Guild Wars 2

Let’s be honest here, a majority of our dual skills are poorly designed. I’m just going to get right into it.

D/P – Shadow Shot – One of 2 perfectly designed dual skill we have. 4 init, blind/gap closer/decent damage. I wouldnt change a thing. (Edit: For those too lazy to read the entire threat, it’s been pointed out to me that the short duration root after teleporting to your target makes this ability pretty meh – I admit I forgot about that. The design is very well thought out for this ability, they just need to change the momentary root on hit)

P/D – Shadow Strike – Does exactly what its supposed to. Part of me wishes it added something (cripple, burn, blind), even if the init cost went up, but I’m no playtester, so its probably just personal bias.

S/P – Pistol Whip – Pistol whip is pretty good, but there are small problems which are causing ALOT of complaints in the community. Design wise, pistol whip is pretty solid – it hits marginally harder than your 3 swing auto-attack, stuns for interupts, and evades (since you’re rooted in place). The problem comes when, unless your target is rooted/snared, they can literally walk out of the last 2 swings. Yes, you could run venoms or traps or something to make sure the last 2 swings (4 total hits) connect, but thats alot of investment for 1 ability. Thieves remedy this by running Haste, so you can actually hit all your attacks with pistol whip, which leads to glass cannon burst specs, and endless forum QQ. I dont really have a suggestion to fix it, and tbh, its functional, and not nearly in as bad of shape as the next 3 abilities.

S/D – Flanking strike – As an idea, I love flanking strike. In execution, its awful. Cant be used effectively on a moving target (who stands still in pvp?) and will swing you around to the front of your target if used while in the rear arc. Silly. Just change it so that the first strike triggers a shadowstep to the targets rear arc, that way you still have to be in melee to use it, and it works as intended.

Now for the real stinkers.

D/D – Deathblossom – The ability itself is fine, it just has no place in D/D. Everything else in D/D is about direct damage, why is there an expensive, poor Direct Damage bleed attack sitting in the middle of my hotbar? if you’re building around deathblossom, your stacking condition damage, which means Most of your hotbar is useless or underpowered. HS and your autoattack do kitten damage, and CnD changes from “setup for the kill” to “stealth on demand” button. Dancing dagger is largely unaffected.

P/P – Unload – Exactly the same as Deathblossom. Its all condition/utility/support, and right in the middle of my hotbar I have a longish cast Direct Damage ability? Who’s running Pistol/Pistol with a ton of power and crit?

The simple solution is to switch the 2. Make D/D dual skill a succession of quick, light damage stabs, intended to do good damage on lightly armored targets, and be increasingly less effective as your targets armor goes up (this gives D/D a nice way to unload poisons too). Give P/P a long cast 3 shot that stacks a condition different than bleed – burning or confusion IMO.

Now, my suggestions might be off – as I said, I’m not a playtester and of course I’m a bit biased, playing a thief. Perhaps a different road should be taken to fix the abilities, but i feel my analysis of whats wrong with Flanking strike, Deathblossom, and Unload is spot on. Any chance we can see the Dev’s weigh in on this?

edit: Clarified some language, added some info to shadow shot.

You got the main issue right.
D/D is direct damage and should not have a condition-based dual skill, similarly P/P should stack conditions.
DB and Unload basically need their effects swapped to be viable with their weapon’s playstyle.

I hope to hear devs on this too.

Sorry, since all I really do is PvP, I didnt think about mentioning that all of my observations are from a PvP POV. I Don’t PvE, and I imagine my issues with flanking strike and pistol whip are less prevalent there. They’re still a bit of an issue in PvP though, and the DB and Unload points still stand, even in PvE.

Red Falcon.8257:

You got the main issue right.
D/D is direct damage and should not have a condition-based dual skill, similarly P/P should stack conditions.
DB and Unload basically need their effects swapped to be viable with their weapon’s playstyle.

I hope to hear devs on this too.

Fully agree here.

Well here is a few things:

I suggested in quite a few threads that Death Blossom and Heartseeker be switched. Making heartseeker the Dagger/Dagger dual skill and DB the dagger Main hand #2. Also giving Deathblossom the Combo finisher (trading the leap distances wouldnt hurt either)

This would open up more unique and fluid options.
Think Dagger/Pistol. If someone wants to use a condition build and use backstab as their secondary damage, now they can, and vice versa.
EX: Black Powder -> Death Blossom (=stealth AND behind the target) -> Backstab (=profit?)

Cloak and dagger. Misses a lot, mainly because it requires you to be literally in kissing range of the target (not arms length). Unless you use a targeted shadowstep before hand; If the target move an inch, it misses. If either you OR the target is experiencing latency, it misses. If the target sneezes it misses. This should not be the case for such initiative cost. I say bump the range to 200-250ish.

Sword+Pistol:
#1a Issue here is Pistol Whip. As a class designed around high mobility, Having a self root on ANY ability makes you wonder what kittentail of drugs the develop was using when they added that. Id sacrifice some damage any day of the week for the removal of the self root. Removing the self root would probably also mean removal of the stun and prob changing it to a daze.

#1b Issue here is Animation/Attack speed. Sword abilities are far too slow, again for a class built around mobility (Strike 2 devs). Obviously it should swing slower then dagger because of the increased damage and AE arc capability, but NOT that slow.
A nerf of quickness across the board for all classes, which is the main cause for below nominal TTK (even if sporadic), would at the same time open up a buff to sword speed without breaking balance. It needs to be at a half way point between CURRENT sword speed and dagger speed. (this is for #1 and PW obv).

