Guild Wars 2

I have played professions up to level 45-80 on guardian, ranger, mesmer, necromancer and elementalist.There was a learning curve on all of them, but by the mid-30’s levels I was able to handle almost every situation without too much difficulty. The thief is different. I get defeated far more often than other professions. I have tried many weapon combos (well, as many as exist on the thief), but aside from offhand pistol to keep melees blind, it is not working.

As far as I can tell, it is the small, routine attacks from ordinary enemies killing me with the death of a thousand cuts (sometime by conditions, but most often just ordinary hits). I can usually dodge or blind or otherwise avoid the big, telegraphed attacks and I can adapt my tactics depending on the enemies I see I am about to face. But my health bar steadily decreases from the little attacks that are not usually worth dodging. I have traited up toughness and have significant investment in vitality. I am not going glass cannon and dying.

Can anyone offer me some basic advice on my approach? If I am having trouble at level 35, I am doomed at high level. How does a thief avoid dying from the steady stream of routine damage?

Sword/Pistol in PvE leveling. Use Signet of Malice to heal. Keep the blind field down like you have been but try to pull more than one mob into it. Keep in mind sword strikes hit up to 3 targets and the signet heals on every hit.

until you get access to omnomberry pie/ghost foods which allow you to handle any thing with any weapon/skill setups, I’d suggest you stick to dagger/dagger death blossoms + calltrops (with trick cooldown trait it was like only 6-8sec downtime in between effecting calltropping). carrion gear (green masterwork only) + signet of malice will keep you alive vs any size mobs

D/D and killing everything with backstab seems to be rather efficient if I remember low level PvE correctly. C&D is a wonderful PvE tool since nearly every mob in the game will forget about you. There’s just some bats somewhere (Charr lands?) that see through stealth.

try and pick up talents that support stealth and go */d. That’s what I did. When I picked up Assassin’s Reward in Accrobatics, it made things a LOT easier.

stof.9341:

D/D and killing everything with backstab seems to be rather efficient if I remember low level PvE correctly. C&D is a wonderful PvE tool since nearly every mob in the game will forget about you. There’s just some bats somewhere (Charr lands?) that see through stealth.

Backstab can be a lot of fun in PvE, and relatively safe, but not effective at all on a large scale. S/P can kill the same mobs at the same pace by standing in place and spamming blind/auto attack … only S/P can do it three mobs at a time. In open-world PvE AE damage reigns supreme.

As someone else mentioned, if you’re having issues with minor damage then life leech will help, but honestly the most important solution is to stay mobile. Simply circle strafing as you attack ensures that >80 % of mobs simply don’t do any damage, their attacks are that slow and their AI that bad. Let me repeat with bold, you should be avoiding most damage via simple WASD movement, not dodges. It is night and day between constantly moving and standing still. Once you’ve got constant movement down you can start to actively use movement to react to mob attacks by watching their animations. Most professions don’t have to do this in open-world PvE because they’re build to just soak hits, but doing it as a thief means you’ll survive much better and can even drop defensive stats for offensive stats.

Learning to avoid damage instead of soaking it is an extra skill that you have to learn as a profession whose defense is based on evasion, but it pays off well in the long run because skill-based defense ultimately wins out over stat-based defense when the one-shot hits start flying.

Tulisin.6945:

Backstab can be a lot of fun in PvE, and relatively safe, but not effective at all on a large scale. S/P can kill the same mobs at the same pace by standing in place and spamming blind/auto attack … only S/P can do it three mobs at a time. In open-world PvE AE damage reigns supreme.

Yeah but using sword autoattack all day while under the protection of black powder, well, it’s Boring. I mean, sword attacks feel slow and you you do is autoattack mostly and throwing a new black powder every 5-6s.

D/D backstab build in PvE requires more of you so you feel more active, more engaged. You got to take care of your life and the like and you feel rewarded because the mobs drop FAST.

stof.9341:

Tulisin.6945:

Backstab can be a lot of fun in PvE, and relatively safe, but not effective at all on a large scale. S/P can kill the same mobs at the same pace by standing in place and spamming blind/auto attack … only S/P can do it three mobs at a time. In open-world PvE AE damage reigns supreme.

