Worst Thief in the world, yes I am.
(edited by Serious Thought.5394)
Minimal effort, Maximum effect
Step 2: Make Preparedness baseline. Replace with Nasty Business. Nasty Business: Stealing to a target reduces your cooldowns by 5% of their remaining cooldowns. This makes Trickery highly desirable BUT not necessary. Just like Daredevil.
I’d rather move Bountiful theft into this slot. They moved boon on attune for eles, this one shouldn’t be that big of a problem. Then the replacement skill for the master level can be “Pistol Shots Pierce. Extend outgoing vuln duration by 33%”
Step 3: Buff the entire Sword set (Including Flanking Strike, Larcenous Strike, Stab, and Pistol Whip). If you are feeling lazy, I believe a 4-8% damage boost would be a good testing ground.
It needs it. I’d rather see the aftercasts reduced because they seem to mess with Flanking strike as was discussed in a different thread.
Step 4: Backstab needs to have more payoff. We know you don’t care when Dragonhunters are busy shooting 4-12k shots from 1200 range that can hit multiple targets. Ignoring EVERYTHING else about them too. Backstab hits 2k front or 4k back on most meta builds as a meta build, its also melee and requires stealth. DH just requires waiting 4s. I’d honestly say a 25-50% boost on this as well as making it unblockable would do absolute wonders.
Making it do more damage and unblockable would probably make it OP. One or the other might be fine.
Step 5: Flanking Strike traits (RENAME THIS GOOD LORD) cooldown reduced to 30 seconds. I’d want more, but then again its not allowed- but 15s icd Ranger/Warrior, 1s icd Revenant, 5s ICD (oh wait…0…) Mesmer/Chronomancer. But ours is 60 seconds. Sigils do better than this trait, most of us just don’t use it.
Haste (flanking strike) and Roll for Initiative should both probably be on 30 seconds CD’s. RFI might need the initiative gain reduced, but it could definitely use some help.
1) Heartseeker modifier bars moved to 66/44/22%. Yep.
This wouldn’t be bad, It’s a reversion back to the old style, but your levels are weird 100%>66%>33% = 1.0>1.5>2.0
2) Dancing Dagger initiative cost reduced by 1, bounces up by 1.
I’d actually remove the bounces entirely and give it a rollover that marks the target you hit similar to warrior’s thrown sword ability. Dancing Dagger can stay at 3 initiative, but the rollover should be instant cast and shadowstep you to your target removing a condition and crippling the target for 3 seconds. 2 initiative.
3) Cloak and Dagger applies blind on hit.
Yep
4) Flanking Strike ABILITY (….comon…) is merged with Larcenous.
That’s a bad reversion. I’d rather see them add the 2 boons stolen back into it.
5) Infiltrator Strike TO has no cast, but LEAVE still does.
Meh.
6) Pistol Whip applies 1 stack of stability that lasts from the beginning of skill cast to the end. Reason? Mirror of Anguish. Evade too.
Eh. I think the bigger problem with this skill is the long windup before the initial stun, no to mention the root. It’s too clunky in the set overall. D/P is a fluid set. S/P should be too.
7) Shortbow range increased to 1200 for the auto attack.
If they don’t revert the heatseeking characteristic of them there’s no point. The auto would just be sidestepped at range.
8) Pistols range buffed to 1000. Even. Done. Badabing, badaboom.
9) Double condition durations on Body Shot or reduce initiative cost by 1.
10) Unload shoots 2 more shots, speed up animation. Leave the price, cast time, and damage per bullet.
We’re probably going to need a new ranged weapon before we get longer range. I’d rather have the autos apply vuln so they’re useful for both power and condi(6 seconds). Body shot should be changed to poison to make up for the lack of bleed on autos and it will also synergize well with power or condi(2X6 seconds). P/P 3 needs to be a backwards rolling evade firing 4 shots like the matrix and have a leap finisher. Total of a 2.0 multiplier on the 4 shots. (4 initiative)
11) Bug fix Impairing Daggers to actually perform the Combo Finisher. Make them faster too so they hit moving targets.
No opinion.
12) Bug fix Scorpion Wire.
This really just needs to shadowstep your opponents to you with a .25 second knockdown after the shadowstep.
