Guild Wars 2

Can’t seem to best good condition P/D thieves no matter what I do lately.

At the moment I’m running a D/P (Some times switch to S/P) and SB for WvW.

Tried multiple load outs against a single P/D thief and he’d always be bursting me down with conditions. Using cloak and dagger to his advantage against near by mobs and such.

Tried staying at a distance and using smoke screen. Didn’t seem to be blocking his shots at all.

Tried going full offensive with S/P using devourer venom to immobilize him. But he was shadow stepping and CnD’ing all over the place and applying damage faster than my shadow return could cleanse.

Tried to blind tank him with D/P and play a little cat and mouse in and out of stealth. But of course he had the advantage of a channeled skill that hits me while stealthed.

Can’t seem to beat P/D thieves. Is the only counter to a condition P/D thief another condition P/D thief?

Good S/D is a counter,also good D/D burst thief give me trouble.

As a thief pretty much. You need to cleanse and retreat that CnD give you in order to not die from attrition, so P/D or S/D. D/D can beat them too, but they need to pull of their combos fast before the other thief restealths, which means he’ll need shadow steps available (I’m assuming said D/D isn’t GC).

If he is using critters and such around you guys, then he is obviously choosing where to fight you. Try not to fight on his terms (don’t pursue him if it means getting within agro range of other creatures, or if you do, kill those first). A P/D thief that can choose where to fight is next to unkillable by most classes.

I haven’t lost a single 1v1 since playing P/D in PvP and WvW.

Sword/Dagger probably does have the best chance to beat it but it’s still not going to be easy because you need to melee him from behind.

Honestly I don’t know of any build of class that can reliably beat a P/D Thief.

P/D has a strong advantage in WvW which it lacks in sPvP and tourneys. That’s because of two factors: Food is one. Pistol’s bleeds only last 4 seconds which isn’t a lot of damage in the long run, and there’s only so much +condition duration you can stack on your character. However there’s +40% condition duration food in the game. That’s quite a significant bonus, and a big part of the build’s success in WvW. The second factor is as you’ve mentioned, they can stealth by CnD random mobs.

The counter to P/D thief is good AoE. Greatsword Guardians are quite good at taking them down. From what I understand however you want to take them down as a thief.

I usually don’t have problem taking them down on my thief, but I am also condition build, though I tend to use D/D more often than I use P/D (it’s my alt set for when needed). I’m guessing you prefare a direct damage build, so I’d recommend a sword/dagger build that is focused on damage, but isn’t entirely glass cannon-y, with at least the trait to remove conditions whenever you stealth.

Something similar to this build by Top: http://youtu.be/kp6g0apTlvk

I’ve been playing P/D since launch and switched to S/D last week. S/D with 30 shadow beats P/D hands down. I don’t know if any other build without 30 shadow can beat it you need to be able to remove conditions and heal in stealth just as much as they do. Glass thieves will get the random win vs P/D but it isn’t consistent. No matter what build you are the ability to avoid their C&D is what really matters. S/D happens to have a high damage evade in S/D#3 that is the best C&D juke ever since it also hits them for the same damage after it evades theirs.

Dee Jay.2460:

I haven’t lost a single 1v1 since playing P/D in PvP and WvW.

Sword/Dagger probably does have the best chance to beat it but it’s still not going to be easy because you need to melee him from behind.

Honestly I don’t know of any build of class that can reliably beat a P/D Thief.

I love fighting P/D thieves. I never lose to one. That’s because I trait Shadow’s Embrace (condition removal on stealth) and Shadow’s Rejuvenation (regenerate health on stealth). A P/D thief simply does not have the burst to kill me when I remove his conditions and heal myself every three seconds.

But I also have to kill all the PvE in the area that we’re fighting because these guys like to cheeze it up and use C&D on random deer and critters to stay hidden. . . .

I also play S/D, and they are less of a problem with this weapon set. I actually don’t have any points into Shadow Arts, and run more of a glass cannon build. I like to just blow them up before they can really get going with bleed stacks with liberal use of Infil. Strike to both immobilize and get free shots in. Plus shadow return can cleanse every time they use Sneak Attack.

I’ve also noticed that a lot of these guys aren’t running shadowstep, so they tend to blow their stealth utils after being immobilized.

Being P/D yourself is also a solid counter, it just comes down to who’s the better player, though I stopped playing it because it just felt a little to cheesy for me.

