Guild Wars 2

samanosuke.4508:

^ just took the S/P out for a spin and I agree that PW is pretty nice now. It’ll probably go nicely with sundering strikes – time to tinker!

Quick Pockets (init on weapon swap) has had a stealth nerf: 4 > 3 init.

It has always been 3

Vile.5678:

I just wanted to say, as a long time S/P thief, the new PW is pretty solid.

good luck with sword #2 you’r gonna need it.

I already switched from S/D to S/P before the patch hit.

Definately looking forward to the new pistol whip…

Sizzle Hint.1820:

samanosuke.4508:

^ just took the S/P out for a spin and I agree that PW is pretty nice now. It’ll probably go nicely with sundering strikes – time to tinker!

Quick Pockets (init on weapon swap) has had a stealth nerf: 4 > 3 init.

It has always been 3

Ah my mistake, sorry. I had gotten it mixed up with hastened replenishment (4 init on heal).

samanosuke.4508:

^ just took the S/P out for a spin and I agree that PW is pretty nice now. It’ll probably go nicely with sundering strikes – time to tinker!

Quick Pockets (init on weapon swap) has had a stealth nerf: 4 > 3 init.

in tpvp or pve? sp is totally broken at competitive lvl of play.

Really happy that they stuck to their guns on the cheese specs. Underwhelmed by the initiative performance. Worse than was led to believe.

I have been planning on switching to S/P full-time in anticipation of this patch (30/30/0/0/10, Lyssa Runes), so I’m looking forward to the new Pistol Whip, which will be paired with the upgraded Sundering Strikes and perhaps Basilisk.

Sanduskel.1850:

Really happy that they stuck to their guns on the cheese specs. Underwhelmed by the initiative performance. Worse than was led to believe.

Really? Gosh! If only just one thief somewhere had mentioned how flat of a change and a cap on high crit thieves this was, you might have been expecting it.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

Really happy that they stuck to their guns on the cheese specs. Underwhelmed by the initiative performance. Worse than was led to believe.

Really? Gosh! If only just one thief somewhere had mentioned how flat of a change and a cap on high crit thieves this was, you might have been expecting it.

I know I said on day 1 this was at best break-even, but not a buff when Crovax first questioned me on this.

At that time I hadn’t run any sort of theorycrafting at all. It’s fairly obvious to any power thieves how significant opportunist nerf is.

Even the devs said it’s not a buff when you use opportunist – and every non-condi thief uses it.

vincecontix.1264:

samanosuke.4508:

^ just took the S/P out for a spin and I agree that PW is pretty nice now. It’ll probably go nicely with sundering strikes – time to tinker!

Quick Pockets (init on weapon swap) has had a stealth nerf: 4 > 3 init.

in tpvp or pve? sp is totally broken at competitive lvl of play.

I’ve been using it in tPvP. I’m not of the level to judge the set’s competitiveness, but the faster swords result in better damage, and the faster init regen means it isn’t/doesn’t seem as ‘expensive’ to use.

vincecontix.1264:

samanosuke.4508:

^ just took the S/P out for a spin and I agree that PW is pretty nice now. It’ll probably go nicely with sundering strikes – time to tinker!

Quick Pockets (init on weapon swap) has had a stealth nerf: 4 > 3 init.

in tpvp or pve? sp is totally broken at competitive lvl of play.

I’m playing it in tPvP, even before this patch and after previous patch. It’s not an easy weapon to use but I did get my rank up to 580 (only a casual pvp’er, so i’m happy with that rank). The current buff makes it deal more damage, though the original nerf (duration stun lower) is still there. I use it to for devourer’s venom though. Start with PW, if it connects immediately cast devourer’s and your enemy is stuck for 5s.

I’ve tried Inflitrator’s Return and I must say they’ve nerfed this skill in the absolute worst possible way. They could have put the shadowstep at the start of the cast but no. Now S/x users are stuck there for 250ms, completely open to interruption. IR is now completely useless against any skill in the game with a 1/4 second or less cast time, most importantly the interrupts. S/D is but a husk of what it once was.

Lulz, what on earth are you expecting to interrupt a 0.25 cast time on reaction? Are you fighting Jesus? It’s four times faster than HiS.

Interceptor.2653:

Lulz, what on earth are you expecting to interrupt a 0.25 cast time on reaction? Are you fighting Jesus? It’s four times faster than HiS.

