Guild Wars 2

This patch had a few nice changes, a couple of debatably justified nerfs, etc. I’m not too bothered by most of the changes that did occur this patch, but I grow increasingly unhappy with the changes that don’t happen and remain unaddressed month after month.

There are a handful of issues that are still plaguing the class and are having a very huge impact on its enjoyability. These are things that should have been looked into months ago.

1.) Downed State (PvE). It is easily the worst in the game. With most classes, when playing solo, I average probably a 70/30 chance of rallying. On the Thief it’s like 30/70 at best. The Teleport is mostly useless, Smoke Bomb is entirely useless, and the damage on #1 is pathetic. It’s a wreck of a downed state in solo PvE that tends to frustrate newer players doubly considering how easily thieves go down in the early levels.

2.). P/P. I would argue that MH Pistol in general is just a little off. Body Shot is far too situational (Brutal Shot was buffed, why wasn’t it?) and Vital Shot has too long of an aftercast for its damage/bleed specs. This is true even for P/D, but it’s a very critical issue for P/P: The burst build you’re likely to be sporting means Vital Shot is abysmal and that in turn means that your only source of halfway decent DPS is Unload, which is an Initiative hog. The best you can manage with it is mediocre burst with poor sustained damage and zero utility at a maximum of 900 range. The set is just plain broken and needs a rework. At the very least, Vital Shot needs to be tweaked to where it fires faster and does a bit more direct damage in proportion to the bleed effect.

3.). Stealth does not drop aggro- lolwut? I have never heard a defense of this change that made even a lick of sense. The Thief is an extremely fragile class that needs to be able to operate in melee range- stealth is their only real defensive tool and it is not configured to work as a defensive tool. This needs to be reverted. And Smoke Bomb needs to be buffed (see #1)

4.) Trick Shot- the recent nerf hit the SB hard, and Trick Shot was already weak before the nerf. I’m actually okay with it not homing, but, like Vital Shot, it needs a speed/damage buff to be a usable, functional autoattack. The slow ranged autoattack issue hits Thieves harder than other classes because they rely on the autoattack as the only free source of DPS while their other skills share a resource, meaning that you have to sacrifice too much damage to get any utility. The Shortbow is great when you can Clusterbomb-kill trash mobs and such, but is not a good DPS weapon which makes it more situational than it should be.

5.) Traps – Ambush is decent, the rest are quite bad. Some would say Venoms are too, but at least they have situational uses (I would certainly advocate for a well-thought out rework of Venoms too though). These need a buff to be worth eating up a skill slot for.

6.) Pistol Whip – The damage was nerfed because of how broken it was with Haste, even though everyone knew that Haste (well, Quickness rather) was the problem and not Pistol Whip. This needs to be reverted.

7.) Richochet – This received a substantial buff a while back, but it’s still pretty bad. The piercing trait gives the potential for full damage vs. multiple targets. Ricochet should give at least a 40% to bounce. Possibly a 50/25 split for 1-2 extra targets.

8.) Caltrops – I actually think Caltrops are still a little too good even after the recent nerf. It’s practically a necessity in PvE, which is bad design, and being as good as it is masks some of the deeper problems the class has such as inadequate bleed stacking from condition weapon skills, etc. I think the change that needs to be made here is each tick should only give 1 bleed stack, not 2. Is this even intended? It could be a bug.

9.) Last Refuge – Never mind that the trait isn’t very good anyway due to Stealth’s lack of defensive utility, but in many situations it actually screws up theThief’s tempo by uncontrollably triggering the Revealed debuff at an inopportune time. In essense, it’s often more of a curse than a boon and there’s no way to avoid having it if you want to spec into Shadow Arts.

Einlanzer.1627:

1.) Downed State (PvE).

I have not been downed in PvE for a long time except when fighting the Claw, which a downed state is bad for everyone anyway.

I don’t expect that to be fix any time soon since it’s not happening often enough due to Thieves getting good at not going down in the first place.

2.). P/P.

It’s a weapon set for fun. If you want damage output, there are obviously better alternatives.

I rather see an SB fix than this.

3.). Stealth does not drop aggro- lolwut?

sigh…seriously?

4.) Trick Shot- the recent nerf hit the SB hard, and Trick Shot was already weak before the nerf. I’m actually okay with it not homing, but, like Vital Shot, it needs a speed/damage buff to be a usable, functional autoattack. The slow ranged autoattack issue hits Thieves harder than other classes because they rely on the autoattack as the only free source of DPS. The Shortbow is great when you can Clusterbomb-kill trash mobs and such, but is not a good DPS weapon which makes it more situational than it should be.

This shouldn’t be in your list, since I thought this thread if for “the changes that don’t happen and remain unaddressed month after month” — it’s been addressed and now it’s changed.

5.) Traps – Ambush is decent, the rest are pretty garbage.

You need to identify which skills are for fun, which are for casual, and which are for competitive. Then you’ll understand why some skills are perceived to be “garbage”

6.) Pistol Whip

I agree with this one. The stun should last long enough for you to finish your mini-100blades — or hasten the mini-100blades so it will complete within the duration of the stun — or increase the damage per swing and cut the number of swings to 3 swings, total damage remain the same.

7.) Richochet -

The reason why this is the way it is is because of Unload. Increasing the chance to 40% will make this over powered. TBH, I could care less about this trait because if I want a bouncing projectile, I’d use a SB. It seems to me this is just a filler, so I don’t expect this to receive a serious attention.

