Guild Wars 2

we all know steal is instant cast, and traited has lots of terrifying effects.
TLDR steal is OP.
Even thief mains feel that steal is OP as it is.
when they can choose 3 trait lines when the patch hits, thieves will eat everyone for dinner.

so,

giving it a cast time will break a lot of thieves’ gameplay.

Why not make steal use up initiatives? like maybe 4 per cast?

That will help balance out an OP skill.

Thoughts?

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage
Heals
Gains initiative
Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.
Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)
Shares Boons,
Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.
Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)
Aoe blinds.
Teleports you to your target.
Dazes the enemy.
Gives you an additional skill.
And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Initiative is for skills that have no cooldown. Do you want steal on a 0s cooldown and take 4 initiative? I’m a thief myself, but that would be ridiculous.

Also, it would be counteractive as the first minor trait in Trickery gives 2 initiative back on stealing.

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Because instant skills require no hard-work, no effort and no learning curve: that is why!

DarkSyze.8627:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Because instant skills require no hard-work, no effort and no learning curve: that is why!

Steal isn’t an instant kill.

EremiteAngel.9765:

we all know steal is instant cast, and traited has lots of terrifying effects.
TLDR steal is OP.
Even thief mains feel that steal is OP as it is.
when they can choose 3 trait lines when the patch hits, thieves will eat everyone for dinner.

so,

giving it a cast time will break a lot of thieves’ gameplay.

Why not make steal use up initiatives? like maybe 4 per cast?

That will help balance out an OP skill.

Thoughts?

While we are at it lets double the cooldowns of meditations and virtues- same principle right?

yolo swaggins.2570:

DarkSyze.8627:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Because instant skills require no hard-work, no effort and no learning curve: that is why!

Steal isn’t an instant kill.

" Stealing has no activation time and may be performed during other actions without interrupting the action, and can even be used while disabled ".

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Steal

DarkSyze.8627:

yolo swaggins.2570:

DarkSyze.8627:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Because instant skills require no hard-work, no effort and no learning curve: that is why!

Steal isn’t an instant kill.

" Stealing has no activation time and may be performed during other actions without interrupting the action, and can even be used while disabled ".

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Steal

Still doesn’t say anything about instant kills.

ronpierce.2760:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage
Heals
Gains initiative
Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.
Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)
Shares Boons,
Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.
Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)
Aoe blinds.
Teleports you to your target.
Dazes the enemy.
Gives you an additional skill.
And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

I’m sure if there was just 1 virtue it would the same divided into passive and active of course thief doesn’t have signet design with steal, war can’t because traits are divided on adrenaline level and burst us thief doesn’t have real control of the stolen skills so I don’t see them getting traits dedicated to stolen items, necro is somewhat similar divided on entrance,exit or while in DS,LF level and of course 5 skills thief doesn’t have that. It only looks like much due to how simple steal is.

Sagat.3285:

ronpierce.2760:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage
Heals
Gains initiative
Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.
Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)
Shares Boons,
Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.
Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)
Aoe blinds.
Teleports you to your target.
Dazes the enemy.
Gives you an additional skill.
And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

I’m sure if there was just 1 virtue it would the same divided into passive and active of course thief doesn’t have signet design with stealth, war can’t because traits are divided on adrenaline level and burst use, thief doesn’t have real control of the stolen skills so I don’t see them getting traits dedicated to stolen items, necro is somewhat similar divided on entrance,exit or while in DS,LF level and of course 5 skills thief doesn’t have that. It only looks like much due to how simple steal is.

Doesn’t make it any less of an issue with how front loaded that is with a single instant press on a low cooldown that is both nearly entirely luck to avoid and easy to land due to its instant cast and shadow step feature. Simply too much is put into that one button and its baseline effect (instant/shadow step) makes the rest of the effects that much stronger.

Popping Death shroud doesn’t cause an instant mess. Burst skills usually give up some traits that require adrenaline and have secondary effects, none adding up nearly as high either. Virtues passives aren’t that fantasic at all and the uses are okay with a decent amount of traits and still aren’t as strong and easier to avoid.

My point is, for an instant 21 second cooldown, they simply overloaded that single skill, and that is where the problem lies. It’s instant, low cooldown and has about (literally) 17 effects to it…

DarkSyze.8627:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Because instant skills require no hard-work, no effort and no learning curve: that is why!