The thing is, if you’re using IR, it’s in reaction to an incoming attack. This is no longer possible against 1/4 second skills. You’ll attempt to escape coming stun but it’ll hit before you can get away.

Interceptor.2653:

Lulz, what on earth are you expecting to interrupt a 0.25 cast time on reaction? Are you fighting Jesus? It’s four times faster than HiS.

As in its much less effective to use it relatively. Lets use the new skullcrack as an example. By the time you include the time to recognize the animation, your time to react to it, and any associated latency along the way, skull crack will likely interrupt the cast time of this skill.

Dual.8953:

The thing is, if you’re using IR, it’s in reaction to an incoming attack. This is no longer possible against 1/4 second skills. You’ll attempt to escape coming stun but it’ll hit before you can get away.

That’s not what the skill is for. You have evades and utility skills if you need to dodge something instantly on reaction. Not to mention that what you said isn’t even true: what horrendously dangerous 0.25s skills are you talking about? Most of the truly dangerous moves are 0.75s and are telegraphed.

Interceptor.2653:

Dual.8953:

The thing is, if you’re using IR, it’s in reaction to an incoming attack. This is no longer possible against 1/4 second skills. You’ll attempt to escape coming stun but it’ll hit before you can get away.

That’s not what the skill is for. You have evades and utility skills if you need to dodge something instantly on reaction. Not to mention that what you said isn’t even true: what horrendously dangerous 0.25s skills are you talking about? Most of the truly dangerous moves are 0.75s and are telegraphed.

1)What is the skill for then if not escaping?
2)True 1/4 sec and instant stuns aren’t plentiful, but 1/2 sec stuns are common almost as dangerous and they can lead to even stronger CCs
3)Have you even tried using IR? Pre and post patch? Can you honestly say adding this cast time hasn’t truly removed a large chunk of its applications?

Dual.8953:

1)What is the skill for then if not escaping?
2)True 1/4 sec and instant stuns aren’t plentiful, but 1/2 sec stuns are common almost as dangerous and they can lead to even stronger CCs
3)Have you even tried using IR? Pre and post patch? Can you honestly say adding this cast time hasn’t truly removed a large chunk of its applications?

1) Whatever you can make happen. I use it to dodge dangerous moves, and to create space.
2) Name one. Warriors have a 0.75s stun, which you should be able to avoid unless you are on dial-up and/or have slow reaction time. And if either of those things are true, use a proper stun-breaker.
3) Of course it’s removed certain applications: BY DESIGN. On purpose. Why on earth should you be able to juke everything as long as you have initiative? At some point ought not the Sword Thief have some counterplay?

Sincerely,

An IoJ Thief, who just noticed that your server has been pooping on people for months, and has no sympathy for you.

Interceptor.2653:

Dual.8953:

1)What is the skill for then if not escaping?
2)True 1/4 sec and instant stuns aren’t plentiful, but 1/2 sec stuns are common almost as dangerous and they can lead to even stronger CCs
3)Have you even tried using IR? Pre and post patch? Can you honestly say adding this cast time hasn’t truly removed a large chunk of its applications?

2) Name one. Warriors have a 0.75s stun, which you should be able to avoid unless you are on dial-up and/or have slow reaction time. And if either of those things are true, use a proper stun-breaker.

As I mentioned and you ignored, the new skull crack has a high chance of interrupting this now.

There were many other suggestions as to how to increase counterplay without neutering the playstyle over the past month 2 of the most prominent of which were decreasing the return range and decreasing the available time of the rollover skill. This may have left the skill on par with mesmer staff and sword.

Well this added cooldown to shadow return alters S/d play-style the last time they did this was with the 4sec reveal (which got swapped back because it changed the way the thief played) wonder how long we have to wait this time.
please make it quick this time anet my thief is kinda glassy he can’t tank much dust.

Don’t forget that by having a casting time, the skill now gets queued behind whatever you are already doing, so even if you react in time, you have to add to those 0.25 seconds whatever time it takes to complete your current action.

In other words, you are no longer able to use this skill reactively. Infiltrator’s return is now nothing more than a burden that you have to pay in order to use infiltrator’s strike again.

Maugetarr.6823:

As I mentioned and you ignored, the new skull crack has a high chance of interrupting this now.

And as I said, that’s what your stun-breaker is for. It’s nonsense for Sword #2 to negate this forever as long as initiative holds out. Why shouldn’t we have to burn a cooldown to get away from the Warrior profession mechanic?