P/P/Unload.
Just remove the bleed, and make it cause a short duration chill and a long duration weakness. With like a 5-10% overall damage increase.

S/D/Flanking Strike.
Just have Flanking strike shadow step behind the target and evade while doing it. Increasing the damage a tad wouldn’t hurt either. It IS supposed to be the dual skill after all.

In the case of D/D that skill is at least not as kittenome make it out to be. Taking Rampagers Amulet raises condition damage and Critical chance a lot but has less Critical damage than Berserkers. But it’s actually a decent trade-off because with higher critical chance you still do increased damage anyway but you get the condition damage to boot. That’s what I use anyway.

The problem with P/P isn’t Unload. P/P should be our ranged burst, and Shortbow should be our ranged condition damage. We shouldn’t have two ranged condition damage weapons. One of them will be redundant while the other will be the only one that’s used (as is currently why shortbow is the one used by most).

P/P’s issue is with its basic attack and Body Shot. Body Shot takes far too long, and its vulnerability is short. It’s basically unusable in PVP and PVE. The other classes can put longer vulnerability on in shorter time. It only really benefits Unload, and you’d barely get Unload out in the vulnerability time. The basic attack is also pretty poor, since half of its damage is outright while the other half is through bleed. This is a poor design idea in itself. You can’t build right for it without also building wrong for it. It needs to deal all of its damage outright. Even as is, Body Shot only works for Unload, and Unload only works if you build pure DPS. Something needs changed, and it’s not Unload. The Off-hand Pistol attacks are fine, though.

As for D/D, Death Blossom is pretty good in PVE. It makes Condition Damage melee thief good, especially in PVE. I wouldn’t mind a change, but it’s not really necessary.

As for Flanking Strike, I agree. It’s just not a viable attack in PVP, and it’s pretty lackluster in PVE too.

evilapprentice.6379:

The simple solution is to switch the 2. Make D/D dual skill a succession of quick, light damage stabs

Well death blossom was actually an attack in GW1 that was just good AoE direct damage, and I think this is a good direction to go with it, not just a flurry of blows on a single target.

As for the P/P skill, I’d like to see a little AoE on that as well. perhaps a splinter-shot deal where you shoot once with each pistol and each shot splits to 2 targets on contact, causing a decent burn on the primary target and a very short burn on the secondary targets. It would be a total of two hits and a decent burn on the primary target, and either two hits and a somewhat short burn on one secondary target or one hit and an even shorter burn each on two secondary targets, depending on what’s in range.

edit: It’s worth noting that the damage on secondary targets with death blossom in GW1 ignored armor and wasn’t direct strikes, so everything hinged on hitting the primary target without missing.

Krathalos.3461:

The problem with P/P isn’t Unload. P/P should be our ranged burst, and Shortbow should be our ranged condition damage. We shouldn’t have two ranged condition damage weapons. One of them will be redundant while the other will be the only one that’s used (as is currently why shortbow is the one used by most).

P/P’s issue is with its basic attack and Body Shot. Body Shot takes far too long, and its vulnerability is short. It’s basically unusable in PVP and PVE. The other classes can put longer vulnerability on in shorter time. It only really benefits Unload, and you’d barely get Unload out in the vulnerability time. The basic attack is also pretty poor, since half of its damage is outright while the other half is through bleed. This is a poor design idea in itself. You can’t build right for it without also building wrong for it. It needs to deal all of its damage outright. Even as is, Body Shot only works for Unload, and Unload only works if you build pure DPS. Something needs changed, and it’s not Unload. The Off-hand Pistol attacks are fine, though.

As for D/D, Death Blossom is pretty good in PVE. It makes Condition Damage melee thief good, especially in PVE. I wouldn’t mind a change, but it’s not really necessary.

As for Flanking Strike, I agree. It’s just not a viable attack in PVP, and it’s pretty lackluster in PVE too.

I’m not saying Deathblossom is a bad ability, it just has no place in D/D – If you spec power, DB is worthless. if you spec condition, your autoattack and Heartseeker are worthless, and CnD becomes a “gain stealth” ability, rather than a vulnerability/set up your target ability.

Also, Pistol and Bow are pretty different – Bow is purely AoE conditions. If you get rid of pistol as a conditions weapon, thief will have no viable Single target condition builds. IMO, Unload need to change to a condition ability.

bwillb.2165:

evilapprentice.6379:

The simple solution is to switch the 2. Make D/D dual skill a succession of quick, light damage stabs

Well death blossom was actually an attack in GW1 that was just good AoE direct damage, and I think this is a good direction to go with it, not just a flurry of blows on a single target.

As for the P/P skill, I’d like to see a little AoE on that as well. perhaps a splinter-shot deal where you shoot once with each pistol and each shot splits to 2 targets on contact, causing a decent burn on the primary target and a very short burn on the secondary targets. It would be a total of two hits and a decent burn on the primary target, and either two hits and a somewhat short burn on one secondary target or one hit and an even shorter burn each on two secondary targets, depending on what’s in range.

Maybe – my suggestions are just my 2 cents. The main point of this post is for D/D and P/P’s dual skills to match the rest of the entire kittening skillset, rather than just be abilities no one uses (or builds their entire spec to use, in the case of DB condition damage).

This threads always ends up with Direct Damage thieves wanting even more damage than they already have at the expense of Condition thieves.

No.

You don’t need viable single target conditions when you have AoE conditions that accomplish the same thing. You also have poisons. Death Blossom is also more of our single target condition attack, but it can also deal AoE.

I’d prefer Death Blossom to deal outright damage and have less of an initiative cost (so that it would be better utility rather than conditions), but it works as is if you build around it.