I slowly begin to think that according to you nothing requires hard work, effort or whatever xD
oh wait, maybe warrior? meditation guardian? pew pew ranger?
guess thats what you call hard work

ronpierce.2760:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage
Heals
Gains initiative
Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.
Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)
Shares Boons,
Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.
Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)
Aoe blinds.
Teleports you to your target.
Dazes the enemy.
Gives you an additional skill.
And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

you forgot to mention 3 things:

a) it dealing damage wont let you stealth -> revealed (pls learn your vocabulary first)

b) it takes all 3 trait lines we can chose from and 6 of 9 traits we can chose from to achieve all of this
if we take any other class like guardian and see what traits they can get if they use 6 of their 9 traits i guess you would see why what youre saying doesnt prove anything
(tip: smite condition on a 16s cooldown with one trait alone heals you for the same as mug, deals better dmg, can crit, removes a condi… so whats your point)

c) and lastly, also 3 of the 9 minors we get are involved in gaining these boni

The revealed from mug is supposedly a bug that just recently was reintroduced. So don’t give me that “learn your vocabulary” kitten. Don’t act smug.

Yeah, it’s a lot of investment but it’s kitten efficient. 60206 is already in a great spot and it’ll be in an even better spot when its 60606, don’t act like they are somehow lacking in their roaming burst build, especially post changes.

As for “c” that has no different than “b”, except that you didn’t have to think out part of your build it was just there.

You can try to say (as it stands, and it may change) current 60606 is “balanced” in design but you’re just simply wrong. Thieves act like ever since they finally had 1 major zerker counter they aren’t still the corner piece of the entire freaking meta that forced everyone else to playing Celestial because anything else just gets eaten alive as a roamer role.

But in willing to wait. We can pick this back up after Monday when they discuss the changes they’ve made to the traits since original reveal.

ronpierce.2760:

Sagat.3285:

ronpierce.2760:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage
Heals
Gains initiative
Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.
Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)
Shares Boons,
Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.
Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)
Aoe blinds.
Teleports you to your target.
Dazes the enemy.
Gives you an additional skill.
And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

I’m sure if there was just 1 virtue it would the same divided into passive and active of course thief doesn’t have signet design with stealth, war can’t because traits are divided on adrenaline level and burst use, thief doesn’t have real control of the stolen skills so I don’t see them getting traits dedicated to stolen items, necro is somewhat similar divided on entrance,exit or while in DS,LF level and of course 5 skills thief doesn’t have that. It only looks like much due to how simple steal is.

Doesn’t make it any less of an issue with how front loaded that is with a single instant press on a low cooldown that is both nearly entirely luck to avoid and easy to land due to its instant cast and shadow step feature. Simply too much is put into that one button and its baseline effect (instant/shadow step) makes the rest of the effects that much stronger.

Popping Death shroud doesn’t cause an instant mess. Burst skills usually give up some traits that require adrenaline and have secondary effects, none adding up nearly as high either. Virtues passives aren’t that fantasic at all and the uses are okay with a decent amount of traits and still aren’t as strong and easier to avoid.

My point is, for an instant 21 second cooldown, they simply overloaded that single skill, and that is where the problem lies. It’s instant, low cooldown and has about (literally) 17 effects to it…

Exactly it doesn’t look “fantastic” because it’s separated in different effects active/passive,entrance/exit,build up/usage etc. steal doesn’t have any of that you just steal and get an item some division are possible in theory, traits for carrying any stolen item seems really passive and would have to be better than the item itself that’s hard to do, traits on stolen item usage is okay I guess depending on ICD and stolen item CD.

ronpierce.2760:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage
Heals
Gains initiative
Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.
Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)
Shares Boons,
Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.
Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)
Aoe blinds.
Teleports you to your target.
Dazes the enemy.
Gives you an additional skill.
And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

Well look to all the stuff a mesmer can trait for on a shatter. It includes heals/boons/applied conditions/condition removal/stuns/dazes/interrupts/evades.

An elementalist can trait for all manner of benefits using their own special skills whwnever they switch an attunement which can b done faster then a steal and is not subject to being dodged.

I do not see the problem.

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage
Heals
Gains initiative
Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.
Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)
Shares Boons,
Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.
Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)
Aoe blinds.
Teleports you to your target.
Dazes the enemy.
Gives you an additional skill.
And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

Well look to all the stuff a mesmer can trait for on a shatter. It includes heals/boons/applied conditions/condition removal/stuns/dazes/interrupts/evades.

An elementalist can trait for all manner of benefits using their own special skills whwnever they switch an attunement which can b done faster then a steal and is not subject to being dodged.

I do not see the problem.

Ignorance on the next level, make a list and lets see if the effect makes half the list of steal while being one button and insta cast.

lighter.2708:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage
Heals
Gains initiative
Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.
Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)
Shares Boons,
Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.
Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)
Aoe blinds.
Teleports you to your target.
Dazes the enemy.
Gives you an additional skill.
And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

Well look to all the stuff a mesmer can trait for on a shatter. It includes heals/boons/applied conditions/condition removal/stuns/dazes/interrupts/evades.

An elementalist can trait for all manner of benefits using their own special skills whwnever they switch an attunement which can b done faster then a steal and is not subject to being dodged.

I do not see the problem.

Ignorance on the next level, make a list and lets see if the effect makes half the list of steal while being one button and insta cast.

