Guild Wars 2

Thief

One of the issues we are working on for thieves in this release is the dependence on traits that boost initiative. We did this by shaving a significant amount of initiative gain from these traits while simultaneously boosting the generic rate of initiative gain by 33%. We have also reduced the effectiveness of high-evasion thieves by reducing vigor uptime and adding some cast time to the Shadow Return skill on the sword. This prevents thieves from evading and easily dealing with being disabled (stun, daze, fear, knockdown, etc.). Also, we are trying to improve the survivability of thieves in the Acrobatics line through easier access to the Hard to Catch trait and increased effectiveness of the Assassin’s Reward trait. This will reward thieves who are actively engaged in the fight rather than those who are just dodging over and over again. The change to Infusion of Shadow is meant to stop players from gaining initiative by applying stealth while already in stealth. This should keep thieves from being able to recharge all of their power while idling in a very long stealth. We felt that using a lot of different abilities to maintain stealth is okay, but reusing the same ability over and over for almost permanent stealth was just bad for the game, especially when gaining large amounts of initiative.

• Increased the base rate of initiative gain from .75 per second to 1 per second.
• Sword—Shadow Return: Renamed to Infiltrator’s Return. Added a .25-second cast time.
• Pistol—Pistol Whip: Reduced the aftercast on the first half of this skill by .25 seconds.
• Deadly Arts VI—Sundering Strikes: Increased the trigger chance from 33% to 50%. Removed the internal cooldown. Decreased the vulnerability duration from 14 seconds to 6 seconds.
• Critical Strikes VI—Practiced Tolerance: Increased the conversion from 5% to 7%.
• Critical Strikes VIII—Signet Use: Reduced the initiative gain from 2 to 1.
• Critical Strike X—Critical Haste: Increased the trigger chance to 25%.
• Critical Strikes 15—Opportunist: Increased the trigger chance to 50%. Increased the cooldown from 1 second to 5 seconds.
• Shadow Arts V—Infusion of Shadow: Increased the amount of initiative gained to 2, but only when entering stealth.
• Acrobatics III—Vigorous Recovery: Reduced the vigor duration from 8 seconds to 5 seconds.
• Acrobatics IV—Assassin’s Retreat: Increased the swiftness duration to 20 seconds.
• Acrobatics IX—Quick Recovery: Reduced the initiative gain from 2 to 1.
• Acrobatics X—Hard to Catch: Moved to the Master tier.
• Acrobatics XI—Assassin’s Reward: Increased the scaling with healing power by 35%. Moved to the Grandmaster tier.
• Trickery 5— – Kleptomaniac: Reduced the initiative gain from 3 to 2.
• Trickery VII—Bountiful Theft: Reduced the vigor duration from 15 seconds to 10 seconds.

Bug Fixes

• Ink Shot: Updated the damage fact to function with Power Shots.
• Ink Shot—Smoke Trail: This skill will now return to Ink Shot if the projectile is destroyed.
• Dancing Dagger: Updated the cripple skill fact to display the proper duration.

A bit more accurate…

Really good job man. +1

i am not glad i made a thief ….
you never know what they will nerf next.
maybe the healing is too OP now ?

A nice list and it is honest.

I hope everyone is noticing that the list isn’t that big. Please go take a look at the nerfs to other classes as well. Mesmers would be a good one to take a gander at.

Below are my thoughts on some of these as I don’t feel that all of them are nerfs … (and some of them I have no clue why (or how) they were nerfed*

September 2012

• Heartseeker “nerf” because thieves could press 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 for even greater effect back then. It supported (even rewarded) bad gameplay.