Yeah but using sword autoattack all day while under the protection of black powder, well, it’s Boring. I mean, sword attacks feel slow and you you do is autoattack mostly and throwing a new black powder every 5-6s.

Which is fine, but a hyper-active build is not really great advice for someone who is already having issues because they aren’t playing actively enough. D/D backstab just accentuates the issues he’s having instead of mitigating them.

Sword doesn’t necessarily require playing passively, you don’t need the blind fields once you’ve learned to avoid via movement, but having that crutch is great for not dying terribly while you learn.

I have this same issue with the thief at lvl 80. I was playing quite well up until 8 with a D/D DB and condition damage build. But my thief can’t handle dungeons at all, I’m constantly dying. Moreover Orr is a huge challenge for my thief simply becuase it’s not possible to dodge / strafe out of harms way enough to survive. Just a few hits from a normal mob is practically a death sentence. Forget about trying to fight the Karka… alot of ppl complain that thief is OP, but that’s only in PvP, in PvE thieves are really hurting… Anet should see this. PvE theives just need an overall survivability boost. A good one at that.

FWB.1704:

I have this same issue with the thief at lvl 80. I was playing quite well up until 8 with a D/D DB and condition damage build. But my thief can’t handle dungeons at all, I’m constantly dying. Moreover Orr is a huge challenge for my thief simply becuase it’s not possible to dodge / strafe out of harms way enough to survive. Just a few hits from a normal mob is practically a death sentence. Forget about trying to fight the Karka… alot of ppl complain that thief is OP, but that’s only in PvP, in PvE thieves are really hurting… Anet should see this. PvE theives just need an overall survivability boost. A good one at that.

I generally farm Orr with Berserker/MF gear on my thief and finish most fights at near max health, fighting 3/4 mobs at a time. Stay mobile, dodge or evade the nasty telegraphs, and perhaps most importantly bring your targets down fast. The tips given in this thread help a lot with healing you can get without burning your #6, notably Signet of Malice, Assassin’s Reward, and life leech food. If you aren’t bringing down enemies fast enough with DB it may be time to look into a higher DPS setup, or else stagger your death blossoms more to effectively utilize its evade instead of burning out as many as you can in succession (how a lot of people use it). Gear can play a big role as well, just being 80 doesn’t mean much if you’re still in greens.

If you post your build you can get more tips on tweaks to handle PvE better, but thieves as a whole are not in a bad place for PvE.

I had a ton of issues my first go round too. I actually deleted the toon. One reason why was because the human story line was absolutely horrid. I got destroyed on every one of them. Second, Even with all of the dodging in the world, I Just coulnd’t figure out how people did enough damage in a short period of time without getting slaughtered in the process.

I am now a firm believer in a condition based set up for leveling. You can bleed up the enemy, throw down caltrops, and kite all day long. I ended up doing dd, then run in, start casting caltrops (timing it so that it is done by the time I get to the enemy, since it’s a long cast), then spam DB, then kite, then rinse and repeat. Caltrops and DB do a TON of bleed damage together. The other great thing is, caltrops has no limit on the amount of enemies it will bleed either. So, you can pull 100 enemies over your caltrops and each one of them will end up with 9-12 stacks of bleeds. It’s a wrecking machine for the undead story line quests, where you have 5+ enemies on you non-stop. Even if you are out of endurance, DB also acts as an evade! A win-win.

This is my “baseline” for a solo condition based build. You can take out 5 points out of Trickery if you want, but I like those. This gives you a lot of regen through stealing (remember mobs reset when you stealth, so be cautious when you use them, unless you’re with NPCs or other players). The last utility skill I change out a lot based on what I am doing. It’s either signet of agility when I know I will need to get rid of conditions, Shadow when I am traveling, or blinding powder when I want a stealth ability. For story quests, I tend to use Hide in Shadows heal too, which gets mobs off me when I am being overwhelmed, heals me and removes conditions too. Caltrops NEVER leave my bar, they are just too powerful for a condition solo build, IMO.

