Guild Wars 2

kitten . Every target I kill is a phantom and I’m not even glass cannon, yet they burn through me like godkitten butter. Granted I’m no pro, I’m not terribly inadequate either and I have all but lost any desire to thief spvp with mesmers present – god forbid if there’s two running around together – it’s a kittening army. I will happily accept “you suck”, as I wouldn’t deny it – but I would love some helpful insight.

what kind of weapon are you using when you are fighting a mesmer? and how do you fight them exactly? there are simple things you could practice so you can stomp them in the face.

I won’t say “you suck” because I fully agree with you. A well played Phantom Mesmer always gets me. I always feel like a noob when fighting them and there’s no shame on admitting it.

What I’ve learned in my experience is to…

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I won’t say “you suck” because I fully agree with you. A well played Phantom Mesmer always gets me. I always feel like a noob when fighting them and there’s no shame on admitting it.

What I’ve learned in my experience is to…

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…RUN AWAY AS FAR AS YOU CAN WHILE CRYING OUT MOMMY!!!

lolol, ill agree to some extent with you there, mesmers are pretty annoying, and dangerous, but there is always something you can do to pick out the real one instead of clones also, in some builds, mesmers actually help you beat themselves by giving you clones XD

Haha. Cheers!

GTFO has been pretty much my line of action recently and I’ve been trying a few things since being away for a couple months. I’ve settled into enjoying http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c333R;0Zw-1-J5R-Fd0;9;49;0TT2;617A46C5wW0U;1G3G3G3G39BD and I have no complaints thus far save vs those godkitten phantoms.

For the most part I stack a bit of might, p/d #3 to the target, #5, stealth/bs, poke around a bit, weapon swap, dance around a few death blossoms to get my health up, blind, steatlth away out of any aoe and rinse/repeat depending on the dynamics of the situation. and I’m able to handle even up to two at a time if they’re not very skilled or coordinated (and I do pretty kitten good dmg for the most part). but those kittening phantoms seem to be unlimited and even click-targeting as soon as I get a hit or two in the kitten will decoy and pop – there he goes again amongst the crowd of relentless and ceaseless copies. lol.

QQ

well, the problem is you have no aoe, your using both daggers where you should be using at least one aoe move, sb for ease and range, and sword for damage but its a bit more risky but here are some things you should start practicing vs mesmers

1. look at the enemy movement, is one of them strafing, backpedaling, dodging? the clones are mere NPCs and as such move nothing like a human player.
2. look for buffs, buffs are a great way to tell which one is which.
3. stealth, you should try stealthing and staying among the clones so you have a target for cnd again, and wait out the enemy stealth.
4. like i said before, aoe, even caltrops will help as the clones stand in caltrops and get hella bleeds.
5. youve gotta be quick, and know what you can and cant do, if you steal from a clone, there is a good chance you will get a blind and stealth steal ability, use that to your advantage.
6. if you loose the real mesmer in a fight easy, try putting a target on their head.

hope these will help you fight mesmers a lot better XD

Solid advice – I had assumed the death blossom would cover enough aoe – i considered it at least on par with sword for this build with the lack of power and increase in bleed dmg, even regarding swords lack of need for energy to fuel aoe – and it seemed to work well enough in dispensing but the clones don’t stop popping! I’ll play around swapping with s/b and sword and see if either of those fit right. But excellent insight regarding the distinction and approach, very much appreciated!

If you’re using D/D you can time CnD to hit right when stealth ends and crowd surf the clones/phantasms. Try to hit the phantasms as they are damaging, but don’t try to CnD of an iZerker because phantasms and clones react right when stealth drops, so he’ll whirl right through you dealing about 4-5k worth of damage and causing you to miss the CnD. You can keep very good pressure up with a good defense till you find the right one, or when he starts to panic and move which points him out nicely. A good mesmer will recognize the pattern and shatter them right before you can CnD so don’t keep it up too long.

With D/P, keep him constantly blind. A phantasm is an attack, and if they are blind, they don’t summon because the attack misses.

Sometimes it’s best to no actually go for a backstab and reveal yourself. A Scepter/Sword mesmer has 2 weapon blocks and depending on how they’re traited can be as low as 8 and 9 seconds, and they hurt. Patience is really key.

When all else fails, as someone else said, range with shortbow and spam CB.

The rest is practice. A well played mesmser is probably one of the hardest things to beat as a thief.

Archaeos.3420:

Solid advice – I had assumed the death blossom would cover enough aoe – i considered it at least on par with sword for this build with the lack of power and increase in bleed dmg, even regarding swords lack of need for energy to fuel aoe – and it seemed to work well enough in dispensing but the clones don’t stop popping! I’ll play around swapping with s/b and sword and see if either of those fit right. But excellent insight regarding the distinction and approach, very much appreciated!

nope DB isnt great in the fact that you 1 waste initiative to try and spam bleeds, and 2 it doesent cripple the clones to keep them bleeding long enough, caltrops works wonders, and with your build, if you have SoM on, the trops will heal you when they hit the clones for every tick they apply bleeding and cripple.