Some basic tips:

1. Dodge the CnD. Some of these guys are not running any deception utils, and will have no other way to stealth.
2. Immobilize, Cripple, or chill them and when they stealth, watch your auto-attack to see if you’re connecting or not (should complete the full rotation).
3. After about 3s of their stealth, stealth yourself. This will typically blow their sneak attack which is their main source of damage.
4. P/D thieves typically don’t have tons of toughness, they just stealth a lot. That means if you get your timing right, they’ll fall to burst damage.

It all depends on their gear setup too. I can’t speak for other P/D thieves, but I run a 3100 toughness build. I’m still working on picking up the ascended rings I need and I should end up at around 3180 or so toughness at the end. It’s fairly easy as a P/D to boost your defenses to such levels.

I’m currently testing the very high toughness, after testing high vitality. After I conclude this round of testing, I’m going to try a balanced approach and see how that works out.

i use this build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAoY6alUmaPHfS6E95Ey2jdqC5JuHOFS1UdFwKA
and p/d thieves are easy kills.
with d/d you have to stealth after they do, or keep you stealth longer enough to backstab them.
with p/p just unload and when they come close to c&d, use blind.

S/D and D/D is best against P/D IMO.

S/D for shadowstep and return condition removal.
D/D if they make a big mistake and give you a chance to burst them.

Even so, I’ve had fights with P/D thieves that result in a stalemate. I haven’t lost to a P/D since I switched to this setup tho.

To counter a P/D thief you need only avoid their CnD. Which as a melee is harder as you need to be next to them. Most P/D thieves have a rythem to them. They unload and fire off 2-3 normal pistol shots then try to recloak. If you can watch their animations you might be able to get tipped off as to when it is coming and have time to do a dodge roll.

Fixeon.5076:

To counter a P/D thief you need only avoid their CnD. Which as a melee is harder as you need to be next to them. Most P/D thieves have a rythem to them. They unload and fire off 2-3 normal pistol shots then try to recloak. If you can watch their animations you might be able to get tipped off as to when it is coming and have time to do a dodge roll.

What will you do then? In spvp run bunkers with 1k + heal power and 1.1k + condition damage. For every stealth they heal 3-4k hp. And they have 3200 armor and 13k hp. Kill a thief can only wellbomb necromancer.

Like others have said 30 points in shadow and offhand dagger beats p/d thieves, and most other condition builds really.

i’ve lost to an single p/d thief 1 vs 1 as an D/D thief, i overextended, and at 3k hp i failed use falling damage for an free stealth ^^
P/D weakness – limited mobility.
Poor acces to direct damage
An thief with cond removal on stealth will usualy have no problem vs P/D thieves.
Constant imobilize can also destroy them . Specialy if you got the trait -going stealth blind enemy foes and C&d before them.

Like others have said 30 points in shadow and offhand dagger beats p/d thieves, and most other condition builds really.

Jericho.4521:

4. P/D thieves typically don’t have tons of toughness, they just stealth a lot. That means if you get your timing right, they’ll fall to burst damage.

I don’t think this is correct. A P/D thief is gonna use CnD a lot and will want at least want the extra second on stealth (15 SA) and likely the health regeneration that comes with a full 30 points in SA.

Rayya.2591:

i’ve lost to an single p/d thief 1 vs 1 as an D/D thief, i overextended, and at 3k hp i failed use falling damage for an free stealth ^^
P/D weakness – limited mobility.
Poor acces to direct damage
An thief with cond removal on stealth will usualy have no problem vs P/D thieves.
Constant imobilize can also destroy them . Specialy if you got the trait -going stealth blind enemy foes and C&d before them.

p/d has outstanding mobility!!
many cond removals? no problem for decent p/d thief.
c&d blind him and its all over… w8 something wrong

“i’ve lost to an single p/d thief 1 vs 1 as an D/D thief”
that kind of argument is the worst one in gw2 ever!
i can tell you i havent lost 1v1 vs any thief playing as p/d.
s/d very irritating, but too low dmg vs decent mobility, s/p stronger type but nothing special, d/d cond meele range.. no chance vs good positioning, d/d glass free kill.
and?..
many topics with no real thing, so many builds everyone op vs others… Guys it all about skill.

JakobGW.5730:

Dee Jay.2460:

I haven’t lost a single 1v1 since playing P/D in PvP and WvW.

Sword/Dagger probably does have the best chance to beat it but it’s still not going to be easy because you need to melee him from behind.

Honestly I don’t know of any build of class that can reliably beat a P/D Thief.