Sigh…make all the shatters 1 button and proceed thanks for not noticing my point.

Sagat.3285:

lighter.2708:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage
Heals
Gains initiative
Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.
Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)
Shares Boons,
Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.
Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)
Aoe blinds.
Teleports you to your target.
Dazes the enemy.
Gives you an additional skill.
And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

Well look to all the stuff a mesmer can trait for on a shatter. It includes heals/boons/applied conditions/condition removal/stuns/dazes/interrupts/evades.

An elementalist can trait for all manner of benefits using their own special skills whwnever they switch an attunement which can b done faster then a steal and is not subject to being dodged.

I do not see the problem.

Ignorance on the next level, make a list and lets see if the effect makes half the list of steal while being one button and insta cast.

Sigh…make all the shatters 1 button and proceed thanks for not noticing my point.

I wasn’t replying to you since i didn’t really read anything else but go ahead, explain your point…

lighter.2708:

Sagat.3285:

lighter.2708:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage
Heals
Gains initiative
Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.
Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)
Shares Boons,
Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.
Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)
Aoe blinds.
Teleports you to your target.
Dazes the enemy.
Gives you an additional skill.
And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

Well look to all the stuff a mesmer can trait for on a shatter. It includes heals/boons/applied conditions/condition removal/stuns/dazes/interrupts/evades.

An elementalist can trait for all manner of benefits using their own special skills whwnever they switch an attunement which can b done faster then a steal and is not subject to being dodged.

I do not see the problem.

Ignorance on the next level, make a list and lets see if the effect makes half the list of steal while being one button and insta cast.

Sigh…make all the shatters 1 button and proceed thanks for not noticing my point.

I wasn’t replying to you since i didn’t really read anything else but go ahead, explain your point…

It’s not hard to scroll up, do you often notice specific responses when looking at threads even when not long O.o? Awkward…

okay if mesmers had one F1 ability (F1-F4 combined) here’s a list of what it could do with the build 4/4/0/0/6:

1. Damage (same damage as mug with 1 only illusion and can crit)
2. Rip Boons (1 per illusion)
3. Confusion (2 stacks of confusion, per illusion)
4. Might (1 per illusion)
5. Daze (1 second per illusion)
6. Vulnerability (5 stacks per illusion, when you interrupt)
7. Distortion (1 sec per illusion)

Now because they’re separated you get not only 4 might stacks per shatter (Illusionary Persona) you can rip 4 boons per shatter. That is:

1. huge damage (mug is 410, Mind Wrack with 3 illusions is 726)
2. 16 stacks of might
3. 16 boons removed
4. 20 stacks of confusion
5. 4 second Daze (you can get this just have to stagger your illusions and account for run time)
6. 20 stacks of vulnerability (I know hard to get on just 1 shatter but this is best case scenario)
7. 4 seconds of Distortion

All of that without really specing into shatters all that much.

Lyrsen.6702:

okay if mesmers had one F1 ability (F1-F4 combined) here’s a list of what it could do with the build 4/4/0/0/6:

1. Damage (same damage as mug with 1 only illusion and can crit)
2. Rip Boons (1 per illusion)
3. Confusion (2 stacks of confusion, per illusion)
4. Might (1 per illusion)
5. Daze (1 second per illusion)
6. Vulnerability (5 stacks per illusion, when you interrupt)
7. Distortion (1 sec per illusion)

Now because they’re separated you get not only 4 might stacks per shatter (Illusionary Persona) you can rip 4 boons per shatter. That is:

1. huge damage (mug is 410, Mind Wrack with 3 illusions is 726)
2. 16 stacks of might
3. 16 boons removed
4. 20 stacks of confusion
5. 4 second Daze (you can get this just have to stagger your illusions and account for run time)
6. 20 stacks of vulnerability (I know hard to get on just 1 shatter but this is best case scenario)
7. 4 seconds of Distortion

All of that without really specing into shatters all that much.

Which ignores various illusion requirements per shatter, build up time including phantasm cast times, illusion deaths, individual cooldowns that are not 21 seconds and more (but not perfectly) telegraphed.

You’re relating something and buffing it by a HUGE margin to prove a faulty point.

ronpierce.2760:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage
Heals
Gains initiative
Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.
Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)
Shares Boons,
Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.
Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)
Aoe blinds.
Teleports you to your target.
Dazes the enemy.
Gives you an additional skill.
And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

I think you hit the nail here Ron. I have chosen this as the justification to the answer which is yes, steal should have some cost to it in addition to the cooldown.

4 initiative cost would be a start. if traited to gain initiative on steal, then the cost would become lower. But still a cost to make the skill more balance.

I think most thieves will agree with me. I don’t think any of them wants to be OP without a challenge when the new patch hits with 3 traitlines.

A skill that can only be avoided by anticipation/luck is too OP with all those effects.