We just don’t need another ranged condition weapon. We need one that actually benefits from a DPS build. Right now, we just have shortbow and its utility. If you’re a condition spec, Short bow is better than it is for a pure damage spec.

Krathalos.3461:

You don’t need viable single target conditions when you have AoE conditions that accomplish the same thing. You also have poisons. Death Blossom is also more of our single target condition attack, but it can also deal AoE.

I’d prefer Death Blossom to deal outright damage and have less of an initiative cost (so that it would be better utility rather than conditions), but it works as is if you build around it.

We just don’t need another ranged condition weapon. We need one that actually benefits from a DPS build. Right now, we just have shortbow and its utility. If you’re a condition spec, Short bow is better than it is for a pure damage spec.

I run a condition spec right now, and trust me, the bow does not do the pistol’s job – If you need someone to die as a condition build, you’re using your pistol. If you’re supporting in a group fight, you use your bow. The bow -does not- do the pistols job.

LiuliRenai.3928:

This threads always ends up with Direct Damage thieves wanting even more damage than they already have at the expense of Condition thieves.

No.

Fail on every count – I’m a condition thief who wants my abilities to make sense. I’m sorry that you like your DB build, but its silly that of your 5 weapon skills, 2 are completely useless, and 1 is severly underused – DB is the ONLY WAY you can do damage.

The bow doesn’t do the pistol’s job, no, because the bow isn’t single target purely. The short bow, however, is a viable option as an offhand due to utility and being based off conditions. D/D is the main weapon for condition builds. P/P has no role right now because its role is outclassed. If you’re building condition damage, you’re not so fragile that you can’t dish out in melee, so D/D with DB shines. The issue with P/P is it doesn’t have a job right now. If you’re running conditions and really want to use pistol, just use P/D. It does the job while having a reliable stealth to use the Pistol’s great stealth attack.

P/P has the ability to become a primary weapon if it became burst. However, as it stands, P/P lacks both conditions and outright damage to be built either way, and bringing it to condition isn’t really a fix. It will still be kept in the back, with D/D and Shortbow being used more often.

P/P = no role, P/D = ranged, single target condition, Short bow = ranged, aoe conditions with sustained damage, D/D = burst single target or aoe condition, D/P = single target utility, S/P = burst, aoe, S/D = aoe, utility (which it kind of fails at tbh)

We’re missing a proper ranged burst weapon, and P/P could actually be it. It needs a complete rework in order for P/P to be a proper burst damage, though. If you remove Vital Shot’s bleed, P/D becomes less of a single target condition weapon. Body Shot needs changed completely.

I don’t have a problem with the design of any of the dual skills. They’re all very well designed and do a great job fitting into their respective sets.

There are a few power concerns here and there, but nothing about the design of any of these skills needs to change.

Krathalos.3461:

The bow doesn’t do the pistol’s job, no, because the bow isn’t single target purely. The short bow, however, is a viable option as an offhand due to utility and being based off conditions. D/D is the main weapon for condition builds. P/P has no role right now because its role is outclassed. If you’re building condition damage, you’re not so fragile that you can’t dish out in melee, so D/D with DB shines. The issue with P/P is it doesn’t have a job right now. If you’re running conditions and really want to use pistol, just use P/D. It does the job while having a reliable stealth to use the Pistol’s great stealth attack.

P/P has the ability to become a primary weapon if it became burst. However, as it stands, P/P lacks both conditions and outright damage to be built either way, and bringing it to condition isn’t really a fix. It will still be kept in the back, with D/D and Shortbow being used more often.

P/P = no role, P/D = ranged, single target condition, Short bow = ranged, aoe conditions with sustained damage, D/D = burst single target or aoe condition, D/P = single target utility, S/P = burst, aoe, S/D = aoe, utility (which it kind of fails at tbh)

We’re missing a proper ranged burst weapon, and P/P could actually be it. It needs a complete rework in order for P/P to be a proper burst damage, though. If you remove Vital Shot’s bleed, P/D becomes less of a single target condition weapon. Body Shot needs changed completely.

If you want P/P to be burst, they’ll have to change pistol MH entirely – to fix P/P to compete with P/D, they could just change unload to something that compares with CnD → Sneak attack. I have a feeling they’ll modify 1 ability limited to only P/P rather than redesign Pistol MH entirely. Perhaps they don’t want thieves to have a ranged burst weapon?

Agree with above. Did you guys consider that they deliberatly didn’t make a perfect weapon set so that players could come up with new/different and interesting builds?

Also I could not disagree more on hs and cnd not being used as condition thief, I would rather use 2 hs the one db when someone is about to die. Still does decent dmg.

Also p/p is a awesome set to swap to when your out of ini imo, and worls perfectly with a condition build. Sneak attack is boss! Rest of the weapon set is full of great utility that are super situational.

I would just cry if p/p became another burst build. Thiefs do have enough of imbalanced burst. We do NOT need ranged burst.

Basicly I think the sets are fine the way they are, they don’t have to be a perfect to be good and that opens up options for interesting builds.

Al tho I dislike dancing dagger, kitten expencive cripple!

Nande.6810:

Agree with above. Did you guys consider that they deliberatly didn’t make a perfect weapon set so that players could come up with new/different and interesting builds?

Also I could not disagree more on hs and cnd not being used as condition thief, I would rather use 2 hs the one db when someone is about to die. Still does decent dmg.

Also p/p is a awesome set to swap to when your out of ini imo, and worls perfectly with a condition build. Sneak attack is boss! Rest of the weapon set is full of great utility that are super situational.