I love fighting P/D thieves. I never lose to one. That’s because I trait Shadow’s Embrace (condition removal on stealth) and Shadow’s Rejuvenation (regenerate health on stealth). A P/D thief simply does not have the burst to kill me when I remove his conditions and heal myself every three seconds.

But I also have to kill all the PvE in the area that we’re fighting because these guys like to cheeze it up and use C&D on random deer and critters to stay hidden. . . .

Its weird, many thiefs told im hacked or very laggy how could they die with those many cond removals? i don know;), and im only average p/d..

vrilek.4038:

Rayya.2591:

i’ve lost to an single p/d thief 1 vs 1 as an D/D thief, i overextended, and at 3k hp i failed use falling damage for an free stealth ^^
P/D weakness – limited mobility.
Poor acces to direct damage
An thief with cond removal on stealth will usualy have no problem vs P/D thieves.
Constant imobilize can also destroy them . Specialy if you got the trait -going stealth blind enemy foes and C&d before them.

p/d has outstanding mobility!!
many cond removals? no problem for decent p/d thief.
c&d blind him and its all over… w8 something wrong

“i’ve lost to an single p/d thief 1 vs 1 as an D/D thief”
that kind of argument is the worst one in gw2 ever!
i can tell you i havent lost 1v1 vs any thief playing as p/d.
s/d very irritating, but too low dmg vs decent mobility, s/p stronger type but nothing special, d/d cond meele range.. no chance vs good positioning, d/d glass free kill.
and?..
many topics with no real thing, so many builds everyone op vs others… Guys it all about skill.

Since when Sir ?
i can reset combat vs p/d thief with guardian /warrior / main hand dagger (without any stealth ) / elementarist / mesmer,
all i need is an blink / few leaps in the other direction without autotarget
how will you close gap ?
you will cripple me with dancing dagger and walk to me explain me, what is your gap closer , if i decide you are borring and leave the battle . NONE !!!
Specialy that you keep the battle at over 400 range , even if you have another weapon set, and you are “Skilled enough to change it in time” i will be long time gone , afk for cigareth till you reach at me.
I am sorry to tell you , but P/D thief lack mobility , ofc you can prove me i am worng , maybe we try an 1 vs 1 next week

Rayya.2591:

I am sorry to tell you , but P/D thief lack mobility , ofc you can prove me i am worng , maybe we try an 1 vs 1 next week

eh….

swap to SB
Signet of Shadows
Shadowstep
Steal
Infiltrator’s Signet
Haste
Scorpion wire
Ice Drake Venom
Caltrops
Fleet Shadow

Any of these will allow a P/D to catch up to you… one way or the other.

add to list devourer venom. if traited for condi duration I don’t need to catch you most people run when its to late after they have used their cleanse and heal so the bleeds and or poison are doing the work.

Anyway on topic I play P/D and I have came across S/D fight can go either way depending on if the s/d is good. I came across a good S/D from Yaks bend who put a hurting on me I won’t lie about that. Also a good D/D thief can get you too. With opening on bask, mug, cnd you know the usual. You have to use your stun breaker. If you can lay your cals down and fight inside them then you can be ok. I usually don’t have a problem with D/D GC thieves but they can kill a P/D pretty much like they can any other class.

stinkypants.8419:

Rayya.2591:

I am sorry to tell you , but P/D thief lack mobility , ofc you can prove me i am worng , maybe we try an 1 vs 1 next week

eh….

swap to SB
Signet of Shadows
Shadowstep
Steal
Infiltrator’s Signet
Haste
Scorpion wire
Ice Drake Venom
Caltrops
Fleet Shadow

Any of these will allow a P/D to catch up to you… one way or the other.

He’s right in his basic point though, P/D has the second lowest mobility of any thief weapon setup (after P/P). If and only if whoever is fighting the P/D thief has put some specialization into mobility, this is one of the only cases where the thief has less mobility than their opponent. For instance, a P/D thief is unlikely to catch a mobility-specced GS warrior. P/D is heavily reliant on having initiative for C&D, so chasing with IA is a pretty poor option, burning utilities is more likely but doesn’t have the same sort of long-term viability as weapon skill based mobility.