October 2012

• developers in the state of the game have commented that pistol whip used to be OP so no surprise that got nerfed
• a stunbreaker breaking a stun isn’t a nerf … that’s a fix making sure skills adhere to gameplay mechanics

November 2012

• dancing blades was hitting for 6k to 8k … it was never intended to be a stealthless, ranged, spammable, multi-target backstab.
• the Shadowstep was to fix an exploit.
• tactical Strike was an actual nerf but before it you could daze someone for 2 seconds, leaving them with 1 second before you could restealth … this gives them 1.5 seconds instead … that’s so horrible
• cluster bomb … yep an actual nerf
• cloak and dagger … yep a nerf … though it was hitting for around the same as backstab

December 2012

• Not being able to shoot behind yourself is another gameplay mechanic fix. Most abilities can’t do this except for a few that were intended to be that way (shots that evade … you have one on shortbow)

January 2013

• What exactly does shared venom not affecting gadgets mean to you? I’m honestly curious as I have no clue either way about this one
• Smoke Screen was a game mechanic fix since AOEs/combo fields are not supposed to follow you.

Feb 2013

• Stacking stealth by attacking walls was another gameplay mechanic fix … this was never intended to be possible
• The aggro reset was a PvE buff that allows you to be much more creative with your uses of stealth in PvE. If you still wanted to reset combat, you could still run to the end of their leash range while stealthed in order to reset the fight … except in some cases where this isn’t an option … like lava fractal … but what exactly are you going to so solo there other than aggravate the other 4 in your group by dragging things out?

March 2013

• Revealed nerf was rolled back in PvE and WvW … makes no sense to me either why it was rolled back there and not in sPvP … take that up with ArenaNet … I don’t agree with sPvP getting shafted when Thieves are appearing stronger in the other two
• Caltrops duration nerf … no clue why they did this … probably the same reason they nerfed confusion … noobs were standing in caltrops just like they were blindly autoattacking
• Basilisk Venom was a bug fix. The skill was never intended to immobilize. This was actually discussed in a state of the game with the developers
• Quickness nerf was not a thief nerf but a game-wide nerf. Several other classes used quickness as well. Some could argue that some of those classes were more reliant on it (warriors) and that some classes received nothing in return for the Nerf (Mesmer Time Warp elite).

April 2013

• Mug can no longer critically hit but it now heals for base 2k hp and scales with healing power
  • This is a damage nerf, but offset with a heal
  • This fits into what ArenaNet said about toning down burst across the board in GW2
  • so rather than hitting for 4k, you hit for 2k and heal for 2k. This is the same net gain against your opponent (2k + 2k = 4k hp advantage), it just changes how you use this skill.
• Trick shot was a mechanic fix. Projectiles are not supposed to be heat-seeking … see people side-strafing ranger/warrior arrows and other classes’ projectiles.
• Smoke Screen was a mechanic fix. Notice that all classes that had some skill(s) that did this had them fixed as well. No class was ever intended to be able to block siege attacks.

May 2013

• WvW Anti-Supply/-Stealth traps … we have no clue what these will do, how they work, etc. Thieves aren’t the only ones that leverage stealth and are leveraged less in groups for their stealth than Mesmers (Mesmer has a non-capped option with Veil and Veil and Mass Invis don’t require standing in an obvious AOE for several seconds)

You had posted this in the other thread, but we have this new (better) one so I’ll reply here if you don’t mind…

Shemsu.8721:

I dont recall the patch that changed it, but at one point the trait shadow PROTECTor gave us protection, it was changed to what it is now, regen. One of my personal most hated nerfs

If they implemented it so that you didn’t always have protection or be stealthed, I’d be fine with it … so maybe give it an internal cooldown or be somewhat random (though I hate RNG) like Mesmer’s Prismatic Understanding, then I’d be fine with this … though I would then wonder why Mesmer’s Prismatic Understanding is a 30 pt Grandmaster when we have less stealthing capabilities ;-)

Also, for a point of reference … Mesmer “nerfs” (quotes because not all are really nerfs IMO).

I included things that were simple bug fixes and gameplay mechanic fixes as well so it “matches” with the OP.