Agree with vinc on ricochet just delete it. Trickery needs a damage condition trait.
P/D and D/D are issues as well.

You are seriously arguing that some skills are garbage because they’re supposed to be garbage, and so they should stay garbage?

There is no excuse for a skill to be “garbage”. None. Whatsoever. You CANNOT justify it.

Grimwolf.7163:

You are seriously arguing that some skills are garbage because they’re supposed to be garbage, and so they should stay garbage?

Well, let’s explore that a bit. Let’s choose any of the “garbage” traps.

What improvement will make these skills viable for a mobile thief?

And why would you pick this newly improved trap over other better alternatives?

I personally can’t think of anything to use traps unless derping around with it. The fun factor is spot on and it’s golden, but to others outside the fun factor, it’s “garbage”.

Auesis.7301:

There is no excuse for a skill to be “garbage”. None. Whatsoever. You CANNOT justify it.

If course you can. Example, a Nerf© gun is fun, but I surely not going to use it to enforce the law.

EDIT:
overzealous filter

comparing a nerf gun toy not being used as an actual weapon in reality to a class skill not being effective is silly.

Traps could be effective with thief mobility if they were worthwhile, you could set up area’s of traps and using your mobility get the enemy to chase you into them etc etc, they’d also work well for protecting the rear of groups. Thematically it would be great if you could set up traps in a small valley in WvW so when enemy groups walk in they set em off to start a cool ambush but the game, and players, don’t work like that. But traps COULD still be useful, just because a few select skills are currently are way better doesn’t mean anything that isn’t should be dismissed.

If it comes down to it if something is truely that bad then it should be removed and something better take its place, the use of skills should be about choice and what fits best for your build not “well everything else is garbage so I’ll just use this one set regardless”

Saying that its fine to see skills like this is quite literally moronic and if you apply it to skills you may as well apply it to other things and change the whole game, whats that you want to play a thief? sorry but we decided they were garbage/casual you now have to play Mesmer if you want to do this content.

Vincent, no offense, but your response is laughable. Despite the size of your post, you actually managed to fail at making a single good counter-argument, just various repetitions of “sigh” or “it’s fine that it’s broken because I don’t need/want it” that you then tried defending with nonsensical analogies.

Sorry, that’s neither the way to have an enjoyable class nor a game that feels polished. It’s just a terrible approach to game design altogether.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Grimwolf.7163:

You are seriously arguing that some skills are garbage because they’re supposed to be garbage, and so they should stay garbage?

Well, let’s explore that a bit. Let’s choose any of the “garbage” traps.

What improvement will make these skills viable for a mobile thief?

And why would you pick this newly improved trap over other better alternatives?

I personally can’t think of anything to use traps unless derping around with it. The fun factor is spot on and it’s golden, but to others outside the fun factor, it’s “garbage”.

Auesis.7301:

There is no excuse for a skill to be “garbage”. None. Whatsoever. You CANNOT justify it.

If course you can. Example, a Nerf© gun is fun, but I surely not going to use it to enforce the law.

EDIT:
overzealous filter

I’ll say that traps are garbage…I don’t think any of them are good enough to have on my bar over something else. I have tried to make a trap thief and make it work but its vastly out shined by other builds and just not practical imo. I think something that could help would be to allow to use ground targeting to drop them. Add it to the recharge trait or something and that could make them a bit more viable.

Dasorine.1964:

comparing a nerf gun toy not being used as an actual weapon in reality to a class skill not being effective is silly.

It wasn’t a comparison. I simply stated the different things are made for different purpose.

Well, if that doesn’t work for you — will you play around with a loaded gun? Of course not, because there are things that are designed for playing around.

Traps could be effective with thief mobility if they were worthwhile, you could set up area’s of traps and using your mobility get the enemy to chase you into them etc etc, they’d also work well for protecting the rear of groups. Thematically it would be great if you could set up traps in a small valley in WvW so when enemy groups walk in they set em off to start a cool ambush but the game, and players, don’t work like that. But traps COULD still be useful, just because a few select skills are currently are way better doesn’t mean anything that isn’t should be dismissed.

I’m not saying that it should be dismissed, what I said is that it has a different purpose.

You say things like setting up traps, protecting the rear, etc. but all those can be accomplished by one skill – Caltrops.

Would you really bring any of the traps, even if improved, to replace Caltrops?
Or would you bring the traps in addition to Caltrops further hurting your build?

The answer is an obvious “no.”

If it comes down to it if something is truely that bad then it should be removed and something better take its place, the use of skills should be about choice and what fits best for your build not “well everything else is garbage so I’ll just use this one set regardless”

Skill being “garbage” is a subjective issue. But like I said, even if those “garbage” skills are improved, you wouldn’t pick them any way since there will always be a better alternative.

And why replace it if other parts of the game find the skill fun to use?

There is no “garbage” skill in PvE. Even a random build will work.

Saying that its fine to see skills like this is quite literally moronic and if you apply it to skills you may as well apply it to other things and change the whole game, whats that you want to play a thief? sorry but we decided they were garbage/casual you now have to play Mesmer if you want to do this content.

You can call me names or what have you, but to me it is stupid to put effort to change something that is obvious that nobody will ever pick up.

Einlanzer.1627:

Vincent, no offense, but your response is laughable. Despite the size of your post, you actually managed to fail at making a single good counter-argument, just various repetitions of “sigh” or “it’s fine that it’s broken because I don’t need/want it” that you then tried defending with nonsensical analogies.

What are you talking about? I simply stated that some skills are made for certain purpose.

