Guild Wars 2

Just want to bring this topic back into dev`s mind

word.

S/D is so fun to play. But i feel like i hit with the stregnth of a wet noodle.

Cause you’re not traiting damage while playing a defensive-heavy tempo-oriented kit, and/or are not fully utilizing your AA chain and are depending on only ever using FS/LS or just the first two hits of the AA sequence.

S/D only works when managing your opponents’ cooldowns and creating your own openings. The style has changed, and it is slower to kill due to its lack of burst, but it’s still plenty usable.

I regularly auto for 7-10k on each of the latter two hits of the chain in WvW which is often plenty to reach an execute given enough whittling down.

I think S/D’s biggest problem is initiative costs and cooldowns of most of the other class’ being too low given elite specs providing so much low-cooldown utility and damage with very few tell options.

Most of S/D is well-done in it of itself, however. Toying with numbers tweaks to it alone will just keep it either OP or perpetually weak.

S/d’s biggest problem is even as CnD for stealth harder to pull off than most sets, the Stealth attack itself is lacklustre. It also lacks the interrupt that its close cousin S/p has and the Dagger off hand just does not compete with pistol off hand.

Off hand pistol just beats off hand dagger offensively and defensively and when looking at LS and boon theft s/p can get boon theft via an on interrupt sigil.

ive been playing s/d in spvp and i have no problem wiping the floor with my kit

I actually was doing a S/D thing not an hour ago.

Was effective pacing myself more slow and steady. Damage adds up unexpectedly quickly that way.

Damage is not really a problem with the set.

I would really like to see an OH Dagger change … this would help S/D to compete with d/p and it could bring back d/d as an realiable weapon set.

s/d is in a comfortable position, u just need more skill than vault d/p

Thief is a decap and +1 bot, that’s his role. D/P fills this role better because you can burst harder and you have easy access to stealth which allows you to conceal your rotations. Which means S/D needs to have another role. Could it be a skirmisher? I guess. So it has to compete with Dragon Hunters and Revenants and be able to 1v1 effectively. It’s okay against what, eles and necros? Dragon Hunters and Revs are also great in team fights, while S/D is much less so.

Bad auxiliary skills need a buff. Dancing Dagger needs a straight up buff in Cripple duration and perhaps deal more damage to targets it bounces to, so it’s better in team fights and 2v2s.

CnD is terribly unreliable. I don’t like the idea of making more skills unblockable, but I don’t know how else to make it not blow. Maybe it should cost 8 initiative, always grant stealth even if you swing at thin air, and refund 2 initiative if you hit something?

Acrobatics needs to be buffed and given a defined role instead of just being a worse Daredevil. I mean, come on, look at Don’t Stop and compare it to Unhindered Combatant. Grandmaster Traits need to be buffed, that’s for sure. Perhaps it needs a trait that grants might to allies when you dodge and attack while wielding a sword? Something like that. I think it should be a trait line that makes Thief good in team fights and prolonged 1v1s, which means it should give sustain and team support.

S/D has better mobility than D/P. CnD isn’t unreliable so much as it suffers from blocking/evading more than BP-HS combo. But if it hits you get stealth cheaper than the combo.

Where the set suffers most imo is people try to play it like D/P or expect it to play just as quickly. There are plenty of advantages to a set with a built in teleport and immobilize.

Where it suffers, again just imo, is dealing with projectiles. But that is true for a lot of thief builds generally.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVn8lClOhFmCGOB8PhFYCTLBEAyAephzQbYuDWCbhA-TpROAB9WGQ+DBA8nAAA2fA2jAw5PAAA
This is my s/d setup. It beats anything boon reliant because of it’s insane boon hate. The lack of damage you speak of is covered by might and strength’s damage boost while under might. Comboing properly with the set allows you to 100-0 squishies if they aren’t prepared and will let you not only gain a higher skirmishing ability (1v1 isn’t the goal but it helps to be able to do it when needed) due to higher condi cleanse and point contestion ability (No need to stealth with this set really so you can constantly have point pressure) you have more engage/disengage than d/p when you actively use sword 2, and you can also keep up pretty strong range pressure through a combo of poisoning and keeping separation active in fights. (+30% damage on aa, +5% damage on everything else)

Edit: @YuiRS, I disagree that d/p bursts harder than s/d. At least with setup I find s/d does more damage in it’s initial engage due to the fact that it rips off 5 boons throughout the whole thing which not only buffs my damage but takes away any damage reductions they have (also keeps up damage a ton better due to set design being more sustain damage oriented). D/p is also super predictable and easy to time so s/d gets the element of surprise and more outplay ability imo. I think once people are willing to get over the mindset of s/d is garbage and d/p will always reign supreme it’s very easy to make an s/d build that performs up to expectations of the thief.