Even mesmer shatters and guardian’s judge intervention and ranger’s rapid fire etc etc either don’t give as much as steal or can be avoided actively by reacting to its animation/cast time.

steal can’t be avoided except by anticipation and luck.

ronpierce.2760:

Lyrsen.6702:

okay if mesmers had one F1 ability (F1-F4 combined) here’s a list of what it could do with the build 4/4/0/0/6:

1. Damage (same damage as mug with 1 only illusion and can crit)
2. Rip Boons (1 per illusion)
3. Confusion (2 stacks of confusion, per illusion)
4. Might (1 per illusion)
5. Daze (1 second per illusion)
6. Vulnerability (5 stacks per illusion, when you interrupt)
7. Distortion (1 sec per illusion)

Now because they’re separated you get not only 4 might stacks per shatter (Illusionary Persona) you can rip 4 boons per shatter. That is:

1. huge damage (mug is 410, Mind Wrack with 3 illusions is 726)
2. 16 stacks of might
3. 16 boons removed
4. 20 stacks of confusion
5. 4 second Daze (you can get this just have to stagger your illusions and account for run time)
6. 20 stacks of vulnerability (I know hard to get on just 1 shatter but this is best case scenario)
7. 4 seconds of Distortion

All of that without really specing into shatters all that much.

Which ignores various illusion requirements per shatter, build up time including phantasm cast times, illusion deaths, individual cooldowns that are not 21 seconds and more (but not perfectly) telegraphed.

You’re relating something and buffing it by a HUGE margin to prove a faulty point.

Straw man.

Even if it takes time to build up that much, a mesmer can still provide that much with less commitment to traits vs thief. It might not be all at once, but it still happens.

…
Which ignores various illusion requirements per shatter, build up time including phantasm cast times, illusion deaths, individual cooldowns that are not 21 seconds and more (but not perfectly) telegraphed.

You’re relating something and buffing it by a HUGE margin to prove a faulty point.

What faulty point, I did not say over how long you get those abilities. That build spends 3 major traits on shatters and 2 minors affect them, where as a Thief spends 5 major traits and 3 minors to affect Steal in the 6/0/2/0/6 build. You should realize steal does get dodged a lot in sPvP, I encourage you to try it yourself.

Now how about we talk about Chronomancer since it’s already come up with the 6/0/6/0/6 build for the thief where you can get a very good up-time on illusions and shattering makes more shatter fodder.

Lets take Domination, Illusions, and Chronomancer
Traits taken in Domination are:

• III (Rending Shatter)
• IV(Shattered Concentration)
• VIII (Mental Torment)

Traits taken in Illusions are:

• I (Compounding power)
• V (Phantasmal Haste)
• VIII (Master of Fragmentation)

Traits taken in Chronomancy are:

• II (Delayed Reactions)
• IV (Illusionary Reversion)
• VIII (Chronophantasma)

Build link

So as long as we have 2 phantasm’s and 1 illusion out you can effectively shatter twice in a row giving you:

1. 8 seconds of alacrity (numbers aren’t set in stone)
2. 8 Might
3. 8 Vulnerability (no interrupts, numbers aren’t set in stone)
4. 8 boons removed
5. 8 stacks of confusion
6. 1 illusion to spawn
7. Master of Fragmentation’s effect (depends on the shatter used)

If you use Diversion then Mind Wrack you get:

1. even more vulnerability (numbers aren’t set in stone)
2. 50% more damage on Mind Wrack (numbers aren’t set in stone)
3. 3 seconds of slow (numbers aren’t set in stone)

Overall I’m really excited to play this build on my mesmer. So you see how doing that much with one keystroke is a build decision that just happens to be the meta since everything else was nerfed to the ground… yea just think about that.

yolo swaggins.2570:

ronpierce.2760:

Lyrsen.6702:

okay if mesmers had one F1 ability (F1-F4 combined) here’s a list of what it could do with the build 4/4/0/0/6:

1. Damage (same damage as mug with 1 only illusion and can crit)
2. Rip Boons (1 per illusion)
3. Confusion (2 stacks of confusion, per illusion)
4. Might (1 per illusion)
5. Daze (1 second per illusion)
6. Vulnerability (5 stacks per illusion, when you interrupt)
7. Distortion (1 sec per illusion)

Now because they’re separated you get not only 4 might stacks per shatter (Illusionary Persona) you can rip 4 boons per shatter. That is:

1. huge damage (mug is 410, Mind Wrack with 3 illusions is 726)
2. 16 stacks of might
3. 16 boons removed
4. 20 stacks of confusion
5. 4 second Daze (you can get this just have to stagger your illusions and account for run time)
6. 20 stacks of vulnerability (I know hard to get on just 1 shatter but this is best case scenario)
7. 4 seconds of Distortion

All of that without really specing into shatters all that much.