As I stated in my initial post, some skills are for fun, some are for casual, and some are for competitive. Which skills are those are obvious if you give a little effort in educating yourself.

If you don’t get the analogy, then that’s not my problem.

Sorry, that’s neither the way to have an enjoyable class nor a game that feels polished. It’s just a terrible approach to game design altogether.

That’s your personal opinion and many who enjoy P/P + traps in PvE will surely disagree with you based solely on their opinion.

This is why Anet is transitioning to separate PvE, PvP, and WvW because what is fun in one place, it’s not fun in another. What’s garbage skill in one place, it is golden in another.

This is not your game, it’s our game and you just have to live with that just like everybody else.

So… improving something won’t help because somethings already good?

So if traps where all improved in ways that made them better (not just “as good as” as everything really should be) than caltrops you’d still only use caltrops because caltrops has always been ok? that makes no sense…

It’s perfectly fine for something to be completely ineffective and pointless in balance terms, provided that it can be fun sometimes?

I hope Arenanet don’t share that logic.

Einlanzer.1627:

2.). P/P.

3.). Stealth does not drop aggro-

4.) Trick Shot- the recent nerf hit the SB hard, and Trick Shot was already weak before the nerf.

5.) Traps – Ambush is decent, the rest are pretty garbage. Some would say Venoms are too, but at least they have situational uses. These need a buff to be worth eating up a skill slot for.

6.) Pistol Whip – The damage was nerfed because of how broken it was with Haste, even though everyone knew that Haste was the problem and not Pistol Whip. This needs to be reverted.

9.) Last Refuge – Never mind that the trait isn’t very good anyway due to Stealth’s lack of defensive utility, but in many situations it actually screws up theThief’s tempo and often acts more as a curse than a boon.

2) Pistol Pistol needs major revamping of skills/traits.
3) Stealth issue I totally agree with.. I don’t see how you go invisible (meaning they can’t see you) and for example unload/volley continues to track you WHILE YOU"RE INVISIBLE and hit you. Also sucks if they proc Kill shot and you’re out of dodges..
4)Sad what they did to trick shot, hopefully they do something about its activation time/range/damage
5) Traps are not viable at all except for trolling in Jumping Puzzle
6)Pistol whip needs its 15% damage loss back
9) It’s been like that since bw1..

I also hope they increase the damage to Dancing Daggers, since quickness/haste has been nerfed.

Dasorine.1964:

So… improving something won’t help because somethings already good?

So if traps where all improved in ways that made them better (not just “as good as” as everything really should be) than caltrops you’d still only use caltrops because caltrops has always been ok? that makes no sense…

I asked you; pick a trap, improve it, if you’d pick Caltrops over this improved trap, then improve it again, repeat until you’re satisfied. Then make an argument why someone will pick your newly improved traps.

“improved in ways that made them better” is a cowardly approach because you know that the only way of make traps not “garbage” is either make it OP or make Caltrops “garbage” — then you’d pick neither.

Auesis.7301:

It’s perfectly fine for something to be completely ineffective and pointless, provided that it can be fun sometimes?

What kind of rhetoric is that? Misrepresenting what I’ve posted doesn’t make yours look good — it only makes you look dishonest.

I hope Arenanet don’t share that hideous logic.

You speak of logic after committing a fallacy?

Agree with the OP.

As for Vincent… I can’t even begin to comment on how stupid and illogical everything he said has been.

Okamakiri.8746:

Agree with the OP.

As for Vincent… I can’t even begin to comment on how stupid and illogical everything he said has been.

Just because you don’t understand doesn’t make it “stupid and illogical” .

What you just posted is stupid and illogical since you have not posted to support that conclusion.

Issues.5789:

5) Traps are not viable at all except for trolling in Jumping Puzzle

And they said it’s not fun…

“2.). P/P.

It’s a weapon set for fun. If you want damage output, there are obviously better alternatives."

“5.) Traps – Ambush is decent, the rest are pretty garbage.

You need to identify which skills are for fun, which are for casual, and which are for competitive. Then you’ll understand why some skills are perceived to be “garbage”"

lolwut? So the sets that do work are not fun? Fun sets cannot be viable at the same time? It’s ok if something sucks as long as it’s fun? Is it by same logic ok if something is not fun, as long as it doesn’t suck?

You made stupid comments, people called you out on it. You’re now just digging yourself into an even deeper hole trying to justify your earlier stupidity.

Dude, just quit trolling. Nobody agrees with you.

Okamakiri.8746:

“2.). P/P.

It’s a weapon set for fun. If you want damage output, there are obviously better alternatives."

“5.) Traps – Ambush is decent, the rest are pretty garbage.

You need to identify which skills are for fun, which are for casual, and which are for competitive. Then you’ll understand why some skills are perceived to be “garbage”"

lolwut? So the sets that do work are not fun? Fun sets cannot be viable at the same time? It’s ok if something sucks as long as it’s fun? Is it by same logic ok if something is not fun, as long as it doesn’t suck?

You made stupid comments, people called you out on it. You’re now just digging yourself into an even deeper hole trying to justify your earlier stupidity.

Dude, just quit trolling. Nobody agrees with you.

He brings up some valid points, read the rest of what he says. He made 9 points and you commented on 2. If anyone’s trolling here; its you.

HOLY AMEN THIS THREAD.

The only thing I disagree with is the Last Refuge thing. It’s one of our few really great skills, and I always have it on my bar no matter what build I’m using.

Stealth not resetting aggro is my #1 issue here, followed closely by Pistol Whip damage. This is just lazy balance, and guess who suffers for it? The players.