I would just cry if p/p became another burst build. Thiefs do have enough of imbalanced burst. We do NOT need ranged burst.

Basicly I think the sets are fine the way they are, they don’t have to be a perfect to be good and that opens up options for interesting builds.

Al tho I dislike dancing dagger, kitten expencive cripple!

Its not about being perfect, its about being properly designed. Why would D/D have 3 abilities that are directly affected by power/crit, and one that relies entirely on Condition damage? Should I stack condition damage at detriment to my other 3 abilities? Should I just ignore DB because i’m all power/crit?

Sneak attack is pistol mainhand, not P/P specific – P/D is massively superior primarily because Unload is a useless skill for a condi Build (in addition to no way to gain stealth and the delicious sneak attack), which pistol mainhand Screams loudly.

Speaking from a PvP standpoint, there is very little mixing and matching of condi/direct damage for thief (maybe other classes differ, I don’t know). Attrition specs work for other classes, but not so well for thief. We can’t win a war of attrition because our main survival mechanic (stealth), stops us from capping points. I can survive a -long- time in my build by milking my stealth, but I give up the cap point to the other team, and that just doesnt work.

Oh god yes, Death blossom is good in PvE since i can spam it stacking 25 bleed in 5 sec along with caltrops, in PvP, bleed absolutely suck, your target will not stay in one place to stack enough bleed to do enough damage, heart seeker damage will suck cause you’re condition spec, and stacking 5 bleed before he removes it, our int. is depleted and he has all his skill ready to kitten us up.

P/D sucks too, there’s not enough damage with bleed and the skills are low damage, it’s simply for staying in the back and feel useful by hitting something, you won’t kill people with it.

It’s the same thing with p/p, unload suck balls, damage is low and anyone with half a brain can dodge it, and the second skill takes too long to cast and it’s useless, venerability itself is poor.

So what do we have here for burst damage thief? spamming backstab and pistol whip.

I love d/d thief i don’t care if it’s a condition build or burst just remove death blossom or remove bleed and add immobilize or some other kitten.

D/B is fine, leave my AOE Bleed Alone.

I can poison them with ‘1’ and use ‘3’ to stack up ALOT of condition damage, this also effects people in AOEs so I can bleed multiple players as well.

It makes sense because it has a poison on 1.

You have Cloak/Dagger, Heartseeker spam, your fine.

evilapprentice.6379:

Its not about being perfect, its about being properly designed. Why would D/D have 3 abilities that are directly affected by power/crit, and one that relies entirely on Condition damage? Should I stack condition damage at detriment to my other 3 abilities? Should I just ignore DB because i’m all power/crit?

Sneak attack is pistol mainhand, not P/P specific – P/D is massively superior primarily because Unload is a useless skill for a condi Build (in addition to no way to gain stealth and the delicious sneak attack), which pistol mainhand Screams loudly.

Speaking from a PvP standpoint, there is very little mixing and matching of condi/direct damage for thief (maybe other classes differ, I don’t know). Attrition specs work for other classes, but not so well for thief. We can’t win a war of attrition because our main survival mechanic (stealth), stops us from capping points. I can survive a -long- time in my build by milking my stealth, but I give up the cap point to the other team, and that just doesnt work.

Yes it is! It’s about your sense of perfect weapon set. AL tho I understand you and why you are questioning this. Thing is, if you make every weapon set have a clear role there in the end will be one build that’s superior to another and I don’t think that’s what anet wants.

Also I have to disagree on P/D being better for bleed builds, imo P/P does a lot better, with headshot for daze/interupt and black powered for occasional “tanking” while waiting for ini. I don’t wanna go into melee more then I have to when waiting for ini really. But yes I don’t really need unload for condition builds but it’s nice to have but very situational.

Yes I agree that it’s a kitten that we cant really hold or cap a node while utilizing stealth but we where never supposed to act as node holders now were we :P

evilapprentice.6379:

LiuliRenai.3928:

This threads always ends up with Direct Damage thieves wanting even more damage than they already have at the expense of Condition thieves.

No.

Fail on every count – I’m a condition thief who wants my abilities to make sense. I’m sorry that you like your DB build, but its silly that of your 5 weapon skills, 2 are completely useless, and 1 is severly underused – DB is the ONLY WAY you can do damage.

Fail on every count – it is not your skills that don’t make sense, it’s probably your build. On D/D my skill 1 applies both poison and weakness for more than 3 seconds and can be stacked to always be up on the target. My steal also adds to the poison and weakness durations. Great for PvE, great for PvP in some situations.

Heartseeker as a condition thief is not the hard hitting ability it is for direct damage thieves, but with Carrion gear it still does a good chunk of damage for low health people, and more importantly it’s still a charge.

Skill 4 is a cripple, which has it’s duration extended by my +condition duration.

Skill 5 stealths me.

So which are this skills which are supposedly not used in condition builds?

Honestly, I don’t get it. People usually complain that the combat is too simple and then OT comes and want it to become yet simpler.

The mix of direct and condition damage is there by design. As a thief, you are supposed to find a balance between the two to suit your playstyle best. Making P/P condition damage only and D/D direct damage only would trivialise the thief. Try to think out of the box and you will see that Thief is actually a really beautifully designed class. My only gripes are with Steal (which is a bit underwhelming) and skills like Shadow Strike/Flanking Strike (which do not work reliably).

BTW, OP’s complains about Pistol Whip made me chuckle. Its a interrupt/stun and a good damage AOE burst skill. And you want to make it unavoidable? Then you’d have to make Warrior’s 100blades and Guardian’s Zealot’s Defense unavoidable as well. You have to work to get your burst skill connect. Anything else would clearly be overpowered and trivialise gameplay.