If you ever see me out and about, you might find me pulling an entire area of enemies, and, throwing down caltrops, then just watching them limp their way to me, and finally falling dead at my feet.

http://www.gw2build.com/builds/simulator.php#1.7.1.10.13.0.0.0.0.0.156.173.171.0.177.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.483.0.0.497.505.0.513.515.0.0.0.10.20.20

Troponin.4081:

The other great thing is, caltrops has no limit on the amount of enemies it will bleed either. So, you can pull 100 enemies over your caltrops and each one of them will end up with 9-12 stacks of bleeds.

Pretty sure caltrops has a 5 target limit like every other AE. If you could perfectly cycle 5 targets for all 14 seconds I guess you could technically apply a bleed stack to 70 separate targets, but it’d just be one bleed stack, not 9-12.

Your build has potential, but I don’t understand Vigor-on-Heal over Might-on-Dodge if you’re going for a dodge-heavy condition build with Signet of Malice, seems counter-intuitive for your synergy set. Also you’ve got 20 unspent trait points. Is this a build for a level 60?

Mobs will drop aggro when you stealth. I used shadow refuge a lot. A whole lot. It is amazing what you can accomplish on maps with just that skill.

Not everything has to die to accomplish a goal. Can be more fun just slaughtering everything but it isn’t always necessary.

Invis does not stop channeled abilities though. Some mobs will pull you to them, not because you placed a shadow refuge but because they already started that animation and it will pull you out of that shadow refuge and you’ll be stuck on revealed with the cool down for shadow refuge. Hide in shadow will drop aggro and then do a shadow refuge if you need to reset the fight.

Once mob aggro is dropped, their health bar will often start to fill almost right away and the mob may ignore you until it gets to the point where it spotted you. I think you have the duration of a traited CnD before a mob HP starts to refill. Point is that it has a short timer. Sometimes it becomes invulnerable until it reset. This goes for champs and skill point fights.

Thieves guild is also one of the best PvE skills. Those 2 will take mob aggro. It is amazing how much other stuff you can accomplish with this skill in maps. They grab aggro so easily that if you got nothing else but them left, pop them and run but they actually pack a punch and help out quite a bit if you are trying to solo something. Long cool down though. The balisk venom is handy if you have that loaded. Doesn’t last long but can get you out of a pinch. Shorter cool down but I liked thieves guild because I could hit a few more targets where the venom only hit 2 if traited. Dagger storm is ok if you are with a zerg on a map and there are a lot of mob spawns. If there were 5 or less mobs, I think thieves guild worked much better.

Mob AI is dumb. Give it a cordless phone and it will strangle itself. Easy to deal with and easy to counter with just a few skills.

On specific healing options…I was human and got Prayer of Kormir and I liked having that to remove 3 conditions, it is a regular skill(racial) and not on the heal line, and the Hide in Shadows heal because that will also take care of a few specific conditions and will invis and mobs will drop aggro when you invis. Not sure what you can do for other races.

Stealth traiting options in shadow arts to remove conditions and heal just have to remember that mob will reset if not attacked within a short period after stealth. Acrobatics has at couple of options.

The signet of agility will also remove one thing…I think it worked as a stun remover also(been a while since I used that but I used it for removing some stuff.)

Food. The stuff that regens health per tick, not the stuff working on a crit. If you have the crit chance wide enough, the food that works with that is great.

Tulisin.6945:

Troponin.4081:

The other great thing is, caltrops has no limit on the amount of enemies it will bleed either. So, you can pull 100 enemies over your caltrops and each one of them will end up with 9-12 stacks of bleeds.

Pretty sure caltrops has a 5 target limit like every other AE. If you could perfectly cycle 5 targets for all 14 seconds I guess you could technically apply a bleed stack to 70 separate targets, but it’d just be one bleed stack, not 9-12.

Your build has potential, but I don’t understand Vigor-on-Heal over Might-on-Dodge if you’re going for a dodge-heavy condition build with Signet of Malice, seems counter-intuitive for your synergy set. Also you’ve got 20 unspent trait points. Is this a build for a level 60?