Ario.8964:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVn8lClOhFmCGOB8PhFYCTLBEAyAephzQbYuDWCbhA-TpROAB9WGQ+DBA8nAAA2fA2jAw5PAAA
This is my s/d setup. It beats anything boon reliant because of it’s insane boon hate. The lack of damage you speak of is covered by might and strength’s damage boost while under might. Comboing properly with the set allows you to 100-0 squishies if they aren’t prepared and will let you not only gain a higher skirmishing ability (1v1 isn’t the goal but it helps to be able to do it when needed) due to higher condi cleanse and point contestion ability (No need to stealth with this set really so you can constantly have point pressure) you have more engage/disengage than d/p when you actively use sword 2, and you can also keep up pretty strong range pressure through a combo of poisoning and keeping separation active in fights. (+30% damage on aa, +5% damage on everything else)

Edit: @YuiRS, I disagree that d/p bursts harder than s/d. At least with setup I find s/d does more damage in it’s initial engage due to the fact that it rips off 5 boons throughout the whole thing which not only buffs my damage but takes away any damage reductions they have (also keeps up damage a ton better due to set design being more sustain damage oriented). D/p is also super predictable and easy to time so s/d gets the element of surprise and more outplay ability imo. I think once people are willing to get over the mindset of s/d is garbage and d/p will always reign supreme it’s very easy to make an s/d build that performs up to expectations of the thief.

If you really want boonhate you should try RS. It too steals stacks. Just on the initial steal and AA you can rip 6 with BT . I have been fleshing out a power build s/x going this route. I am not sure yet as to whether I prefer off hand or P however as that blind and interrupt so useful. I think the ability to steal boons and give them to oneself is of great benefit and is too often overlooked .

My favorite part of the s/x set is the engage and disengage. You can frustrate an enemy to no end as they really have to react to every thing you to rather then anticipate what you will do.

babazhook.6805:

Ario.8964:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVn8lClOhFmCGOB8PhFYCTLBEAyAephzQbYuDWCbhA-TpROAB9WGQ+DBA8nAAA2fA2jAw5PAAA
This is my s/d setup. It beats anything boon reliant because of it’s insane boon hate. The lack of damage you speak of is covered by might and strength’s damage boost while under might. Comboing properly with the set allows you to 100-0 squishies if they aren’t prepared and will let you not only gain a higher skirmishing ability (1v1 isn’t the goal but it helps to be able to do it when needed) due to higher condi cleanse and point contestion ability (No need to stealth with this set really so you can constantly have point pressure) you have more engage/disengage than d/p when you actively use sword 2, and you can also keep up pretty strong range pressure through a combo of poisoning and keeping separation active in fights. (+30% damage on aa, +5% damage on everything else)

Edit: @YuiRS, I disagree that d/p bursts harder than s/d. At least with setup I find s/d does more damage in it’s initial engage due to the fact that it rips off 5 boons throughout the whole thing which not only buffs my damage but takes away any damage reductions they have (also keeps up damage a ton better due to set design being more sustain damage oriented). D/p is also super predictable and easy to time so s/d gets the element of surprise and more outplay ability imo. I think once people are willing to get over the mindset of s/d is garbage and d/p will always reign supreme it’s very easy to make an s/d build that performs up to expectations of the thief.

If you really want boonhate you should try RS. It too steals stacks. Just on the initial steal and AA you can rip 6 with BT . I have been fleshing out a power build s/x going this route. I am not sure yet as to whether I prefer off hand or P however as that blind and interrupt so useful. I think the ability to steal boons and give them to oneself is of great benefit and is too often overlooked .

My favorite part of the s/x set is the engage and disengage. You can frustrate an enemy to no end as they really have to react to every thing you to rather then anticipate what you will do.

I just don’t like using SA with a sword set due to the lack of stealth based gameplay built into the set. On s/d you don’t get much from sa outside of that and the loss of one of the traitlines you’d have to switch is too much for me to justify it at least. On s/p you’d have to take bound to have access to stealth which again isn’t worth the sacrifice imo.

I believe the perceived problem with S/D in WvW is that it is completely shut down by another thief wielding D/P. That fight is so one-sided that a D/P thief could win even if it was missing 2 traitlines… Thieves probably fight other thieves more than any other profession in WvW, so its no wonder they think S/D is weak.

Against other professions, it is very viable, and super fun to play! It probably still needs some minor tweaks, but it is not nearly as weak as some make it out to be.

I’ve been tinkering with acro, trick and DD for some serious dodging.