Infiltrator’s Return Issues
MADAIR.1948

Hello Just wanted to bring something to everyone’s attention. So I’m a dedicated sword dagger thief. I love sword dagger, it’s my fav assassin build I’ve played in any mmo so far. “A master of stepping through shadow’s” “the Shadow Warrior”.

I understand the need for a nerf to infiltrator’s strike. A spammable stunbreak/condi strip/ teleport /escape I mean THAT’s strong. Keep in mind we thieves once caught are easily dispatched but never the less a spammable stun break is too strong ok, I agree. However you put a small cast time on it. I was worried this would be an issue with escaping the many speedy burst combo’s in the game, I logged in and tried it and it was cutting it close in my opinion but I didn’t complain. But then I realized after using it in live combat that it’s a self interupt. I was actually killed a few times. Not because I couldn’t break a stun but because I was repeatedly interupting my self from awesome combo’s we used to do with inf strike.

Here are a few things I we can’t do anymore do to the cast time:

1. Infiltrator’s return while mid cast on heal to juke the enemy trying to interupt.

Sometimes I’m being bum rushed while I heal so I fake them out and stand there casting as they rush in and then teleport.

2. Inf return dodge combo.
Sometimes people like to be real funny and put traps and wells or do 100b etc.on my return circle so dodging into return can help counter that if I’m paying attention.

3. inf return while casting cloak and dagger when I see someone waiting on top of my return.

I love doing this one and imo it takes skill and timing and is very rewarding when someone walks across your return circle and you port back and catch then with the tail end of your cloak and dagger.

4. Inf Return while mid cast on shadow refuge.
Another fun use of return, fun things like a team mate is about to be stomped next to your return and you start cast of refuge and and return stealthing him just in time and starting a revive.

5. inf returning while in flanking strike
Another way to return while dodging and a good way to conceal the follow up of larcenous strike

6. inf returning while mid cast on a venom to juke enemy from interupt.

Again sometimes starting the cast and then porting can confuse the enemy and cause them to hesitate on interrupt or to bum rush your current location thinking they’ll catch you in time because cast finishes.

These are all broken by the cast time that’s been implemented. I have a feeling maybe this wasn’t foreseen but it’s been turned into a self interupt which is gamebreaking in swordplay. Again I understand no being able to teleport while stunned but the cast time effects many things and combos not just stunbreaking.

It just feels clumsy and awkward and broken. It was a fluid dance of blades before. Poetry in motion (lol).

Thank you for your time and anyone plz feel free to add to it fellow thieves.

Also if you use sp and someone is standing on the infiltrators strike circle you could pre-cast pistol wip or black powder and IR back and hit them.

This nerf reduced the creativity and skill cellling what of a good player can do.

…
1. return does in fact have a counter. since its hard to figure out here we go. interrupt any thief skill after they infiltrators strike this will clear there return point.
2. Other classes can in fact pre load skills and teleport take sanctuary + judges intervention for instances.
3. Our initiative is are Cool Down , since we can return at best 3 times then we are left with auto attack, a warrior was quite capable of catching a thief even When Shadow return had a Stun Breaker on it.

You snuck that post in there vince i was referring to the points interceptor made

Interceptor.2653:

Maugetarr.6823:

As I mentioned and you ignored, the new skull crack has a high chance of interrupting this now.

And as I said, that’s what your stun-breaker is for. It’s nonsense for Sword #2 to negate this forever as long as initiative holds out. Why shouldn’t we have to burn a cooldown to get away from the Warrior profession mechanic?

Because we need to go glass and to stay engaged if we want to kill a warrior with the sword. If we hit and run, the warrior will just shrug off our damage. Hardly fair considering they can wreck us while staying tanky cc machines. We can’t burst warriors to death so we have to go balls to the wall the outsustain them.

Interceptor.2653:

Maugetarr.6823:

As I mentioned and you ignored, the new skull crack has a high chance of interrupting this now.

And as I said, that’s what your stun-breaker is for. It’s nonsense for Sword #2 to negate this forever as long as initiative holds out. Why shouldn’t we have to burn a cooldown to get away from the Warrior profession mechanic?

A stunbreak every 8 seconds then, huh? The juke would have only prevented 1 or 2 hits if they had reduced the range and would not have even broken the stun. Again this would have put it just on par with mesmers, hardly making us the unequivocal masters of shadowstepping.