Maugetarr.6823:

If you’re using D/D you can time CnD to hit right when stealth ends and crowd surf the clones/phantasms.

Be mindful when using this tactic since you might find yourself having a health stack of different conditions.

Maugetarr.6823:

With D/P, keep him constantly blind. A phantasm is an attack, and if they are blind, they don’t summon because the attack misses.
.

Didn’t even consider that. O.O

Scribbles.3974:

nope DB isnt great in the fact that you 1 waste initiative to try and spam bleeds, and 2 it doesent cripple the clones to keep them bleeding long enough, caltrops works wonders, and with your build, if you have SoM on, the trops will heal you when they hit the clones for every tick they apply bleeding and cripple.

I see, that makes perfect sense. I’ll swap out Inf. Signet for Caltrops and try the S/B out when I’m able to work in a few games tonight, along with the considerations provided by you fine gents.

It’s not only mesmers but warriors too. I think the
only way to handle a Mesmer is blinds on stealth,
u can blind all the mesmers clones at once.
It’s more helpful than healing in stealth.

Now warriors, today I bursted a warrior and it
Only took a quarter of his health. I fought him for
1 and a half mins. I had to hit him 100 times and
Never got him below half health. He hit me maybe
25 times and boom I’m dead.

The war mes and other class r amazing after this
patch and all that happened to the thief is
Furocity nerf. It is so hard for a thief to kill any class
now but other thieves. Anet hates us.

I really can’t see D/D being commonly used now with the 30% crit damage nerf. Just the other day some guy opened with Steal/CnD/Backstab and I was on full zerk gear and it didn’t even one-shot me. Whereas surely before the update I would’ve been toast.

Against condi bunker builds especially, you’d really need to be experienced and knowledgable of your opponent to win. PU mesmers, hambow warriors, necros, engineers, it seems there really isn’t that much D/D can pull off if all else equal. If you didn’t catch them by surprise, you’re up for a prolong fight.

That said, shortbow is usually helpful in getting rid of illusions while being safe yourself.

Use shortbow. That’s all you need against a mesmer.

Clusterbomb them and their clones, and you have an easy access to an evasion for their phantasms. The auto attack is a natural mesmer killer too. Poison is very strong on mesmers, since they have poor condition removal. You also have an on-demand port if you get disabled via immobilize.

What Chicago Jack said. Open from stealth on the mesmer, then swap to shortbow if your burst didn’t kill him, or if he stealths or teleports to gain range. I however try to not cluster bomb shotgun the illusions, because of the conditions on illusion death.

As someone who has played a Mesmer since I got this game, I can tell you that we are not all equal as some of our builds have almost no survival against a decent thief. The trick is to look for the “clone” that is strafing as most players tend to drop a clone and then continue to move like a human, not a clone. A decent Mesmer will try to blend in so that you never have and idea as to which one is real.

With that being said, I find that the D/P Condi (perplexity) builds tend to eat me alive if I’m not careful. The normal D/D builds are predictable as everyone knows you will try to setup a backstab. Against the best Thieves I’ve dueled, normal D/D builds will, at best, drag the fight out but against the build I use and the defensive style I like, its probably not all that effective.

One other idea that I’ve read up on is the P/D + SB build which should work much better against almost all Mesmers. Use the SB to kill off the clones and then the pistol #3 + CnD on the Mesmer. When in stealth, unload and laugh as they try to remove the conditions. Even if you’re not built for conditions, most players will try to clear them before they have any idea that the real damage is coming from normal power.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Use shortbow. That’s all you need against a mesmer.

Clusterbomb them and their clones, and you have an easy access to an evasion for their phantasms. The auto attack is a natural mesmer killer too. Poison is very strong on mesmers, since they have poor condition removal. You also have an on-demand port if you get disabled via immobilize.

I’ve once fought against a mesmer with a shortbow: laid down poison, cluster bomb, trick shot, cluster bomb, more poison, more trick shotting. I must have killed about 10-15 clones and I STILL died, and he STILL was able to cast more. How many can he make?! I have my own Mesmer in PvE and I could never make that many. Ugh, they are so annoying to fight.

just had a couple of fights with a couple mesmers, my mentality during the whole fights was “dont over extend, and keep calm, watch for the human movement and stay next to clones” a couple of times i had to camp stealth with cnd in order to regain some footing, then repoen on them with sneak attack from the pistol. i was running p/d sb condi build, with confusion on steal, melted them pretty good, but i still had to make sure i wasnt overextending. versus a condimancer, i had to camp stealth for nearly the whole fight so i could remove conditions and wait out his condi burst, once his burst was gone he was a sitting duck XD

I’ve used to beat them with classic D/D zerker or with zerker S/D setup. 1-2 nice lockdowns and they are dead or escaping. S/D actually helps alot since its autoattack is aoe(you can still hit them even if you mistakenly hit a clone) and spaming dual skill is enough to beat them before it gets nasty. But I switched to a P/D condi build after the patch and started to experience heavy problems against mesmers. Condition build is nice and saw that it works against nearly every build including bunkers. But Mesmers are another story. First of all they have a natural wall of copies that protects them from non piercing projectiles. Even if you trait piercing projectiles, it gives a %50 chance to hit. If you accept the range fact disadvantage, you should then deal with targeting… Since you need to hit alot more to apply conditions against your target nearly every mesmer including newbies are gonna make you cry.