The damage isn’t that bad, you might think DA gives so much to every build making it a must have choice, and I agree to disagree :-P Acro gives 7% damage increase to swords and lot’s of vigor.

S/D Marauder Acrobat

A very annoying spec to play against, with loads of dodges with high vigor uptime.

Keywords:

2,6k power (with bloodlust stacks)
1,1k toughness
2,2k armor
18,5k health
63% critical chance
894 ferocity

Anyways, over to the fun stuff:


35% recharge on steal (this is standard trickery stuff) + 1% recharge every time you dodge (and you gonna dodge A LOT) – gw2skill-info about steal is wrong btw – you get 15% from Lead Attacks and 20% from Sleight of Hand.

Damage increase:
5% Force Sigil
7% (Swindler’s Equilibrium – sword)
15% (if you got 15 stacks of Lead Attacks – keep spamming a skill (spamming “smart”) that uses initiative before combat)

Total: 27% damage increase if all above checks – 12% if you don’t count in Lead Attacks (yes Deadly Arts will give you more damage modifiers – but this build is about dodging and staying alive) while doing decent damage)

Damage decrease:
10% from food
7% from rune
10% from Dash (both physical and condi)

Total: 27% constant damage reduction (since you will dodge a lot – Unhindered Combatant will almost always be active)

Evading attacks benefits:
Recharge on steal (1% pr dodge)
5 seconds of vigor – 1 sec CD – stacks duration
1 initiative and regen for 6 seconds
Gain 546 health (Driven Fortitude)
Remove 1 condition (any)
Removes Immob, Chill and Cripple

Vigor = moar dodges
10 seconds of vigor upon evading an attack
Vigor is 50% more effective
Stealing gives you 10 sec of vigor




http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYFn8lClOhFmCGOhlriqbBmuAwbDygPYe6v+vH-T1SBQBYRpUGVWAgHAQCV/ZBHBAzoE8KKR0whAYCnAADu/Q+0HEAABwRP6RP6RPakCQ0dWA-w

Turk.5460:

I believe the perceived problem with S/D in WvW is that it is completely shut down by another thief wielding D/P. That fight is so one-sided that a D/P thief could win even if it was missing 2 traitlines… Thieves probably fight other thieves more than any other profession in WvW, so its no wonder they think S/D is weak.

Against other professions, it is very viable, and super fun to play! It probably still needs some minor tweaks, but it is not nearly as weak as some make it out to be.

Ehh i disagree to an extent. I think s/d has a real weakness to the daredevil condis running around. Ive fought many d/d,d/p and yea d/p is tough to fight but its not unwinnable. Focus on dazing and hitting that 50% to activate the immo in DA. If you can keep a thief still you win. I have more trouble with trapper rangers, and condi thieves than anything. Even wars that are bulky are hard for me. The longer the fight goes on the harder it gets for s/d i believe you start running out of resource and evades.

mompen.7952:

I’ve been tinkering with acro, trick and DD for some serious dodging.

The damage isn’t that bad, you might think DA gives so much to every build making it a must have choice, and I agree to disagree :-P Acro gives 7% damage increase to swords and lot’s of vigor.

S/D Marauder Acrobat

A very annoying spec to play against, with loads of dodges with high vigor uptime.

Keywords:

2,6k power (with bloodlust stacks)
1,1k toughness
2,2k armor
18,5k health
63% critical chance
894 ferocity

Anyways, over to the fun stuff:


35% recharge on steal (this is standard trickery stuff) + 1% recharge every time you dodge (and you gonna dodge A LOT) – gw2skill-info about steal is wrong btw – you get 15% from Lead Attacks and 20% from Sleight of Hand.

Damage increase:
5% Force Sigil
7% (Swindler’s Equilibrium – sword)
15% (if you got 15 stacks of Lead Attacks – keep spamming a skill (spamming “smart”) that uses initiative before combat)

Total: 27% damage increase if all above checks – 12% if you don’t count in Lead Attacks (yes Deadly Arts will give you more damage modifiers – but this build is about dodging and staying alive) while doing decent damage)

Damage decrease:
10% from food
7% from rune
10% from Dash (both physical and condi)

Total: 27% constant damage reduction (since you will dodge a lot – Unhindered Combatant will almost always be active)

Evading attacks benefits:
Recharge on steal (1% pr dodge)
5 seconds of vigor – 1 sec CD – stacks duration
1 initiative and regen for 6 seconds
Gain 546 health (Driven Fortitude)
Remove 1 condition (any)
Removes Immob, Chill and Cripple

