Guild Wars 2

YourOwnFear.2743:

Dasorine.1964:

Yeah, except for those that like playing backstab style in a game where your meant to be free to choose your build and style

Considering stuff like P/X needs buffing anyway, nerfing an “ok” weapon set in exchange for a buff to a set that already needs buffing is just exchanging a punch in the face for a kick to the head

What your not getting is this would only be a nerf to bads. Good players will adapt and play better. I also mentioned that the change should come with a damage buff so technically if you are a good player this should only be a buff.

It really depends, yes it would mostly hurt bads, but what about people who suffer from stuff like latency? what about sync issues that are invariably had in mmorpg pvp situations? the fact that those suffering from such issues have most likely already had to work around those issues once with the first skill sending them into stealth they now have to do so again with a far more constrained attack to land.

For what? To keep low level players happy because they think they should automatically counter what basically amounts to an auto attack with special mechanics simply because they stood near a guardian or they spammed V rather than avoid the initial approach?

Of course you can’t really balance the entire game around them, but you also shouldn’t punish them repeatedly for something they can’t control simply because bads are bad.

The fact that the general argument is “oh but other peoples attacks go onto cooldown” generally ignores the fact that those other moves don’t require positional orientation, don’t require utilizing a different ability first, aren’t based on auto-attacks and aren’t the unique stealth attack system which is always going to be fairly different from any other mechanic because its unique.

The fact that people think thieves can just “spam” 1 and land the backstab even after someone has rolled away or blocked just shows how terrible they generally are, as stated previously the rolling away gives the least feedback but its also generally the most effective generally guaranteeing they won’t have long enough in stealth to really land it unless you spent the first part stood still, against blocking you even get feedback about whats happening thus any follow up attacks are more down to them not working with that feedback than it is the thief is “silly op and unfair”

heres the rules:

everytime you exit stealth—=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you miss—————-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you get blocked-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you facestab——-=—————1 failed attempt

:) think hard

Here’s the problem with your “challenge”, travlane. You won’t be trying to actually fight them, you’ll be simply trying to “not die to make your point”.

If the point in this game was to run from people, Norn would be the most OP race in the game (Snow Leopard represent!).

@Dasorine: other classes can suffer from those very same latency/technical issues. However they are punished for wasting abilities when blind, dodged, blocked, etc.

I don’t think most thieves are OP … in fact, i think most are rubbish. However, I think their skill floor is ridiculously low (i.e. lowest in the game) due to the fact that they have “training wheels” built-in where they don’t follow the same risk/reward mechanics the 7 other classes in the game adhere to.

Dasorine.1964:

YourOwnFear.2743:

Dasorine.1964:

Yeah, except for those that like playing backstab style in a game where your meant to be free to choose your build and style

Considering stuff like P/X needs buffing anyway, nerfing an “ok” weapon set in exchange for a buff to a set that already needs buffing is just exchanging a punch in the face for a kick to the head

What your not getting is this would only be a nerf to bads. Good players will adapt and play better. I also mentioned that the change should come with a damage buff so technically if you are a good player this should only be a buff.

It really depends, yes it would mostly hurt bads, but what about people who suffer from stuff like latency? what about sync issues that are invariably had in mmorpg pvp situations? the fact that those suffering from such issues have most likely already had to work around those issues once with the first skill sending them into stealth they now have to do so again with a far more constrained attack to land.

For what? To keep low level players happy because they think they should automatically counter what basically amounts to an auto attack with special mechanics simply because they stood near a guardian or they spammed V rather than avoid the initial approach?

Of course you can’t really balance the entire game around them, but you also shouldn’t punish them repeatedly for something they can’t control simply because bads are bad.

The fact that the general argument is “oh but other peoples attacks go onto cooldown” generally ignores the fact that those other moves don’t require positional orientation, don’t require utilizing a different ability first, aren’t based on auto-attacks and aren’t the unique stealth attack system which is always going to be fairly different from any other mechanic because its unique.

In my first post and outline I talked about the change not affecting misses. Since it isnt fair to punish someone with latency issues and miss judging distances. This change would only affect you if you were outplayed with an active block (not aegis), dodge, and blind.

Also with this change I think channeling attacks should break when you enter stealth no matter what. I find it stupid that I can’t be seen but I can still be channeled on.

As I’ve pointed out before, Ranger’s opening strike requires them to get completely out of combat for a while for it to reset. A thief who has their backstab blocked, dodged, etc. is simply revealed for 3 seconds.

Who is punished? Only the Ranger.
If both were punished, who would be punished more still? The Ranger.

Come complain when it puts backstab on a 30+ second cooldown or requires you to get out of combat before you can use it again.

but there is a bit of an issue all around with that, for starters I don’t think the game can actually tell the difference between an active block and an aegis (which is probably why it works how it currently does on those).

Then you have what counts as a miss and what counts as an evade, its a lot more obviously able to work that out as shown by the fact they put in specific changes to certain skills to allow them to work that way, but at some point this complaint will pop up again but only now its “omg why can a thief spam backstab until they hit when my hundred blades can’t!!!1!” or some variation.

Personally I wouldn’t mind it giving revealed on a proper evade or an active block but with the game systems how they seem to be on top of ALL the other issues thieves actually experience against a competent opponent it currently would only make us weaker and preventing thieves ever being anything more than wvw 1v1 uplevel stompers.

And again sebrent your comparing apples to oranges the mechanics are different they will always be different, if you feel this is unfair then your out of luck because there will always be different things working differently otherwise everyone may as well be one profession and have 1 skill.

Sebrent.3625:

As I’ve pointed out before, Ranger’s opening strike requires them to get completely out of combat for a while for it to reset. A thief who has their backstab blocked, dodged, etc. is simply revealed for 3 seconds.

Who is punished? Only the Ranger.
If both were punished, who would be punished more still? The Ranger.

Come complain when it puts backstab on a 30+ second cooldown or requires you to get out of combat before you can use it again.

You do realize I brought up rangers as an example why there should be a revealed debuff on thieves who get out played right? I don’t know why you think I am complaining about rangers. I was complaining that thief is not getting punished enough for bad play.

@Dasorine:
You’re assuming that they are different mechanics based on the Thief being the only one that doesn’t following the game mechanic.
I’m assuming it based on the fact that 7 of the 8 classes all follow it despite the difference in their skills’ mechanics.

Then there is the issue of how it affects the risk/reward or reward/punishment system for playing good/bad. It punishes good non-thief play and rewards bad thief play.

@YourOwnFear:
I wasn’t posting that thinking you are complaining about Rangers. I was posting that to emphasize your point by showing how one class mechanic is punished horribly while the other is rewarded in that very same scenario.