Maugetarr.6823:

A stunbreak every 8 seconds then, huh? The juke would have only prevented 1 or 2 hits if they had reduced the range and would not have even broken the stun. Again this would have put it just on par with mesmers, hardly making us the unequivocal masters of shadowstepping.

A stunbreak every time you want to get out of being smashed in the face by Crack, yes. It’s not the only counter-measure, but it’s the one that most closely reflects what you want Sword #2 to do.

Evading the stun with Sword #2 is nearly as bad as just breaking it.

Dual.8953:

Because we need to go glass and to stay engaged if we want to kill a warrior with the sword. If we hit and run, the warrior will just shrug off our damage. Hardly fair considering they can wreck us while staying tanky cc machines. We can’t burst warriors to death so we have to go balls to the wall the outsustain them.

I have bad news; you may want to sit down.

Your chosen spec isn’t going to be effective against everything. There are a lot of opponents out there. Some days you are going to be the bird, some days you’ll be the statue. Life sucks, and then you die. Your implied request to be able to handle everything, cannot be accommodated, due to balance considerations. I am sorry.

The nice thing is that Skull Crack is now easier to see coming/avoid, and the CC chain does less damage, so this matchup is not as bad as it used to be for a Sword Thief.

Played for a few hours today. Not nearly as bad as it looked on paper. Some areas improved.

Interceptor.2653:

Maugetarr.6823:

A stunbreak every 8 seconds then, huh? The juke would have only prevented 1 or 2 hits if they had reduced the range and would not have even broken the stun. Again this would have put it just on par with mesmers, hardly making us the unequivocal masters of shadowstepping.

A stunbreak every time you want to get out of being smashed in the face by Crack, yes. It’s not the only counter-measure, but it’s the one that most closely reflects what you want Sword #2 to do.

Evading the stun with Sword #2 is nearly as bad as just breaking it.

Not even close though as the stun lasts 3 seconds (more with sigils). Reducing the range or reducing the availability of the window (or both) would have allowed for counterplay without nerfing the evasive capability of the weapon. It’s not as if phase retreat or swap on mesmer weapon skills break counterplay. If fact the production of clones cause the hit to still occur using the warrior to lose the passive benefits of storing adrenaline. My point is that at worst the skill should have been brought in line with similar skills.

Sanduskel.1850:

…Underwhelmed by the initiative performance. Worse than was led to believe.

“If we’ve lost Cronkite, we’ve lost the war”

Maugetarr.6823:

Not even close though as the stun lasts 3 seconds (more with sigils).

Nonsense. Your hyperbole is rejected. Being able to create space was a big advantage, even if it doesn’t break the stun or stuff the entire duration. You put nothing on cooldown, here. That’s a powerful counter.

Reducing the range or reducing the availability of the window (or both) would have allowed for counterplay without nerfing the evasive capability of the weapon.

I don’t care about imaginary situations. There are only two that exist in reality: Sword #2 pre-patch, and Sword #2 post-patch.

Interceptor.2653:

Maugetarr.6823:

Not even close though as the stun lasts 3 seconds (more with sigils).

Nonsense. Your hyperbole is rejected. Being able to create space was a big advantage, even if it doesn’t break the stun or stuff the entire duration. You put nothing on cooldown, here. That’s a powerful counter.

Reducing the range or reducing the availability of the window (or both) would have allowed for counterplay without nerfing the evasive capability of the weapon.

I don’t care about imaginary situations. There are only two that exist in reality: Sword #2 pre-patch, and Sword #2 post-patch.

1) That is not hyperbole, that is the actual skill: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skull_Crack

2)Phase retreat exists so it’s not an imaginary situation. It’s (now even more easily) traitable to a 6 second cool down. The old sword #2 actually had more counterplay as an enemy who knew how to fight you could fight on top of your original IS location only 600 units away whereas phase retreat teleports you directly away with no need to set up a location ahead of the fight.

Swap (the mesmer sword rollover skill) has less available uptime and has a true stunbreak on it and ia hardly OP. It’s what allows mesmers to stay in close combat in addition to their stunbreaks and other tricks.

Calling my arguments straw men and offering false dilemmas is not going to help your argument.

Maugetarr.6823:

1) That is not hyperbole

“Not even close” is the hyperbole. That should have been obvious from context, but I’ll be painfully clear about this for you in the future.

2)Phase retreat exists so it’s not an imaginary situation.