1.Guardians.
Signet of shadows provide 25% movespeed, swiftness 33%, guardians can mentain swiftness up 90-100% of the time with 2 shouts, as well shouts will remove an condition ( imobilize). gs leap got 600 range as far as i remember and judge’s intervention 1200 range ( all you have to do is to target an mob (agresive pasive or neutral) at 1200 -2000 + range or enemy and you will teleport in that direction. 75% of guardian use gs and judge’s intervention in wvw. steal got an 900 range as far as i know and if target is not in the range you will not teleport. regarding the other utility’s 90% of p/D thief use Shadow refuge in 1 slot , 1 vennom and Signet of shadows or 1 stun breaker like infiltrator signet. But even if you are able to close gap with utility’s you will have to kill an running guardian (posible with 1/2 pasive condition removals) and 8400 heal every 30 seconds, wich is kinda hard, trust me , i won’t say imposible , is related to player’s experience, but vs decent guardian is almost imposible.
edit * aegis also block skills or hits every 40 seconds, at 50% hp , when you activate retreat or virtue (not sure if shadowstep is blocked or only damage , i am sure that stuns and imobilize are blocked
2. Warriors. most of warriors in wvw got greatsword and bull charge – correct me if i am wrong. Those provide 3 movement skills, wich will break imobilize (mobile strikes- an common trait for warriors) Now whirlwind will be first skill used to escape since is ground targeting skill and many warriors use autotarget ( not my case but many use it) wich will leap to 450 range with 8 seconds cooldown followed by rush at 1200 range with 16 seconds cooldown and by bullcharge at 900 range with 40 seconds cooldown (same as your steal).
Regardin D/D elementarist i belive is clear that you will not catch that guy unless he want to. Blink mistform , skill nor 4 from air, and swiftness
Yes is true that p/d thieves win a lot of 1 vs 1 , but this is because most of ppls ignore condition damage untill is too late and you find yourself with 15 stacks of bleed vs an invisible enemy, but is posible to dodge that fight very easy

A DD thief with shortbow killed my PD thief handily. My disadvantages were I had no shadowstep as I was trying a different loadout, there were no mobs to stealth off. However when he realised I was PD he switched to shortbow and plinked me for 1k per hit. I knew he would out dps my autos so I cloak/dagger stole to him to gain stealth. He cleansed my bleeds off his heal, immobilized out of stealth and bombed me. I had no more blinks, heal was on CD, I couldn’t dodge to him to cloak/dagger as he kept his range well with disabling shot. When I was half health he switched to DD and blew me up using the old tried and true.

I could have beaten him with my normal loadout but he played it very well.

This is very interesting As I understood from this thread, most non P/D burst thieves have an easy time to counter the P/D thief.. So far I’m low level and haven’t tried it in WvW but in spvp I find it to be much easier to kill the burst thief. When backstabbing theif uses up his burst on the first attempt to kill, he usually fails, so when you know he’s there it’s much easier to prepare yourself for his next attempt and put him down.

On utilities I run with Blinding Power, Shadow Refuge. As a 3rd I use caltrops but I often swap it for Shadowstep (since I have caltrops on dodge anyway) to get out from the immobilize/stun and the insane burst that follows.

Azure Prower.8701:

Can’t seem to best good condition P/D thieves no matter what I do lately.

At the moment I’m running a D/P (Some times switch to S/P) and SB for WvW.

Tried multiple load outs against a single P/D thief and he’d always be bursting me down with conditions. Using cloak and dagger to his advantage against near by mobs and such.

Tried staying at a distance and using smoke screen. Didn’t seem to be blocking his shots at all.

Tried going full offensive with S/P using devourer venom to immobilize him. But he was shadow stepping and CnD’ing all over the place and applying damage faster than my shadow return could cleanse.

Tried to blind tank him with D/P and play a little cat and mouse in and out of stealth. But of course he had the advantage of a channeled skill that hits me while stealthed.

Can’t seem to beat P/D thieves. Is the only counter to a condition P/D thief another condition P/D thief?

Shadow arts + condition remove on stealth. Then its all mind games …

Dee Jay.2460:

I haven’t lost a single 1v1 since playing P/D in PvP and WvW.

Sword/Dagger probably does have the best chance to beat it but it’s still not going to be easy because you need to melee him from behind.

Honestly I don’t know of any build of class that can reliably beat a P/D Thief.

That’s kinda funny… I haven’t died to a single P/D Thief on my guardian…

On guard it’s not hard at all with Signet of Resolve/Purity/Smite condition to wipe the stacking of condition damage. Passive heal/heal on dodge mitigate what happens in between those with ease. JI + Mighty blow + Leap of Faith to get me in mele range quickly. Binding blade to grab/pull (will target and work even if the thief is stealthed). Constant vigor and some basic dodge timing will also seriously mitigate sneak attack.