I think P/P might actually be designed specifically for PvE. Unload becomes your primary attack to down foes, and all your other pistol skills support it as you kite around.

Red Falcon.8257:

You got the main issue right.
D/D is direct damage and should not have a condition-based dual skill, similarly P/P should stack conditions.
DB and Unload basically need their effects swapped to be viable with their weapon’s playstyle.

I hope to hear devs on this too.

Signed

arcdash.4039:

I think P/P might actually be designed specifically for PvE. Unload becomes your primary attack to down foes, and all your other pistol skills support it as you kite around.

Unload really isn’t strong enough by itself to make the kit worth using, though, even in PVE. Especially if you have +condition damage. Adding bleeds to Unload would go a long way to making the kit more tolerable, or alternatively they could reduce cost to 4 initiative and let us essentially spam Unload, letting us stack power/precision/crit damage since Vital Shot would hardly ever get used.

Also, Body Shot is just straight useless. For both P/P and P/D. In both PVE and PVP.

Umm dont touch my unload k thanks.

It’s set up so that both condition thieves and power thieves have options.

A power thief could go dagger/dagger, dagger/pistol, or sword/pistol (I don’t really consider sword/dagger an option) for melee, and pistol/pistol for range, that’s supposed to be the way it works anyway, but pistol/pistol needs work (mainly body shot, and head shot imo) You can kind of go shortbow for range, but shortbow direct damage is pretty weak.

A condition thief can go dagger/dagger for melee and pistol/dagger or shortbow for range.

If you switch and make dagger/dagger purely a direct damage setup, condition thieves have no melee swap.

If you make pistol/pistol purely a condition setup… power thieves have just awful ranged damage.

If anything, I’d work on pistol mainhand as a power ranged weapon, removing the bleed from the auto attack/sneak attack (adding the damage in as direct damage), hell, rename the vital shot to body shot, then change body shot to leg shot, and giving it a cripple (changing the ankle shots trait perhaps to something else). Give unload 3 stacks of vulnerability for 5s, head shot just plain needs to do more damage, yes I know it’s an interrupt but it’s just stupid that I’m shooting someone in the head yet it’s the lowest damage I can possibly do. The sneak attack can stack vuln instead of bleed.

Your P/P suggestion would ruin my ranged condition damage completely. Also Head shot is probably the most underrated and underused utility ability out there. I ALWAYS use it at least once on every enemy in sPvP and tournaments.

you have shortbow for ranged condition damage and honestly more utility.

Direct Damage thieves don’t have a good ranged option. They have the slow whittling down of shortbow, or unload spam which has extremely limited kiting ability (only via a trait)

Devildoc.6721:

you have shortbow for ranged condition damage and honestly more utility.

I disagree, P/P has more utility with headshot and black powder, both can be used in numerous situations with great success, while infiltrators arrow and the dodge really only do on thing each.

I think the only way to make those who want to use P/P for power and those who want to use P/P for conditions happy is to change Body Shot. It’s pretty terrible either way right now. Maybe give Unload like 10% more damage or reduce the number of shots required to reach its max damage. Then change Body Shot into something else, like maybe 3 stacks of Bleed, a stack of Poison or Burning that last maybe 10 seconds or something.

I’ve seen the videos of P/D and it seems like it’s really boring. Just run around auto attacking for your best damage with the occasional CnD → stealth attack. Making Body Shot into something else seems like it’d be better.

There’s really just no way to please those who want an actual DPS ranged option and those who want another condition ranged option. P/D is really good at single target condition and short bow has AoE condition. I just feel like P/P would be overshadowed if it became a pure condition weapon.

If you’re using dual pistols for a condition damage build you’re kind of doing it wrong.

I don’t know about redesign.
It is too late at this stage of released game but..
I would love to see Shadow Shot and Shadow Strike swap places.
D/P already have gap closer which is HS and would surely use an evasive attack.
P/D on the other hand is crying for a skill like Shadow Shot.It will be a nice combination with C&D and Sneak Attack.

@Liul
“Fail on every count – it is not your skills that don’t make sense, it’s probably your build. On D/D my skill 1 applies both poison and weakness for more than 3 seconds and can be stacked to always be up on the target. My steal also adds to the poison and weakness durations. Great for PvE, great for PvP in some situations.”

And I’m sure you’re running 900 condition damage for that 3 second poison.

“Heartseeker as a condition thief is not the hard hitting ability it is for direct damage thieves, but with Carrion gear it still does a good chunk of damage for low health people, and more importantly it’s still a charge.”

Yes, if you’re specifically using 1 of the 4 condition amulets, heartseeker does “Ok” damage. That doesn’t change the fact that your gearing and specing you’re character entirely around 1 ability (DB) if you go D/D condition.

“Skill 4 is a cripple, which has it’s duration extended by my +condition duration.”

Which has no bearing on the conversation. Your condition damage does nothing to help Dancing Dagger.

“Skill 5 stealths me.”
Which isn’t a condition, also has no bearing on the conversation.

“So which are this skills which are supposedly not used in condition builds?”

All the ones I said. You’re rather far off the point. If you’re building up condition damage to run DB in D/D, you’re sacrificing the effectiveness of everything other ability – the poison from lotus strike ticks 1-2 times, so you’re not using it for damage (its a utility). Your heartseeker does garbage damage because you’re power is mid-range and you have no crit (or, you have great crit and kitten power if you run the rabid ammy). Cloak and Dagger is also laughable – the damage is not great, and all you’re using stealth for is getting close to your target so you can DB again, because backstab does kitten damage in the build.