(edited by Maugetarr.6823)
I agree with a part of it(sword range increase) but not with many other things like stability on p-whip and unload buff.(e.g. pwhip needs to be split into 2 skills and unload must become more flavourful)
Thief balance thread here.
6k+ PvP games
6k+ PvP games
Step 2: Make Preparedness baseline. Replace with Nasty Business. Nasty Business: Stealing to a target reduces your cooldowns by 5% of their remaining cooldowns. This makes Trickery highly desirable BUT not necessary. Just like Daredevil.
I’d rather move Bountiful theft into this slot. They moved boon on attune for eles, this one shouldn’t be that big of a problem. Then the replacement skill for the master level can be “Pistol Shots Pierce. Extend outgoing vuln duration by 33%”Step 3: Buff the entire Sword set (Including Flanking Strike, Larcenous Strike, Stab, and Pistol Whip). If you are feeling lazy, I believe a 4-8% damage boost would be a good testing ground.
It needs it. I’d rather see the aftercasts reduced because they seem to mess with Flanking strike as was discussed in a different thread.Step 4: Backstab needs to have more payoff. We know you don’t care when Dragonhunters are busy shooting 4-12k shots from 1200 range that can hit multiple targets. Ignoring EVERYTHING else about them too. Backstab hits 2k front or 4k back on most meta builds as a meta build, its also melee and requires stealth. DH just requires waiting 4s. I’d honestly say a 25-50% boost on this as well as making it unblockable would do absolute wonders.
Making it do more damage and unblockable would probably make it OP. One or the other might be fine.Step 5: Flanking Strike traits (RENAME THIS GOOD LORD) cooldown reduced to 30 seconds. I’d want more, but then again its not allowed- but 15s icd Ranger/Warrior, 1s icd Revenant, 5s ICD (oh wait…0…) Mesmer/Chronomancer. But ours is 60 seconds. Sigils do better than this trait, most of us just don’t use it.
Haste (flanking strike) and Roll for Initiative should both probably be on 30 seconds CD’s. RFI might need the initiative gain reduced, but it could definitely use some help.1) Heartseeker modifier bars moved to 66/44/22%. Yep.
This wouldn’t be bad, It’s a reversion back to the old style, but your levels are weird 100%>66%>33% = 1.0>1.5>2.02) Dancing Dagger initiative cost reduced by 1, bounces up by 1.
I’d actually remove the bounces entirely and give it a rollover that marks the target you hit similar to warrior’s thrown sword ability. Dancing Dagger can stay at 3 initiative, but the rollover should be instant cast and shadowstep you to your target removing a condition and crippling the target for 3 seconds. 2 initiative.3) Cloak and Dagger applies blind on hit.
Yep4) Flanking Strike ABILITY (….comon…) is merged with Larcenous.
That’s a bad reversion. I’d rather see them add the 2 boons stolen back into it.5) Infiltrator Strike TO has no cast, but LEAVE still does.
Meh.6) Pistol Whip applies 1 stack of stability that lasts from the beginning of skill cast to the end. Reason? Mirror of Anguish. Evade too.
Eh. I think the bigger problem with this skill is the long windup before the initial stun, no to mention the root. It’s too clunky in the set overall. D/P is a fluid set. S/P should be too.7) Shortbow range increased to 1200 for the auto attack.
If they don’t revert the heatseeking characteristic of them there’s no point. The auto would just be sidestepped at range.8) Pistols range buffed to 1000. Even. Done. Badabing, badaboom.
9) Double condition durations on Body Shot or reduce initiative cost by 1.
10) Unload shoots 2 more shots, speed up animation. Leave the price, cast time, and damage per bullet.
We’re probably going to need a new ranged weapon before we get longer range. I’d rather have the autos apply vuln so they’re useful for both power and condi(6 seconds). Body shot should be changed to poison to make up for the lack of bleed on autos and it will also synergize well with power or condi(2X6 seconds). P/P 3 needs to be a backwards rolling evade firing 4 shots like the matrix and have a leap finisher. Total of a 2.0 multiplier on the 4 shots. (4 initiative)11) Bug fix Impairing Daggers to actually perform the Combo Finisher. Make them faster too so they hit moving targets.
No opinion.12) Bug fix Scorpion Wire.
This really just needs to shadowstep your opponents to you with a .25 second knockdown after the shadowstep.