September 2012

• The Prestige: This skill now requires full recharge if it’s interrupted at any time.
• The Prestige – Fixed a bug so that Burning duration no longer amplifies when additional enemies are present.
• Fixed a bug with Signet of Illusions. It now gives phantasms 50% more health instead of 300% more.

October 2012

• Mirror of Anguish: This trait no longer functions on necromancers when they have Reaper’s Protection active.
• Phantasmal Warlock: This illusion’s recharge between attacks is now slightly longer.
• Signet of Domination can no longer be cast on targets behind the mesmer.
• Phantasmal Warlock: Increased recharge to 20 seconds.
• Chaos Storm: Increased recharge to 35 seconds.
• Phantasmal Duelist: Increased recharge to 20 seconds.
• Phantasmal Swordsman: Increased recharge to 18 seconds.

November 2012

• Portal Entre: This skill’s recharge has been increased to 90 seconds.
• Phantasm skills must now be cast in line-of-sight of the target. These skills now behave as normal attacks that the mesmer must connect in order to summon the phantasm, and they will fail if the mesmer is blind or the ability is cast on an invulnerable target.

January 2013

• Illusion of Life: This skill should no longer allow players to rally off of creatures that grant no experience.
• Shatter skills now share a global 0.25 second recharge, to prevent multiple shatter effects triggering on the same illusion.
• Shattered Strength: This trait now grants 1 stack of might per illusion shattered.

February 2013

• Mesmer Portals can no longer be interacted with when there is an obstruction between them and the player.

March 2013

• Phantasmal Duelist skill: Reduced the range to 900, matching its current listing.
• Confounding Suggestions trait: Reduced the frequency of stunning targets when Diversion is used from 100% of the time to 50%.
• Quickness: Reduced from 100% attack speed to 50%.

April 2013

• Illusion of Life skill: Players can no longer circumvent the vengeance properties. Increased cast time by 0.5 seconds.
• Distortion skill: No longer allows capture of control points in all formats or communing in PvP.
• Blinding Befuddlement trait:
  • Increased duration of applied confusion from 1 second to 4 seconds.
  • Can now trigger only once every 5 seconds on any target that is blinded by the mesmer.
• Updated confusion and retaliation effects to do the same damage as they do in sPvP.

I liked the other thread better. I really don’t see how this is in anyway helpful other than trying to tempt anet into giving thieves more things they shouldn’t have. It’s kind of like a pity us thread and it’s pathetic.

AlBundy.7851:

I liked the other thread better. I really don’t see how this is in anyway helpful other than trying to tempt anet into giving thieves more things they shouldn’t have. It’s kind of like a pity us thread and it’s pathetic.

I disagree. It is showing factual information. There is nothing wrong with that.

Additionally, if you compare it to the information on other classes’ nerfs (I assume you missed my posts), then you can see they have no been nerfed more than Mesmer and several others.

It just serves to fuel the argument of the entitlement gamer more and more and it’s not helpful at all. Why do classes get nerfed because there is something wrong with it. Do the changes fix that sometimes no but it’s done anyways to try to fix what’s wrong.

AlBundy.7851:

It just serves to fuel the argument of the entitlement gamer more and more and it’s not helpful at all. Why do classes get nerfed because there is something wrong with it. Do the changes fix that sometimes no but it’s done anyways to try to fix what’s wrong.

For the people that feel that way, they don’t need the list.

I like the list … it made it trivial for me to pick through and show that most were bug fixes.

It also made it trivial for me to list a comparable set of Mesmer nerfs for comparison.

Knowledge fosters discussion. The list provides knowledge. Those who feel entitled always will and will hopefully not take too much part in the discussion. Perhaps freeing them up to read/listen so that they might learn and “evolve”.

I wouldn’t say it isn’t helpful.

Many players say the thief is Anet’s “Golden Child” they say we’re immune to nerfs and the rest of the mumble jumbo you get along with this statement.

This is just to show these people that the thief isn’t treated differently we get balanced just like the rest of them.

I want to believe you did this with good intentions but I have a hard time with that.