Downed:
I like the downed state, allows to teleport out of AoE’s and other horrors to safer places to be ressed at. Smoke bomb>Heal>Teleport gives some additional seconds of heal, since the tele doesn’t break healing, should have longer range though.

The downed attack is AoE, and hence something standing in your way doesn’t stop you
from attacking the low health target behind it, an issue I had on other classes.

The stealth on underwater downed has to long time until it is usable, and usually
I’m dead or almost dead before I’m able to cast it.

Traps:
Should be buffed.
The thief from ambush trap dies way too quickly.
Tripwire only knocks down 1 target, imo I think it should stay up for about 2-3 seconds after triggered to knock down additional targets that tries to pass it.
Needle trap should immobilize and poison the first target that steps on it as
normally, and for a couple of seconds afterwards cripple and posion additional
targets that walk over it.
Shadow trap is situational and it’s fine as it is, even though it may not be worth
filling an utility slot for.

Caltrops:
Are fine as they are.

Last Refuge
Needs to be fixed to only trigger after casting, and stop additional
auto attack chains to continue.

Issues.5789:

Okamakiri.8746:

“2.). P/P.

It’s a weapon set for fun. If you want damage output, there are obviously better alternatives."

“5.) Traps – Ambush is decent, the rest are pretty garbage.

You need to identify which skills are for fun, which are for casual, and which are for competitive. Then you’ll understand why some skills are perceived to be “garbage”"

lolwut? So the sets that do work are not fun? Fun sets cannot be viable at the same time? It’s ok if something sucks as long as it’s fun? Is it by same logic ok if something is not fun, as long as it doesn’t suck?

You made stupid comments, people called you out on it. You’re now just digging yourself into an even deeper hole trying to justify your earlier stupidity.

Dude, just quit trolling. Nobody agrees with you.

He brings up some valid points, read the rest of what he says. He made 9 points and you commented on 2. If anyone’s trolling here; its you.

I don’t need to analyze every one of his comments to prove a point, those two were bad enough to discredit anything he had to say… and you for supporting him.

Pawstruck.9708:

The only thing I disagree with is the Last Refuge thing. It’s one of our few really great skills, and I always have it on my bar no matter what build I’m using.

You’re talking about Shadow Refuge.

Last Refuge is 5pt minor trait in Shadow Arts line that stealths you automatically when your health reaches 25%.

Okamakiri.8746:

lolwut? So the sets that do work are not fun?

Ah, now I see that the failure here is reading comprehension.

When did I ever say that? That’s your failure to comprehend that lead you to that conclusion.

Fun sets cannot be viable at the same time?

Again, find where I made that statement.

It’s ok if something sucks as long as it’s fun?

Another unsupported conclusion.

Is it by same logic ok if something is not fun, as long as it doesn’t suck?

How many more of these… :/

You made stupid comments, people called you out on it. You’re now just digging yourself into an even deeper hole trying to justify your earlier stupidity.

Yet you failed to show what is this “stupid comments” are.

Dude, just quit trolling. Nobody agrees with you.

You sure about that?

Here’s the logic you failed to grasp;
Situation A – is skill X viable? – No – garbage
Situation B – is skill X viable? – No – garbage
Situation C – is skill X viable? – Yes – golden

Another logic to help you out;
Is skill X made for Situation A? – No – garbage
Is skill X made for Situation B? – No – garbage
Is skill X made for Situation C? – Yes – golden

Now think about it, really hard, and I’m sure you will be able to come to a conclusion who is being stupid and illogical.

Keep digging that hole.

Okamakiri.8746:

Keep digging that hole.

Pssh, I called you on your stupidity and you have nothing to say.

Good.

Ghostwolf.9863:

Traps:
Should be buffed.
The thief from ambush trap dies way too quickly.
Tripwire only knocks down 1 target, imo I think it should stay up for about 2-3 seconds after triggered to knock down additional targets that tries to pass it.
Needle trap should immobilize and poison the first target that steps on it as
normally, and for a couple of seconds afterwards cripple and posion additional
targets that walk over it.

I doubt that they will make changes to these any time soon, but I like the lingering effects after they trigger. Tripwire would be a really funny skill to use — might as well change it to Marbles Trap. :P

In my opinion as a PvE/dungeon player only, the OP has hit it spot on. I agree with everything on the list and actually don’t have anything else that I would like to add to it. If these changes were made, I would find the class much more enjoyable to play and would have many more build possibilities open to me.

agree on theives’ ranged options, traps, even venoms.

anet have been saying for so long they wanted more diversified,
efficiently viable builds for us, but what they’re doing right now
is the opposite.

there are a lot of skills that might see action in pvp,
but you would almost see never being used in pve, due to the
inherent difference of the gameplay types. simply letting them stay
that way is bad game design, and further shows their bias against
the class.

they might have a more insightful view if they have a person
maining only a specific class for the balancing team,
secretly playing with regular people to see how much theives
are actually shunned against in parties for high-lvl fracs/ ect.
part of the reason as much is that a lot of our skills are subpar
compared to other classes pve-wise.

.

You know what the sad thing about this is OP? Arena net will probably change 1/9 of these things in the next two months. Then you can quote me to say I was right.

Seven Dreamsong.9802:

agree on theives’ ranged options, traps, even venoms.

anet have been saying for so long they wanted more diversified,
efficiently viable builds for us, but what they’re doing right now
is the opposite.