Which ignores various illusion requirements per shatter, build up time including phantasm cast times, illusion deaths, individual cooldowns that are not 21 seconds and more (but not perfectly) telegraphed.

You’re relating something and buffing it by a HUGE margin to prove a faulty point.

Straw man.

Even if it takes time to build up that much, a mesmer can still provide that much with less commitment to traits vs thief.

In which case the added traits are making them effective in battle. Mesmer weapons are not as potent as a DP’s base. The fact that PS thieves are in such a great place and able to fro flows their steal should tell you something, but apparently it doesn’t. And yeah, by the time a Mesmer gained the clones and set up time to cycle through each of their shatters the thief probably already used Steal twice. Still you are both ignoring the much longer cooldown of Mesmers shatters save for Mindwrack.

It’s not Mesmer as the primary on 95% of elite teams, which has t changed since launch, let me remind you. That isn’t just a magical anomaly.

Even mesmer shatters and guardian’s judge intervention and ranger’s rapid fire etc etc either don’t give as much as steal or can be avoided actively by reacting to its animation/cast time.

steal can’t be avoided except by anticipation and luck.

See the bold part, guardian Judges Intervention functions exactly like steal, no it does not have the same affects but functionality wise it’s the same. Instant teleport, can be used to precast skills and land on an enemy. Honestly if you can dodge Judges intervention, you can dodge steal.

Base Steal is something you guys should really look at too:

1. Shadowstep to your foe
2. steal from them.
   Source

If I don’t take anything for steal, that mean I use 4 initiative for that… really?! Yes there are builds that don’t trait steal at all 0/6/6/2/0 for example (not really viable in sPvP and not that used in WvW.)

ronpierce.2760:

In which case the added traits are making them effective in battle. Mesmer weapons are not as potent as a DP’s base. The fact that PS thieves are in such a great place and able to fro flows their steal should tell you something, but apparently it doesn’t. And yeah, by the time a Mesmer gained the clones and set up time to cycle through each of their shatters the thief probably already used Steal twice. Still you are both ignoring the much longer cooldown of Mesmers shatters save for Mindwrack.

It’s not Mesmer as the primary on 95% of elite teams, which has t changed since launch, let me remind you. That isn’t just a magical anomaly.

Can you stop using that? Thieves might be great at backcapping and exploding terrible players but that in no way is a factor into the overpowered equation.

Steal is the least of your worries. You should be worrying about what comes afterwards. And hey, there is the telegraph for backstab. Yay.

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

ronpierce.2760:

Lyrsen.6702:

okay if mesmers had one F1 ability (F1-F4 combined) here’s a list of what it could do with the build 4/4/0/0/6:

1. Damage (same damage as mug with 1 only illusion and can crit)
2. Rip Boons (1 per illusion)
3. Confusion (2 stacks of confusion, per illusion)
4. Might (1 per illusion)
5. Daze (1 second per illusion)
6. Vulnerability (5 stacks per illusion, when you interrupt)
7. Distortion (1 sec per illusion)

Now because they’re separated you get not only 4 might stacks per shatter (Illusionary Persona) you can rip 4 boons per shatter. That is:

1. huge damage (mug is 410, Mind Wrack with 3 illusions is 726)
2. 16 stacks of might
3. 16 boons removed
4. 20 stacks of confusion
5. 4 second Daze (you can get this just have to stagger your illusions and account for run time)
6. 20 stacks of vulnerability (I know hard to get on just 1 shatter but this is best case scenario)
7. 4 seconds of Distortion

All of that without really specing into shatters all that much.

Which ignores various illusion requirements per shatter, build up time including phantasm cast times, illusion deaths, individual cooldowns that are not 21 seconds and more (but not perfectly) telegraphed.

You’re relating something and buffing it by a HUGE margin to prove a faulty point.

Straw man.

Even if it takes time to build up that much, a mesmer can still provide that much with less commitment to traits vs thief.

In which case the added traits are making them effective in battle. Mesmer weapons are not as potent as a DP’s base. The fact that PS thieves are in such a great place and able to fro flows their steal should tell you something, but apparently it doesn’t. And yeah, by the time a Mesmer gained the clones and set up time to cycle through each of their shatters the thief probably already used Steal twice. Still you are both ignoring the much longer cooldown of Mesmers shatters save for Mindwrack.

It’s not Mesmer as the primary on 95% of elite teams, which has t changed since launch, let me remind you. That isn’t just a magical anomaly.

Since when is steal tied to D/P PS?

As a side note to the OP, the benefits of steal are really only there for builds that build so heavily into it. Not saying that maybe some changes need to be made to these builds, it’s just that I don’t think giving it an initiative cost is the right place to start.