-Your first point puts two traits for pistols in two VERY different lines.
-Aftercasts can be removed by skills with 1/4 second cast time (Distracting Daggers effectively turns my unload into 9 shots with a daze, and I lose almost no time because it kills the aftercast).
-Maybe, but think about it- We have to stealth, get into melee (Age of AOE murderization/invuln 24/7), get behind a moving target, get ON them within I think 130 range, then get 4k. This assumes you aren’t revealed or killed in the process. And if you burn Steal to get in, it means you are down to a full multiskill combo like Mesmer.
-Agree, its just not good enough for the trade off.
-Heartseeker numbers were just thrown, will adjust original post.
-That could work, but then I can’t spam my dancing dagger then swap shortbow and maintain my aoe ranged presence. Not sure how I feel personally.
-Yep.
-Thats what I was saying, merge the skills and it steals 2 boons. But I don’t S/D much. So should it stay two separate skills, is that better?
-I have no problem landing pistol whip, I just feel so darn vulnerable in the charge up time.
- So speed shortbow auto projectile up?
- I’d rather autos stay same, and vuln per bullet on unload. Then the whole set retains its power with a hint of control flavor. Also, I play Pistols a lot- I’d die inside if I lost unload to some kind of Lucian ability. Stays same, add bullets and speed cast- else do not touch this or I will be gone from the game within 30 minutes unless I don’t lose damage. Body shot problem is just that the root is too short and the vuln wears off before I finish unload. It doesn’t need more condi. Give any condi to shadow strike or stay off body shot.
-I can’t make these work on moving targets outside of 600-750 range. Very agitating. They jump and I miss, they /dance and I miss, they use any mobility and I miss, they stand still after I toss and I miss.
- That could work, I’m just worried about the bloody pathing in this game. I’d prefer a 1200 range knockdown with a chance to pull (current) opposed to a 1/100 chance to just displace someone.
Worst Thief in the world, yes I am.
-Your first point puts two traits for pistols in two VERY different lines.
The other pistol trait just isn’t that good. I think it should be replaced by something else, but tht wasn’t part of the discussion.
-Aftercasts can be removed by skills with 1/4 second cast time (Distracting Daggers effectively turns my unload into 9 shots with a daze, and I lose almost no time because it kills the aftercast).
Yeah, but removing the aftercasts would buff the DPS and make you not get stuck in one when you want to use flankingstrike but it goes off after you’re hit.
-Maybe, but think about it- We have to stealth, get into melee (Age of AOE murderization/invuln 24/7), get behind a moving target, get ON them within I think 130 range, then get 4k. This assumes you aren’t revealed or killed in the process. And if you burn Steal to get in, it means you are down to a full multiskill combo like Mesmer.
I still think doing both would be too much. Making it a 2.75 multiplier or having it be unblockable would be fine, but not both.
-Agree, its just not good enough for the trade off.
yeah
-Heartseeker numbers were just thrown, will adjust original post.
alright
-That could work, but then I can’t spam my dancing dagger then swap shortbow and maintain my aoe ranged presence. Not sure how I feel personally.
You don’t have to shadowstep in, but it gives X/D the ability to chase better and the ability to remove condis. Right now it’s just overshadowed by X/P
-Yep.
-Thats what I was saying, merge the skills and it steals 2 boons. But I don’t S/D much. So should it stay two separate skills, is that better?
Merging the 2 skills isn’t a good idea. That’s how it used to be and it made landing the second strike (now LS) harder.
-I have no problem landing pistol whip, I just feel so darn vulnerable in the charge up time.
That’s what I’m saying. It’s a clunky skill with the windup. It needs to be split or redone. I’d rather see it daze but do it instantly while starting the evade instantly so it can be moved out of unless you add an immobilize (via DV or the PS).
- So speed shortbow auto projectile up?
Give it back the homing, but it doesn’t need the range
- I’d rather autos stay same, and vuln per bullet on unload. Then the whole set retains its power with a hint of control flavor. Also, I play Pistols a lot- I’d die inside if I lost unload to some kind of Lucian ability. Stays same, add bullets and speed cast- else do not touch this or I will be gone from the game within 30 minutes unless I don’t lose damage. Body shot problem is just that the root is too short and the vuln wears off before I finish unload. It doesn’t need more condi. Give any condi to shadow strike or stay off body shot.