Phase retreat is not a Thief skill. The imaginary situation that I was referencing, was the alternate reality where the developers implemented your suggestion. That did not happen. We only have pre-patch #2, and post-patch #2.

[…] not going to help your argument.

This is not a debate.

The extra initiative (my SoM zergbunker d/d build didn’t use INI traits before, and still doesn’t.) Isn’t as game changing as advertised. I notice it, but only when I’m staring at the initiative bar. In practice it doesn’t increase the number of attacks I can reasonably chain or adapt to, unless I’m shotgun spamming cluster bomb.

The Healing increase on the newly master-tier assassin’s reward is laughable. Respeccing to keep the trait, I quickly discovered I’m gaining single digit point gains, or, if I were to actually measure it (can’t, don’t have the screenshotted heal numbers from before) less per entire bar spent of initiative than a single strike of signet of malice. SoM returns me ~140 per strike with my life sigil charged and my gear. An entire bar of initiative is returning what seems like 50 more HP.

50 more HP is not justification for a grandmaster trait, just because I could theoretically heal more over an extended period. Fights in this game don’t last long enough for that difference to be perceptible in any way.

The new venom is interesting, but lacks utility. It’s nice to have a pure big numbers heal option, but the long cooldown hurts its usability. IMO the requirement to hit targets is enough of a limitation. Maybe move some more of the heal to on-hit and shorten the cooldown and it will be a bit more useful outside of venom share specs. As it is it can’t hold a candle to SoM sustain, and isn’t a good option for the lower HP thieves most likely to need a large enough chunk of HP to use it. The lack of utility it grants seems like a double negative when also requiring the user to engage targets in order to fully benefit from the larger heal. Something has to give. Either it need more sustain, more base heal, or a shorter CD, otherwise the people using utiltiy heals won’t find it attractive, and the people using SoM won’t find the potentially shorter term sustain worth the cooldown of risk.

I can already get a nice chunk of HP and experience a period of risky cooldown with SoM, but SoM’s version works much more intutively. Get sustain, lose sustain when using panic heal. The inverse of using panic heal (in a much riskier/lower HP situation) and then get some sustain isn’t as useful. If I just healed for that about I don’t need the four strikes of sustain. I might need the sustain afterward because I’m still getting wailed on by whatever made me use the heal, but I can’t use it that way.

Basically, it does the same job as SoM, but in a less intuitive and useful way. Its only practical use is venom share, which has much larger problems as “the support build” than a lack of support heals. Arguably too niche to justify existing.

Honestly I’d be happy with the alterations to initiative regen versus traits if our other survival traits (like assassin’s reward, hard to catch, pain response, etc.) were buffed more to compensate.

I also think thieves should get a “free pass” on the gamewide vigor nerf as evasion is what our class has in stead of wide access to regen, protection, a larger HP pool, or aegis. In fact, traiting for perma-vigor should be brainless with 30 points in acrobatics and the proper trait selection. It’s called acrobatics. It’s a like about avoiding damage via dodging it. Why there aren’t more selectable vigor traits to round out a permavigor in the one trait line in the entire game that seems tailor made to hand out vigor like candy I just don’t understand.

I would happily give up card to catch/pain response for vigor on disable, or crit, or any other option that doesn’t require me to use a heal skill, as that’s basically saying “when you’re already beat up you can then get more endurance.”

That’s not when I need vigor. I need vgiro to keep that situation from happening in the first place. Bountiful theft is an odd place for it (honestly, bountiful theft should just properly steal boon stacks and lose the vigor) and it would be much better off as an offensive action>vigor somewhere in acrobatics.

Interceptor.2653:

Maugetarr.6823:

1) That is not hyperbole

“Not even close” is the hyperbole. That should have been obvious from context, but I’ll be painfully clear about this for you in the future.

2)Phase retreat exists so it’s not an imaginary situation.

Phase retreat is not a Thief skill. The imaginary situation that I was referencing, was the alternate reality where the developers implemented your suggestion. That did not happen. We only have pre-patch #2, and post-patch #2.

[…] not going to help your argument.

This is not a debate.

1) Fair enough

2) Mesmers use the same magic and have very similar mechanics. Simply because it is not a thief skill does not mean that the two aren’t comparable when looking at consistency within balance across the game. My point was that my suggestion was based on similar skills that already exist within the game which have not been changed and are not gamebreaking.