No offense but stealth will never be balanced EVER it’s straight up gaming welfare. It’s a money grab for companies that put it into games. This thread is so funny because the first 2 classes that have their pity lists posted are thieves and mesmers the 2 classes that have very strong builds that can capitalize on stealth.

And if balance was actually taken seriously in this game thieves would of never received the larcenous strike boon stealing buff.

I get it that thieves are sort of weak in spvp but they still have a place.

Many of the “nerfs” are glitch-fixes. If you’re going to try to prove a point, don’t be stupid about it.

@Caom:
I 100% agree.

@AlBundy:
Perhaps you did not see why I posted the Mesmer list. Please actually read it instead of skimming (I’m assuming you’re skimming as your post suggests it due to suggesting you completely missed the context).

I disagree that stealth will never be balanced. Never be 100% non-aggravating, but it can be balanced.

I’m not sure who the “you” you’re replying to it. The last several posts other than yours have not been by the OP.

Thief weakness in sPvP is due to a few things

• The argument “why take a thief when you can take an ele”
• The issue with stealth and capping/contesting points
• The issue with mobility and capping/contesting/defending points
  • You can’t leverage mobility as much when doing so

@Aneirin Cadwall:
I 100% agree. I hope you saw my post in this thread that highlights what you’re saying.

I saw it after I posted, Sebrent. I also play a thief, and being a sane and rational person, the only ‘nerf’ I can recall is pistol whip.

Even the few damage reductions listed may be called ‘fixes’ by other professions who can still be two- or three-shotted in under <4 seconds (thanks to Quickness as a utility skill) despite having over 2K Toughness, 3K Armor and 20K Health (leaving many confused bunker guardians lying on the ground confused)… but that would only be as fair as referring to bug fixes as nerfs.

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

I saw it after I posted, Sabrent. I also play a thief, and being a sane and rational person, the only ‘nerf’ I can recall is pistol whip.

Even the few damage reductions listed may be called ‘fixes’ by other professions who can still be two- or three-shotted in under <4 seconds (thanks to Quickness as a utility skill) despite having over 2K Toughness, 3K Armor and 20K Health (leaving many confused bunker guardians lying on the ground confused)… but that would only be as fair as referring to bug fixes as nerfs.

I believe we agree close to if not 100%

I haven’t had much experience with pistol whip as of lately. Sword is beautiful with larcenous strike so I can’t really see much reason to take anything other than OH dagger with a sword now … but I think that’s strongly dictated by the current meta of so many 100% (or near it) up-time boon builds … especially on things like retaliation (ugh).

If someone wants me to talk about something I really hate … start a thread on the abundance of 100% up-time boon builds and retaliation. I’d take watching 5 thieves heartseeker spamming one poor noob any day over the boon-heavy meta.

I’m replying to both of you that posted those lists.

I just don’t believe you guys this reeks of entitlement.

Stealth can never be balanced. It takes all strategy and planning and throws it out the window and it turns things from who can execute better and make the best play to who can gib the hardest in the shortest amount of time(it’s terrible gameplay). Especially in this game it is extremely hard to punish and only a select few classes have that capability. It dumbs down gameplay you have little to no downside to wearing a full glass cannon suit because you escape the negative of being focused down by stealth being so forgiving.

The absolute best spvp matches I have seen so far are the ones that don’t include thieves and warriors(best meaning the ones that come down to the wire and there is great back and forth). I bet they would be even better if there was no mesmer.

Don’t get me wrong I’m not a fan of the bunker meta either and would like to see a trend towards more balanced builds.

You players are not looking at the current state of the thief. They hold their own vs every other class. They are still one of the best classes. You players are looking back at nerfs and claiming that thief is being destroyed. Even if they remove backstab you could still play you class. Start complaining when thieves start getting owned by warriors. The warriors have the right to complain. You are just complaining about nerfs in the past while your class is already one of the most viable and versatile classes. Whether it is conditions spamm or it is d/p backstabbing or perma dodging. (And don’t complain that these will be nerfed because thieves have too much to nerf before they are underpowered.)