Vigor = moar dodges
10 seconds of vigor upon evading an attack
Vigor is 50% more effective
Stealing gives you 10 sec of vigor




http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYFn8lClOhFmCGOhlriqbBmuAwbDygPYe6v+vH-T1SBQBYRpUGVWAgHAQCV/ZBHBAzoE8KKR0whAYCnAADu/Q+0HEAABwRP6RP6RPakCQ0dWA-w

Its a matter of what you prefer really. Acro line is more defensive. DA has more offensive focuses. Dont for get about DA executioner or improvise…. i like executioner.. and also the poison is handy when fighting wars/ eles or anything that builds with Regen! Ive tried acro with s/d and its just not enough damage for me, i dont use bloodlust tho so maybe hats help balence that. Just sucks stackjng

In WVW s/d is for sure an alternative even with acro, but in spvp the damage is to low and you cant fullfill the needed roles better or even than other classes. What could help is to speed up the aa and change OH dagger which also helps the DD ser.

mompen.7952:

I’ve been tinkering with acro, trick and DD for some serious dodging.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYFn8lClOhFmCGOhlriqbBmuAwbDygPYe6v+vH-T1SBQBYRpUGVWAgHAQCV/ZBHBAzoE8KKR0whAYCnAADu/Q+0HEAABwRP6RP6RPakCQ0dWA-w

Hey! That’s what I am running as well!

Except for the Dagger… It’s a zerker, and it has the Air sigil. And the sword is currently using a Rage sigil. And I don’t run foods. Too expensive. Also using Withdraw instead of CV, also, exotic armor. Ascended is too expensive. (but ascended trinkets.) but OTHERWISE it’s the same!

Great fun build, haven’t quite settled on sigils yet though.

TwiceDead.1963:

mompen.7952:

I’ve been tinkering with acro, trick and DD for some serious dodging.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYFn8lClOhFmCGOhlriqbBmuAwbDygPYe6v+vH-T1SBQBYRpUGVWAgHAQCV/ZBHBAzoE8KKR0whAYCnAADu/Q+0HEAABwRP6RP6RPakCQ0dWA-w

Hey! That’s what I am running as well!

Except for the Dagger… It’s a zerker, and it has the Air sigil. And the sword is currently using a Rage sigil. And I don’t run foods. Too expensive. Also using Withdraw instead of CV, also, exotic armor. Ascended is too expensive. (but ascended trinkets.) but OTHERWISE it’s the same!

Great fun build, haven’t quite settled on sigils yet though.

by mixing zerk and maruaders you can get higher stats if your using different runes. this is what i use. 19k hp a little more power a littler more crit damage and 6 % more crit chance

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVn0MBlOh9OBGOBkmiFYCbuDeCbhaJgAQGwLNcGaDA-TVCEQBFb/hNqEMOPAgEp+zDOCAOU5XFOBAuTfAAOEAkCQQdWA-w

if you add all vitality infusions it pushes this build over 20k hp

TwiceDead.1963:

mompen.7952:

I’ve been tinkering with acro, trick and DD for some serious dodging.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYFn8lClOhFmCGOhlriqbBmuAwbDygPYe6v+vH-T1SBQBYRpUGVWAgHAQCV/ZBHBAzoE8KKR0whAYCnAADu/Q+0HEAABwRP6RP6RPakCQ0dWA-w

Hey! That’s what I am running as well!

Except for the Dagger… It’s a zerker, and it has the Air sigil. And the sword is currently using a Rage sigil. And I don’t run foods. Too expensive. Also using Withdraw instead of CV, also, exotic armor. Ascended is too expensive. (but ascended trinkets.) but OTHERWISE it’s the same!

Great fun build, haven’t quite settled on sigils yet though.

I suggest in the build that Vigorous Recovery in Acro be dropped. It superfluous and does not add a lot to the build, if anything.

You will find that between the steal and the Feline grace you have full vigor uptime. I think you much better off with PR for added cleanse and regen or even instant reflexes. To Instant reflexes just as example , it a 2 second evade on a 40 second cooldown, this itself can trigger vigor via Felines grace AND cleanse up to two conditions plus get you some heals via driven fortitude along with that 2 seconds of evade immunity. Way more bang for the buck then is a vigor that more often then not stacks atop another running vigor.