Here’s an equivalent to what you’re suggesting from a point of view you can understand (I’ve played most of my sPvP matches as a mesmer over my thief because I find my thief too useless unless playing D/P panic strike which is boring and rather lack-luster except for running circles around the map waiting for a +1 or an uncontested point):

Each mesmer shatter should increase the cooldown of each of the mesmer’s abilities, including other shatters, by 3s flat with an additional +50% increase in cooldown timers, ignoring the abilities of the chronomancer to speed up cooldown timers or the benefits of alacrity or reset potential.

While you’re not wrong in that learning to dodge steal is hard to do, it is very far from impossible. I consistently do it across all of my characters after playing thief extensively. It’s a matter of anticipation and learning your opponent. People do it constantly in the higher tiers of play. The thief is in a very similar position to the mesmer in sPvP and is strictly weaker in WvW. The only reason thieves are seen in competitive sPvP is because of their mobility; it allows them to +1 fights and take uncontested locations. Aside from a few select matchups, such as against power shatter mesmer 1v1, the thief is considered to be one of the weakest classes in sPvP due to its inability to fight without assistance.

In which case the added traits are making them effective in battle. Mesmer weapons are not as potent as a DP’s base. The fact that PS thieves are in such a great place and able to fro flows their steal should tell you something, but apparently it doesn’t. And yeah, by the time a Mesmer gained the clones and set up time to cycle through each of their shatters the thief probably already used Steal twice. Still you are both ignoring the much longer cooldown of Mesmers shatters save for Mindwrack.

It’s not Mesmer as the primary on 95% of elite teams, which has t changed since launch, let me remind you. That isn’t just a magical anomaly.

That’s because of maneuverability, if any other class had the same maneuverability (Mostly vertical and some horizontal movement with the same repeatability) thieves would be insta-kicked from those “95% of elite teams.”

yolo swaggins.2570:

ronpierce.2760:

In which case the added traits are making them effective in battle. Mesmer weapons are not as potent as a DP’s base. The fact that PS thieves are in such a great place and able to fro flows their steal should tell you something, but apparently it doesn’t. And yeah, by the time a Mesmer gained the clones and set up time to cycle through each of their shatters the thief probably already used Steal twice. Still you are both ignoring the much longer cooldown of Mesmers shatters save for Mindwrack.

It’s not Mesmer as the primary on 95% of elite teams, which has t changed since launch, let me remind you. That isn’t just a magical anomaly.

Can you stop using that? Thieves might be great at backcapping and exploding terrible players but that in no way is a factor into the overpowered equation.

Steal is the least of your worries. You should be worrying about what comes afterwards. And hey, there is the telegraph for backstab. Yay.

“You can use stolen items twice”

Guild Wars 2 – Ready Up: Episode 32
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPqYpcteqac

DarkSyze.8627:

yolo swaggins.2570:

ronpierce.2760:

In which case the added traits are making them effective in battle. Mesmer weapons are not as potent as a DP’s base. The fact that PS thieves are in such a great place and able to fro flows their steal should tell you something, but apparently it doesn’t. And yeah, by the time a Mesmer gained the clones and set up time to cycle through each of their shatters the thief probably already used Steal twice. Still you are both ignoring the much longer cooldown of Mesmers shatters save for Mindwrack.

It’s not Mesmer as the primary on 95% of elite teams, which has t changed since launch, let me remind you. That isn’t just a magical anomaly.

Can you stop using that? Thieves might be great at backcapping and exploding terrible players but that in no way is a factor into the overpowered equation.

Steal is the least of your worries. You should be worrying about what comes afterwards. And hey, there is the telegraph for backstab. Yay.

“You can use stolen items twice”

Guild Wars 2 – Ready Up: Episode 32
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPqYpcteqac

And with that, per the words of Karl, the potency of most of the stolen bundles the thief gets will be reduced on average by around 50% to make it similarly powerful as to how it is now, with just a small boost in a few of them.

lighter.2708:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage
Heals
Gains initiative
Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.
Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)
Shares Boons,
Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.
Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)
Aoe blinds.
Teleports you to your target.
Dazes the enemy.
Gives you an additional skill.
And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

Well look to all the stuff a mesmer can trait for on a shatter. It includes heals/boons/applied conditions/condition removal/stuns/dazes/interrupts/evades.

An elementalist can trait for all manner of benefits using their own special skills whwnever they switch an attunement which can b done faster then a steal and is not subject to being dodged.

I do not see the problem.

Ignorance on the next level, make a list and lets see if the effect makes half the list of steal while being one button and insta cast.

While others have already responded to your post youi seem to think that just because something has more “effects” it must be more powerful in game terms. This is nonsensical. Runes of Perplexity provide only one “effect” and that is confusion. There are many runes that provide more effects then just perplexity none of which are deemed OP when compared to runes of perplexity.

The same applies to steal versus shatter or versus any other of the F1 type skills. My mesmer landing a well timed shatter is going to lay on a lot more in the way of hurt then a thief performing a steal.