Sebrent.3625:

@Dasorine:
You’re assuming that they are different mechanics based on the Thief being the only one that doesn’t following the game mechanic.
I’m assuming it based on the fact that 7 of the 8 classes all follow it despite the difference in their skills’ mechanics.

Then there is the issue of how it affects the risk/reward or reward/punishment system for playing good/bad. It punishes good non-thief play and rewards bad thief play.

---

@YourOwnFear:
I wasn’t posting that thinking you are complaining about Rangers. I was posting that to emphasize your point by showing how one class mechanic is punished horribly while the other is rewarded in that very same scenario.

So clearly thieves should have cooldowns on all their skills because 7/8 professions have cooldowns on their skills.

Elementalists and Engineers should not get kits/attunements beause 6/8 professions only get access to 2 weapon sets worth of skills.

etc etc etc

The fact that the ranger that just missed with opening strikes still has the rest of their toolset which includes 2 sets of cooldowns, their pet and a full complement of their utilities PLUS most likely still in relative safety of range with any number of their defenses still fresh and ready.

A thief that misses the backstab and subsequently revealed would have lost either a good portion of his weapon skills, a long cooldown/important utility, be locked out of a large portion of their defense and be in a highly vulnerable position.

This is before you even factor in the fact that those opening strikes could have been shot at the edge of the range after edging around a corner while the backstab had a fairly lengthy and counterable set up anyway.

You really cannot compare the two based on a simple thought line of “Oh my opener missed and is on cooldown their opener missed and they get another attempt (unless the enemy was competent to begin with)”

This is a terrible idea. For one thing, this would completely break the stealth at 25% trait (it’s already broken but this would be terrible).

Nothing to give us in return… subsequently this is a kitten idea. Make it Double damage so that we almost instagib anyone in return then its balanced again. Seriously stop whining about the thief class, if you’re still losing to most of them you’re simply bad… thats all I gotta say.

Dasorine.1964:

but there is a bit of an issue all around with that, for starters I don’t think the game can actually tell the difference between an active block and an aegis (which is probably why it works how it currently does on those).

Then you have what counts as a miss and what counts as an evade, its a lot more obviously able to work that out as shown by the fact they put in specific changes to certain skills to allow them to work that way, but at some point this complaint will pop up again but only now its “omg why can a thief spam backstab until they hit when my hundred blades can’t!!!1!” or some variation.

Personally I wouldn’t mind it giving revealed on a proper evade or an active block but with the game systems how they seem to be on top of ALL the other issues thieves actually experience against a competent opponent it currently would only make us weaker and preventing thieves ever being anything more than wvw 1v1 uplevel stompers.

And again sebrent your comparing apples to oranges the mechanics are different they will always be different, if you feel this is unfair then your out of luck because there will always be different things working differently otherwise everyone may as well be one profession and have 1 skill.

ur right . it hink they are programmed the same.

TooBz.3065:

This is a terrible idea. For one thing, this would completely break the stealth at 25% trait (it’s already broken but this would be terrible).

of they put it at 10% hp it would work better. maybe 15%. by then ur gonna die almost anyway so its a saving throw.

Sebrent.3625:

Here’s the problem with your “challenge”, travlane. You won’t be trying to actually fight them, you’ll be simply trying to “not die to make your point”.

If the point in this game was to run from people, Norn would be the most OP race in the game (Snow Leopard represent!).

---

@Dasorine: other classes can suffer from those very same latency/technical issues. However they are punished for wasting abilities when blind, dodged, blocked, etc.

---

I don’t think most thieves are OP … in fact, i think most are rubbish. However, I think their skill floor is ridiculously low (i.e. lowest in the game) due to the fact that they have “training wheels” built-in where they don’t follow the same risk/reward mechanics the 7 other classes in the game adhere to.

no…it wouldnt matter….if my opponent isnt invis im not on the offensive anymore. so not really sure how thats relevant. and dying.losing.gettingdowned is of irrelevance tot he challenge. the challenge is to see how many backstabs actually hit the back when a player enemy is good. hence nobody taking my challenge bc they realize they will seriously prove a point against their theories

Dasorine.1964:

So clearly thieves should have cooldowns on all their skills because 7/8 professions have cooldowns on their skills.

I never said that. Exaggeration will get you nowhere.

Dasorine.1964:

Elementalists and Engineers should not get kits/attunements beause 6/8 professions only get access to 2 weapon sets worth of skills.

Same as above, and, for example, I’m not asking for Mesmer to have a stealth attack, am I?

Dasorine.1964:

The fact that the ranger that just missed with opening strikes still has the rest of their toolset which includes 2 sets of cooldowns, their pet and a full complement of their utilities PLUS most likely still in relative safety of range with any number of their defenses still fresh and ready.

That’s great … they still got punished for being dumb enough to waste it on an aegis, blind, block, dodge, etc. The thief is not.

Even if the thief was punished, the thief would still have their other sources of stealth, C&D again, maybe stealth on steal, other attacks, etc.

Dasorine.1964:

A thief that misses the backstab and subsequently revealed would have lost either a good portion of his weapon skills, a long cooldown/important utility, be locked out of a large portion of their defense and be in a highly vulnerable position.

• Locked out of only their stealth attack.
• Thief defense consists of more than just stealth
• Everyone else is punished for noobing an attack, why shouldn’t thieves?

Dasorine.1964:

This is before you even factor in the fact that those opening strikes could have been shot at the edge of the range after edging around a corner while the backstab had a fairly lengthy and counterable set up anyway.

• Dagger Pistol allow stealth that a foe can’t do anything about.
• So does shadow refuge unless they have some way to push/pull.
• So does blinding powder.
• So does hide in shadows.
• You can cloak and dagger anything nearby, even a critter, and attack your foe from stealth
• So do Mesmer shatters, but they are punished

Dasorine.1964:

You really cannot compare the two based on a simple thought line of “Oh my opener missed and is on cooldown their opener missed and they get another attempt (unless the enemy was competent to begin with)”

That is why I compared it to the January patch notes as well as the mechanics of several classes … some of which you thieves brought up and I was happy to oblige.

TooBz.3065:

This is a terrible idea. For one thing, this would completely break the stealth at 25% trait (it’s already broken but this would be terrible).

Only if the thief isn’t paying attention and auto-attacks where it hits. It’s the same with a Mesmer and their Desparate Decoy trait.

Travlane.5948:

i challenge ANYONE here to come fight me 1 v 1. the challenge is not to win. but to see your % of successful backstabs. you have to make a video uncut footage of you trying as we will not see you in stealth i owuld love to see your successful bs hit . then we come back to the forums and tell everyone ur around 20 im betting lol. anyone take me up on this?