3) You contend that the change to sword was justified. I contend that it wasn’t (especially in the manner they did it). Debate follows as a cause of discussing your view of the matter.

i hate how much hate the thief gets for no reason and we don’t even have our stun breaker any more which is messed up to the max . i would not even be on this forum if they did not destroy our sword class but they r nerfing our class to nothing . mesmers r so op but don’t get the same hate for some reason even though they r better than the thief . its just no one wants to play the lame butterfly class…. it is sad i spent all this time getting ascend gear for my thief to have it turned in to a lame support class . i will be quitting this game soon because i can’t play my class i put all this work in it and it is sad that our class gets nerfed because of a hand full of skilled players and the people who cry every time they get there rampage ended by a thief ! i guess i will just stop playing till black desert comes out .unless they fix the sword for the thief i will not be playing much lol . and i was all excited for the winter update because i missed the first one . did not have the game yet ! lol i guess i am just trying to get my class back before i quit ! i mean i don’t come crying to the forums every time a engine kills me with bomb kits or a mesmer kills me bu blowing up all its clones or what ever ! i don’t cry and say that is op … every class should be able to do a outnumbered fight if played right! and no class should be forced to be just a support class … the nerf to infiltrate strike is total over kill …. i don’t even want to know what will get nerfed on the thief next lol but the way people cry about it i know it will be nerf nerf nerf ..

xmtrcv.5236:

Thief
>We have also reduced the effectiveness of high-evasion thieves by reducing vigor uptime and adding some cast time to the Shadow Return skill on the sword. This prevents thieves from evading and easily dealing with being disabled (stun, daze, fear, knockdown, etc.).
>Also, we are trying to improve the survivability of thieves in the Acrobatics line

…wat?

xmtrcv.5236:

Thief
>We have also reduced the effectiveness of high-evasion thieves by reducing vigor uptime and adding some cast time to the Shadow Return skill on the sword. This prevents thieves from evading and easily dealing with being disabled (stun, daze, fear, knockdown, etc.).
>Also, we are trying to improve the survivability of thieves in the Acrobatics line

Cognitive dissonance at it’s worst

Maugetarr.6823:

Interceptor.2653:

Maugetarr.6823:

1) That is not hyperbole

“Not even close” is the hyperbole. That should have been obvious from context, but I’ll be painfully clear about this for you in the future.

2)Phase retreat exists so it’s not an imaginary situation.

Phase retreat is not a Thief skill. The imaginary situation that I was referencing, was the alternate reality where the developers implemented your suggestion. That did not happen. We only have pre-patch #2, and post-patch #2.

[…] not going to help your argument.

This is not a debate.

1) Fair enough

2) Mesmers use the same magic and have very similar mechanics. Simply because it is not a thief skill does not mean that the two aren’t comparable when looking at consistency within balance across the game. My point was that my suggestion was based on similar skills that already exist within the game which have not been changed and are not gamebreaking.

3) You contend that the change to sword was justified. I contend that it wasn’t (especially in the manner they did it). Debate follows as a cause of discussing your view of the matter.

2) Mesmer’s Staff 2 skill, Phase Retreat, has a 6 or 8 second cooldown depending on if the mesmer took the Staff CD reduction trait or not. Very different from thieves that could use their shadowstep/teleport 3 or 4 times back-to-back (depending on their initiative traits). Phase Retreat spawns a clone but it doesn’t cure a condition like the thief’s Sword 2. All things considered, even with the cast-time, Thief Sword 2 is still arguably quite good. Only difference is that some thieves don’t like that they can’t cheese spam their way out of stun moves now.

EVERY class has to deal with stuns in some form. Use a breaker or stop spamming dodge rolls and roll defensively… i.e. when you’re actually being attacked. If a move like Skull Crack is being telegraphed, instead of relying on a crutch like Sword 2, use your endurance tactically and save a dodge roll for when you’re in the warrior’s face. Sword 2 is meant to be a tool to control distance and assist sustainability by clearing a condition, not as a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card for when you’re not paying attention to what your opponent is doing like you should be.

I still play my thief as a 0/30/30/0/10 P/P + D/D stealth backstabber. I never took the initiative traits or S/P or S/D to begin with. I rely on my quick reflexes to dodge slower attacks and gap control (like Shadowstep) to avoid faster attacks and deal damage at range if I’m fighting a meleer. I’m certainly not the best thief player ever (I’m much more experienced with my warrior and mesmer builds), but I certainly can at least put up a good fight. Personally, I didn’t really notice the changes for this patch because none of the changes really affected my build in the first place.