As P/D thieves only are really dealing with 1 condition and stacking it, removal is key to defeating them.

Heal condition every 3 seconds in stealth + blinding when they try to CnD you or simply dodging. If there are “wildlife” around, kill them and stop his CnD.

S/D also destroys them in 1 v1

Don’t have much trouble with those on 30/30/0/0/10 P/P + SB.
You can interrupt CnD, channel him with unload in stealth (especially with food procs and things like immobile venom) and single evade from sb lasts longer than sneak attack channel

Of course there are ways to counter every build in the game if there was no counter probably everyone would run it. Some people will have no problem against p/d thieves if they are running the right stuff and some will just depends on each scenario.

Rayya is right that if you trait for condi removal in stealth you will have a much easier time fighting a P/D thief. Most other thief packages that trait this condi removal in stealth will have to give something up possibly in damage or in larger ini pool.

A d/d 10/30/30 can achieve this with heal in stealth and condi removal. If you miss a CnD then you will be eating bleeds until you can restealth. It all depends honestly.

If I know I am going to duel any kind of melee class I can remove SoS put down ambush sit inside it and pop thieves guild and lulz. Fighting a D/D thief you can go for good lulz and just keep Shadow step on incase of a bask venom then put all traps down and sit inside them rinse and repeat. That’s if you know its a duel though. Just typical roaming though then yea you will be ok.

Anyway pretty much every thief can chose when to fight and when to run for the most part especially in WvW its alot easier.

Depends on build, P/D comes in a variety of builds from venom to crit to condition based and they tend to use C&D on things that don’t dodge when possible…Pets, minions yellow and PvE mobs, not just you!

Some build for heavy longevity and will outlast just about most builds!

Get the Thief out of her comfort zone of popping in and out of stealth while healing 3,000 HP each time they stealth!!!

Cempa.5619:

Get the Thief out of her comfort zone of popping in and out of stealth while healing 3,000 HP each time they stealth!!!

3,000 HP is quite over exadurated.
It is ~320HP per second from Shadows Rejuvenation.
Providing you need to Sneak Attack lets round it up to 3×320=1000HP per Stealth.
Also from Shadow Protector you get 5×120=600HP per Stealth(IF you trait it.There is a nasty bug,that when you C&D and you still have the old regen running,thew new doesn’t apply.So you will have to wait 1 sec more even after reveled go away to benefit properly).
So we can safely round it up to ~1500-1600 HP at best

You are running pistol as an off-hand, right? Why don’t you ‘5’ after he performed two auto-attacks. He’d definitely come into melee range to Cloak and Dagger (C&D) you after two auto-attacks. The rotation for most P/D thieves is as follow for optimum dps: C&D, two auto-attacks, Sneak Attack (main-hand Pistol attack out of invisibility), two auto-attacks, C&D, Sneak Attack, and repeat. P/D thieves love it when you stand still – for the obvious reason of them being ranged and being able to C&D you at will. If you fight near other AI mobs (including allied Mesmer clones and Ranger’s allied pet), well, good luck. In addition, the attack animation for C&D is a little slow. This will give your off-hand pistol ‘5’ time to apply the blind before his attack lands. If his attack missed, he would be down 6 less initiatives. If you’re running a sword as a main-hand, you have the option to initiate before he does with ‘2’ then ‘5’ after he have already performed two ranged auto-attacks. With the dagger as a main-hand, you don’t have the leisure to initiate like you would with a sword. In this case, I suggest you use ‘5’ just before he come into melee range. If he dare not enter your smoke field, use Heartseeker ‘2’ to get out of the field. This will apply a leap combo finisher at the end of your Heartseeker, making you invisible and giving you a window of opportunity to open up on him. Well, most P/D thieves can sustain their initiative with the trait ‘Infusion of Shadow’ – gaining 2 initiatives upon entering stealth. I just hope you don’t run out of initiative before the P/D thief does, otherwise you’d be in a bad position. Good luck!

My P/D thief can’t be killed. ;s Pretty much a bunker thief.

Best bet though is spamming immobilize and poison and not 1 on 1ing.

Get slowed pulse on shadow arts.. Anddont let him stealth

Hope your current Trait setup includes Shadow’s Embrace, just for the case of meeting a P/D Thief, or pretty much run or die.

P/D with caltrops spam is just outright ridiculous.
You can dodge 2 CnD’s, then you are just crippled until you bleed out (which happens very fast).