Oh my! All the eggs in one basket! So OP!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Impact.2780:

Oh my! All the eggs in one basket! So OP!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Clearly isn’t working out!!!

Zzzzzz

DarkSyze.8627:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Because instant skills require no hard-work, no effort and no learning curve: that is why!

You will find that the assumed difficulty of a class is heavily correlated to the amount of instant skills they have. This is because the optimal use of the class requires activating skills many skills in quick succession some even at the same time. Find me an attack combo in warrior that requires the use of 4+skills. These are the least skilled of the professions as their classes are not based in muscle memory, reflexes or excessive practice.

ronpierce.2760:

Sagat.3285:

ronpierce.2760:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage
Heals
Gains initiative
Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.
Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)
Shares Boons,
Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.
Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)
Aoe blinds.
Teleports you to your target.
Dazes the enemy.
Gives you an additional skill.
And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

I’m sure if there was just 1 virtue it would the same divided into passive and active of course thief doesn’t have signet design with stealth, war can’t because traits are divided on adrenaline level and burst use, thief doesn’t have real control of the stolen skills so I don’t see them getting traits dedicated to stolen items, necro is somewhat similar divided on entrance,exit or while in DS,LF level and of course 5 skills thief doesn’t have that. It only looks like much due to how simple steal is.

Doesn’t make it any less of an issue with how front loaded that is with a single instant press on a low cooldown that is both nearly entirely luck to avoid and easy to land due to its instant cast and shadow step feature. Simply too much is put into that one button and its baseline effect (instant/shadow step) makes the rest of the effects that much stronger.

Popping Death shroud doesn’t cause an instant mess. Burst skills usually give up some traits that require adrenaline and have secondary effects, none adding up nearly as high either. Virtues passives aren’t that fantasic at all and the uses are okay with a decent amount of traits and still aren’t as strong and easier to avoid.

My point is, for an instant 21 second cooldown, they simply overloaded that single skill, and that is where the problem lies. It’s instant, low cooldown and has about (literally) 17 effects to it…

This is a nonsensical argument. Unless you can show me there is no opportunity cost for each of the traits listed this just seems ridiculous. Any character you make will have 17+ traits I can’t counter. And number of skills is irrelevant, the important part is impact.

Are multivitamins OP because they pack so many vitamins into them? Should they nerf multivitamins and make people eat bananas?

Daniel Handler.4816:

ronpierce.2760:

Sagat.3285:

ronpierce.2760:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage
Heals
Gains initiative
Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.
Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)
Shares Boons,
Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.
Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)
Aoe blinds.
Teleports you to your target.
Dazes the enemy.
Gives you an additional skill.
And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

I’m sure if there was just 1 virtue it would the same divided into passive and active of course thief doesn’t have signet design with stealth, war can’t because traits are divided on adrenaline level and burst use, thief doesn’t have real control of the stolen skills so I don’t see them getting traits dedicated to stolen items, necro is somewhat similar divided on entrance,exit or while in DS,LF level and of course 5 skills thief doesn’t have that. It only looks like much due to how simple steal is.

Doesn’t make it any less of an issue with how front loaded that is with a single instant press on a low cooldown that is both nearly entirely luck to avoid and easy to land due to its instant cast and shadow step feature. Simply too much is put into that one button and its baseline effect (instant/shadow step) makes the rest of the effects that much stronger.

Popping Death shroud doesn’t cause an instant mess. Burst skills usually give up some traits that require adrenaline and have secondary effects, none adding up nearly as high either. Virtues passives aren’t that fantasic at all and the uses are okay with a decent amount of traits and still aren’t as strong and easier to avoid.

My point is, for an instant 21 second cooldown, they simply overloaded that single skill, and that is where the problem lies. It’s instant, low cooldown and has about (literally) 17 effects to it…

This is a nonsensical argument. Unless you can show me there is no opportunity cost for each of the traits listed this just seems ridiculous. Any character you make will have 17+ traits I can’t counter. And number of skills is irrelevant, the important part is impact.

Are multivitamins OP because they pack so many vitamins into them? Should they nerf multivitamins and make people eat bananas?

Lol what…? Is that really… Nevermind. Have fun thieves.

How/why is this a question type thread…?

0.5/10 for the troll attempt. Only gave 0.5 for trying.

Th answer is just one that the OP agrees the most with, not an actual correct answer – and there can’t be a correct answer for what the OP posted/asked.

This is more of discussion thread. Should either be switched to one, or closed.

4 ini cost on steal would be just stupid, i agree that it would be nice to not have all eggs in one basket, but ini cost is a completely wrong way to fix that “problem”

ronpierce.2760:

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s funny that I don’t even main thief, but as a Mesmer I get annoyed by people complaining about instant skills.

What is your justification that steal is OP?