Mixing and matching of abilities is stupid – we can’t build to please both, so we’re sacraficing some to most of our hotbar whenever we pick a focus, and I’d like to see that fixed. Look at Engi’s pistol/pistol – It screams condition damage, and guess what- not a single ability there is out of place. Why can’t we have that?

I am sick of noob Thieves making dumb suggestions. Leaping Death Blossom is fine. Dagger Dagger is a perfect designed weapon set that is viable for both burst and condition specs.

The only dual ability that needs a redesign is Flanking Strike, everything else works.

First, D/P shadowshot self roots for for some reason, that needs fixing, cant believe you could even overlook that, have you ever used shadowshot?

pistol whip will probably be nerfed just because of forum outcry just like heartseeker, anet apparently panders to the lowest common denominator

if they fix the pathing on flanking strike it would be fine i imagine

deathblossom imo is an issue, it splits D/D into two builds essentially. watering down its set and makes it a bit confusing. you go direct damage and its a expensive dodge for when you have no dodges left. or you go conditions and use it in almost exclusion to anything else on your weapon set.

also tru enough about P/P unload skill, kinda odd really.

and

@knyx, dude, dont suggest that, it would RUIN dagger/pistol builds. D/P is a power oriented weapon set with group support in terms of blind effects. the idea is straight up bad and just serves to make D/P the watered down spec rather then D/D. not too mention the INSANE initiative cost it would require to do what you say.

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

I am sick of noob Thieves making dumb suggestions. Leaping Death Blossom is fine. Dagger Dagger is a perfect designed weapon set that is viable for both burst and condition specs.

The only dual ability that needs a redesign is Flanking Strike, everything else works.

not true, you run a conditions dagger/dagger build you mine as well remove all the other moves from your action bar, its a gimmick, a fun one, one that i have a alt gear set just for, but a gimmic nonetheless.

just cuz your biased over it doesnt mean its not an issue.

Wolfe.3097:

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

I am sick of noob Thieves making dumb suggestions. Leaping Death Blossom is fine. Dagger Dagger is a perfect designed weapon set that is viable for both burst and condition specs.

The only dual ability that needs a redesign is Flanking Strike, everything else works.

not true, you run a conditions dagger/dagger build you mine as well remove all the other moves from your action bar, its a gimmick, a fun one, one that i have a alt gear set just for, but a gimmic nonetheless.

just cuz your biased over it doesnt mean its not an issue.

You think that a D/D condition build doesn’t use dancing dagger, cloak and dagger, heartseeker and auto attack? You are terrible at playing and understanding a D/D Thief.

I am not biased, unlike you I know what I am talking about.

believe it or not but mesmers are running into the same issue with staff not being power based, yet its their best weapon set.

what sucks is that you go sword pistol or sword sword, and all of your dmg is based upon power, then you HAVE to go greatsword in order to benefit from your build. a lot of the mesmer community hates that their only option for a power based build is to go with a greatsword rather than utilizing their best weapon.

on the flip side, you can try to go a condition based build with staff and then scepter or something, but the vast majority of the community of mesmers despises scepter, simply because the autoattack kills their phantasms.

it’s not just in the thief realm where weapon combos or attacks don’t make a lot of sense, so i get your picture, but its’ broader than just with the thief class.

Chakuna.6325:

Devildoc.6721:

If you’re using Thieves for a condition damage class you’re kind of doing it wrong.

fyp

I’m seeing too many posts about the SB being a condition weapon for a thief; 3 stacks of bleeding and poison damage? lol… Choking Gas is primarily meant for healing reduction and weakness, the condition damage is just a bonus, and Cluster Bomb is primarily meant for AoE direct damage, again, the condition damage is just a bonus.

Obviously Pistol MH and Unload need a revamp, just using Trick Shot out performs Unload atm and it has no initiative cost, cast time and it’s an AoE type auto-attack.

Imo they should give P/x a kiting/evasive direct damage play-style.
Give Vital Shot Vulnerability.
Give Sneak Attack more direct damage, Confusion and or Cripple/Chill, something other than condition damage.
Give Unload Cripple or Chill, same, if not more damage, it’s extremely lackluster atm
Get rid of Body Shot and give us something creative and relative to this play-style.

Shortbow’s direct damage is abyssmal, and no it doesn’t outperform pistols on a single target. Pistol autoattack actually does more damage than trick shot when the bleed is factored in and unload does as much damage as 2 cluster bombs and doesn’t have the long flight time.

Pistol has good damage aside from requiring bleeds to maximize it, what it’s lacking is mobility and the ability to effectively kite, and the skill that stacks vulnerability is a waste of initiative. That’s why I said sneak attack and unload stack vulnerability instead, and the #2 becomes a cripple. I won’t waste 2 initiative to put on a vulnerability for 5s, but I will use 2 initiative to cripple for 5s.

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

Wolfe.3097:

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

I am sick of noob Thieves making dumb suggestions. Leaping Death Blossom is fine. Dagger Dagger is a perfect designed weapon set that is viable for both burst and condition specs.

The only dual ability that needs a redesign is Flanking Strike, everything else works.

not true, you run a conditions dagger/dagger build you mine as well remove all the other moves from your action bar, its a gimmick, a fun one, one that i have a alt gear set just for, but a gimmic nonetheless.

just cuz your biased over it doesnt mean its not an issue.

You think that a D/D condition build doesn’t use dancing dagger, cloak and dagger, heartseeker and auto attack? You are terrible at playing and understanding a D/D Thief.