I hate to admit it, but I agree with you here. Even some of the best videos I’ve seen a of BS Thief, they still tend to miss often. Reveal on miss would kill the class ( At least BS, not so much for P/D).

laquito.5269:

Nothing to give us in return… subsequently this is a kitten idea. Make it Double damage so that we almost instagib anyone in return then its balanced again. Seriously stop whining about the thief class, if you’re still losing to most of them you’re simply bad… thats all I gotta say.

• Confusion was nerfed 50% … where’s my mesmer’s compensation?
• Quickness was nerfed 50% … where’s my mesmer’s compensation?
  • Where’s my Ranger’s compensation on their beastmastery trait?
• Ride the Lightning was nerfed with a larger cooldown … where is the compensation for elementalists?
• Mist Form was nerfed … where is the compensation for elementalists?

And the list goes on and on …

Weak argument. You’re also assuming this post is about people losing to thieves. It is not.

It is about

• Discrepancies in game mechanics
• Gameplay that rewards bad play and punishes good play

@seb Do you think BS should be around 8% success rate? answer that plz?
if your answer is no then they should not get revealed on a miss. period.
i see nobody has taken me up on my challenge. so this conversation really should be over or are there any takers?

ps obv a bad player doesnt know how to get a thief out of d/p invis.
HINT: the key lies next to the blind field :P heeh

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Here’s the problem with your “challenge”, travlane. You won’t be trying to actually fight them, you’ll be simply trying to “not die to make your point”.

If the point in this game was to run from people, Norn would be the most OP race in the game (Snow Leopard represent!).

---

@Dasorine: other classes can suffer from those very same latency/technical issues. However they are punished for wasting abilities when blind, dodged, blocked, etc.

---

I don’t think most thieves are OP … in fact, i think most are rubbish. However, I think their skill floor is ridiculously low (i.e. lowest in the game) due to the fact that they have “training wheels” built-in where they don’t follow the same risk/reward mechanics the 7 other classes in the game adhere to.

no…it wouldnt matter….if my opponent isnt invis im not on the offensive anymore. so not really sure how thats relevant. and dying.losing.gettingdowned is of irrelevance tot he challenge. the challenge is to see how many backstabs actually hit the back when a player enemy is good. hence nobody taking my challenge bc they realize they will seriously prove a point against their theories

Yes it would. When a thief goes stealth against me, yes, I’m reacting so I don’t eat a backstab. However, I’m also reacting so that I can smash him in the face for the limited time he’ll be visible.

There is a big difference there compared to simply trying to not get backstabbed.

compensation? where is thieves compensation for the last 27 nerfs? thats another losing argument

Sebrent.3625:

That’s great … they still got punished for being dumb enough to waste it on an aegis, blind, block, dodge, etc. The thief is not.

Even if the thief was punished, the thief would still have their other sources of stealth, C&D again, maybe stealth on steal, other attacks, etc.

• Locked out of only their stealth attack.
• Thief defense consists of more than just stealth
• Everyone else is punished for noobing an attack, why shouldn’t thieves?

for some sets the stealth attack is a majority share of the damage, I never said stealth was the only defense I said its a large portion of the defense.

And thats just it Thieves already ARE punished for failing the attack specially against a competent person due to limited time frames and requirement to use other skills.

Sebrent.3625:

• Dagger Pistol allow stealth that a foe can’t do anything about.
• So does shadow refuge unless they have some way to push/pull.
• So does blinding powder.
• So does hide in shadows.
• You can cloak and dagger anything nearby, even a critter, and attack your foe from stealth
• So do Mesmer shatters, but they are punished

The fact that you believe dagger pistol and other stealths are uncounterable sort of invalidates most of what you say to me, if you still haven’t figured out the ways to counter them or put pressure on them your going to be terrible regardless of what happens and yet the thief is still using up all their toolset to have another go while your example of rangers opening strikes aren’t. As for mesmer shatters… thats a hole other kettle of fish.

Sebrent.3625:

That is why I compared it to the January patch notes as well as the mechanics of several classes … some of which you thieves brought up and I was happy to oblige.

And yet its still not a valid comparison as your almost always leaving out vital differences or working on false assumptions.

Sebrent.3625:

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Here’s the problem with your “challenge”, travlane. You won’t be trying to actually fight them, you’ll be simply trying to “not die to make your point”.

If the point in this game was to run from people, Norn would be the most OP race in the game (Snow Leopard represent!).

---

@Dasorine: other classes can suffer from those very same latency/technical issues. However they are punished for wasting abilities when blind, dodged, blocked, etc.

---

I don’t think most thieves are OP … in fact, i think most are rubbish. However, I think their skill floor is ridiculously low (i.e. lowest in the game) due to the fact that they have “training wheels” built-in where they don’t follow the same risk/reward mechanics the 7 other classes in the game adhere to.

no…it wouldnt matter….if my opponent isnt invis im not on the offensive anymore. so not really sure how thats relevant. and dying.losing.gettingdowned is of irrelevance tot he challenge. the challenge is to see how many backstabs actually hit the back when a player enemy is good. hence nobody taking my challenge bc they realize they will seriously prove a point against their theories

Yes it would. When a thief goes stealth against me, yes, I’m reacting so I don’t eat a backstab. However, I’m also reacting so that I can smash him in the face for the limited time he’ll be visible.

There is a big difference there compared to simply trying to not get backstabbed.

thats exactly what im going to do. im going to react when u go stealth. so plz take my challenge so i can prove to the forums that BS isnt op and shouldnt be on reveal. TAKE MY CHALLENGE lol :
heres the rules:
everytime you exit stealth—=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you miss—————-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you get blocked-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you facestab——-=—————1 failed attempt

lets see if u can get more than 1/5 backstab tries successfull

tell you what. i wont even use a mesmer to hide behind clones…i wont even use a guardian so i can block/aegis/pushback or l.o.w. lol….i wont even use an engineer to use turrets…..i could go on… bottom line bs is fine the way it is…its a l2 kitten ue

ski.4927:

I also think that things like dodging, casting caltrops, casting other certain abilities, and stomping should all break stealth. But that’s just me. I am perfectly happy stealth staking people for now.

And once stealth gets buffed to keep a thief in stealth until attacking or hurt, then that will fly. Until then, we have 10 seconds of stealth max for one skill, and dramatically less for all others.

Yes, there are ways to cheese huge stealth times, just like how every class has some sort of mechanic they can cheese as well with a specific build.

Travlane.5948:

compensation? where is thieves compensation for the last 27 nerfs? thats another losing argument

You’re not the only class that has been nerfed quite a bit.