I had read here on the forums that info on Caltrops, and when I started using it, it really does appear to be hitting more than 5 enemies. I will test it furhter though, but I was pulling 10+ enemies at one point and I am sure they were all bleeding from my caltrops alone.

My build was simply a base build. You can play with the trait skills to find what you like, but you’re right, I overlooked that and I think that might be better. This build doesn’t go to 80 because it was simply something to shoot for while leveling, and, I consider this the bare minimum if looking for a condition build at higher levels to be effective at the play style I am recommending. I’ll edit the build above to reflect that might on dodge. Just remember that when doing certain story quests, vigor can be a life or death decision because of the amount of evading you need to do.

One other thing to keep in mind is, as stated above, I change up my trait skills based on if I am in a story line quest or playing with others.

As someone mentioned earlier, S/P will turn PvE leveling into easy mode. It’s reliable and doesn’t require you to jump around and potentially attract other mobs.

I think it’s the 15-point trait in Critical Strikes that allows you to regain initiation on critical hits. Once you get this, you will be able to sustain the combo until your finger falls off. Pull 3 or so at a time, and Black Powder + Auto Attack. After each Black Powder, you want to go through two cycles of your auto attack (do the combo twice) and reapply Black Powder after. Although pretty boring, this has its uses later on – such as trying to solocap a camp in WvWvW. I personally also used Ambush to take some heat off of me and for the extra DPSs.

Troponin.4081:

I had read here on the forums that info on Caltrops, and when I started using it, it really does appear to be hitting more than 5 enemies. I will test it furhter though, but I was pulling 10+ enemies at one point and I am sure they were all bleeding from my caltrops alone.

Yes, you can bleed 10+ enemies at a time with it. It can apply bleed to up to 5 enemies every time it ticks, and the bleeds last at least 4 seconds. That isn’t the same as not having a target cap though, it’d be crazy broken without a target cap.

“As someone else mentioned, if you’re having issues with minor damage then life leech will help, but honestly the most important solution is to stay mobile. Simply circle strafing as you attack ensures that >80 % of mobs simply don’t do any damage, their attacks are that slow and their AI that bad. Let me repeat with bold, you should be avoiding most damage via simple WASD movement, not dodges.”

I should clarify. I have little trouble with melee because I can blind or strafe (usually blind to avoid accidental aggro except against dredge or rapid attackers). However, ranged attackers will get me even when strafing. Another problem, as I alluded to, is when strafing I pull extras. On my mesmer, my ranger and my elementalist (where I am often strafing), I can handle a couple of extras when I was fighting 2-3 enemies. They often will defeat my thief.

I can practice mobility more, I suppose. Maybe it is just a matter of not enough practice.

JohnLShannonhouse.1820:

However, ranged attackers will get me even when strafing. Another problem, as I alluded to, is when strafing I pull extras.

Most ranged attacks can still be strafed. That said, target prioritization is important too. You should be using your mobility to quickly close with and kill any exceptionally dangerous foes. If ranged enemies are giving you the most issues, they should be dying before they have a chance to attack many times.

How quickly are you able to put down trash mobs? A big part of thief survivability out in the open world is that things shouldn’t be living longer than a few seconds.

“How quickly are you able to put down trash mobs? A big part of thief survivability out in the open world is that things shouldn’t be living longer than a few seconds.”

I am not sure what you mean by a “few” seconds. Against 1-3 melees I take my time and kill them with offhand pistol and on hand sword or pistol skill #1. In this case, it is usually close, black powder, pause until last blind goes down, black powder and they die some time into the second BP or just afterwards. That would put a single melee in the 6-10 second range.

When I used dagger/dagger death blossom against groups that cluster, they die faster but hit me with lots of ouchies and sometimes down or defeat me. However, I have no skill sequence to use as a timer.

When I use shortbow or pistol/pistol for strafing (depending on circumstance), they last longer than with sword/pistol, but I am not sure how much longer. That said, I am strafing melees which is usually not a problem to go up and blind.