Hopefully someone from anet reads this been a problem for a long while.

concerning basi venom. Sebrent you pointed out you thought the change from stone to stun was a bug fix and thats fine i guess, but if its a stun, and it can be ended by stun breakers, why is it not affected by + stun duration? seems like its still bugged to me, until either I can boost duration or it goes back to being a stone not stun

@AlBundy:
There are definitely some Mesmer builds (see: Phantasm) that I think need to be knocked down. I’m not a fan of the ratio of low skill to high effect that they have.

I disagree on how stealth can be used … definitely for some builds, but not all. I think if ArenaNet can be successful in toning down the burst across the board in GW2, this will become less of a problem.

@Zelulose:
You make a good point. The toughest thief I’ve fought (still can’t beat her) hardly, if ever, uses stealth during our fights. Instead, she makes use of large amounts of initiative regen, mobility (sword + dagger), and teleports (steal + signet … plus sword, of course). She runs a 0/30/0/30/10 build, which I would’ve thought was silly looking until I saw her tearing up everyone in a full duel server 1 at a time.

@Shemsu:
I believe we are 100% in agreement here.

If basilisk venom can be broken via a stunbreaker, then basilisk venom should be affected by +stun duration.

If basilisk venom cannot be broken via a stunbreaker, then basilisk venom should not be affected by +stun duration.

It should be consistent.

I’ve updated my post to include more details about the new WvW traps, as well as made the basilisk venom change italicized to indicate there’s a debate as to whether it’s a bug fix or a nerf.

Updated post to include recent thief nerf and/or bug fix

The title of the tread should be changed to bugs/nerfs since it implies your listing only nerfs. Like the shadow return bug that was fixed today wasn’t a nerf (i know you aren’t saying it is a nerf).

Malkavian.3751:

Updated post to include recent thief nerf and/or bug fix

It wasn’t a nerf, it was a bug fix.

Yes it is a nerf. It’s a HUGE nerf.

Lol, they just nerfed shadow return. Such scumbags.

“We want the thief to be the most mobile class, so we’re nerfing all your stealth and mug, etc.”

-> Proceeds to nerf the thieve’s best mobility skill in the game.

L M A O, disgusting. IS/Shadow return created really interesting / dynamic + mobile and evasive play from thieves, didn’t even require stealth.

Sorry guys, this one was the last straw. I quit thief permanently now. Already made an 80 ele in preparation for more disgusting thief nerfs from anet.

I’m sure there will be more to come. GL to the people staying with thief, just know anet does not give a flying kitten about you.

Most of those aren’t even actual nerfs, it’s balancing abilities that were broken, etc.

Complaining about Shadow Return being “nerfed” because it won’t port you back across the map anymore even though the skill shows that it’s only supposed to have 1200 range?

That’s not a nerf…that’s fixing a broken skill. Be glad you got to play with an obviously broken skill for that long. Infinite range? Seriously. C’mon now people.

Sebrent.3625:

AlBundy.7851:

It just serves to fuel the argument of the entitlement gamer more and more and it’s not helpful at all. Why do classes get nerfed because there is something wrong with it. Do the changes fix that sometimes no but it’s done anyways to try to fix what’s wrong.

For the people that feel that way, they don’t need the list.

I like the list … it made it trivial for me to pick through and show that most were bug fixes.

It also made it trivial for me to list a comparable set of Mesmer nerfs for comparison.

Most things you posted regarding exploits were right (walls for instance) the rest are nerfs, unwaranted nerfs don`t kid urself

THEmeltor.7295:

Most of those aren’t even actual nerfs, it’s balancing abilities that were broken, etc.

Complaining about Shadow Return being “nerfed” because it won’t port you back across the map anymore even though the skill shows that it’s only supposed to have 1200 range?

