & DD
10 /0/30 /30/0
Mug, Regen on Stealth, Con remove on Stealth, Healing while Stealthed, 50% fall dmg, Pain response, Hard to catch.
Shadowstep, SR and 3rd is changed between Sig of Shadows, Scorp Wire or Haste depending on the situation. Move speed for roaming, swap to wire when 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 and haste if it’s 1vN (for stomps).

I use p/v/t armor & back and p/v/condmg weapons/rings/accessories/ammy

Ends up with ~21K health and ~2500 armor and tough as nails. Don’t even have to shadowstep out of a glass Theif’s burst if you don’t feel like it and can still win easily. Most time you don’t have a choice with Hard to catch though.

Yeah, stealthing is great. I play an extremely versatile S/D Thief with lots of flexibility, dazing, mobility, and support. I rely on stealth for my defenses as well, and that’s really powerful. It’s too bad that it’s not effective in sPvP.

Edited title and OP to make it clear that I’m talking about sPvP.

This is the evade tank build I use in sPvP.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckzzzz9MolbLMolvLMa9Mxxccsbckq8khf7khG7khf7khG7070z7kuB70z7kIN70z7kG270z

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAqYVlcmCO3cy9E95EB3Dj60m6p4rjtTxVjPA;TsAA2Cuo6y4lwLbQuukBtAZQxkAA

im trying this out in spvp and it seems to be working , pretty much hitting a CnD going into stealth unloading with that first skill outta stealth dodge roll twice then go back into stealth, while in stealth it heals my conditions and heals myself, and with signet of malice and that unload thing it gives me tons of hp back

I run a 10-0-30-30-0 build with S/D – SB; soldiers jewel, and dolyak runes, using signet of malice for heal. I can outright tank half the other team with little problem if i play full on defense, very solid build for bunkering.

Uberlicious.3956:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAqYVlcmCO3cy9E95EB3Dj60m6p4rjtTxVjPA;TsAA2Cuo6y4lwLbQuukBtAZQxkAA

im trying this out in spvp and it seems to be working , pretty much hitting a CnD going into stealth unloading with that first skill outta stealth dodge roll twice then go back into stealth, while in stealth it heals my conditions and heals myself, and with signet of malice and that unload thing it gives me tons of hp back

Look, that’s nice, but read the OP. I’ll emphasize:

Builds that rely on stealth in any way are not okay here.

I’m trying to make a bunker build here. If you’re unfamiliar with the current sPvP meta, a “bunker” is a player with high defenses that sits on a node and defends it. Their job is to be able to soak up attacks from enemy players for as long as possible without giving up the node.

The problem with a stealth build in this situation is that while in stealth, you cannot contest a node. If you’re standing on a node and your enemy is standing on a node, it’s contested (meaning that it doesn’t change possession). However, if you go into stealth, then as far as the game is concerned the enemy is the only person on it. That means they can start capturing the node. It only takes 3 seconds to bring a node down to grey. That means that if you go into stealth for three seconds, you’ve let them neutralize the node and failed as a bunker. In a protracted fight where you’re forced to rely heavily on stealth to heal, it would be very feasible to see someone cap the node from underneath you without you dying or leaving the node.

That’s a great defensive build, but it is not a bunker.

Adaneshade.2409:

I run a 10-0-30-30-0 build with S/D – SB; soldiers jewel, and dolyak runes, using signet of malice for heal. I can outright tank half the other team with little problem if i play full on defense, very solid build for bunkering.

So I’m curious; why the 30 points in Shadow Arts? I could see 20 points for Leeching Venoms, but 30 points is only good if you’re going for venomshare (which is unnecessary for a bunker).

I’m also wondering why you take S/D. That’s a great weapon set in situations where stealth is okay (it’s the one I use), but without stealth it’s pretty bad. Flanking Strike rates a “meh” at best (too hard to connect in PvP), and you cannot use CnD at all while bunkering. This means that you’re taking sword off-hand solely for Dancing Dagger, and I just don’t see that being worth it.

I’ve made an extreme self healing/vitality build in spvp. Everything was put into healing and vitality. It was somewhat sucessful. The people I played called me a pain in the kitten rogue(in a good way :P) but a pure thief tank isn’t that great. It was hard to take down, but simply can’t deliver any punches to knock out the enemy. A vitality/condition build is much more effective than a valtality/healing power build.