Unfortunately for us, our profession has been stashed in the basement crawling with bugs. I would rather see them exterminate the bugs first.

there are a lot of skills that might see action in pvp,
but you would almost see never being used in pve, due to the
inherent difference of the gameplay types. simply letting them stay
that way is bad game design, and further shows their bias against
the class.

It seems that’s what diversity is. You bring one build in PvP and another in PvE. If the same build is viable in both cases, that’s actually not promoting diversity.

they might have a more insightful view if they have a person
maining only a specific class for the balancing team,
secretly playing with regular people to see how much theives
are actually shunned against in parties for high-lvl fracs/ ect.
part of the reason as much is that a lot of our skills are subpar
compared to other classes pve-wise.

.

Yeah this has been suggested many times before. No one in their balance team shares our pain and suffering that’s why we get fixes like SB arrow not homing without fixing the arrow speed and fire rate. :/

Okamakiri.8746:

“2.). P/P.

It’s a weapon set for fun. If you want damage output, there are obviously better alternatives."

“5.) Traps – Ambush is decent, the rest are pretty garbage.

You need to identify which skills are for fun, which are for casual, and which are for competitive. Then you’ll understand why some skills are perceived to be “garbage”"

lolwut? So the sets that do work are not fun? Fun sets cannot be viable at the same time? It’s ok if something sucks as long as it’s fun? Is it by same logic ok if something is not fun, as long as it doesn’t suck?

You made stupid comments, people called you out on it. You’re now just digging yourself into an even deeper hole trying to justify your earlier stupidity.

Dude, just quit trolling. Nobody agrees with you.

so thief has 3 competitve utilities? ….odd. every thief runs the same 3….other than a 4th which is generally used just to run and switched out b4 battle. p/p is no good even in pve….same with traps….ambush is useable but not gr8

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I asked you; pick a trap, improve it, if you’d pick Caltrops over this improved trap, then improve it again, repeat until you’re satisfied. Then make an argument why someone will pick your newly improved traps.

“improved in ways that made them better” is a cowardly approach because you know that the only way of make traps not “garbage” is either make it OP or make Caltrops “garbage” — then you’d pick neither.

Actually you didn’t you just stated why would you take traps when caltrops already does what you’d want traps for.

The point is, if they were improved to be on par then you’d potentially take them for the different effects they’d have over caltrops just like any skill choice SHOULD be.

There should be effective multiple choices for most situations with the ideal skill varying depending on build and playstyle.

For example, Caltrops currently is the best/only real area denial tool we have, it is great for spreading people away, slowing them down and applying some hefty bleeds.

For 10 seconds it will disuade people from that area and slow them down giving you a decent escape help and some decent group fight presence.

However it has its faults, its cast on the thieves location and the duration starts the moment its cast meaning unless the thief is in the middle of the players theres a chance that a lot of the duration is wasted. Its effectiveness greatly drops the moment they dodge roll out and if your not condition built.

Now take Needle trap, this trap could be great for exactly those situations.

Improvements: Needle trap is now a decently sized circle instead of a singular line, On activation the trap is active for 5 seconds and hits everyone (upto 5 people as all aoe’s) in the area, it applies 1s immobilize every second, it applies 2 seconds of poison every second and deals direct damage every second (more than currently).

This takes it from a single line that hits a single person for 3s immobilize and poisons them while doing a singular hit of damage to an area containment tool. It won’t disuade people from the area instead it will keep those it hit stuck there much better than caltrops allowing for a better escape from those or more effective containtment.

The bleed damage is lost for poisons debuff to the healing power however it deals direct damage in addition to the potential for traiting to give it weakness as well.

Because its active time isn’t from when cast but when triggered the thief looses non of its effectiveness by utilizing it before the encounter or when running.

Con’s are of course that its duration is shorter, the damage potential is smaller due to the bleeds vs poison.

They would both be good picks, they’d both have builds that would have a preference over the other and both have certain situations where they are the clear choice, however overall their utility is very similiar to the point where unless you’ve specifically traited or built in a way that makes one that much better than the other they’d become a preference.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ghostwolf.9863:

Traps:
Should be buffed.
The thief from ambush trap dies way too quickly.
Tripwire only knocks down 1 target, imo I think it should stay up for about 2-3 seconds after triggered to knock down additional targets that tries to pass it.
Needle trap should immobilize and poison the first target that steps on it as
normally, and for a couple of seconds afterwards cripple and posion additional
targets that walk over it.

I doubt that they will make changes to these any time soon, but I like the lingering effects after they trigger. Tripwire would be a really funny skill to use — might as well change it to Marbles Trap. :P

Well trip wire for example could quite possibly become the thief’s line of warding, sure it wouldn’t have as much stopping power (if they just gave it a duration rather than a use which would really help all the thief traps) but with stuff like the trait that would give them all stacks of vulnerability and maybe some additional tweaks it would probably become a solid choice for the troll/zerg thief at the very least.

Dasorine.1964:

The point is, if they were improved to be on par then you’d potentially take them for the different effects they’d have over caltrops just like any skill choice SHOULD be.

There should be effective multiple choices for most situations with the ideal skill varying depending on build and playstyle.

For example, Caltrops currently is the best/only real area denial tool we have, it is great for spreading people away, slowing them down and applying some hefty bleeds.

For 10 seconds it will disuade people from that area and slow them down giving you a decent escape help and some decent group fight presence.

However it has its faults, its cast on the thieves location and the duration starts the moment its cast meaning unless the thief is in the middle of the players theres a chance that a lot of the duration is wasted. Its effectiveness greatly drops the moment they dodge roll out and if your not condition built.