That’s not a nerf…that’s fixing a broken skill. Be glad you got to play with an obviously broken skill for that long. Infinite range? Seriously. C’mon now people.

It didn’t have an infinite range due to the time limit. Get your facts straight and stop repeating what other cool-aide drinkers had spat out. It’s disgusting.

The kitten in this topic is strong.

Seriously people, if ArenaNet nerf Thieves it is probably because they need a nerf.
It’s not like that such a big software house buff and nerf professions based on sympathy.

I also laughed at the “golden child” sentence in the OP.
You really need to read the definition of balance change.

sorrow.2364:

Seriously people, if ArenaNet nerf Thieves it is probably because they need a nerf.
It’s not like that such a big software house buff and nerf professions based on sympathy.

That argument… oh geez. Because big companies always know whats best. Especially in any rpg-like games. It has never ever happened in any such game that something was nerfed or buffed too hard. Never. No. Of course not. ._.

Nerf:
Heartseeker: Reduced damage of the 100%-50% threshold by 20%.

Heartseeker cost you 4 Int and allows it to be spammed too often. Duh it was nerfed.

Go do a Pistol Whip: 6 Int. 1 to start it, 5 for the Whip. Trust me, this was a control change for bad players doing well.

Crawford.4135:

Nerf:
Heartseeker: Reduced damage of the 100%-50% threshold by 20%.

Heartseeker cost you 4 Int and allows it to be spammed too often. Duh it was nerfed.

Go do a Pistol Whip: 6 Int. 1 to start it, 5 for the Whip. Trust me, this was a control change for bad players doing well.

Oh god pistol whip would be so redic op if they did that. Cast the stun away from a boss to not reset the defiance then activate it again for instant evade instead of a disgusting delay.

In vs players, since the whip and autos do basically the same damage, instead of wasting the whip and having such a huge delay on the cast, you stun the opponent, attack, then use the evade when they counter (or not at all for no ini cost). Cast the stun out of range, blink in with 1s to root, smash them while they’re rooted and you don’t need to wait for the stun animation to end. The +1 ini cost would be super worth it. Please do this. If you thought sword mesmer was op, just wait till you see sword/pistol thief!

RoterFuchs.9216:

sorrow.2364:

Seriously people, if ArenaNet nerf Thieves it is probably because they need a nerf.
It’s not like that such a big software house buff and nerf professions based on sympathy.

That argument… oh geez. Because big companies always know whats best. Especially in any rpg-like games. It has never ever happened in any such game that something was nerfed or buffed too hard. Never. No. Of course not. ._.

I’ve not said that. I’ve said that is stupid to remotely consider the hypothesis of anet balancing professions based on sympathy. It may happen that something is overnerfed or over buffed, but it rarely happens that something is nerfed when it didn’t need a nerf.

I still really unable to comprehend how does ANet consider what and which to be nerfed. How they approach in making the decision to actually implement it. But Alas; it is their decision and we can not do anything about it. We could only enjoy the game which is provided by Anet itself. May it be the favourable content or unfavourable content. So be it. Just enjoy the game.

Caruz.6389:

I still really unable to comprehend how does ANet consider what and which to be nerfed. How they approach in making the decision to actually implement it. But Alas; it is their decision and we can not do anything about it. We could only enjoy the game which is provided by Anet itself. May it be the favourable content or unfavourable content. So be it. Just enjoy the game.

I can guess that the “balancing process” is more or less this (as it is the only possible hypothesis imho):

1) Individuation of an imbalance
This is based around community feedback, high-level players’ feedback, stats about utilization and meta diffusion.

2) “Validation” of an imbalance
Once a possible imbalance is spotted, they have to realize if it is really an imbalance or not. To do so, I think they do mathematical comparisons between similiar builds/skills, they test the incriminated spec into different environments and, finally, lead to a final sentence about the case which can lead either to a balancing measure (nerf/buff) or to just move on.