Thieves also never had Jon Peters come to their forum say “we know your class is the most in need of help” and then experience mostly nerfs for the 5 months after that.

Dasorine.1964:

Sebrent.3625:

That’s great … they still got punished for being dumb enough to waste it on an aegis, blind, block, dodge, etc. The thief is not.

Even if the thief was punished, the thief would still have their other sources of stealth, C&D again, maybe stealth on steal, other attacks, etc.

• Locked out of only their stealth attack.
• Thief defense consists of more than just stealth
• Everyone else is punished for noobing an attack, why shouldn’t thieves?

for some sets the stealth attack is a majority share of the damage, I never said stealth was the only defense I said its a large portion of the defense.

And thats just it Thieves already ARE punished for failing the attack specially against a competent person due to limited time frames and requirement to use other skills.

Sebrent.3625:

• Dagger Pistol allow stealth that a foe can’t do anything about.
• So does shadow refuge unless they have some way to push/pull.
• So does blinding powder.
• So does hide in shadows.
• You can cloak and dagger anything nearby, even a critter, and attack your foe from stealth
• So do Mesmer shatters, but they are punished

The fact that you believe dagger pistol and other stealths are uncounterable sort of invalidates most of what you say to me, if you still haven’t figured out the ways to counter them or put pressure on them your going to be terrible regardless of what happens and yet the thief is still using up all their toolset to have another go while your example of rangers opening strikes aren’t. As for mesmer shatters… thats a hole other kettle of fish.

How exactly do you prevent a thief from doing a leap finisher?
How do you prevent a thief from using an instant cast?
I know I can interrupt hide in shadows, but what if he’s gotten some range or I’m a class without an interrupt?
You’re trying to attack the person rather than actually discuss the topic … typical thief community tactic. I don’t know how many times I have to tell you people that I don’t have trouble fighting thieves and actually think most of you are easy rubbish … I’d rather fight a thief than an engineer. Most of them at least have learned how to play despite some of the failings of their class so there’s a higher chance of them being a skilled player.

Sebrent.3625:

That is why I compared it to the January patch notes as well as the mechanics of several classes … some of which you thieves brought up and I was happy to oblige.

And yet its still not a valid comparison as your almost always leaving out vital differences or working on false assumptions.[/quote]
What vital differences?
What false assumptions?

If you’re going to make a claim … don’t leave it too vague to discuss.

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Here’s the problem with your “challenge”, travlane. You won’t be trying to actually fight them, you’ll be simply trying to “not die to make your point”.

If the point in this game was to run from people, Norn would be the most OP race in the game (Snow Leopard represent!).

---

@Dasorine: other classes can suffer from those very same latency/technical issues. However they are punished for wasting abilities when blind, dodged, blocked, etc.

---

I don’t think most thieves are OP … in fact, i think most are rubbish. However, I think their skill floor is ridiculously low (i.e. lowest in the game) due to the fact that they have “training wheels” built-in where they don’t follow the same risk/reward mechanics the 7 other classes in the game adhere to.

no…it wouldnt matter….if my opponent isnt invis im not on the offensive anymore. so not really sure how thats relevant. and dying.losing.gettingdowned is of irrelevance tot he challenge. the challenge is to see how many backstabs actually hit the back when a player enemy is good. hence nobody taking my challenge bc they realize they will seriously prove a point against their theories

Yes it would. When a thief goes stealth against me, yes, I’m reacting so I don’t eat a backstab. However, I’m also reacting so that I can smash him in the face for the limited time he’ll be visible.

There is a big difference there compared to simply trying to not get backstabbed.

thats exactly what im going to do. im going to react when u go stealth. so plz take my challenge so i can prove to the forums that BS isnt op and shouldnt be on reveal. TAKE MY CHALLENGE lol :
heres the rules:
everytime you exit stealth—=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you miss—————-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you get blocked-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you facestab——-=—————1 failed attempt

lets see if u can get more than 1/5 backstab tries successfull

Travlane.5948:

tell you what. i wont even use a mesmer to hide behind clones…i wont even use a guardian so i can block/aegis/pushback or l.o.w. lol….i wont even use an engineer to use turrets…..i could go on… bottom line bs is fine the way it is…its a l2 kitten ue

No, it’s not exactly what you’re going to do. You’re not going to try to hit them for the win. You’re going to “win” by simply not fighting and avoiding.

If you are honestly tricked by mesmer clones, here are some tips:

• Clones attack slower than the real Mesmer
• Clones don’t have an offhand weapon equipped
• Clones only use the auto-attack
• Clones will only move to get you back in range and the movement will be only what is required to do that
• Clones don’t have sigil stacks
• When the Mesmer is not 100% hp, their freshly summoned clones are still summoned with a bar showing 100% hp
• Calling target can only be countered by stealth (which Mesmers have a limited amount, if any, of that varies by build).
• Clones don’t have food buffs
• Clones don’t have the boons their Mesmer does
• The only signet that shows up on both the Mesmer and their clones is the Signet of Illusions

Despite all those things, I still think they are great … Thieves would gripe.

As shown by the video, guardian aegis won’t do a thing.

All melee classes have some trouble against a good engineer due to their plethora of CC abilities. It’s one of the beautiful things the engineer community has pulled out of their bag of tricks.

McFribble.2349:

ski.4927:

I also think that things like dodging, casting caltrops, casting other certain abilities, and stomping should all break stealth. But that’s just me. I am perfectly happy stealth staking people for now.

And once stealth gets buffed to keep a thief in stealth until attacking or hurt, then that will fly. Until then, we have 10 seconds of stealth max for one skill, and dramatically less for all others.

Yes, there are ways to cheese huge stealth times, just like how every class has some sort of mechanic they can cheese as well with a specific build.

And of coarse I’d add that while in stealth your doing NO damage. But everyone should know this by now. Stealth spammers contribute NOTHING, ZIP, ZERO.

In less your just trolling a group for the hell of it. At some point you will have to attack and get revealed.

McFribble.2349:

ski.4927:

I also think that things like dodging, casting caltrops, casting other certain abilities, and stomping should all break stealth. But that’s just me. I am perfectly happy stealth staking people for now.

And once stealth gets buffed to keep a thief in stealth until attacking or hurt, then that will fly. Until then, we have 10 seconds of stealth max for one skill, and dramatically less for all others.

Yes, there are ways to cheese huge stealth times, just like how every class has some sort of mechanic they can cheese as well with a specific build.

I agree that the following should not break stealth:

• dodging
• dropping caltrops (especially from the on-dodge trait)
• casting non-attacks
• stomping … this is the thief’s “trick” when it comes to stomping … let them have it.