Pistols are poorly designed. The only reason they’re even semi-viable right now is they buffed the damage to the autos and unload (too much on unload really). Giving it vuln on the autos increases your damage without having to spend initiative. With the Proposed trait, you’d be able to keep up 9-10 stacks. Adding a rolling evade would allow it to stand in combat better and not make it just a spam. A 2.0 multiplier is still very punishing and the leap would give the set stealth without having to take Daredevil. The reposition also allows you do move out of stuff like test of faith without taking the high damage from crossing the line. Overall, the set would be much more survivable and able to keep up consistent pressure with the vuln.
-I can’t make these work on moving targets outside of 600-750 range. Very agitating. They jump and I miss, they /dance and I miss, they use any mobility and I miss, they stand still after I toss and I miss.
Well if it needs bug fixes it needs bug fixes.
- That could work, I’m just worried about the bloody pathing in this game. I’d prefer a 1200 range knockdown with a chance to pull (current) opposed to a 1/100 chance to just displace someone.
I think the shadowstep would be a lot less likely to fail than the pull.
How much damage would you lose for your unload? Imo, pistol has been fairly viable (though I just realized it. a root, daze, and a blind all in one set is pretty potent apparently o.O)- it just needed range. But Thief can’t have range apparently, so just damage? Right now my build loads Pistol as 326 per shot for 8 shots.
My version is 326 per shot for 10 shots, each shot applies might when fired, and vuln if it lands. Merge with that Crit trait with vuln on crit (I use it), and it’d be fairly potent.
Adjusting the sword, thanks for the clarification. I will adjust when I have time again. Hope this thread gets more input, I’d love for it to be on the next Dev stream where they go “So apparently Thief needs XYZ”. Won’t happen, but it’d be nice. And I agree the other pistol trait is bad. It’s better to take the vuln or the ferocity over the cripple unless you are playing Speed style (which is funny, but weak).
Worst Thief in the world, yes I am.
Only gonna comment on pistol whip as the stuff i’d say about the rest of it has been said already: if the aftercasts on sword auto were evened out so that were less clunky or at the very least more consistent, S/P would feel more fluid without having to change pistol whip at all. It’s usually an aftercast combined with the PW windup that makes me feel vulnerable when playing the set, although with daredevil it feels much better already.
Critical Kit, Thief.
Don’t follow me, unless you enjoy being chased by angry men with sticks.
Power Build Condi Build
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Power Build Condi Build
That Unload change to a backwards roll would kill the whole set indefinately. With that little range you’d be out of range after every unload and you won’t be able to chase whilst “unloading”.
Sure when you think of spvp or close quarter fights it might be a viable option. I prefer to play p/p in wvw with d/p and unhindered combatant dash. it really makes up for the lack of SB#5 and you are still able to kite easily, especially when using Signet of Agility. I would’ve never even thought about attaching a contrary backwards roll to it.
I am 100% on Serious Thought’s side on that matter.
That Unload change to a backwards roll would kill the whole set indefinately. With that little range you’d be out of range after every unload and you won’t be able to chase whilst “unloading”.
Sure when you think of spvp or close quarter fights it might be a viable option. I prefer to play p/p in wvw with d/p and unhindered combatant dash. it really makes up for the lack of SB#5 and you are still able to kite easily, especially when using Signet of Agility. I would’ve never even thought about attaching a contrary backwards roll to it.I am 100% on Serious Thought’s side on that matter.
You could about face to chase the same way as with withdraw. Also you would be able to keep range on a person trying to close the gap on you.
Having unload as a huge initiative dump without utility like the rest of the thief weapon sets is just holding the set back.
snip
You could about face to chase the same way as with withdraw. Also you would be able to keep range on a person trying to close the gap on you.
Having unload as a huge initiative dump without utility like the rest of the thief weapon sets is just holding the set back.
Facing in the other direction without having a target to make advantage of the backward roll is just meh.. I meant it more like you are following your target in range whilst “unloading”. Unless they would add another reliable damage skill to the set, i don’t see crippling unload as an option. the auto attack in itself is just too slow for the amount of damage it does. I would rather prefer other options as mentioned above. Like having it apply vulnerability and or something of that sort.
snip
You could about face to chase the same way as with withdraw. Also you would be able to keep range on a person trying to close the gap on you.