I am not biased, unlike you I know what I am talking about.

sure you can use it, but its not as effective. a properly built CONDITIONS D/D (dont spout kitten about D/D when right its its more then one spec) build will rely on dodges/evasion effects not stealth. autoattack isnt even included in my discussion, id assume you had it on regardless, and it does pitiful damage. as well as HS, dancing dagger you could use, but lets be honest, youd be more likelyt o kill someone with it with a power/crit build. most you get from conditions is slightly longer cripple.

im not being biased, its simple fact, more of D/D skills benefit from power/crit, yes we have have traits/utilities that benefit from conditions but it doesnt outweigh the overwhelming design direction of D/D.

if HS, cloak, and backstab and autoattack of D/D supported conditions damage rather then being based off of power/crit id agree with ya, but they dont.

your clinging to a halfbaked design that while works, is still a gimmick

Wolfe.3097:

First, D/P shadowshot self roots for for some reason, that needs fixing, cant believe you could even overlook that, have you ever used shadowshot?

I got so used to playing around it, i forgot it was there (and i havent run D/P in a long time), but you’re correct.

evilapprentice.6379:

All the ones I said. You’re rather far off the point. If you’re building up condition damage to run DB in D/D, you’re sacrificing the effectiveness of everything other ability – the poison from lotus strike ticks 1-2 times, so you’re not using it for damage (its a utility). Your heartseeker does garbage damage because you’re power is mid-range and you have no crit (or, you have great crit and kitten power if you run the rabid ammy). Cloak and Dagger is also laughable – the damage is not great, and all you’re using stealth for is getting close to your target so you can DB again, because backstab does kitten damage in the build.

Mixing and matching of abilities is stupid – we can’t build to please both, so we’re sacraficing some to most of our hotbar whenever we pick a focus, and I’d like to see that fixed. Look at Engi’s pistol/pistol – It screams condition damage, and guess what- not a single ability there is out of place. Why can’t we have that?

You are missing the point. A condition build does not need every single skill to do condition damage. They need every skill to be useful to them in some way.
D/D skill one’s poison does not tick for 1 or 2 with a condition spec, it ticks for 3 and stacks with poison for 16 seconds from steal, not to mention the added weakness.
Heartseeker is a gap closer.
Dancing Daggers cripples 4 opponents. You don’t use it for the damage, you use it to slow targets that are running away, or to prep your own retreat, and as an added bonus your +condition duration lengthens the cripple effect.
Cloak and Dagger stealths you. Of course it has bearing on the conversation. The more stealths you have, the more time you break your opponent’s targetting on you.

As a condition spec I rely primarily on Death Blossom and Pistol’s auto attack, and yet there isn’t a single skill I never use. The trick is when to use them.

Your engineer example has one big flaw – it stacks conditions that last 2~3 seconds (without speccing for more) while death blossom stacks 3 bleeds that last 10 seconds (15 in my build), is an AoE, and also an evade. Adding more skills that would add even more condition damage on top of this one ability that does more damage than all of Engineer’s P/P skills combined would be silly OP.

Wolfe.3097:

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

Wolfe.3097:

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

I am sick of noob Thieves making dumb suggestions. Leaping Death Blossom is fine. Dagger Dagger is a perfect designed weapon set that is viable for both burst and condition specs.

The only dual ability that needs a redesign is Flanking Strike, everything else works.

not true, you run a conditions dagger/dagger build you mine as well remove all the other moves from your action bar, its a gimmick, a fun one, one that i have a alt gear set just for, but a gimmic nonetheless.

just cuz your biased over it doesnt mean its not an issue.

You think that a D/D condition build doesn’t use dancing dagger, cloak and dagger, heartseeker and auto attack? You are terrible at playing and understanding a D/D Thief.

I am not biased, unlike you I know what I am talking about.

sure you can use it, but its not as effective. a properly built CONDITIONS D/D (dont spout kitten about D/D when right its its more then one spec) build will rely on dodges/evasion effects not stealth. autoattack isnt even included in my discussion, id assume you had it on regardless, and it does pitiful damage. as well as HS, dancing dagger you could use, but lets be honest, youd be more likelyt o kill someone with it with a power/crit build. most you get from conditions is slightly longer cripple.

im not being biased, its simple fact, more of D/D skills benefit from power/crit, yes we have have traits/utilities that benefit from conditions but it doesnt outweigh the overwhelming design direction of D/D.

if HS, cloak, and backstab and autoattack of D/D supported conditions damage rather then being based off of power/crit id agree with ya, but they dont.

your clinging to a halfbaked design that while works, is still a gimmick

1. It depends on the situation, there are situations where auto attack and heatseeker are more effective than leaping death blossom even when playing a condition build.

2. Stealth is far superior than dodge when you are going for a stomp.

3. D/D doesn’t favour kitten, it works with a condition build and a power crit build. It is not a gimmick because D/D is the most popular weapon set together with S/P, so the design is flawless.

I can’t wait for e-sport patch with ladders and ratings, hopefully it will display on the forum too so I know who I should reply to and who to ignore.

LiuliRenai.3928:

evilapprentice.6379:

All the ones I said. You’re rather far off the point. If you’re building up condition damage to run DB in D/D, you’re sacrificing the effectiveness of everything other ability – the poison from lotus strike ticks 1-2 times, so you’re not using it for damage (its a utility). Your heartseeker does garbage damage because you’re power is mid-range and you have no crit (or, you have great crit and kitten power if you run the rabid ammy). Cloak and Dagger is also laughable – the damage is not great, and all you’re using stealth for is getting close to your target so you can DB again, because backstab does kitten damage in the build.