Thieves also never had Jon Peters come to their forum say “we know your class is the most in need of help” and then experience mostly nerfs for the 5 months after that.

Rangers lol

You know what? BM rangers (one of two viable builds) are even MORE 1v1 oriented and useless than thieves in group situations. They do gripe a lot but I’ve never EVER seen them posit suggestions to buff their class on the level of absurdity that some of the topics in the forum like remove revealed, give thief 6 utilities, make them steal the entire skillbar of an enemy have.

Also countering dagger pistol requires a pretty specific skill. You need to interrupt their leap with a ranged attack. I know other D/P’s can do it with headshot, and rangers can use SB 5. Guardians can push them out of the circle with shield 5 but tbh they prefer to save that for when the thief SR’s. Mesmer can use GS 5 (although that’s also better for pushing the thief outta SR), etc etc.

Sebrent.3625:

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Here’s the problem with your “challenge”, travlane. You won’t be trying to actually fight them, you’ll be simply trying to “not die to make your point”.

If the point in this game was to run from people, Norn would be the most OP race in the game (Snow Leopard represent!).

---

@Dasorine: other classes can suffer from those very same latency/technical issues. However they are punished for wasting abilities when blind, dodged, blocked, etc.

---

I don’t think most thieves are OP … in fact, i think most are rubbish. However, I think their skill floor is ridiculously low (i.e. lowest in the game) due to the fact that they have “training wheels” built-in where they don’t follow the same risk/reward mechanics the 7 other classes in the game adhere to.

no…it wouldnt matter….if my opponent isnt invis im not on the offensive anymore. so not really sure how thats relevant. and dying.losing.gettingdowned is of irrelevance tot he challenge. the challenge is to see how many backstabs actually hit the back when a player enemy is good. hence nobody taking my challenge bc they realize they will seriously prove a point against their theories

Yes it would. When a thief goes stealth against me, yes, I’m reacting so I don’t eat a backstab. However, I’m also reacting so that I can smash him in the face for the limited time he’ll be visible.

There is a big difference there compared to simply trying to not get backstabbed.

thats exactly what im going to do. im going to react when u go stealth. so plz take my challenge so i can prove to the forums that BS isnt op and shouldnt be on reveal. TAKE MY CHALLENGE lol :
heres the rules:
everytime you exit stealth—=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you miss—————-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you get blocked-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you facestab——-=—————1 failed attempt

lets see if u can get more than 1/5 backstab tries successfull

Travlane.5948:

tell you what. i wont even use a mesmer to hide behind clones…i wont even use a guardian so i can block/aegis/pushback or l.o.w. lol….i wont even use an engineer to use turrets…..i could go on… bottom line bs is fine the way it is…its a l2 kitten ue

No, it’s not exactly what you’re going to do. You’re not going to try to hit them for the win. You’re going to “win” by simply not fighting and avoiding.

If you are honestly tricked by mesmer clones, here are some tips:

• Clones attack slower than the real Mesmer
• Clones don’t have an offhand weapon equipped
• Clones only use the auto-attack
• Clones will only move to get you back in range and the movement will be only what is required to do that
• Clones don’t have sigil stacks
• When the Mesmer is not 100% hp, their freshly summoned clones are still summoned with a bar showing 100% hp
• Calling target can only be countered by stealth (which Mesmers have a limited amount, if any, of that varies by build).
• Clones don’t have food buffs
• Clones don’t have the boons their Mesmer does
• The only signet that shows up on both the Mesmer and their clones is the Signet of Illusions

Despite all those things, I still think they are great … Thieves would gripe.

As shown by the video, guardian aegis won’t do a thing.

All melee classes have some trouble against a good engineer due to their plethora of CC abilities. It’s one of the beautiful things the engineer community has pulled out of their bag of tricks.

If a Thief is targeted then goes into stealth. The clones will still follow the Thief and and perform whatever action you sent them to do. I 1v1 mesmers pretty often in Yaks Bend and can confirm 100% this happens.

Those things are pretty much fire and forget.

Shadowskill.9852:

Sebrent.3625:

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Here’s the problem with your “challenge”, travlane. You won’t be trying to actually fight them, you’ll be simply trying to “not die to make your point”.

If the point in this game was to run from people, Norn would be the most OP race in the game (Snow Leopard represent!).

---

@Dasorine: other classes can suffer from those very same latency/technical issues. However they are punished for wasting abilities when blind, dodged, blocked, etc.

---

I don’t think most thieves are OP … in fact, i think most are rubbish. However, I think their skill floor is ridiculously low (i.e. lowest in the game) due to the fact that they have “training wheels” built-in where they don’t follow the same risk/reward mechanics the 7 other classes in the game adhere to.

no…it wouldnt matter….if my opponent isnt invis im not on the offensive anymore. so not really sure how thats relevant. and dying.losing.gettingdowned is of irrelevance tot he challenge. the challenge is to see how many backstabs actually hit the back when a player enemy is good. hence nobody taking my challenge bc they realize they will seriously prove a point against their theories

Yes it would. When a thief goes stealth against me, yes, I’m reacting so I don’t eat a backstab. However, I’m also reacting so that I can smash him in the face for the limited time he’ll be visible.

There is a big difference there compared to simply trying to not get backstabbed.

thats exactly what im going to do. im going to react when u go stealth. so plz take my challenge so i can prove to the forums that BS isnt op and shouldnt be on reveal. TAKE MY CHALLENGE lol :
heres the rules:
everytime you exit stealth—=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you miss—————-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you get blocked-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you facestab——-=—————1 failed attempt

lets see if u can get more than 1/5 backstab tries successfull

Travlane.5948:

tell you what. i wont even use a mesmer to hide behind clones…i wont even use a guardian so i can block/aegis/pushback or l.o.w. lol….i wont even use an engineer to use turrets…..i could go on… bottom line bs is fine the way it is…its a l2 kitten ue

No, it’s not exactly what you’re going to do. You’re not going to try to hit them for the win. You’re going to “win” by simply not fighting and avoiding.

If you are honestly tricked by mesmer clones, here are some tips:

• Clones attack slower than the real Mesmer
• Clones don’t have an offhand weapon equipped
• Clones only use the auto-attack
• Clones will only move to get you back in range and the movement will be only what is required to do that
• Clones don’t have sigil stacks
• When the Mesmer is not 100% hp, their freshly summoned clones are still summoned with a bar showing 100% hp
• Calling target can only be countered by stealth (which Mesmers have a limited amount, if any, of that varies by build).
• Clones don’t have food buffs
• Clones don’t have the boons their Mesmer does
• The only signet that shows up on both the Mesmer and their clones is the Signet of Illusions

Despite all those things, I still think they are great … Thieves would gripe.