3) Balancing measures testing
After they realized the imbalance, they needs to scratch up some possible balance fixes to the skill. They make different hypothesys and test them to finally find the best solution to the problem.

4) Patch

This is pretty much what I think there is behind the balance process (and, actually, behind any problem solving).
Some of the steps I’ve quoted are confirmed (like the internal testing of the balancing measures), the other are pure speculation but they are most likely to be true.

sorrow.2364:

I’ve not said that. I’ve said that is stupid to remotely consider the hypothesis of anet balancing professions based on sympathy. It may happen that something is overnerfed or over buffed, but it rarely happens that something is nerfed when it didn’t need a nerf.

Like Spirit weapons…that change was baffling to say the least. Nerf the worst utility of a profession? -_-

Oh and to OP: I think a little note should be put next to the 4 second revealed “nerf” since that was reverted after all.

sorrow.2364:

I can guess that the “balancing process” is more or less this (as it is the only possible hypothesis imho):

1) Individuation of an imbalance
This is based around community feedback, high-level players’ feedback, stats about utilization and meta diffusion.

2) “Validation” of an imbalance
Once a possible imbalance is spotted, they have to realize if it is really an imbalance or not. To do so, I think they do mathematical comparisons between similiar builds/skills, they test the incriminated spec into different environments and, finally, lead to a final sentence about the case which can lead either to a balancing measure (nerf/buff) or to just move on.

3) Balancing measures testing
After they realized the imbalance, they needs to scratch up some possible balance fixes to the skill. They make different hypothesys and test them to finally find the best solution to the problem.

4) Patch

This is pretty much what I think there is behind the balance process (and, actually, behind any problem solving).
Some of the steps I’ve quoted are confirmed (like the internal testing of the balancing measures), the other are pure speculation but they are most likely to be true.

Wouldn’t it be nice if they actually do that.

It seems that the recent patches are based on #1, skip #2 and #3, then #4.

Take Pistol Whip for example, first nerf was due to it being used with haste. Then Haste gets nerfed and Pistol Whip turns to crap.

Yet they don’t acknowledge this imbalance due to their “fixes” and bring Pistol Whip back to when it was balanced.

They definitely do #1, but time and time again make changes on the all the wrong places. Identifying that Haste was the problem all along should trigger an automatic roll back on Pistol Whip — but no, they like the overnerf.

Just like how they made Smiter’s Boon cost 25e with 90s CD in GW1 — same people who made that nerf in GW1 are destroying GW2 now.

Updated thread with recent patch nerfs. Let me know if I missed anything.

aw I do miss Ink Shot .. and that Descent of Shadows stacking ..
wonderful travelling tools.
can see why they were nerfed, but they were fun!

and nice compilation, one should view this more as a “nostalgia” thread than a platform for complaints.

You forgot to add Last Refuge now has a 60s cd from 90s. Guaranteed death at 25% hp 33% more often is a nerf.

Cloak and Dagger: The player can no longer use this ability stack stealth by attacking WvW walls.

This wasnt actually a nerf. It was a bug fix. Before this fix you could spam CnD on a WvW wall and stack stealth (+3/4 seconds per use). It gave you the revealed debuff icon when you spammed CnD, but it didnt remove you from stealth or prevent you from reentering stealth when you hit the wall.

At no point did they remove the ability to gain stealth by using CnD on a wall in WvW. They simply made it work correctly by eliminating the ability to stack stealth by spamming CnD before stealth wore off.

randomfightfan.4091:

You forgot to add Last Refuge now has a 60s cd from 90s. Guaranteed death at 25% hp 33% more often is a nerf.

And ya, this.

Malkavian.3751:

June 25, 2013

• Body Shot: Decreased the vulnerability duration to 3 seconds.
• Cluster Bomb: Decreased the range set from 1200 to 900
• Larcenous Strike: Increased the initiative cost to 2.
• Nine Tailed Strike: Increased the initiative cost from 3 to 5.
• Shadow Assault: Increased the initiative cost from 5 to 7.
• Shadow Return (Infiltrator Strike Toggle): This skill is no longer a stun breaker.
• Withdraw: The travel distance underwater has been cut in half to match the land distance.
• Lotus Poison: Can only apply once every 20 seconds per target.