“Most ranged attacks can still be strafed.”

At near max pistol and shortbow range and assuming they are not rapid, yes (I strafe to one side and reverse direction when they shoot). However, this requires a lot of room and tends to cause more aggro and more defeat. In some areas this works, but against centaur archers in Gendarran Fields north of Nebo Terrace? Not so much, because I usually don’t have enough room. If you can strafe dodge at close range, you are much better than I am.

When it starts to feel like that buy all blue gear close to your level off the TP. Do that every so often when you feel weak.

This is the build I am using currently and have no issues at all. Use signet of Malice, and spamming DB, you heal a ton. Get Vit/tough/condition gear, then carrion armor at level 55. Trinkets should all have toughness, and you can put toughness in your armor slots if you need more.

Throw down caltrops when you need extra damage or AoE damage and the bleeds get pretty amazing.
http://www.gw2build.com/builds/simulator.php#1.7.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.497.505.0.513.517.0.0.0.10.20.20

try to use ambush trap as much as posible. But as others told before C&D is best skill to constant lose agro. You can also use condition damage on armors and kill with caltrops DB and dancing dagger

JohnLShannonhouse.1820:

“How quickly are you able to put down trash mobs? A big part of thief survivability out in the open world is that things shouldn’t be living longer than a few seconds.”

I am not sure what you mean by a “few” seconds. Against 1-3 melees I take my time and kill them with offhand pistol and on hand sword or pistol skill #1. In this case, it is usually close, black powder, pause until last blind goes down, black powder and they die some time into the second BP or just afterwards. That would put a single melee in the 6-10 second range.

You can use the quote button or [ quote ][ /quote ] tags to quote.

If you’re using pistol #1 to try and down things that could be part of your problem. Sword auto attack should be dropping enemies fast enough that they aren’t particularly dangerous, though, unless you’re using gear with low offensive stats.

P/P and short bow also great combo if u want to avoid melee.

SB aoe is very powerfull once u learn to detonate the cluster bomb just b4 it lands, it does more dmg if it all crits then a unexploded cluster and stacks more bleeds + heals 4x as much when using malice. also the posion aoe on SB is nice, its dmg ticks also trigger malice when aoeing.

also as a thief evasion = defense so learn to dodge dip duck dive and dodge !

and as stated once u get lvl 80 and use omnom pie + malice even in full zerker gear and 11k hp u can last longer then alot of ppl with the self healing (provided you use the 5 Ds of a thief ^).

Using caltrops on dodge trait helped a lot. I practiced strafing with shortbow and cripple and smoke screen for ranged and it made a world of difference. However, the biggest difference was once I turned level 40 and retraited, I found myself far more survivable. It was like night and day for reasons unclear to me.

Thanks for the advice, all.

For people asking about the target limit on caltrops, it’s a bit of an odd duck.

Caltrops respects the 5 target AoE limit, however caltrops respects that limit per tick, and selects a random five targets per tick.

Considering the 20s duration of the skill, and the fact that most of its damage is dealt via bleeds, it effectively engages and damages a virtually unlimited number of enemies, hitting 5, then another 5 (or possibly some of the same five it just hit) then another and so on. While it will only do all of its damage to all targets if there are five or fewer, and those targets stay in the trops for the full 20 ticks, in real world scenarios your targets rarely take all the damage caltrops is capable of anyway, and in my experience having mained a P/D condition thief since release the target limit restrictions are not a hindrance to the overall damage output of caltrops.

This is similar to the way that Shadow Refuge stealth ticks work if you’re bubbling more than five people. You’ll nice that the stealth seems to last longer for some players than others, and this is again because the skill randomly selects up to five targets per tick, where as an instant skill like blinding powder will only ever affect five targets, but will deliver an uniform stealth duration.

Shortbow, spec on condition dmg and vitality. Run signet of malice and spam clusterbomb/caltrops
See your health remaining at 100% even without moving and laugh
(unless you are facing veterans or higher leveled creatures like in dungeons … same tactics but this time, do move and don’t laugh)