As shown by the video, guardian aegis won’t do a thing.

All melee classes have some trouble against a good engineer due to their plethora of CC abilities. It’s one of the beautiful things the engineer community has pulled out of their bag of tricks.

If a Thief is targeted then goes into stealth. The clones will still follow the Thief and and perform whatever action you sent them to do. I 1v1 mesmers pretty often in Yaks Bend and can confirm 100% this happens.

Those things are pretty much fire and forget.

i think you mean the follow you after you are revealed right? they dont really follow you “while invised” or is that what actually meant?

Teamkiller.4315:

Thieves also never had Jon Peters come to their forum say “we know your class is the most in need of help” and then experience mostly nerfs for the 5 months after that.

Rangers lol

You know what? BM rangers (one of two viable builds) are even MORE 1v1 oriented and useless than thieves in group situations. They do gripe a lot but I’ve never EVER seen them posit suggestions to buff their class on the level of absurdity that some of the topics in the forum like remove revealed, give thief 6 utilities, make them steal the entire skillbar of an enemy have.

Also countering dagger pistol requires a pretty specific skill. You need to interrupt their leap with a ranged attack. I know other D/P’s can do it with headshot, and rangers can use SB 5. Guardians can push them out of the circle with shield 5 but tbh they prefer to save that for when the thief SR’s. Mesmer can use GS 5 (although that’s also better for pushing the thief outta SR), etc etc.

Thats only because daecollo generally seems to play thief and warrior

Also it doesnt need to be a ranged interupt for the HS stopping you just have to not stand in the field, melee attacks can reach nearly entirely across the field without standing in it.

Shadowskill.9852:

McFribble.2349:

ski.4927:

I also think that things like dodging, casting caltrops, casting other certain abilities, and stomping should all break stealth. But that’s just me. I am perfectly happy stealth staking people for now.

And once stealth gets buffed to keep a thief in stealth until attacking or hurt, then that will fly. Until then, we have 10 seconds of stealth max for one skill, and dramatically less for all others.

Yes, there are ways to cheese huge stealth times, just like how every class has some sort of mechanic they can cheese as well with a specific build.

And of coarse I’d add that while in stealth your doing NO damage. But everyone should know this by now. Stealth spammers contribute NOTHING, ZIP, ZERO.

In less your just trolling a group for the hell of it. At some point you will have to attack and get revealed.

That’s exactly my point. While in stealth, you aren’t doing anything. By knocking someone out of stealth for taking damage will basically mean a Thief in WvW will NEVER be able to stealth and sustain it. Just barely touching the mass of AoE being thrown everywhere will make sure of that.

Now, if a Thief could sustain stealth indefinitely until attacking or attacked, then they could safely get within melee range to attack by going AROUND the fight. But this isn’t going to happen, and neither will damage breaking stealth. Anet has put the Thief in a bad spot, and the GW2 community is clearly too…uninformed to know that stealth isn’t an EZWIN button. I honestly wish Anet would get rid of it, and redesign Thieves from the ground up. No matter how many times Thieves are QQnerfed, players will still be too “uninformed” to adapt to stealth as a mechanic without actually PLAYING the thief to see first hand how many drawbacks the class comes with.

Dasorine.1964:

Teamkiller.4315:

Thieves also never had Jon Peters come to their forum say “we know your class is the most in need of help” and then experience mostly nerfs for the 5 months after that.

Rangers lol

You know what? BM rangers (one of two viable builds) are even MORE 1v1 oriented and useless than thieves in group situations. They do gripe a lot but I’ve never EVER seen them posit suggestions to buff their class on the level of absurdity that some of the topics in the forum like remove revealed, give thief 6 utilities, make them steal the entire skillbar of an enemy have.

Also countering dagger pistol requires a pretty specific skill. You need to interrupt their leap with a ranged attack. I know other D/P’s can do it with headshot, and rangers can use SB 5. Guardians can push them out of the circle with shield 5 but tbh they prefer to save that for when the thief SR’s. Mesmer can use GS 5 (although that’s also better for pushing the thief outta SR), etc etc.

Thats only because daecollo generally seems to play thief and warrior

Also it doesnt need to be a ranged interupt for the HS stopping you just have to not stand in the field, melee attacks can reach nearly entirely across the field without standing in it.

true true true.

McFribble.2349:

Shadowskill.9852:

McFribble.2349:

ski.4927:

I also think that things like dodging, casting caltrops, casting other certain abilities, and stomping should all break stealth. But that’s just me. I am perfectly happy stealth staking people for now.

And once stealth gets buffed to keep a thief in stealth until attacking or hurt, then that will fly. Until then, we have 10 seconds of stealth max for one skill, and dramatically less for all others.

Yes, there are ways to cheese huge stealth times, just like how every class has some sort of mechanic they can cheese as well with a specific build.

And of coarse I’d add that while in stealth your doing NO damage. But everyone should know this by now. Stealth spammers contribute NOTHING, ZIP, ZERO.

In less your just trolling a group for the hell of it. At some point you will have to attack and get revealed.

That’s exactly my point. While in stealth, you aren’t doing anything. By knocking someone out of stealth for taking damage will basically mean a Thief in WvW will NEVER be able to stealth and sustain it. Just barely touching the mass of AoE being thrown everywhere will make sure of that.

Now, if a Thief could sustain stealth indefinitely until attacking or attacked, then they could safely get within melee range to attack by going AROUND the fight. But this isn’t going to happen, and neither will damage breaking stealth. Anet has put the Thief in a bad spot, and the GW2 community is clearly too…uninformed to know that stealth isn’t an EZWIN button. I honestly wish Anet would get rid of it, and redesign Thieves from the ground up. No matter how many times Thieves are QQnerfed, players will still be too “uninformed” to adapt to stealth as a mechanic without actually PLAYING the thief to see first hand how many drawbacks the class comes with.

this really is the problem. stealth is strong. its hard to dealth with@!
but just as strong as stealth is….our defense/hp is equally as weak.

Travlane.5948:

Shadowskill.9852:

Sebrent.3625:

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Here’s the problem with your “challenge”, travlane. You won’t be trying to actually fight them, you’ll be simply trying to “not die to make your point”.

If the point in this game was to run from people, Norn would be the most OP race in the game (Snow Leopard represent!).

---

@Dasorine: other classes can suffer from those very same latency/technical issues. However they are punished for wasting abilities when blind, dodged, blocked, etc.