Simply put, with 60606 a 21 second cooldown that:

Deals damage

so do a lot of things

Heals

1.8kish every 17 seconds is pitiful compare to guardians or eles. Its one stack of regen healed at once.

Gains initiative

2 seconds worth

Poisons for a long duration and weakens due to Lotus Poison.

@see ranger or necro

Steals (not rips) 2 boons STARTING with stability (biggest joke of the skill imo)

this one is actually just wrong. the boons are in fact ripped.it can’t be considered a true steal as the stack is not stolen as a whole. If you target someone with 50 seconds of regeneration and 5 stacks of stability, you will end up with 3 seconds of regeneration and 1 stack of stability. If you want true stealing of boons look at arcane thievery or larcenous strike.

Shares Boons,

this is kind of correct, but you are only sharing the boons that were ripped. And we discussed the pitiful duration on them

Grants vigor fury swiftness and might~ aoe.

@see warrior, mesmer, ranger

Stealth a for 3 seconds. (Instantly opening for a stealth attack)

which is not needed. blackpowder>heartseeker>steal>backstab wouldn’t work anymore. People who don’t like thieves will probably be confused how to feel about it. In the one part thieves can’t precast damaging skills and hit that 10k before a reveal sets in. On the other hand thieves get a free 4 seconds that doesn’t require spending six+ initiative.

Aoe blinds.

so? there are many skills that aoe blind. use skill 1 and move on

Teleports you to your target.

@see guardian, @see mesmer, elementalist, @see necro (not an instant skill but still)

Dazes the enemy.

@see thief, @see mesmer, it encourages skillful play

Gives you an additional skill.

cant comment on this till the new steal skills are shown in HoT

And has a chance to reset some of your most vital skills.

a 20% chance. Also @see mesmer

Is too kitten much in one INSTANT skill on a 21 second cooldown. No one thinks that list is at all ridiculous?? Really? O.o

not really here are a few reasons why

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control_effect

• Traits which activate upon a control effect
• And because thieves will love taunt I’ll include the beautiful revenant one, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eye_for_an_Eye

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune

• Look for ones that say on hit.

There is also block, evade, invuln. Associate each ability of steal with a skill in the game, and decrease the CD based on how much worse the steal effect is. Do the CD of these skills add up to 17-30? How much do the effects of the steal change the battle?

It all depends on how easy it is to reverse the benefits of a steal, and recuperate from any damage. Reminder that at some point it becomes a liability if you are putting 17+ important things into one action. Ill reiterate that many classes have numerous skills and traits that cannot be countered, and are not partially bound to the success of an instant skill. Show me a situation where steal is op.

Mesmers can’t melt steal-thieves.
Thief Profession is an inside job.

I got most of the way through the thread till the mud slinging began.

I do think there’s maybe a few too many traits for steals, specifically on the act of stealing. I have no problem with each separately, they’re nice but all of them together is a lot on a fairly low cool down.

Perhaps moving one or two traits onto the use of a bundle item not be a bad idea. Like stealth after using a bundle instead of when stealing.

I think the underlying problems are more that traits interacting with other utilities and skills are lacking either due to nerfs or just needing a bit more improvement.

We’ll see later on today and when the patch hits. Going to be an interesting time for the next few days.

P.S. Initiative cost for steal is a bad idea, means many combos would not be possible without going into trickery which only compounds the problem.

Virtues are also instant cast and can provide a large amount of benefits.
More damage, more healing, condition removal, aegis, stability, might, blind, boon rip, vulnerability. All applied to the entire party with much less trait investment.
They also provide great passive bonuses, while Steal doesn’t. Shouldn’t virtues be nerfed too?

While I would be for toning down steal and virtues meditation traits to balance effort vs reward, I am against steal costing initiative. Initiative is for skill with no cd. Furthermore it will link 2 mechanics together making the class inflexible. Adding to that 4 initiative is a thieve’s 1/3 base initiative. Your proposal is practically forcing thieves to spec on steal trait line in all modes just so they can use their main mechanic at will. I am generally against imposing such restrictions on the base mechanic of any class, just like I feel mesmer needing illusions to use shatter is too restrictive and that illusionary persona becoming baseline is a step in the right direction. The issue at hand is the traits surrounding steal. I think on that basis the discussion should be shifted on the position of steal traits relative to their trait lines and their functionality. Mind you mug has already been toned down so the real issue here is sleight of hand. I am sure a lot of thief mains can agree that trait is borderline OP even for a GM trait.

Zero Day.2594:

How/why is this a question type thread…?

0.5/10 for the troll attempt. Only gave 0.5 for trying.

Th answer is just one that the OP agrees the most with, not an actual correct answer – and there can’t be a correct answer for what the OP posted/asked.

This is more of discussion thread. Should either be switched to one, or closed.

This exactly. I could understand this as a suggestion even if it is a terrible one, but masking it as a question thread drops credibility pretty harshly.