Does anyone see a pattern here? Has anyone noticed that it is taking more and more init to do the things that actually make thief somewhat viable… not that thief is truly viable in most situations… So is it not safe to say that the devs are forcing thieves to take the increased init line? How does that really promote diversity in build?

Converting Skale venom from Weakness to Torment is arguably a nerf given how strong Weakness is now compared to Torment.

Someone said in another thread that Roll for Initiative also got hit with the Withdraw nerf.

I read this crap and 90% of it was fixes for bugged, abused and OP skills. MMMMMHH stack dat stealth on dat wall! and seriously basilisk venom is now BREAKABLE. OH kittenIN BOY I though thieves were allowed to stun you for 3+ seconds if specced and you cant do kitten all about it. Its a themed stun nothing less nothing more you are not some privileged private school student

Epic.3950:

I read this crap and 90% of it was fixes for bugged, abused and OP skills. MMMMMHH stack dat stealth on dat wall! and seriously basilisk venom is now BREAKABLE. OH kittenIN BOY I though thieves were allowed to stun you for 3+ seconds if specced and you cant do kitten all about it. Its a themed stun nothing less nothing more you are not some privileged private school student

Did you read the original post? He didn’t post this to start a discussion of wether we are OP or not. He just wanted to have a complete list of all the patch fixes and/or nerfs that has affected us negatively. So gtfo of our forum.

Epic.3950:

I read this crap and 90% of it was fixes for bugged, abused and OP skills. MMMMMHH stack dat stealth on dat wall! and seriously basilisk venom is now BREAKABLE. OH kittenIN BOY I though thieves were allowed to stun you for 3+ seconds if specced and you cant do kitten all about it. Its a themed stun nothing less nothing more you are not some privileged private school student

Stun break + stability but that’s not an excuse for a 3s stun. Good thing thieves don’t have access to a 3s stun, they don’t even have access to a 2s stun. There is a 1.5s stun on a kitten cd. Tactical strike (sword invis) is a fairly long daze although daze is still easily the most worthless cc skill in the game. You can still move, dodge, and it’s extremely easy to avoid and takes up half the thief ini bar to set up (meaning half the cooldowns on all skills on all weapons are used). As said before, this isn’t a discussion thread. All the points above are nerfs so they belong in a nerf list. There’s a bunch that weren’t even put into this thread b/c they were more bug fixes than nerfs. All these are more nerfs than bug fixes. Please cool the rage.

Personally, from my point of view, stealth classes can be done right, this game however needs serious traiting on stealth to be useful at all. The people constantly crying about stealth: go try Aion, WoW, SW:TOR then come back and say stealth is OP xD It lasts only 3s or 4s IF traited… thats barely enough to do anything, let alone be a true sneak class -_- Plus, a lot of thieves nowdays use the evasion line more then the stealth line. Why? Because stealth is really only useful for backstab builds X) Sword and pistol + SB just dont cope well with stealth since the stealth dmg is not that high compared to dagger. Plus, not everybody likes the positional backstab build, especially in PvE.

As for the thread: it is nice to see the list of what happened so far I’ve missed a few when I stopped playin for a few month x)
I still dont get it why people crying about the thief class in general. In PvE they are not welcome in dungeon or fractal runs (not much support + current W/G/M or Ele meta) in WvW we are good skirmishers but absolute crap in big engagements (especially with the range nerf now on bomb). sPvP and tPvP… for some time I can’t see many people talk about bringing a thief.
So… why is the cry? Its a common thing on forum posts nowdays that “bring a warrior/guardian/ele/mes instead of thief any day” :P If we were so effective, I dont think I would see that mentality :P True for both pvp and pve ^^