---

I don’t think most thieves are OP … in fact, i think most are rubbish. However, I think their skill floor is ridiculously low (i.e. lowest in the game) due to the fact that they have “training wheels” built-in where they don’t follow the same risk/reward mechanics the 7 other classes in the game adhere to.

no…it wouldnt matter….if my opponent isnt invis im not on the offensive anymore. so not really sure how thats relevant. and dying.losing.gettingdowned is of irrelevance tot he challenge. the challenge is to see how many backstabs actually hit the back when a player enemy is good. hence nobody taking my challenge bc they realize they will seriously prove a point against their theories

Yes it would. When a thief goes stealth against me, yes, I’m reacting so I don’t eat a backstab. However, I’m also reacting so that I can smash him in the face for the limited time he’ll be visible.

There is a big difference there compared to simply trying to not get backstabbed.

thats exactly what im going to do. im going to react when u go stealth. so plz take my challenge so i can prove to the forums that BS isnt op and shouldnt be on reveal. TAKE MY CHALLENGE lol :
heres the rules:
everytime you exit stealth—=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you miss—————-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you get blocked-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you facestab——-=—————1 failed attempt

lets see if u can get more than 1/5 backstab tries successfull

Travlane.5948:

tell you what. i wont even use a mesmer to hide behind clones…i wont even use a guardian so i can block/aegis/pushback or l.o.w. lol….i wont even use an engineer to use turrets…..i could go on… bottom line bs is fine the way it is…its a l2 kitten ue

No, it’s not exactly what you’re going to do. You’re not going to try to hit them for the win. You’re going to “win” by simply not fighting and avoiding.

If you are honestly tricked by mesmer clones, here are some tips:

• Clones attack slower than the real Mesmer
• Clones don’t have an offhand weapon equipped
• Clones only use the auto-attack
• Clones will only move to get you back in range and the movement will be only what is required to do that
• Clones don’t have sigil stacks
• When the Mesmer is not 100% hp, their freshly summoned clones are still summoned with a bar showing 100% hp
• Calling target can only be countered by stealth (which Mesmers have a limited amount, if any, of that varies by build).
• Clones don’t have food buffs
• Clones don’t have the boons their Mesmer does
• The only signet that shows up on both the Mesmer and their clones is the Signet of Illusions

Despite all those things, I still think they are great … Thieves would gripe.

As shown by the video, guardian aegis won’t do a thing.

All melee classes have some trouble against a good engineer due to their plethora of CC abilities. It’s one of the beautiful things the engineer community has pulled out of their bag of tricks.

If a Thief is targeted then goes into stealth. The clones will still follow the Thief and and perform whatever action you sent them to do. I 1v1 mesmers pretty often in Yaks Bend and can confirm 100% this happens.

Those things are pretty much fire and forget.

i think you mean the follow you after you are revealed right? they dont really follow you “while invised” or is that what actually meant?

I mean that before going into stealth, the mesmer will send his clones (Mind Wack,etc). I’ll go stealth and they will still follow me WHILE in stealth (Then Shatter when hit). You have to be targeted before stealth for this to happen. I just dueled another mesmer this morning and it happened again.

Shadowskill.9852:

Travlane.5948:

Shadowskill.9852:

Sebrent.3625:

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Here’s the problem with your “challenge”, travlane. You won’t be trying to actually fight them, you’ll be simply trying to “not die to make your point”.

If the point in this game was to run from people, Norn would be the most OP race in the game (Snow Leopard represent!).

---

@Dasorine: other classes can suffer from those very same latency/technical issues. However they are punished for wasting abilities when blind, dodged, blocked, etc.

---

I don’t think most thieves are OP … in fact, i think most are rubbish. However, I think their skill floor is ridiculously low (i.e. lowest in the game) due to the fact that they have “training wheels” built-in where they don’t follow the same risk/reward mechanics the 7 other classes in the game adhere to.

no…it wouldnt matter….if my opponent isnt invis im not on the offensive anymore. so not really sure how thats relevant. and dying.losing.gettingdowned is of irrelevance tot he challenge. the challenge is to see how many backstabs actually hit the back when a player enemy is good. hence nobody taking my challenge bc they realize they will seriously prove a point against their theories

Yes it would. When a thief goes stealth against me, yes, I’m reacting so I don’t eat a backstab. However, I’m also reacting so that I can smash him in the face for the limited time he’ll be visible.

There is a big difference there compared to simply trying to not get backstabbed.

thats exactly what im going to do. im going to react when u go stealth. so plz take my challenge so i can prove to the forums that BS isnt op and shouldnt be on reveal. TAKE MY CHALLENGE lol :
heres the rules:
everytime you exit stealth—=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you miss—————-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you get blocked-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you facestab——-=—————1 failed attempt

lets see if u can get more than 1/5 backstab tries successfull

Travlane.5948:

tell you what. i wont even use a mesmer to hide behind clones…i wont even use a guardian so i can block/aegis/pushback or l.o.w. lol….i wont even use an engineer to use turrets…..i could go on… bottom line bs is fine the way it is…its a l2 kitten ue

No, it’s not exactly what you’re going to do. You’re not going to try to hit them for the win. You’re going to “win” by simply not fighting and avoiding.

If you are honestly tricked by mesmer clones, here are some tips:

• Clones attack slower than the real Mesmer
• Clones don’t have an offhand weapon equipped
• Clones only use the auto-attack
• Clones will only move to get you back in range and the movement will be only what is required to do that
• Clones don’t have sigil stacks
• When the Mesmer is not 100% hp, their freshly summoned clones are still summoned with a bar showing 100% hp
• Calling target can only be countered by stealth (which Mesmers have a limited amount, if any, of that varies by build).
• Clones don’t have food buffs
• Clones don’t have the boons their Mesmer does
• The only signet that shows up on both the Mesmer and their clones is the Signet of Illusions

Despite all those things, I still think they are great … Thieves would gripe.

As shown by the video, guardian aegis won’t do a thing.

All melee classes have some trouble against a good engineer due to their plethora of CC abilities. It’s one of the beautiful things the engineer community has pulled out of their bag of tricks.

If a Thief is targeted then goes into stealth. The clones will still follow the Thief and and perform whatever action you sent them to do. I 1v1 mesmers pretty often in Yaks Bend and can confirm 100% this happens.

Those things are pretty much fire and forget.

i think you mean the follow you after you are revealed right? they dont really follow you “while invised” or is that what actually meant?