Stiv.1820:

This is the evade tank build I use in sPvP.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckzzzz9MolbLMolvLMa9Mxxccsbckq8khf7khG7khf7khG7070z7kuB70z7kIN70z7kG270z

That… that actually looks fantastic. I love the idea of using D/D for both weapon sets so you can take advantage of Quick Pockets and Sigil of Energy. Near-permanent evade, combined with constant long-duration AoE bleeding? Yes please. It actually seems like you could down people in a long fight with that, thanks to all of the bleeding stacks.

Fascinating. I may have to try that out.

Doomdesire.9365:

I’ve made an extreme self healing/vitality build in spvp. Everything was put into healing and vitality. It was somewhat sucessful. The people I played called me a pain in the kitten rogue(in a good way :P) but a pure thief tank isn’t that great. It was hard to take down, but simply can’t deliver any punches to knock out the enemy. A vitality/condition build is much more effective than a valtality/healing power build.

Please, do share this build. Just talking about it doesn’t really contribute, but I’d love to see what you’ve come up with.

I understand that a bunker won’t be able to “deliver any punches”. As a bunker, that wouldn’t be my job. A bunker is simply supposed to survive at whatever cost until reinforcements (the roamers) can arrive.

Dacromir.6207:

Adaneshade.2409:

I run a 10-0-30-30-0 build with S/D – SB; soldiers jewel, and dolyak runes, using signet of malice for heal. I can outright tank half the other team with little problem if i play full on defense, very solid build for bunkering.

So I’m curious; why the 30 points in Shadow Arts? I could see 20 points for Leeching Venoms, but 30 points is only good if you’re going for venomshare (which is unnecessary for a bunker).

I’m also wondering why you take S/D. That’s a great weapon set in situations where stealth is okay (it’s the one I use), but without stealth it’s pretty bad. Flanking Strike rates a “meh” at best (too hard to connect in PvP), and you cannot use CnD at all while bunkering. This means that you’re taking sword off-hand solely for Dancing Dagger, and I just don’t see that being worth it.

I use flanking strike as an extra evade/boon removal and dancing dagger as a cripple to kite around the point. The points in shadow arts are simply there for the Toughness/emergency heal, if going down and dagger storm is down, popping in stealth and immediately out before they can tick on the progress bar for the regen is handy.

Additionally, it allows for a counter to enemy bunker builds should they manage to knock you out with knockback.

Dacromir.6207:

Doomdesire.9365:

I’ve made an extreme self healing/vitality build in spvp. Everything was put into healing and vitality. It was somewhat sucessful. The people I played called me a pain in the kitten rogue(in a good way :P) but a pure thief tank isn’t that great. It was hard to take down, but simply can’t deliver any punches to knock out the enemy. A vitality/condition build is much more effective than a valtality/healing power build.

Please, do share this build. Just talking about it doesn’t really contribute, but I’d love to see what you’ve come up with.

I understand that a bunker won’t be able to “deliver any punches”. As a bunker, that wouldn’t be my job. A bunker is simply supposed to survive at whatever cost until reinforcements (the roamers) can arrive.

Now, keep in mind this is an extreme healing/vitality build that heavily relies on stealth and the ability to not be caught(basically, they can’t hit you and if they do, it won’t do much :P), due to the fact that you will gain anywhere from 350-400hp for each second in stealth. Shadow refuge, if not interrupted, can heal almost, if not more than hide in shadows. Your main attack will be most likely death blossom, for the insane healing with signet of malice. When there are 3-4 players present, dagger storm could heal an insane amount(also keep in mind, when against a zerg in wvw, signet of malice and dagger storm practically make you invincible. The more players the better :P). You might also want to use venoms as applying it steals health, but it can also be equipped with signet of agility if you prefer more dodge, which also drops caldrops, btw

Also keep in mind when versing a warrior, if you steal Axe Whirl, that also heals an insane amount.

However, with all that said I’d also like to mention that this is a pure tank build and it’s DPS sucks. Base condition damage on thief isn’t too bad though…

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckzzzz9MoFhxoovhxm9Mxxamsqcaqc8kiB7khG7khf7khG7070z7kuW70V8ofy

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckmMc9cogLbMogLbMG0aGGckMVazk8kiW7kiH7kiW7070M7kGU70V7owY8ofv

Not a realy Tpvp viable build however, so far, even if made just for gags noone beat me, Interupts stun and blind field from s/p set, setting ambush trap then waiting for someone to step on it, then setting 1 more under them after Infiltrators strike lets us to have next to permanent thiefs guild. With ressing allly rune + rock dog and Thiefs guild you can potentialy have 7 adds at a time.