Having unload as a huge initiative dump without utility like the rest of the thief weapon sets is just holding the set back.
Facing in the other direction without having a target to make advantage of the backward roll is just meh.. I meant it more like you are following your target in range whilst “unloading”. Unless they would add another reliable damage skill to the set, i don’t see crippling unload as an option. the auto attack in itself is just too slow for the amount of damage it does. I would rather prefer other options as mentioned above. Like having it apply vulnerability and or something of that sort.
Well the autoattack should have it’s base damage raised to 0.75 multiplier. That combined with the vuln on autoattack would make for decently strong sustained damage without needing to have unload be an initiative sink as the main source of damage for the set.
The auto-attack needs something, unload does too. Full skill changes are not it. If you want a way to disengage and still shoot, use Pistol/Dagger 3. It has an exceptionally high power ratio. Unload needs to stay as a skill that, when used, makes people desire engaging you because of its lethal prowess not because of its technique.
Disengage- P/D
Engage- D/P
Ranged Destruction- P/P
I will alter the main post, but I think a power boost and another damaging condition could work (either additive or replace) for the auto. Unload should apply vulnerability per hit, gain 2 shots more, and/or apply might per shot fired. Just my thought.
You still haven’t commented on body shot condition duration being doubled (they don’t last long).
Worst Thief in the world, yes I am.
The auto-attack needs something, unload does too. Full skill changes are not it. If you want a way to disengage and still shoot, use Pistol/Dagger 3. It has an exceptionally high power ratio. Unload needs to stay as a skill that, when used, makes people desire engaging you because of its lethal prowess not because of its technique.
Disengage- P/D
Engage- D/P
Ranged Destruction- P/PI will alter the main post, but I think a power boost and another damaging condition could work (either additive or replace) for the auto. Unload should apply vulnerability per hit, gain 2 shots more, and/or apply might per shot fired. Just my thought.
You still haven’t commented on body shot condition duration being doubled (they don’t last long).
Well, the point of a roll is to stay at medium range and punish people for attacking you without necessarily disengaging.
As for body shot, I think the condition should change. Poison is a great utility to cut healing helping to fight healing bunkers. If anything else, I’d rather it destroy a boon than the current effect.
I love my root and 5% damage boost, it performs the function of power pistols. Poison doesn’t do much for raw power. Removing a boon might be good o.O
And why are you so stuck on this matrix roll? Give it to Pistol/Dagger if anything but keep it away from unload.
Worst Thief in the world, yes I am.
I love my root and 5% damage boost, it performs the function of power pistols. Poison doesn’t do much for raw power. Removing a boon might be good o.O
And why are you so stuck on this matrix roll? Give it to Pistol/Dagger if anything but keep it away from unload.
Because P/P has horrible defensive utility. If we could move the damage to the autoattack then we would have initiative left over for the other attacks. With 6 seconds of vuln on the autos, you could maintain 7 stacks providing the boost you want. Our successful weapon sets have either an evade or blind attached to the dual skill and the set allows them to actually use the others within the set. Look at D/P, Staff, and S/D (although S/D is arguably weak currently with everything else running around). They all have some form of mitigation tied to a decently damaging attack. SB might not have great damage, but it has great utility tied to it with decent damage through CB at close range, an evade attached to #3, and a shadowstep rounding it out as a great weapon. P/P relies too much on unload for its damage leaving little initiative left for any of the utility it may have. Moving the damage to the autos with a 0.75 multiplier (0.91 mult/sec) lessens the reliance on unload for damage allowing it to be given more utility (and still have strong burst a a 2.0 multiplier which is equivalent to a max damage heartseeker) while promoting a playstyle that reacts to your opponent more. The idea is to make it a set that can stick around in combat rather than just being a ranged eviscerate. I want the tradeoff from selecting it over SB to be sustained performance in combat.
Edit: The vuln upkeep on the autos with the 0.75 multiplier is about 0.98 multiplier/sec which is roughly equivalent to ranger LB in terms of DPS which is fair since it’s only a 900 range weapon. It would be great at single target pressure at medium range.
(edited by Maugetarr.6823)