I mean that before going into stealth, the mesmer will send his clones (Mind Wack,etc). I’ll go stealth and they will still follow me WHILE in stealth (Then Shatter when hit). You have to be targeted before stealth for this to happen. I just dueled another mesmer this morning and it happened again.

yeah, there are certain channeled abilities that follow a thief into stealth if they started before the thief stealthed. Volley, rapid fire, unload, illusionary unload, etc. There’s only one skill I know of that will target a thief in stealth AFTER the thief has stealthed, and that’s the guardian’s binding blade. I love it =]

yeah…they alwasy (including other classes) seem to fini-sh the last command/skill/attack as or before you go into stealth. usually 1 to 1.5 seconds after stealth everythign stop.s but its still enough time for a boom shatter :P i actually questioned my guild about this a while back and the mesmers said i was just seeing things lol

Sebrent.3625:

Here’s the problem with your “challenge”, travlane. You won’t be trying to actually fight them, you’ll be simply trying to “not die to make your point”.

If the point in this game was to run from people, Norn would be the most OP race in the game (Snow Leopard represent!).

---

@Dasorine: other classes can suffer from those very same latency/technical issues. However they are punished for wasting abilities when blind, dodged, blocked, etc.

---

I don’t think most thieves are OP … in fact, i think most are rubbish. However, I think their skill floor is ridiculously low (i.e. lowest in the game) due to the fact that they have “training wheels” built-in where they don’t follow the same risk/reward mechanics the 7 other classes in the game adhere to.

Absolutely not true… I play Ranger and Guardian also and in their current form you can be half asleep and they function just fine. The ranger in particular is remarkably easy to play well.

A fight in GW2 is about winning. The winner is the one that spikes his opponent.

As far as evidence, excuse me, but please look at all the videos of thieves hitting backstab left and right with more than 50% success rate. Even more than 75% success rate. Now, when they face someone like Osicat, no, they aren’t landing much but he isn’t landing shatters much either. That’s how the high level fights go. Both players are missing most of their attacks because their opponent is countering them with good play.

This leads to the issue I keep bringing up … good play doesn’t counter the backstab. If I use a Mesmer block while you’re stealthed and you’re smart, you’ll backstab my block, dodge (while stille stealthed) the strike that results from it (unless I’m a condition build because then it’s not worth the dodge), and then backstab again unless I dodge.

Now, if I Mind Wrack and you block/dodge it, I don’t get to immediately Mind Wrack again … not even if I dodge first ;-)

Also, I’m not going to “take your challenge” simply because of the reason I stated before… you don’t test something involving people by using people with bias as the test subjects. That’d be like doing a taste test when you have one person in love with one of the chefs or getting paid if they pick a certain chef over the other. Test subjects should not have bias when testing something.

This is why the plethora of videos already on the subject already serve as better material than your “challenge”.

I think his point is if you are doing nothing but using everything you have to counter backstab then that doesn’t prove backstabs effectiveness or lack thereof. In a real fight you will be trying to kill the thief while he has ample resources to restealth and try to get his big damage hit off after getting you out of position.

Backstab isn’t the only thing you should be doing in a fight. Getting someone out of position or on the offensive then turning their effort against them to gain position to backstab is how I use it.

If your fail rate is so high then you’re probably trying to end a fight in a single combo or just plain old spamming backstab too much.

ok if i have 500 1 v 1 fights and only 15 of those fights are of backstab being used extremely well…… if the video is cut it wont count as “evidence” kind of obvious right? lol
ok that aside. bias is needed so they try harder here. he wants to prove me wrong so hes not gonig to swing BS wildly and gamble on a successful hit. normall a thief just kinda gets close and hopes for the best. in this case *(with bias to prove me wrong) they wont whicfh actually increases there sucess rate. wanna get an unbiased player not playing as hard? sure ill just help my side tho and thats not fair. point is that against a decent to good player the success rate for BS per try is quite low. im will to bet 25% or less aginast a good player. it much be high against an upscale or nub and prolly ballances out to 50% overall…however thats a l2 kitten ue where the could get it down much more. i honestly…on my sould…cannot remember the last time i got backstabbed……have i been in the last week? eh …probably but i dont remember it bc its so rare or may not have happened.

ill make a plethora of me missing backstabs(actually trying) and only put those in my video….will that counter another video only showing clips of success? of course not. cmon thats a silly thing to say

[quote=1995079;YourOwnFear.2743:]

@yOURownfear

OH OH OH! now i get it ok. no no no…ill set up and trait my usually build and try to kill…i wont run like all blocks or all dodges…it will be mixed and a normal kill build. i get what you mean. but even if i did use all anti bs skills…..add 20% to your end result to counter that fact and it will still be under 45%. but yeah ig et what you mean. if i only use anti backstabs skills/traits/utilities your % is around 5% :P

YourOwnFear.2743:

I think his point is if you are doing nothing but using everything you have to counter backstab then that doesn’t prove backstabs effectiveness or lack thereof.

Well, I bring up a new point. If a thieve is changes to be revealed on a failed backstab attempt, what is stopping people from doing everything in their power to counter backstab by avoiding it at all costs (like people SHOULD be doing now), rendering the Thief completely useless?

McFribble.2349:

YourOwnFear.2743:

I think his point is if you are doing nothing but using everything you have to counter backstab then that doesn’t prove backstabs effectiveness or lack thereof.

Well, I bring up a new point. If a thieve is changes to be revealed on a failed backstab attempt, what is stopping people from doing everything in their power to counter backstab by avoiding it at all costs (like people SHOULD be doing now), rendering the Thief completely useless?

Just like stunbreakers render bull rush useless?

If you’ve ever fought a good warrior, you’ll know that he has more disables than you have snare/stunbreakers. And he’s going to wait for you to waste them all before he sets up on you.

So what does a thief do?

Anyways, I don’t think missing a backstab should apply revealed. Maybe take them out of stealth, but boost backstab damage in compensation.

McFribble.2349:

YourOwnFear.2743:

I think his point is if you are doing nothing but using everything you have to counter backstab then that doesn’t prove backstabs effectiveness or lack thereof.

Well, I bring up a new point. If a thieve is changes to be revealed on a failed backstab attempt, what is stopping people from doing everything in their power to counter backstab by avoiding it at all costs (like people SHOULD be doing now), rendering the Thief completely useless?

If missing a single skill makes a class completely useless, then there is a massive issue in the design of the class. I personally don’t believe that’s the case though as I don’t even use backstab on my thief. I found tactical strike to be much better the times I don’t land it I’m still fine.

People do do quite a bit to counter backstab already, however, why is it they have to do so much more to evade an invisible attack when every other attack in the game is countered by a single block, dodge, etc. ??? Why does my block canceling your backstab not prevent me from being backstabbed while it prevents a warrior’s burst skill, a mesmer’s shatter, a ranger’s opening strike, etc.

You know what would be a far better suggestion…. not allowing backstab to be blocked or evaded. Seems like a far more reasonable solution to this problem.

Funny I seem to avoid getting BS all the time. I must have 2 eyes and 2 hands or something.