I run this with d/p and s/d, I prefer the extra toughness as I find this helps out more vs spike dmg (enemy thievs and glass power chronos)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVl0MhSnY5TwwJw/ELwEmWCIAsbm7gnwWoXa4M0GA-TlDEQBASJIBeAB+Ttics/gDVi1GNMG4AIkIVVewREQKKNQwJAoJKDcn+AAcoACAgAcz2sNvZ28m38mH6QH6QH6Q7628mH9oHtUACq1C-w

One Runeset that I find works quite well with s/x is Lyssa. With a low ICD elite traited you are getting precision which is needed in the build in any case along with the ability to remove condition bombs

The #2 cleanse along with any other sources well help keep individual stacks growing between bombs. This (Lyssa) is especially useful when you pull back from a fight because health low and need to reset fast while having a number of conditions on. EA will not work as you no longer evading and you really do not want to use up all your INI on 2. Use your elite on nothing (BV is nice here as you get it reloaded so it does not go to waste), get those conditions cleared, reset health to full and reengage.

The boons from the conversion are a nice add as well.

In WvW. I don’t have a crafted or planned build but this is where I’m at right now with s/d I think.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVn8lCdPhFOBmOBkmiFYCTLBEAyAehhzQbYOEeCbhA-TlSBQB6RPQGVuQujAQCV/RDHCgrs/okqCnAg8pJAAPAAGpEMAACwNbz28mBO6RP6RP6RrNv5Nv5NLFAF7sA-w

Scholars and Exposed Weakness handle the top of the fight well enough and Executioner, vulnerability, and whatever seem to roll up the bottom of the fight fast enough. I’ve used Escapists Abs sometimes but I’m not sure if it’s saving me at all or just prolonging things so I normally stick to PI, I feel like with s/d I need to pack the top and bottom of a fight into quick opener sliding into the closer otherwise it’s a longer blink in and out fight which is fine and doable but I’d rather just run away.

I feel like CnD isn’t too bad, great going into Steal. I don’t feel that much more pressure from d/p thieves, my main problem is anything thorny, makes you have to tap lightly a few times to ease into fights so you don’t explode yourself. Dancing Dagger kind of sucks but it’s better with Panic Strike now. My main gripe with sword is that the auto chain doesn’t have to be faster or more powerful, just that I would like the animation to be snappier, or adjust the speed and power to make it looks snappier. That and Flanking Strike skill queue still feels muddy, I double load that one sometimes.

I’m not good enough a player to say what the kit needs, but that’s what I want.

I would love to see beautiful dancer thieves come back again. They looked so fabulous when they died.

Ill try to record some once i finish my set off. But i think there are a decent amount of us. I just dont want too many of us running around because then the nerfs will come

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVn8lClOhFNBGOB8PhFYCTLBEAKAzhwSYK07LsoGRA-TJxBQBGc/BA8EA8SZgPeKAAA

Have fun and enjoy the hilarity.

CnD is fine – no idea what more you guys want, especially since CiS is ‘OP’ according to some of you.
They could reverse the boonsteal nerf and that would actually help.
But in the end: I don’t think it will happen.
Nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all, the needle returns to the start of the song and we all sing along like before…

Hey maybe with the next expansion we get pogo sticks!

Azukas.1426:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVn8lClOhFNBGOB8PhFYCTLBEAKAzhwSYK07LsoGRA-TJxBQBGc/BA8EA8SZgPeKAAA

Have fun and enjoy the hilarity.

At first I thought this was a joke, then I tried it in low-tier sPvP and it’s amazing. Thank you good sir.

would be nice to see larcenous strike more useful.
change the boon steal priority list to something like: Might, Fury, Protection, Ageis

Xtinct.7031:

would be nice to see larcenous strike more useful.
change the boon steal priority list to something like: Might, Fury, Protection, Ageis

You can combo with Bountiful Theft or Absorption rune depending on their boon lineup.

Remember RS also steals stacks. If you steal with BT and a Sigil of absorption you generally get down to the meat where the stacked might lies and RS and or Larcenous can get at that rather easily. Coupled with a Larcenous you will find yourself tabbing through the enemies with the fattest stacks and going for them.

I use S/d on my thief, just last night I hit every top stat except for defense and healing….literally

I lost count of how many times I’ve hit top damage too

Maybe it sucks in pve, but in pvp if used right with the right build you can destroy ppl if you use it right

Xtinct.7031:

would be nice to see larcenous strike more useful.
change the boon steal priority list to something like: Might, Fury, Protection, Ageis

Would rather it steal stability and resistance before might or fury.

All Matters Fecal.9560:

Azukas.1426:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVn8lClOhFNBGOB8PhFYCTLBEAKAzhwSYK07LsoGRA-TJxBQBGc/BA8EA8SZgPeKAAA

Have fun and enjoy the hilarity.

At first I thought this was a joke, then I tried it in low-tier sPvP and it’s amazing. Thank you good sir.

You’re welcome. It’s funny how I dont even play thief yet I know more about the class than 95% of the thieves on this forum LOL

ppl are already kittening about how it needs to be nerfed rn, please stop