CrazyAce.3842:

Maugetarr.6823:

Interceptor.2653:

Maugetarr.6823:

1) That is not hyperbole

“Not even close” is the hyperbole. That should have been obvious from context, but I’ll be painfully clear about this for you in the future.

2)Phase retreat exists so it’s not an imaginary situation.

Phase retreat is not a Thief skill. The imaginary situation that I was referencing, was the alternate reality where the developers implemented your suggestion. That did not happen. We only have pre-patch #2, and post-patch #2.

[…] not going to help your argument.

This is not a debate.

1) Fair enough

2) Mesmers use the same magic and have very similar mechanics. Simply because it is not a thief skill does not mean that the two aren’t comparable when looking at consistency within balance across the game. My point was that my suggestion was based on similar skills that already exist within the game which have not been changed and are not gamebreaking.

3) You contend that the change to sword was justified. I contend that it wasn’t (especially in the manner they did it). Debate follows as a cause of discussing your view of the matter.

2) Mesmer’s Staff 2 skill, Phase Retreat, has a 6 or 8 second cooldown depending on if the mesmer took the Staff CD reduction trait or not. Very different from thieves that could use their shadowstep/teleport 3 or 4 times back-to-back (depending on their initiative traits). Phase Retreat spawns a clone but it doesn’t cure a condition like the thief’s Sword 2. All things considered, even with the cast-time, Thief Sword 2 is still arguably quite good. Only difference is that some thieves don’t like that they can’t cheese spam their way out of stun moves now.

EVERY class has to deal with stuns in some form. Use a breaker or stop spamming dodge rolls and roll defensively… i.e. when you’re actually being attacked. If a move like Skull Crack is being telegraphed, instead of relying on a crutch like Sword 2, use your endurance tactically and save a dodge roll for when you’re in the warrior’s face. Sword 2 is meant to be a tool to control distance and assist sustainability by clearing a condition, not as a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card for when you’re not paying attention to what your opponent is doing like you should be.

I still play my thief as a 0/30/30/0/10 P/P + D/D stealth backstabber. I never took the initiative traits or S/P or S/D to begin with. I rely on my quick reflexes to dodge slower attacks and gap control (like Shadowstep) to avoid faster attacks and deal damage at range if I’m fighting a meleer. I’m certainly not the best thief player ever (I’m much more experienced with my warrior and mesmer builds), but I certainly can at least put up a good fight. Personally, I didn’t really notice the changes for this patch because none of the changes really affected my build in the first place.

The difference is many of those classes have some form of stability or other mitigation. While stability is up the pkayer can tank theirvway through any number of chain stuns while the thief had to pay per stun. Also there was nothing stopping the opposing player from walking over to your cast point (only 600 units away) totally negating the skill’s utility as it did not actually break the stun, just moved you. If they wanted to improve counterplay they could have also displayed the return circle to the opponent like shadow step does. Had they also shortened the availability of the return, it would have also led to more counterplay as to maintain the return you’d have to port back to reset the return point more frequently, either taking pressure off your opponent or losing ground while capping a point.

I also play D/D thief and have since they removed the second steal from LS making it incapable of getting past the cover boons of a bunker. D/X has better burst and better wear down capabilities now through the buff to the poison on autoattack. S/X has lost a fair amount of its utility and it doesn’t have the burst to make up for it.

Maugetarr.6823:

Mesmers use the same magic and have very similar mechanics.

Cross-class comparisons are a fool’s errand. Mesmers don’t use an initiative system, for one. Thief needs to be balanced within itself.

You contend that the change to sword was justified. I contend that it wasn’t (especially in the manner they did it). Debate follows as a cause of discussing your view of the matter.

I mean that I’m not trying to change your mind, I am just pointing out that you are very wrong. This is not a debate. You can tell this, by the fact that I’m ignoring/dismissing the vast majority of your posts.

Maugetarr.6823:

S/X has lost a fair amount of its utility and it doesn’t have the burst to make up for it.

Sword/Pistol has decent burst post-patch. The effective DPS of Pistol Whip has gone up as a result of shaving 0.25 off the aftercast of the stun, and you’re now highly likely to activate Quickness during the flurry of 9 hits thanks to Critical Haste’s proc chance going from 10→25% on crit.