Now take Needle trap, this trap could be great for exactly those situations.

Improvements: Needle trap is now a decently sized circle instead of a singular line, On activation the trap is active for 5 seconds and hits everyone (upto 5 people as all aoe’s) in the area, it applies 1s immobilize every second, it applies 2 seconds of poison every second and deals direct damage every second (more than currently).

This takes it from a single line that hits a single person for 3s immobilize and poisons them while doing a singular hit of damage to an area containment tool. It won’t disuade people from the area instead it will keep those it hit stuck there much better than caltrops allowing for a better escape from those or more effective containtment.

The bleed damage is lost for poisons debuff to the healing power however it deals direct damage in addition to the potential for traiting to give it weakness as well.

Because its active time isn’t from when cast but when triggered the thief looses non of its effectiveness by utilizing it before the encounter or when running.

Con’s are of course that its duration is shorter, the damage potential is smaller due to the bleeds vs poison.

They would both be good picks, they’d both have builds that would have a preference over the other and both have certain situations where they are the clear choice, however overall their utility is very similiar to the point where unless you’ve specifically traited or built in a way that makes one that much better than the other they’d become a preference.

You realize how OP that is right? Just as I mentioned, the only way to make traps not “garbage” is if you improve it to be over powered.

There are so many things that this improved trap can be abused and when it has it’s 15 minutes of fame, it’s get nerfed back to being “garbage” again.

The weakness of Caltrops in your scenario is what makes it balance. Your improvement on the Needle Trap can be abused if coupled with Shadow Step due to traps’ almost instant cast time. Using this trap guarantees Dagger Storm to be an ultimate killing machine since the foes are immobilized in a circular area.

But I see what you’re saying, unfortunately this is the only way to make Needle Trap attractive when it is changed to be overpowered. Any thing less than this will keep it in the “garbage” bin.

I don’t see how its “over” powered, yes a potential 5s immobilize on 5 people is potentially very powerful but nothing stops them cleansing then rolling out between applications you could make that easier by increasing the immobs duration but slowing pulse rate so 2s immob every 2 seconds instead so people get easier time to flee or alternate between pulses of immob and cripple, which might actually be more useful as then you cycle through different people as others escape allowing it to effect more etc etc.

But heck lets say that even if it doesn’t hit full potential all the time it turns out to be too powerful you could tone it down to levels that other similiar skills have which are generally 1-2s immob on the people as it goes off and then cripple pulses after that, you could then up the duration to match those other skills, would still be useful as a caltrops alternative, it would then basically become a direct damage variant of caltrops with the added utility of that initial immobilize and faster cast at the cost of slightly less damage maybe base damage and of course in stealth utility.

Theres lots of give and take but heck if you really really really wanted to you could just copy and paste caltrops on to it but make slight changes, it would be a boring copy paste but the slight difference (cast time/application method etc) would still give enough variation in use that they become a choice.

And theres also the simple fact that if they managed to improve them onto a decent power level that could be compared to say caltrops where its neither OP or UP then what exactly would stop you thinking of using them? I mean other than the thought that its utterly impossible to balance 2 similiar functioning skills to around the same power? (even if my sleep deprived hastily written idea didn’t manage it and im not trying to bash you I just don’t really understand why you feel it would only ever be one extreme or the other.)

while its true that there are optimal build / weapon sets for pve/pvp;
the unbalance within a specific gameplay type for thieves is quite large,
that there is a side effect of an observable ‘flavor of the months’,
more prevalent than other jobs.

for example, when playing my warrior, guard, ect., i honestly feel that i have
more choices for dungeon builds that are quite efficiently viable unlike
when i play my thief, where it would usually be a limited forced choice on
whatever anet didn’t beat up badly with the nerfstick yet.

it hurts moreso when you’re really a main thief player for whatever reason,
even if you could easily get into groups by switching to your other chars.

.

@Dasorine.1964
The major difference is, this new improved trap immobilizing player is what makes it overpowered not the damage. Compare to Caltrops, they can just roll out of the way if someone else is trying to AoE them down. But if they’re immobilized, it requires them to pop a cleanse just so they can roll out of the way. That extra requirement just to get away is what makes it imbalanced.

You can cripple a large number of people (meaning > 1), but you cannot immobilize them without crossing the OP line. Even more so when the cripple pulse every 1-2s. You just can’t cleanse that often or fast enough.

The traps are balanced in term of power level as it is now, but it has to be better than balance to actually see play.

I like the idea of lingering effect, but I highly doubt that it’ll ever happen.

well AoE immobilizes already exist upto I think around 3 second unbuffed durations, but yeah the whole point would be the downsides would balance it out and there would be other balances within the mechanics (such as possibly increasing the immob time but lowering pulse rate to allow for easier cleanse and roll out etc)

Currently traps just aren’t that strong they seem to have a strange mix of balancing, I mean the effects each do tend to be on par of what other people can achieve with AoE variants including cooldowns and such but they are all single use single target.

Its perfectly feasible that they’d be able to be increased upto levels to match at least the other sets of traps and such and I see no real problem with them being able to be made equal to other skills that do similar effects other than the effort it would require on Anets side to do something truly positive for thieves.

We also need to keep in mind that we want these to function as traps, not like Necro ’s wells and marks – there also lies the challenge.

In GW1, traps has a long cast time (2s) and they are interruptible, which makes them viable and balanced, even if they have high damage (multiple of the same trap) and effect and very low cooldown.