Mixing and matching of abilities is stupid – we can’t build to please both, so we’re sacraficing some to most of our hotbar whenever we pick a focus, and I’d like to see that fixed. Look at Engi’s pistol/pistol – It screams condition damage, and guess what- not a single ability there is out of place. Why can’t we have that?

You are missing the point. A condition build does not need every single skill to do condition damage. They need every skill to be useful to them in some way.
D/D skill one’s poison does not tick for 1 or 2 with a condition spec, it ticks for 3 and stacks with poison for 16 seconds from steal, not to mention the added weakness.
Heartseeker is a gap closer.
Dancing Daggers cripples 4 opponents. You don’t use it for the damage, you use it to slow targets that are running away, or to prep your own retreat, and as an added bonus your +condition duration lengthens the cripple effect.
Cloak and Dagger stealths you. Of course it has bearing on the conversation. The more stealths you have, the more time you break your opponent’s targetting on you.

As a condition spec I rely primarily on Death Blossom and Pistol’s auto attack, and yet there isn’t a single skill I never use. The trick is when to use them.

Your engineer example has one big flaw – it stacks conditions that last 2~3 seconds (without speccing for more) while death blossom stacks 3 bleeds that last 10 seconds (15 in my build), is an AoE, and also an evade. Adding more skills that would add even more condition damage on top of this one ability that does more damage than all of Engineer’s P/P skills combined would be silly OP.

This is the last time I’ll be responding to you, so please, read very carefully – it’s silly to stick a condition damage only ability in the middle of a hotbar with 4 abilities designed to deal direct damage, or directly support the dealing of direct damage. Of course you can find uses for your other abilities, but they are being -underutilized due to poor design-. Reread the part I blocked out, because thats the key.

It leads to builds that either don’t use (power/crit doesnt use DB, unless your desperately trying to dodge a HB with no stunbreaks and no endurance) or underutilizes your other abilities. I’m glad you like the crap damage heartseeker does in a condi build, and you’ve found ways to explain how awesome your 500 damage CnD is (so you can backstab, right?), but you’re still ignoring the main issue. Until you acknowledge it, you’re just trolling.

Just because you think your build is better doesn’t mean engi’s isn’t -better by design-. The dev’s said “pistols are going to be for conditions”, and then didnt stick a big DD button right in the middle of their hotbar so engi’s can go “No no, its great for finishing off my bleeding, poisoned, confused foe 2 seconds faster”.

And, just a side note from personal preference, DB is garbage – Long, expensive to stack bleeds that get cleansed like crazy are awful in the current meta – short, rapidly stacking pistol bleeds are where its at for now.

1-yes i agree if someone is at 10% hp im sure HS is very viable, autoattack i assume is on by default

2-true, but in that situation you can use cloak and dagger without worrying about damage anyways.

3-flawless? lol fanboy much? sorry thats inflammatory but seriously kinda asking for it when stating such an absolute. it favors direct damage builds, proof is that 5 of its skills benefit more from power/crit then from condition.

and my god your a arrogent pri*ck

Wolfe.3097:

1-yes i agree if someone is at 10% hp im sure HS is very viable, autoattack i assume is on by default

2-true, but in that situation you can use cloak and dagger without worrying about damage anyways.

3-flawless? lol fanboy much? sorry thats inflammatory but seriously kinda asking for it when stating such an absolute. it favors direct damage builds, proof is that 5 of its skills benefit more from power/crit then from condition.

and my god your a arrogent pri*ck

So at first you disagree with me, then I prove you wrong and you are like “oh kitten, this dude actually knows what he is talking about! I better agree with him”. Now you didn’t agree on point 3 because you don’t comprehend what flawless design is. D/D and Shortbow are the only 2 weapons that are viable for both power crit build and condition build. This brings variety and different playstyles, which is exactly what they wanted: “play the game the way you want it”.

Why would any sane person want to change D/D? A weapon set that is both viable for power crit and condition damage? So what if more abilities benefit from power crit? The fact remains that both power crit and condition builds are viable with D/D.

Rannulf.9417:

Oh god yes, Death blossom is good in PvE since i can spam it stacking 25 bleed in 5 sec along with caltrops, in PvP, bleed absolutely suck, your target will not stay in one place to stack enough bleed to do enough damage, heart seeker damage will suck cause you’re condition spec, and stacking 5 bleed before he removes it, our int. is depleted and he has all his skill ready to kitten us up.

P/D sucks too, there’s not enough damage with bleed and the skills are low damage, it’s simply for staying in the back and feel useful by hitting something, you won’t kill people with it.

It’s the same thing with p/p, unload suck balls, damage is low and anyone with half a brain can dodge it, and the second skill takes too long to cast and it’s useless, venerability itself is poor.

So what do we have here for burst damage thief? spamming backstab and pistol whip.

I love d/d thief i don’t care if it’s a condition build or burst just remove death blossom or remove bleed and add immobilize or some other kitten.

The ability doesn’t suck, you do. Of course your target won’t stay in the same spot! Learn to time your attacks, I play a condition D/D Thief in PvP and I love it.

D/P – Shadow Shot – One of 2 perfectly designed dual skill we have. 4 init, blind/gap closer/decent damage. I wouldnt change a thing.

You obviously haven’t spent much time using this in PvP. The only time it does what it is supposed to do is if your target remains almost completely still. It has a slight self root and doesn’t seem to teleport properly on top of that. It definitely need to be fixed to work properly.

I almost exclusively use D/P so I use this skill on a regular basis. If someone is trying to run away or strafe when you are using it, you will likely end up out of melee range and rooted for a quarter second where you land. I never use it unless I know someone is going to stay still or if I want to get back into range after a dodge backwards.