Other than that use some eveasive and condition cleaning stuff in your build that may help you to beat them since you need both alot in a mesmer fight.

Use shortbow to aoe the phantasms if they get too many up. Phantasm mesmers have to play to your rhythm because you determine when you want to pop out of stealth, and x/d allows you to stealth easily off their clones. With CnD, refuge, blinding powder, and hide in shadows, you should always have a stealth maneuver up.

It seems like D/D is direct counter to mesmer phantasm builds. What if you’re using S/P or D/P?

So over the last couple of days I’ve incorporated the suggestions provided here and with the inclusion of utilizing the recommended build and weapons sets, patience and timing popping in and out of stealth, dismissing summoned clones with the s/b and maintaining a clone-free-environment with upkeep on blinds, I’ve progressed a LOT vs. Mesmer. Granted they are still, and with talented players will always remain to be, a challenge; I no longer feel the rage of “OMG MESMERS ARE GODS QQ”.

I especially appreciate FinalPatriot’s perspective and contribution, as well as Scribbles experiences and thought process. Good on you, sirs!

This is a fine community and I appreciate the constructive criticism and ideas, I am quite impressed with you fine folk. Cheers!

I main a mesmer since launch, and I can tell you that there are two builds that will cause problems… Shatter, and Condi/PU. The phantasm build is not a big deal usually.. you can CnD off them repeatedly, and the clones are actually very helpful for maintaining perma stealth. The challenge is if you come across iDuelist phantasm, you wanna take that out fast before a second one pops out as regardless of which build it’s running it will do tons of dmg (condi builds can stack around 8 stacks of bleed plus crit you for 2k+ per shot). The easiest way to deal with it is dodge roll toward the iDuelist and then CnD off of it. Make sure you have blind on stealth. With d/p it’s even easier… just use black powder ontop of it.. dps down then stealth before the field is out. You can stealth a lot longer than mesmers so use that to find an opening and be patient.

Now about the specific builds.

Shatter mesmers are rough for thieves because they have insane burst (around 10k+ if done right) which leaves you with almost no room for error. On the other hand though they also require a very skilled player to pull off – the avg shatter mesmer is a joke but a seasoned one is extremely tough to deal with.

Condition mesmers (in this case scepter/torch and sword pistol) will rely on the waiting game. They have plenty of stealth and usually setup phantasm + condi burst. Your main concern is dealing with their 5 stacks of torment which in WvW at least can do up to 16k dmg over i think 10s if traited right which is also up every 12s. The avg I believe is 10-12k moving torment dmg plus any other condis applied at the time. This build requires a lot of kiting to do that kind of dmg and is really hard if you dont have ranged weapons or condi clear (use CnD on clones to clean condis in stealth). Also the key to this is easy tho, whenever you see “Block” dodge right after. The reason I’m not talking about any arm movements etc is because what i usually do is stealth and let the thief dps and block in stealth so they cant see my actual action. This move will not pull a mesmer out of stealth if it connects so it’s esp dangerous. Usually ppl think the block comes from the aegis that procs in stealth which is true but sometimes that doesnt always happen.

Staff mesmers are annoying you just need to be patient take out the clones and find an opening for a good backstab.

i find sword/p or s/d works well against mesmers but i personally have never used anything other than d/d and d/p against them. Nor have i even updated my build since maybe oct? I rarely play thief but because I main mesmer it’s relatively easy to deal with. Maybe you should try running mesmer for a few weeks

I get excited seeing mesmers on the opposing side because we as thieves have a class advantage over them. Shortbow is >>> mesmers. Besides that, go glassy and they’ll panic after they lose half their health from your first port in. In spvp I can come in casting LS + mug + 1 autoattack and if both my sigils go off it’s probably around 10k damage nearly instantly.

Hmmm, I wonder what I can contribute with.

In a shatter build I feel it’s hardest vs high burst direct dmg thiefs with evades.

In phantasm spec I feel it’s hardest to fight high stealth uptime, condi pressure and who keep my phantasm output low with blinds.

In condi clone spec I don’t really feel so pressured by thiefs unless it’s a more than one opponent fight, then thief is deadly. Short bow in open world usually make me smile and I not lost a fight vs that tactic in long time in condi build.

Best tactic vs a good Mesmer is basically be a good thief, both classes get a lot of “low skill high reward” on the forum but after some time I say it’s extremely easy to notice when you encounter a good thief, or a good Mesmer.

Manly I find thiefs be the most fun opponents to encounter in open world roaming as if it’s a good one it will give good entertaining. I would not go so far as Hype thu and say thiefs have a class advantage vs mesmers, sure maybe in tpvp due to how the gamemode look but in wvwvw roaming I can say for sure I do not feel like a underdog vs thiefs.

Big change for mesmers vs thiefs last patch was the 3 x use in heal mantra aswell. It’s give 50% more healing and well played it let you keep health up a lot better.

/Osicat