I don’t think any of those balancing conditions will work in GW2, that’s why I’m not optimistic into seeing any significant changes to traps any time soon.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Seven Dreamsong.9802:

there are a lot of skills that might see action in pvp,
but you would almost see never being used in pve, due to the
inherent difference of the gameplay types. simply letting them stay
that way is bad game design, and further shows their bias against
the class.

It seems that’s what diversity is. You bring one build in PvP and another in PvE. If the same build is viable in both cases, that’s actually not promoting diversity.

That is explicitly not what their design goal is. Their design goal is to make skills as equally usable as possible and to discourage cookie-cutter builds in all modes of play while promoting build diversity through working to ensure that every single weapon set/skill has fairly broad usability. Justifying the weakness of a set or a skill by saying “it’s just meant for fun” is not acceptable, neither in the view of most players nor in the context of Anets own design philosophy.

That’s why the list above needs to be addressed.

Einlanzer.1627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Seven Dreamsong.9802:

there are a lot of skills that might see action in pvp,
but you would almost see never being used in pve, due to the
inherent difference of the gameplay types. simply letting them stay
that way is bad game design, and further shows their bias against
the class.

It seems that’s what diversity is. You bring one build in PvP and another in PvE. If the same build is viable in both cases, that’s actually not promoting diversity.

That is explicitly not what their design goal is. Their design goal is to make skills as equally usable as possible and to discourage cookie-cutter builds in all modes of play while promoting build diversity through working to ensure that every single weapon set/skill has fairly broad usability. Justifying the weakness of a set or a skill by saying “it’s just meant for fun” is not acceptable, neither in the view of most players nor in the context of Anets own design philosophy.

Whether it is equally useable or not, it will still promote cookie-cutter build because the fact is, not one build will be viable everywhere. There will always be that optimized build that everybody will run with in certain situations.

The build I’m running now is good in WvW and PvE, but I sure not going to bring it in PvP.

That’s why the list above needs to be addressed.

I agree with some of them, but we don’t need to get all worked up and angry when they’re not addressed any time soon. The reasons are the ones being discussed in this thread.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Einlanzer.1627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Seven Dreamsong.9802:

there are a lot of skills that might see action in pvp,
but you would almost see never being used in pve, due to the
inherent difference of the gameplay types. simply letting them stay
that way is bad game design, and further shows their bias against
the class.

It seems that’s what diversity is. You bring one build in PvP and another in PvE. If the same build is viable in both cases, that’s actually not promoting diversity.

That is explicitly not what their design goal is. Their design goal is to make skills as equally usable as possible and to discourage cookie-cutter builds in all modes of play while promoting build diversity through working to ensure that every single weapon set/skill has fairly broad usability. Justifying the weakness of a set or a skill by saying “it’s just meant for fun” is not acceptable, neither in the view of most players nor in the context of Anets own design philosophy.

Whether it is equally useable or not, it will still promote cookie-cutter build because the fact is, not one build will be viable everywhere. There will always be that optimized build that everybody will run with in certain situations.

The build I’m running now is good in WvW and PvE, but I sure not going to bring it in PvP.

That’s why the list above needs to be addressed.

I agree with some of them, but we don’t need to get all worked up and angry when they’re not addressed any time soon. The reasons are the ones being discussed in this thread.

I think it depends a bit on the issue. Some (even within my list) are more critical and consequently irritating than others, and on many of these the solution is both very obvious and very simple.

P/P is a great example- 90% of P/P’s problem lies in the inequality that exists between Vital Shot and Unload. Unload needs a slight buff, then Vital Shot needs a significant buff so that it’s only slightly less DPS than Unload. This would change the entire dynamic of the set in a positive way- Unload would behave properly as a tactical option rather than an absolute necessity, which would then open up the other skills on the set and allow you to properly benefit from the utility it offers without instantly cratering your DPS.

Einlanzer.1627:

I think it depends a bit on the issue. Some (even within my list) are more critical and consequently irritating than others, and on many of these the solution is both very obvious and very simple.

P/P is a great example- 90% of P/P’s problem lies in the inequality that exists between Vital Shot and Unload. Unload needs a slight buff, then Vital Shot needs a significant buff so that it’s only slightly less DPS than Unload. This would change the entire dynamic of the set in a positive way- Unload would behave properly as a tactical option rather than an absolute necessity, which would then open up the other skills on the set and allow you to properly benefit from the utility it offers without instantly cratering your DPS.

P/x and SB have the same issue when it comes to auto-attacks. Thieves have this added pre-cast animation (that’s when the thief takes an aim before shooting) which is visually great but functionally flawed. They also suffer with the problem about skills hanging up or delayed — same problem I notice with Eng’s Mortar — that’s making our slow fire rate functions even worse.

If they fix that, we can accurately assess where the weapon sets are really lacking.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Would you really bring any of the traps, even if improved, to replace Caltrops?
Or would you bring the traps in addition to Caltrops further hurting your build?

Hell yeah. I’d bring Tripwire or Ambush trap. There are niches for that skill specifically, one of which was the Spirit watch map at which I rather Tripwire a dam lot of the time, since it wont trigger until they come at it, wont disappear 10s after I dropped it unless triggered and it disables skill usage and can force a stunbreak where Caltrops won’t. On top of it being invisible. Best skill in game? No but it has niches, it should be broadened mind you and many times there are better choices but in terms of Traps vs Caltrops? That’s an easy justification.
2 traps block out dodging where Caltrops does not. Tripwire blocks out all skills where Caltrops does not. Ambush trap melee, brings out a scorpion wire which has clear benefits over caltrops and as a npc if not killed will pursue them, where Caltrops can be walked around and ignored.