If you got that many adds, just daze, him and stop him from using skills and let adds do the job. Steal has 80% chance to recharge 1 of your skills.
Also smoke screen with many of your thiefs pistol attacks processes very often blinds. If you manage to pull off pistol whip, while your thiefs are damaging the target it is certain death for glassy people.

There will always be a core problem with a bunker thief: low base stats without the heals Guardian can dish out and a reliance on Stealth. Maybe in a 2 man bunker, it could work, since Stealth would only remove you from the base. But as a solo bunker, stealth would completely ruin the entire reason you’re there, which is to stop the base from being taken over.

All I’m really saying is that there’s no reason to figure out a bunker build when it’s going to be inferior no matter what.

Krathalos.3461:

There will always be a core problem with a bunker thief: low base stats without the heals Guardian can dish out and a reliance on Stealth. Maybe in a 2 man bunker, it could work, since Stealth would only remove you from the base. But as a solo bunker, stealth would completely ruin the entire reason you’re there, which is to stop the base from being taken over.

All I’m really saying is that there’s no reason to figure out a bunker build when it’s going to be inferior no matter what.

Well, this is just for fun. Something to do. I’m not necessarily going to use it, but it’s something interesting to try. Also, I’m aware that stealth would ruing the bunker. I mention that several times, and that’s why I’m trying to develop a build that uses no stealth.

i would love to see a thief bunker, you would have the element of surprise if nothing else! Some of these sound like reasonable ideas, and agree stealth would generally be a no no. The other problem i foresee is very little stability. Thieves have almost no access to it. That’s going to be a big problem isnt it?

Well, the unicorn build IS a bunker type build. You aren’t 100% defensive because IMHO, if you don’t put a little pressure on the people that attack you, you aren’t exactly doing a good job of bunkering.

How it works :
- healing, toughness, condition damage
- signet of malice
- D/D main weapon, D/D again or SB swap
- endurance on swap sigil
- rune of the undead is a nice touch
- put caltrops right on top of the point you want to defend
- roll all other the place droping dodge caltrops, death blossoming
- roll all other the place evading everything they throw at you
- initiative regain on weapon swap if you go D/D
- don’t stealth cause it gives them free node capture which is against your role

Weakness :
- people correctly understanding that they just need to not stand in the caltrops and purge bleeds now and them to beat you
- putting conditions on you
- stuning you

Dacromir.6207:

Stiv.1820:

This is the evade tank build I use in sPvP.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckzzzz9MolbLMolvLMa9Mxxccsbckq8khf7khG7khf7khG7070z7kuB70z7kIN70z7kG270z

That… that actually looks fantastic. I love the idea of using D/D for both weapon sets so you can take advantage of Quick Pockets and Sigil of Energy. Near-permanent evade, combined with constant long-duration AoE bleeding? Yes please. It actually seems like you could down people in a long fight with that, thanks to all of the bleeding stacks.

Fascinating. I may have to try that out.

Yea it’s really fun. Sometimes you are fighting one person and another enemy or two joins the fight, by the time you down the first the 2nd guy is already down and the 3rd is bleeding to death from all the collateral dmg.

Biggest problem is that DD#3 really seems to have a short evade window so sometimes you can get blasted by a burst spec.

Next time I’m in the Mists I’m going to try the Reaper elite with it and see how that works for more AoE madness.

Was kind of expecting to see Caltrops over Shadowstep in your build Stiv. I guess the condition removal outweighs the additional healing? (and yeah… neat build)

stinkypants.8419:

Was kind of expecting to see Caltrops over Shadowstep in your build Stiv. I guess the condition removal outweighs the additional healing? (and yeah… neat build)

Yea trops or SR are legit options. Shadowstep is just one ability I can’t seem to play without (and I wanted a build with no real stealth so didn’t take SR). Such an awesome skill for con remove, running, chasing or getting to hard to get places. Since this build lacks shortbow’s flexibility I usually go with Shadowstep.

why should i share my build ? so it can be NErfeD ? no 10×...
-a popular powerfull build will be nerfed so it can become un-popular again (see past examples)
-imba omg builds you keep for yourself and hope a-ned lol team don’t realise this…

Well I tried out this evade tank thing (10/0/0/30/30) and it’s kinda hard to kill but a good ele bunker or good guard bunker takes it out without too much effort. The self healing they have just out-performs what you can do to heal yourself.

Main problem is thief has to be hitting someone to self heal and any decent ele or guard will be hitting you back harder with aoe or retaliation.

I do love stealing retaliation from guards as they just sit there looking dumb thinking you’ll kill yourself =).