Traps perfect or ideal? Eh not really Vs caltrops? Are you even serious. You can compare any trap vs Caltrops and have a reason to use it their different to the point of having seperate niches they excel in allowing you to clearly justify one over the other. In addition neither Trops or traps are strong to the point of bringing one over the other being so peculiar where as choosing Needle trap over Shadowstep is very strange.

ensoriki.5789:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Would you really bring any of the traps, even if improved, to replace Caltrops?
Or would you bring the traps in addition to Caltrops further hurting your build?

Hell yeah. I’d bring Tripwire or Ambush trap. There are niches for that skill specifically, one of which was the Spirit watch map at which I rather Tripwire a dam lot of the time, since it wont trigger until they come at it, wont disappear 10s after I dropped it unless triggered and it disables skill usage and can force a stunbreak where Caltrops won’t. On top of it being invisible. Best skill in game? No but it has niches, it should be broadened mind you and many times there are better choices but in terms of Traps vs Caltrops? That’s an easy justification.
2 traps block out dodging where Caltrops does not. Tripwire blocks out all skills where Caltrops does not. Ambush trap melee, brings out a scorpion wire which has clear benefits over caltrops and as a npc if not killed will pursue them, where Caltrops can be walked around and ignored.

Traps perfect or ideal? Eh not really Vs caltrops? Are you even serious. You can compare any trap vs Caltrops and have a reason to use it their different to the point of having seperate niches they excel in allowing you to clearly justify one over the other. In addition neither Trops or traps are strong to the point of bringing one over the other being so peculiar where as choosing Needle trap over Shadowstep is very strange.

It seems that you are not on the same page as we were when we are discussing the difference within the context of our discussion.

But here’s the main difference why Caltrops is better than traps; Caltrops has a circular area of effect and have a lingering effect — traps does not and often affects only one target.

Then you can read the rest of the discussion because I don’t feel like repeating myself.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Einlanzer.1627:

I think it depends a bit on the issue. Some (even within my list) are more critical and consequently irritating than others, and on many of these the solution is both very obvious and very simple.

P/P is a great example- 90% of P/P’s problem lies in the inequality that exists between Vital Shot and Unload. Unload needs a slight buff, then Vital Shot needs a significant buff so that it’s only slightly less DPS than Unload. This would change the entire dynamic of the set in a positive way- Unload would behave properly as a tactical option rather than an absolute necessity, which would then open up the other skills on the set and allow you to properly benefit from the utility it offers without instantly cratering your DPS.

P/x and SB have the same issue when it comes to auto-attacks. Thieves have this added pre-cast animation (that’s when the thief takes an aim before shooting) which is visually great but functionally flawed. They also suffer with the problem about skills hanging up or delayed — same problem I notice with Eng’s Mortar — that’s making our slow fire rate functions even worse.

If they fix that, we can accurately assess where the weapon sets are really lacking.

Yes, I’ve been a staunch crusader of that exact issue for months now (which is actually widespread and affects almost all ranged weapons besides Rifle and Ranger shortbow) and have argued ad nauseum that the fire rate on both Vital Shot and Trick Shot needs to be fixed so we can get an accurate assessment of how the sets perform in general.

I specifically mentioned in in both the P/P and Trick Shot parts of my original post.

Ghostwolf.9863:

Downed:
I like the downed state, allows to teleport out of AoE’s and other horrors to safer places to be ressed at. Smoke bomb>Heal>Teleport gives some additional seconds of heal, since the tele doesn’t break healing, should have longer range though.

The downed attack is AoE, and hence something standing in your way doesn’t stop you
from attacking the low health target behind it, an issue I had on other classes.

The stealth on underwater downed has to long time until it is usable, and usually
I’m dead or almost dead before I’m able to cast it.

Traps:
Should be buffed.
The thief from ambush trap dies way too quickly.
Tripwire only knocks down 1 target, imo I think it should stay up for about 2-3 seconds after triggered to knock down additional targets that tries to pass it.
Needle trap should immobilize and poison the first target that steps on it as
normally, and for a couple of seconds afterwards cripple and posion additional
targets that walk over it.
Shadow trap is situational and it’s fine as it is, even though it may not be worth
filling an utility slot for.

Caltrops:
Are fine as they are.

Last Refuge
Needs to be fixed to only trigger after casting, and stop additional
auto attack chains to continue.

i think shadow trap could be really great if it worked like a mesmer’s portal (for a one time only though), and teleported people around the thief like a pbaoe or something

Add Broken Combo Projectiles and Broken Shadow Protector Trait.

also Caltrops don’t need more nerfs considering how fast/easy other classes can spam bleed. Such as Warrior.

Doggie.3184:

Add Broken Combo Projectiles and Broken Shadow Protector Trait.

also Caltrops don’t need more nerfs considering how fast/easy other classes can spam bleed. Such as Warrior.

The problem is not that Thieves get too many bleeds, it’s that they are too reliant on Caltrops to get those bleeds. Caltrops are a bit OP for a standard utility skill, while the bleed stacking should be improved on other skills like Vital Shot (it only stacks up to 5-6 bleeds without a condition build while most other bleed #1s get 7-9).

My problem with Caltrops is that in PvE at least I feel I’m gimping myself if I’m not using it, which should not be how the utility skills work. They should all be close enough to on par with one another that you actually have genuine choices to make.